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[OCE Hosting] Why using Singapore as OCE Server Location is Suboptimal

DavlosDavlos Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
in General Discussion
Exec Summary

To clear the air on where OCE servers are planned to be hosted, it's in Singapore. Precedent was set in Apocalypse, and questions to IS have resulted in the same: there is no intent to change the plan of hosting OCE at Singapore.

The stated reason in the past is that pings from Sydney to Singapore ranged between 95-110ms, which was considered acceptable for MMORPG gameplay.

Problems

There are two problems with this plan:

Problem #1 Packet traffic from Australia to Asia is frequently routed to the US before reaching Asia despite server providers' and ISPs' claims to the contrary, resulting in >220ms latency

Methodology: I selected 4 game servers at random which are hosted in Sydney, and I conduct a trace route test from Singapore.

Test 1:

Tracing route to ns564480.ip-139-99-144.net [139.99.144.195]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms RT-AC5300-6C70 [192.168.1.1]
2 9 ms 9 ms 4 ms 1.128.104.27.unknown.m1.com.sg [27.104.128.1]
3 4 ms 4 ms 4 ms 182.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.182]
4 5 ms 15 ms 5 ms 181.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.181]
5 5 ms 19 ms 6 ms 38.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.38]
6 5 ms 5 ms 8 ms 162.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.162]
7 5 ms 5 ms 5 ms ovh.sgix.sg [103.16.102.120]
8 * * * Request timed out.
9 * * * Request timed out.
10 * * * Request timed out.
11 * * * Request timed out.
12 222 ms 222 ms 222 ms syd-sy2-bb1-a9.au.asia.ovhcloud.com [103.5.15.27]
13 238 ms 222 ms 222 ms syd1-sy2-g1-nc5.au.asia.ovhcloud.com [103.5.14.221]
14 * * * Request timed out.
15 * * * Request timed out.
16 * * * Request timed out.
17 232 ms 222 ms 221 ms ns564480.ip-139-99-144.net [139.99.144.195]

Test 2:

Tracing route to 103.137.12.2 over a maximum of 30 hops

1 1 ms 2 ms 2 ms RT-AC5300-6C70 [192.168.1.1]
2 4 ms 7 ms 4 ms 1.128.104.27.unknown.m1.com.sg [27.104.128.1]
3 6 ms 13 ms 4 ms 182.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.182]
4 5 ms 15 ms 5 ms 181.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.181]
5 5 ms 6 ms 16 ms 134.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.134]
6 5 ms 5 ms 5 ms 137409.sgw.equinix.com [27.111.229.213]
7 6 ms 20 ms 16 ms te1.bdr1.sg1.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.194]
8 52 ms 51 ms 51 ms perth.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.145]
9 78 ms 78 ms 78 ms adelaide.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.218]
10 88 ms 87 ms 87 ms melbourne.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.212]
11 108 ms 97 ms 98 ms sydney.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.100]
12 110 ms 109 ms 109 ms 103.137.13.70
13 119 ms 109 ms 119 ms 103.137.12.2

Test 3:

Tracing route to ds07-syd02.strayagaming.com [103.212.227.76]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 1 ms 1 ms 2 ms RT-AC5300-6C70 [192.168.1.1]
2 8 ms 6 ms 9 ms 1.128.104.27.unknown.m1.com.sg [27.104.128.1]
3 4 ms 4 ms 4 ms 182.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.182]
4 15 ms 6 ms 6 ms 181.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.181]
5 5 ms 5 ms 5 ms 221.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.221]
6 4 ms 5 ms 5 ms 137409.sgw.equinix.com [27.111.229.213]
7 5 ms 5 ms 5 ms te1.bdr1.sg1.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.194]
8 51 ms 51 ms 51 ms perth.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.145]
9 78 ms 78 ms 88 ms adelaide.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.218]
10 98 ms 87 ms 86 ms melbourne.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.212]
11 109 ms 98 ms 98 ms sydney.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.100]
12 98 ms 98 ms 98 ms 10.255.255.6
13 * * * Request timed out.
14 * * * Request timed out.
15 * * * Request timed out.
16 * * * Request timed out.
17 * * * Request timed out.
18 * * * Request timed out.
19 * * * Request timed out.
20 * * * Request timed out.
21 * * * Request timed out.
22 * * * Request timed out.
23 * * * Request timed out.
24 * * * Request timed out.
25 * * * Request timed out.
26 * * * Request timed out.
27 * * * Request timed out.
28 * * * Request timed out.
29 * * * Request timed out.
30 * * * Request timed out.

