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[OCE Hosting] Why using Singapore as OCE Server Location is Suboptimal

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  • DavlosDavlos Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Aardvark wrote: »
    Davlos wrote: »
    Exec Summary

    To clear the air on where OCE servers are planned to be hosted, it's in Singapore. Precedent was set in Apocalypse, and questions to IS have resulted in the same: there is no intent to change the plan of hosting OCE at Singapore.

    The stated reason in the past is that pings from Sydney to Singapore ranged between 95-110ms, which was considered acceptable for MMORPG gameplay.

    Problems

    There are two problems with this plan:

    Problem #1 Packet traffic from Australia to Asia is frequently routed to the US before reaching Asia despite server providers' and ISPs' claims to the contrary, resulting in >220ms latency

    Methodology: I selected 4 game servers at random which are hosted in Sydney, and I conduct a trace route test from Singapore.

    Test 1:

    Tracing route to ns564480.ip-139-99-144.net [139.99.144.195]
    over a maximum of 30 hops:

    1 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms RT-AC5300-6C70 [192.168.1.1]
    2 9 ms 9 ms 4 ms 1.128.104.27.unknown.m1.com.sg [27.104.128.1]
    3 4 ms 4 ms 4 ms 182.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.182]
    4 5 ms 15 ms 5 ms 181.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.181]
    5 5 ms 19 ms 6 ms 38.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.38]
    6 5 ms 5 ms 8 ms 162.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.162]
    7 5 ms 5 ms 5 ms ovh.sgix.sg [103.16.102.120]
    8 * * * Request timed out.
    9 * * * Request timed out.
    10 * * * Request timed out.
    11 * * * Request timed out.
    12 222 ms 222 ms 222 ms syd-sy2-bb1-a9.au.asia.ovhcloud.com [103.5.15.27]
    13 238 ms 222 ms 222 ms syd1-sy2-g1-nc5.au.asia.ovhcloud.com [103.5.14.221]
    14 * * * Request timed out.
    15 * * * Request timed out.
    16 * * * Request timed out.
    17 232 ms 222 ms 221 ms ns564480.ip-139-99-144.net [139.99.144.195]

    Test 2:

    Tracing route to 103.137.12.2 over a maximum of 30 hops

    1 1 ms 2 ms 2 ms RT-AC5300-6C70 [192.168.1.1]
    2 4 ms 7 ms 4 ms 1.128.104.27.unknown.m1.com.sg [27.104.128.1]
    3 6 ms 13 ms 4 ms 182.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.182]
    4 5 ms 15 ms 5 ms 181.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.181]
    5 5 ms 6 ms 16 ms 134.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.134]
    6 5 ms 5 ms 5 ms 137409.sgw.equinix.com [27.111.229.213]
    7 6 ms 20 ms 16 ms te1.bdr1.sg1.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.194]
    8 52 ms 51 ms 51 ms perth.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.145]
    9 78 ms 78 ms 78 ms adelaide.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.218]
    10 88 ms 87 ms 87 ms melbourne.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.212]
    11 108 ms 97 ms 98 ms sydney.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.100]
    12 110 ms 109 ms 109 ms 103.137.13.70
    13 119 ms 109 ms 119 ms 103.137.12.2

    Test 3:

    Tracing route to ds07-syd02.strayagaming.com [103.212.227.76]
    over a maximum of 30 hops:

    1 1 ms 1 ms 2 ms RT-AC5300-6C70 [192.168.1.1]
    2 8 ms 6 ms 9 ms 1.128.104.27.unknown.m1.com.sg [27.104.128.1]
    3 4 ms 4 ms 4 ms 182.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.182]
    4 15 ms 6 ms 6 ms 181.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.181]
    5 5 ms 5 ms 5 ms 221.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.221]
    6 4 ms 5 ms 5 ms 137409.sgw.equinix.com [27.111.229.213]
    7 5 ms 5 ms 5 ms te1.bdr1.sg1.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.194]
    8 51 ms 51 ms 51 ms perth.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.145]
    9 78 ms 78 ms 88 ms adelaide.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.218]
    10 98 ms 87 ms 86 ms melbourne.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.212]
    11 109 ms 98 ms 98 ms sydney.gslnetworks.com.au [103.137.13.100]
    12 98 ms 98 ms 98 ms 10.255.255.6
    13 * * * Request timed out.
    14 * * * Request timed out.
    15 * * * Request timed out.
    16 * * * Request timed out.
    17 * * * Request timed out.
    18 * * * Request timed out.
    19 * * * Request timed out.
    20 * * * Request timed out.
    21 * * * Request timed out.
    22 * * * Request timed out.
    23 * * * Request timed out.
    24 * * * Request timed out.
    25 * * * Request timed out.
    26 * * * Request timed out.
    27 * * * Request timed out.
    28 * * * Request timed out.
    29 * * * Request timed out.
    30 * * * Request timed out.