Test 4:

Tracing route to ns549511.ip-139-99-145.net [139.99.145.105]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 3 ms 13 ms 1 ms RT-AC5300-6C70 [192.168.1.1]
2 8 ms 10 ms 6 ms 1.128.104.27.unknown.m1.com.sg [27.104.128.1]
3 4 ms 4 ms 4 ms 182.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.182]
4 5 ms 15 ms 14 ms 181.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.181]
5 5 ms 5 ms 5 ms 38.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.38]
6 16 ms 5 ms 5 ms 162.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.162]
7 6 ms * 5 ms ovh.sgix.sg [103.16.102.120]
8 * * * Request timed out.
9 * * * Request timed out.
10 * * * Request timed out.
11 * * * Request timed out.
12 222 ms 222 ms 223 ms syd-sy2-bb1-a9.au.asia.ovhcloud.com [103.5.15.27]
13 226 ms 224 ms 222 ms syd1-sy2-g1-nc5.au.asia.ovhcloud.com [103.5.14.221]
14 * * * Request timed out.
15 * * * Request timed out.
16 * * * Request timed out.
17 224 ms 224 ms 224 ms ns549511.ip-139-99-145.net [139.99.145.105]

Out of 4 tests, only Test 2 reported a route which reported 119ms, which is well within the acceptable range of latency for MMORPG play. Test 3 would have reported a similar latency due to similarity of Test 2's route, but timed out. Tests 1 & 4 were 222 and 224ms latency respectively, where packets went through syd-sy2-bb1-a9.au.asia.ovhcloud.com, which is a US packet clearing house.

Problem #2 Assuming Problem #1 does not exist or is resolved, New Zealand's gamers are severely impacted by latency to Singapore.

For the sake of argument, should latency to Singapore from the Australian mainland be consistent on a 90-120ms scale, it still does not address NZ gamers' pain points.

Test 1:

Tracing route to ns562707.ip-139-99-208.net [139.99.208.101]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms RT-AC5300-6C70 [192.168.1.1]
2 11 ms 20 ms 32 ms 1.128.104.27.unknown.m1.com.sg [27.104.128.1]
3 5 ms 4 ms 4 ms 182.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.182]
4 5 ms 5 ms 5 ms 181.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.181]
5 16 ms 5 ms 5 ms 38.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.38]
6 5 ms 6 ms 5 ms 162.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.162]
7 * * 5 ms ovh.sgix.sg [103.16.102.120]
8 * * * Request timed out.
9 * * * Request timed out.
10 * * * Request timed out.
11 * * * Request timed out.
12 221 ms 222 ms 233 ms syd-sy2-bb1-a9.au.asia.ovhcloud.com [103.5.15.27]
13 222 ms 222 ms 222 ms syd1-sy2-g1-nc5.au.asia.ovhcloud.com [103.5.14.221]
14 * * * Request timed out.
15 * * * Request timed out.
16 * * * Request timed out.
17 * * * Request timed out.
18 222 ms 222 ms 233 ms ns562707.ip-139-99-208.net [139.99.208.101]

Test 2:

Tracing route to minecraft.geek.nz [121.99.101.187]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 1 ms 1 ms 12 ms RT-AC5300-6C70 [192.168.1.1]
2 6 ms 7 ms 17 ms 1.128.104.27.unknown.m1.com.sg [27.104.128.1]
3 16 ms 4 ms 4 ms 182.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.182]
4 5 ms 5 ms 5 ms 181.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.181]
5 19 ms 5 ms 9 ms 134.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.134]
6 27 ms 15 ms 7 ms 103.231.152.31
7 95 ms 96 ms 110 ms be100.cor01.per04.wa.vocus.network [114.31.206.50]
8 * * * Request timed out.
9 * * * Request timed out.
10 * * * Request timed out.
11 96 ms 107 ms 96 ms be100.bdr02.syd03.nsw.vocus.network [114.31.192.39]
12 130 ms 119 ms 120 ms ip-17.103.45.175.VOCUS.net.au [175.45.103.17]
13 * * * Request timed out.
14 * * * Request timed out.
15 123 ms 121 ms 121 ms default-rdns.vocus.co.nz [121.99.101.187]

Test 3:

Tracing route to ns569131.ip-139-99-210.net [139.99.210.83]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 1 ms 1 ms 3 ms RT-AC5300-6C70 [192.168.1.1]
2 4 ms 21 ms 7 ms 1.128.104.27.unknown.m1.com.sg [27.104.128.1]
3 15 ms 4 ms 4 ms 182.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.182]
4 6 ms 5 ms 5 ms 181.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.181]
5 13 ms 5 ms 19 ms 38.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.38]
6 6 ms 5 ms 5 ms 162.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.162]
7 6 ms 16 ms 6 ms ovh.sgix.sg [103.16.102.120]
8 * * * Request timed out.
9 * * * Request timed out.
10 * * * Request timed out.
11 * * * Request timed out.
12 222 ms 233 ms 237 ms syd-sy2-bb1-a9.au.asia.ovhcloud.com [103.5.15.27]
13 223 ms 222 ms 223 ms syd1-sy2-g1-nc5.au.asia.ovhcloud.com [103.5.14.221]
14 * * * Request timed out.
15 * * * Request timed out.
16 * * * Request timed out.
17 * * * Request timed out.
18 224 ms 224 ms 225 ms ns569131.ip-139-99-210.net [139.99.210.83]

Test 4:

Tracing route to 114.23.101.185 over a maximum of 30 hops

1 1 ms 1 ms 2 ms RT-AC5300-6C70 [192.168.1.1]
2 17 ms 5 ms 5 ms 1.128.104.27.unknown.m1.com.sg [27.104.128.1]
3 4 ms 14 ms 4 ms 182.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.182]
4 5 ms 10 ms 5 ms 181.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.181]
5 25 ms 5 ms 5 ms 134.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.134]
6 24 ms 6 ms 5 ms 103.231.152.31
7 119 ms 130 ms 134 ms be100.cor01.per04.wa.vocus.network [114.31.206.50]
8 * * * Request timed out.
9 * * * Request timed out.
10 * * * Request timed out.
11 120 ms 131 ms 120 ms be201.cor01.alb01.akl.nz.vocus.network [114.31.202.52]
12 120 ms 119 ms 119 ms be50.cor01.akl05.akl.nz.vocus.network [114.31.202.87]
13 131 ms 131 ms 131 ms be100.bdr03.akl05.akl.nz.vocus.network [114.31.202.35]
14 119 ms 119 ms 119 ms static-14.75.255.49.in-addr.VOCUS.net.au [49.255.75.14]
15 123 ms 120 ms 120 ms xe-1-0-0-0.cr1.qst.vygr.net [114.23.0.178]
16 135 ms 146 ms 135 ms xe-0-0-1-0.cr2.per.vygr.net [114.23.16.242]
17 136 ms 136 ms 137 ms xe-1-3-1-0.cr1.chc.vygr.net [114.23.16.249]
18 135 ms 135 ms 135 ms lag-1-377.br1.chc.vygr.net [114.23.15.227]
19 137 ms 137 ms 137 ms 114.23.101.185

Out of 4 tests to New Zealand servers, Test 2 was well within the 'acceptable' range of 121ms. Test 4 is tolerable. Tests 1 & 3 fail at 222ms and 225ms respectively.

Proposed Solution

IS, please don't leave your OCE gamers in the lurch. Yes, I reside in Singapore and gain from the 1-5ms latency environment, but as an esports tournament organizer in the past who has tried to include OCE gamers, this packet routing issue has been a constant problem in the last 20 years. The Aussie server providers are going to sell you all kinds of pitches which may not apply in real-world conditions. When this game was pitched on Kickstarter, OCE server support was promised, and I believe OCE gamers who believe in this project are owed a decent level of support.

Please consider setting up a OCE-specific cluster at Sydney, which can serve the Australian and NZ region without gamers having to deal with their notoriously awful and uncooperative ISPs in improving routing to Asia.

Thank you.
«1

Comments

  • NHKNHK Member, Alpha Two
    +1 For hosting in Australia/NZ
  • LexLex Member, Phoenix Initiative, Avatar of the Phoenix, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2020
    Proposed Solution

    IS, please don't leave your OCE gamers in the lurch. Yes, I reside in Singapore and gain from the 1-5ms latency environment, but as an esports tournament organizer in the past who has tried to include OCE gamers, this packet routing issue has been a constant problem in the last 20 years. The Aussie server providers are going to sell you all kinds of pitches which may not apply in real-world conditions. When this game was pitched on Kickstarter, OCE server support was promised, and I believe OCE gamers who believe in this project are owed a decent level of support.

    Please consider setting up a OCE-specific cluster at Sydney, which can serve the Australian and NZ region without gamers having to deal with their notoriously awful and uncooperative ISPs in improving routing to Asia.

    Thank you.

    I'm with @Davlos 100% on this one. OCE has a very large MMO community, as evidenced by the large numbers on classic Wow servers as an example, and I think we are deserving of more centralized servers, rather than hosting servers in an entirely different region (SEA) that is not only geographically and socially distant, but also in terms of internet routing.
    fe85sq6n7wyu.png
  • CarthCarth Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    +1 to this, especially for those of us even further south, from Melbourne or Adelaide, it adds another 20-30ms as we route through Sydney before going on this ridiculous round-the-world trip.
    Sydney-based servers are the only way anyone from Australia are going to be able to play this game properly.
  • JahlonJahlon Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Singapore is not OCE its SEA. It would be where the SEA server is, and it might be where the conjoined SEA/OCE server is. It may not. The OCE servers may go in Syndey since that is where the AWS datacenter is

    It all depends if they put a dedicated server in for the OCE audience, which I imagine they will. Probably 1.
    hpsmlCJ.jpg
    Make sure to check out Ashes 101
    Ashes 101 on YouTube
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2020
    Using Black Desert Online as an example.
    In the last 7 days the player base distribution has been as follows:
    https://gamstat.com/games/Black_Desert/

    49 % North America
    1.1 % Central & South America
    26 % Western & Northern Europe
    3 % Eastern & Southern Europe
    18 % Asia
    1.1 % Middle East
    1.8 % Australia & New Zealand
    0.1 %South Africa

    I see no reason to believe Ashes`s popularity ends up with a dramatically different distribution.
    But the results perhaps with BDO are further depleted with 11% Japan, 1.4% South Korea and others on separate servers.

    Having played on NA servers regardless of own location for many years across multiple MMORPG`s, my only thoughts are servers with low population, be that because region specific server or just non-peak play time make play time not as enjoyable, great connection or not.

    All for high population servers that at low time are still solid active communities.

    With L2 at 2,000-2,500 player cap (or what ever it was) meant about 400-700 at peak and 20-50 at non-peak worst. I really do not want to see that kind of scenario again. More servers more diluting the player base.

    I commend the current target for such high numbers on a server.

  • VarkunVarkun Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    +1 again
    I know that Steven has been very non committal on this. One of the selling points to my guild mates initially was OCE servers but it seems they will be OCE servers in name only.
    3KAqRIf.png
    Never write a check with your mouth you can't cash with your ass!.
  • StevenSharifStevenSharif Member, Avatar of the Phoenix, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    The likelihood is very high for Sydney or Melbourne based OCE servers. A large contingency here is the size of the OCE population as we approach launch.
  • VarkunVarkun Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I know I will be doing my utmost to get as many old guild mates and friends interested in playing as I can and there is a good amount of interest there.
    I just hope we can get the numbers Australia did put up quite a good showing in the original KS.

    Thank you for the reply Steven.
    3KAqRIf.png
    Never write a check with your mouth you can't cash with your ass!.
  • LexLex Member, Phoenix Initiative, Avatar of the Phoenix, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    akabear wrote: »
    Having played on NA servers regardless of own location for many years across multiple MMORPG`s, my only thoughts are servers with low population, be that because region specific server or just non-peak play time make play time not as enjoyable, great connection or not.

    The Arugal OCE server is the third highest population server in wow classic in the last week. The server is physically located in Sydney, which is optimal for most OCE gamers from a routing perspective.

    unknown.png
    StevenSharif wrote: »
    The likelihood is very high for Sydney or Melbourne based OCE servers. A large contingency here is the size of the OCE population as we approach launch.

    Glad to see that Sydney or Melbourne based OCE servers are still on the radar.
    fe85sq6n7wyu.png
  • KaielogyKaielogy Member
    I believe Singapore is the best spot in the middle for both OCE and SEA players getting a good average ping
    Sign up using my referral link! https://ashesofcreation.com/r/UIT3DTKQYRXWQJXR

    South East Asia/Oceania server discord: https://discord.gg/J4Epj77

  • AardvarkAardvark Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Davlos wrote: »
    Exec Summary

    To clear the air on where OCE servers are planned to be hosted, it's in Singapore. Precedent was set in Apocalypse, and questions to IS have resulted in the same: there is no intent to change the plan of hosting OCE at Singapore.

    The stated reason in the past is that pings from Sydney to Singapore ranged between 95-110ms, which was considered acceptable for MMORPG gameplay.

    Problems

    There are two problems with this plan:

    Problem #1 Packet traffic from Australia to Asia is frequently routed to the US before reaching Asia despite server providers' and ISPs' claims to the contrary, resulting in >220ms latency

    Methodology: I selected 4 game servers at random which are hosted in Sydney, and I conduct a trace route test from Singapore.

    Test 1:

    Tracing route to ns564480.ip-139-99-144.net [139.99.144.195]
    over a maximum of 30 hops:

    1 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms RT-AC5300-6C70 [192.168.1.1]
    2 9 ms 9 ms 4 ms 1.128.104.27.unknown.m1.com.sg [27.104.128.1]
    3 4 ms 4 ms 4 ms 182.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.182]
    4 5 ms 15 ms 5 ms 181.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.181]
    5 5 ms 19 ms 6 ms 38.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.38]
    6 5 ms 5 ms 8 ms 162.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.162]
    7 5 ms 5 ms 5 ms ovh.sgix.sg [103.16.102.120]
    8 * * * Request timed out.
    9 * * * Request timed out.
    10 * * * Request timed out.
    11 * * * Request timed out.
    12 222 ms 222 ms 222 ms syd-sy2-bb1-a9.au.asia.ovhcloud.com [103.5.15.27]
    13 238 ms 222 ms 222 ms syd1-sy2-g1-nc5.au.asia.ovhcloud.com [103.5.14.221]
    14 * * * Request timed out.
    15 * * * Request timed out.
    16 * * * Request timed out.
    17 232 ms 222 ms 221 ms ns564480.ip-139-99-144.net [139.99.144.195]

    Test 2:

    Tracing route to 103.137.12.2 over a maximum of 30 hops

    1 1 ms 2 ms 2 ms RT-AC5300-6C70 [192.168.1.1]
    2 4 ms 7 ms 4 ms 1.128.104.27.unknown.m1.com.sg [27.104.128.1]
    3 6 ms 13 ms 4 ms 182.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.182]
    4 5 ms 15 ms 5 ms 181.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.181]
    5 5 ms 6 ms 16 ms 134.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.134]
    6 5 ms 5 ms 5 ms 137409.sgw.equinix.com [27.111.229.213]
    7 6 ms 20 ms 16 ms te1.bdr1.sg1.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.194]
    8 52 ms 51 ms 51 ms perth.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.145]
    9 78 ms 78 ms 78 ms adelaide.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.218]
    10 88 ms 87 ms 87 ms melbourne.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.212]
    11 108 ms 97 ms 98 ms sydney.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.100]
    12 110 ms 109 ms 109 ms 103.137.13.70
    13 119 ms 109 ms 119 ms 103.137.12.2

    Test 3:

    Tracing route to ds07-syd02.strayagaming.com [103.212.227.76]
    over a maximum of 30 hops:

    1 1 ms 1 ms 2 ms RT-AC5300-6C70 [192.168.1.1]
    2 8 ms 6 ms 9 ms 1.128.104.27.unknown.m1.com.sg [27.104.128.1]
    3 4 ms 4 ms 4 ms 182.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.182]
    4 15 ms 6 ms 6 ms 181.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.181]
    5 5 ms 5 ms 5 ms 221.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.221]
    6 4 ms 5 ms 5 ms 137409.sgw.equinix.com [27.111.229.213]
    7 5 ms 5 ms 5 ms te1.bdr1.sg1.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.194]
    8 51 ms 51 ms 51 ms perth.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.145]
    9 78 ms 78 ms 88 ms adelaide.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.218]
    10 98 ms 87 ms 86 ms melbourne.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.212]
    11 109 ms 98 ms 98 ms sydney.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.100]
    12 98 ms 98 ms 98 ms 10.255.255.6
    13 * * * Request timed out.
    14 * * * Request timed out.
    15 * * * Request timed out.
    16 * * * Request timed out.
    17 * * * Request timed out.
    18 * * * Request timed out.
    19 * * * Request timed out.
    20 * * * Request timed out.
    21 * * * Request timed out.
    22 * * * Request timed out.
    23 * * * Request timed out.
    24 * * * Request timed out.
    25 * * * Request timed out.
    26 * * * Request timed out.
    27 * * * Request timed out.
    28 * * * Request timed out.
    29 * * * Request timed out.
    30 * * * Request timed out.

    Test 4:

    Tracing route to ns549511.ip-139-99-145.net [139.99.145.105]
    over a maximum of 30 hops:

    1 3 ms 13 ms 1 ms RT-AC5300-6C70 [192.168.1.1]
    2 8 ms 10 ms 6 ms 1.128.104.27.unknown.m1.com.sg [27.104.128.1]
    3 4 ms 4 ms 4 ms 182.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.182]
    4 5 ms 15 ms 14 ms 181.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.181]
    5 5 ms 5 ms 5 ms 38.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.38]
    6 16 ms 5 ms 5 ms 162.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.162]
    7 6 ms * 5 ms ovh.sgix.sg [103.16.102.120]
    8 * * * Request timed out.
    9 * * * Request timed out.
    10 * * * Request timed out.
    11 * * * Request timed out.
    12 222 ms 222 ms 223 ms syd-sy2-bb1-a9.au.asia.ovhcloud.com [103.5.15.27]
    13 226 ms 224 ms 222 ms syd1-sy2-g1-nc5.au.asia.ovhcloud.com [103.5.14.221]
    14 * * * Request timed out.
    15 * * * Request timed out.
    16 * * * Request timed out.
    17 224 ms 224 ms 224 ms ns549511.ip-139-99-145.net [139.99.145.105]

    Out of 4 tests, only Test 2 reported a route which reported 119ms, which is well within the acceptable range of latency for MMORPG play. Test 3 would have reported a similar latency due to similarity of Test 2's route, but timed out. Tests 1 & 4 were 222 and 224ms latency respectively, where packets went through syd-sy2-bb1-a9.au.asia.ovhcloud.com, which is a US packet clearing house.

    Problem #2 Assuming Problem #1 does not exist or is resolved, New Zealand's gamers are severely impacted by latency to Singapore.

    For the sake of argument, should latency to Singapore from the Australian mainland be consistent on a 90-120ms scale, it still does not address NZ gamers' pain points.

    Test 1:

    Tracing route to ns562707.ip-139-99-208.net [139.99.208.101]
    over a maximum of 30 hops:

    1 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms RT-AC5300-6C70 [192.168.1.1]
    2 11 ms 20 ms 32 ms 1.128.104.27.unknown.m1.com.sg [27.104.128.1]
    3 5 ms 4 ms 4 ms 182.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.182]
    4 5 ms 5 ms 5 ms 181.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.181]
    5 16 ms 5 ms 5 ms 38.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.38]
    6 5 ms 6 ms 5 ms 162.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.162]
    7 * * 5 ms ovh.sgix.sg [103.16.102.120]
    8 * * * Request timed out.
    9 * * * Request timed out.
    10 * * * Request timed out.
    11 * * * Request timed out.
    12 221 ms 222 ms 233 ms syd-sy2-bb1-a9.au.asia.ovhcloud.com [103.5.15.27]
    13 222 ms 222 ms 222 ms syd1-sy2-g1-nc5.au.asia.ovhcloud.com [103.5.14.221]
    14 * * * Request timed out.
    15 * * * Request timed out.
    16 * * * Request timed out.
    17 * * * Request timed out.
    18 222 ms 222 ms 233 ms ns562707.ip-139-99-208.net [139.99.208.101]

    Test 2:

    Tracing route to minecraft.geek.nz [121.99.101.187]
    over a maximum of 30 hops:

    1 1 ms 1 ms 12 ms RT-AC5300-6C70 [192.168.1.1]
    2 6 ms 7 ms 17 ms 1.128.104.27.unknown.m1.com.sg [27.104.128.1]
    3 16 ms 4 ms 4 ms 182.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.182]
    4 5 ms 5 ms 5 ms 181.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.181]
    5 19 ms 5 ms 9 ms 134.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.134]
    6 27 ms 15 ms 7 ms 103.231.152.31
    7 95 ms 96 ms 110 ms be100.cor01.per04.wa.vocus.network [114.31.206.50]
    8 * * * Request timed out.
    9 * * * Request timed out.
    10 * * * Request timed out.
    11 96 ms 107 ms 96 ms be100.bdr02.syd03.nsw.vocus.network [114.31.192.39]
    12 130 ms 119 ms 120 ms ip-17.103.45.175.VOCUS.net.au [175.45.103.17]
    13 * * * Request timed out.
    14 * * * Request timed out.
    15 123 ms 121 ms 121 ms default-rdns.vocus.co.nz [121.99.101.187]

    Test 3:

    Tracing route to ns569131.ip-139-99-210.net [139.99.210.83]
    over a maximum of 30 hops:

    1 1 ms 1 ms 3 ms RT-AC5300-6C70 [192.168.1.1]
    2 4 ms 21 ms 7 ms 1.128.104.27.unknown.m1.com.sg [27.104.128.1]
    3 15 ms 4 ms 4 ms 182.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.182]
    4 6 ms 5 ms 5 ms 181.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.181]
    5 13 ms 5 ms 19 ms 38.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.38]
    6 6 ms 5 ms 5 ms 162.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.162]
    7 6 ms 16 ms 6 ms ovh.sgix.sg [103.16.102.120]
    8 * * * Request timed out.
    9 * * * Request timed out.
    10 * * * Request timed out.
    11 * * * Request timed out.
    12 222 ms 233 ms 237 ms syd-sy2-bb1-a9.au.asia.ovhcloud.com [103.5.15.27]
    13 223 ms 222 ms 223 ms syd1-sy2-g1-nc5.au.asia.ovhcloud.com [103.5.14.221]
    14 * * * Request timed out.
    15 * * * Request timed out.
    16 * * * Request timed out.
    17 * * * Request timed out.
    18 224 ms 224 ms 225 ms ns569131.ip-139-99-210.net [139.99.210.83]

    Test 4:

    Tracing route to 114.23.101.185 over a maximum of 30 hops

    1 1 ms 1 ms 2 ms RT-AC5300-6C70 [192.168.1.1]
    2 17 ms 5 ms 5 ms 1.128.104.27.unknown.m1.com.sg [27.104.128.1]
    3 4 ms 14 ms 4 ms 182.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.182]
    4 5 ms 10 ms 5 ms 181.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.181]
    5 25 ms 5 ms 5 ms 134.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.134]
    6 24 ms 6 ms 5 ms 103.231.152.31
    7 119 ms 130 ms 134 ms be100.cor01.per04.wa.vocus.network [114.31.206.50]
    8 * * * Request timed out.
    9 * * * Request timed out.
    10 * * * Request timed out.
    11 120 ms 131 ms 120 ms be201.cor01.alb01.akl.nz.vocus.network [114.31.202.52]
    12 120 ms 119 ms 119 ms be50.cor01.akl05.akl.nz.vocus.network [114.31.202.87]
    13 131 ms 131 ms 131 ms be100.bdr03.akl05.akl.nz.vocus.network [114.31.202.35]
    14 119 ms 119 ms 119 ms static-14.75.255.49.in-addr.VOCUS.net.au [49.255.75.14]
    15 123 ms 120 ms 120 ms xe-1-0-0-0.cr1.qst.vygr.net [114.23.0.178]
    16 135 ms 146 ms 135 ms xe-0-0-1-0.cr2.per.vygr.net [114.23.16.242]
    17 136 ms 136 ms 137 ms xe-1-3-1-0.cr1.chc.vygr.net [114.23.16.249]
    18 135 ms 135 ms 135 ms lag-1-377.br1.chc.vygr.net [114.23.15.227]
    19 137 ms 137 ms 137 ms 114.23.101.185

    Out of 4 tests to New Zealand servers, Test 2 was well within the 'acceptable' range of 121ms. Test 4 is tolerable. Tests 1 & 3 fail at 222ms and 225ms respectively.

    Proposed Solution

    IS, please don't leave your OCE gamers in the lurch. Yes, I reside in Singapore and gain from the 1-5ms latency environment, but as an esports tournament organizer in the past who has tried to include OCE gamers, this packet routing issue has been a constant problem in the last 20 years. The Aussie server providers are going to sell you all kinds of pitches which may not apply in real-world conditions. When this game was pitched on Kickstarter, OCE server support was promised, and I believe OCE gamers who believe in this project are owed a decent level of support.

    Please consider setting up a OCE-specific cluster at Sydney, which can serve the Australian and NZ region without gamers having to deal with their notoriously awful and uncooperative ISPs in improving routing to Asia.

    Thank you.

    Are you sure all ISPs there take that around the world approach to get there? Maybe its just the 1 ISP you have that did something stupid in there routing table?
  • Drizzle123Drizzle123 Member
    Would be very happy with an OCE server in Aus. Recently in Aus AoC has been talk of the town for MMORPG players.

    I know plenty of games here in Australia that we have either had to wait or just completely stop playing because of ping issues. Games such as Dragons Nest, ArcheAge and Aion.

    I hope you give the Aussie Market a chance, thank you 😊
  • tugowartugowar Member, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2020
    Texas has a higher population than Australia plus New Zealand, so Texas servers when?

    Virtue is the only good.
  • LexLex Member, Phoenix Initiative, Avatar of the Phoenix, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    tugowar wrote: »
    Texas has a higher population than Australia plus New Zealand, so Texas servers when?

    By that reasoning China and Indian servers should come before US.
    fe85sq6n7wyu.png
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Lex wrote: »
    tugowar wrote: »
    Texas has a higher population than Australia plus New Zealand, so Texas servers when?

    By that reasoning China and Indian servers should come before US.

    Can we count old empires?
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • SittingDuckSittingDuck Member
    +1 for Sydney servers
  • LexLex Member, Phoenix Initiative, Avatar of the Phoenix, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Aardvark wrote: »
    Are you sure all ISPs there take that around the world approach to get there? Maybe its just the 1 ISP you have that did something stupid in there routing table?

    That is an overly simplified view of the problem. The reality of internet routing in the Pacific area is related to peering agreements between providers. The vast majority of undersea cable bandwidth is directly to the US west coast.

    unknown.png

    Due to these peering agreements, OCE traffic is often routed in that direction during peak periods, especially from eastern parts of Australia and New Zealand. Because of that, Singapore is definitely not a mid point between OCE and SEA regions. From where I am in NZ I regularly get 600-800ms pings to Singapore due to routes taken through the US west-coast and Japan.
    fe85sq6n7wyu.png
  • FelautumnFelautumn Member
    edited July 2020
    For me to take this game seriously, it would need to have servers in Sydney, which still provides me with a 30 ping approx, from where I live in Australia but also provide for New Zealand too.

    I used to enjoy occasional casual Guild Wars every few months, to play new content on it's release but the 200ping defaulted as there are no Aussie hosted servers, ruin that experience for me... and the Americans I played against on the same servers, had a significant advantage in PVP.

    The only way for OCE players to play is to have OCE servers.

    edit: 100ms ping is not acceptable in an environment with instant cast abilities and open world pvp. It is not acceptable at all.
    fZr1HEl.png
    Felautumn - OCE hee hee
    "He who has a why to live can bear almost any how"
    Friedrich Nietzsche
  • FelautumnFelautumn Member
    edited July 2020
    edit: delete this pls, accidentally made a 2nd reply.
    fZr1HEl.png
    Felautumn - OCE hee hee
    "He who has a why to live can bear almost any how"
    Friedrich Nietzsche
  • GloryGlory Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    StevenSharif wrote: »
    The likelihood is very high for Sydney or Melbourne based OCE servers. A large contingency here is the size of the OCE population as we approach launch.

    Cool stuff, awesome
  • DavlosDavlos Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited July 2020
    Aardvark wrote: »

    Are you sure all ISPs there take that around the world approach to get there? Maybe its just the 1 ISP you have that did something stupid in there routing table?

    From experience, there's only one Aussie ISP (Optus) which isn't dumb in routing. The rest are stubbornly terrible.
  • DavlosDavlos Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Kaielogy wrote: »
    I believe Singapore is the best spot in the middle for both OCE and SEA players getting a good average ping

    Wrong. OCE will get the short end of the stick.

    This isn't the first time it was attempted. Starcraft 2's SEA and Oceanic launch bombed hard with OCE gamers forced to play in SEA servers with ping frequently spiking over 200. It took a mass OCE player revolt before SEA region was retired on Bnet, and OCE+SEA are in the Americas region on the Blizzard launcher.
  • DavlosDavlos Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    tugowar wrote: »
    Texas has a higher population than Australia plus New Zealand, so Texas servers when?

    Your opinion was never taken seriously since 2017, and I'm pleased to see you offer more evidence to support this impression.
  • GibsGibs Member
    StevenSharif wrote: »
    The likelihood is very high for Sydney or Melbourne based OCE servers. A large contingency here is the size of the OCE population as we approach launch.

    That sure is a relief given Singapore is not part of Oceania and the latency from New Zealand would be north of 200ms making the game not worth considering.

    Sydney is a great option given its close to the majority of the Australian population and latency to New Zealand is also very good.

    When will there be confirmation of this, keen to support the game but don't want to drop any money as we have been burned too many times before?
  • IITHEOPIIIITHEOPII Member
    All I can say is PLEASE be Melbourne, being a huge ESO player I can tell you playing with 200+ ping everyday has me sometimes pulling my hair out, having a server in Melb or Syd would be an absolute dream.
  • AndiAndi Member, Alpha Two
    i hope i won't have to connect to sydney from japan. almost as bad as europe.
    how about separating asia and australia?
  • Samson1Samson1 Member
    Andi wrote: »
    i hope i won't have to connect to sydney from japan. almost as bad as europe.
    how about separating asia and australia?

    According to the AoC Wiki, there will be Asia/Pacific (SEA) servers.
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Servers#Regions
    sig-Samson-Final.gif
  • DeJokeDeJoke Member
    +1 to the OCE Servers. I do enjoy less than 40 ping. But it's not an FPS game so I don't think it will be that bad.

    SEA Servers will be great for SEA but not OCE. Anyone in New Zealand (me) will get better ping to West Coast NA.

    Since OCE apex legends is dead for ranked. Me and my buddies usually try both SEA and NA servers, which is 'fun'. As fun as lag and FPS are together. And usually, we go NA. Sometimes SEA is ok but it's all over the place.

    If we don't end up with OCE Servers then I'll happily play NA Servers. Ping is normally around 120 to LA. And at least I know everyone on the server will speak English. Imagine playing a social game having a language barrier. I feel like that would have the potential to make the game toxic as guilds/factions develop but at the same time. That also sounds like fun. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    At the end of the day, I would prefer 120 ping and a full everlasting server than 34~ ping to Aussie and a dead server due to numbers. I still remember playing LoL on NA servers back in the day. I couldn't do that now, I'd go mad as I've experienced OCE Servers for it. But it wasn't so bad before I experience OCE servers.

    What sorta concurrent subs or players would OCE have to hit for their own local server? The biggest problem I find with NZ/AUS is that there is like +1500% players on launch and then they all disappear. So it's really hard to figure out how many you actually have numbers-wise. Nothing worse than having 2-3 servers at the start and then having to merge them later on. But at the same time, do you do that? Or do you have problems with people logging in cause the server has hit its 8-10k cap and because of that people leave the game before even giving it a chance? It's not an easy problem to solve.

    If I had a go at solving the problem. I would find everyone in OCE who purchased the preorder packs and put them all in one server and make that "main" server and so their friends will join them in that server, and so that by nature, that will be the most populated server and fastest progressing and so the other servers will slowly merge as player retention drops on the other servers. It's not ideal but it's an idea. I know it's never nice talking about losing players before the game is even released. But a lot of people will just come in initially for that mmo experience and then go back and play whatever they were doing before.

    Maybe you guys could release a poll 2-3 months before release for just OCE to figure out estimate numbers and stating that based on numbers/feedback you will consider OCE servers. And if numbers are too low then OCE isn't interested enough to deserve them? Just my thoughts.
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  • BigblueyBigbluey Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2020
    +1 Australian servers.
    Games i've played previously from Australia to Singapore servers experience 200ms.
    This 200ms is from near Sydney, i cant even imagine the terrible ping that New Zealanders would get to Singapore.
    Considering i've spent over $200 in the kickstarter this feels like a slap in the face to Australians if this does become true.
    I really hope they change their mind.
  • YuyukoyayYuyukoyay Member
    edited August 2020
    It depends on cost efficiency and what the laws are. I can't see it being cheap to make servers in Australia considering they treat video games like the devil. They already had to sink a couple million into Europe. It may not be a thing that is done right away, but as the game goes on. Not necessarily against it, but I can see if they don't do it why.
    zZJyoEK.gif

    U.S. East
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