    Test 4:

    Tracing route to ns549511.ip-139-99-145.net [139.99.145.105]
    over a maximum of 30 hops:

    1 3 ms 13 ms 1 ms RT-AC5300-6C70 [192.168.1.1]
    2 8 ms 10 ms 6 ms 1.128.104.27.unknown.m1.com.sg [27.104.128.1]
    3 4 ms 4 ms 4 ms 182.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.182]
    4 5 ms 15 ms 14 ms 181.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.181]
    5 5 ms 5 ms 5 ms 38.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.38]
    6 16 ms 5 ms 5 ms 162.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.162]
    7 6 ms * 5 ms ovh.sgix.sg [103.16.102.120]
    8 * * * Request timed out.
    9 * * * Request timed out.
    10 * * * Request timed out.
    11 * * * Request timed out.
    12 222 ms 222 ms 223 ms syd-sy2-bb1-a9.au.asia.ovhcloud.com [103.5.15.27]
    13 226 ms 224 ms 222 ms syd1-sy2-g1-nc5.au.asia.ovhcloud.com [103.5.14.221]
    14 * * * Request timed out.
    15 * * * Request timed out.
    16 * * * Request timed out.
    17 224 ms 224 ms 224 ms ns549511.ip-139-99-145.net [139.99.145.105]

    Out of 4 tests, only Test 2 reported a route which reported 119ms, which is well within the acceptable range of latency for MMORPG play. Test 3 would have reported a similar latency due to similarity of Test 2's route, but timed out. Tests 1 & 4 were 222 and 224ms latency respectively, where packets went through syd-sy2-bb1-a9.au.asia.ovhcloud.com, which is a US packet clearing house.

    Problem #2 Assuming Problem #1 does not exist or is resolved, New Zealand's gamers are severely impacted by latency to Singapore.

    For the sake of argument, should latency to Singapore from the Australian mainland be consistent on a 90-120ms scale, it still does not address NZ gamers' pain points.

    Test 1:

    Tracing route to ns562707.ip-139-99-208.net [139.99.208.101]
    over a maximum of 30 hops:

    1 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms RT-AC5300-6C70 [192.168.1.1]
    2 11 ms 20 ms 32 ms 1.128.104.27.unknown.m1.com.sg [27.104.128.1]
    3 5 ms 4 ms 4 ms 182.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.182]
    4 5 ms 5 ms 5 ms 181.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.181]
    5 16 ms 5 ms 5 ms 38.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.38]
    6 5 ms 6 ms 5 ms 162.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.162]
    7 * * 5 ms ovh.sgix.sg [103.16.102.120]
    8 * * * Request timed out.
    9 * * * Request timed out.
    10 * * * Request timed out.
    11 * * * Request timed out.
    12 221 ms 222 ms 233 ms syd-sy2-bb1-a9.au.asia.ovhcloud.com [103.5.15.27]
    13 222 ms 222 ms 222 ms syd1-sy2-g1-nc5.au.asia.ovhcloud.com [103.5.14.221]
    14 * * * Request timed out.
    15 * * * Request timed out.
    16 * * * Request timed out.
    17 * * * Request timed out.
    18 222 ms 222 ms 233 ms ns562707.ip-139-99-208.net [139.99.208.101]

    Test 2:

    Tracing route to minecraft.geek.nz [121.99.101.187]
    over a maximum of 30 hops:

    1 1 ms 1 ms 12 ms RT-AC5300-6C70 [192.168.1.1]
    2 6 ms 7 ms 17 ms 1.128.104.27.unknown.m1.com.sg [27.104.128.1]
    3 16 ms 4 ms 4 ms 182.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.182]
    4 5 ms 5 ms 5 ms 181.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.181]
    5 19 ms 5 ms 9 ms 134.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.134]
    6 27 ms 15 ms 7 ms 103.231.152.31
    7 95 ms 96 ms 110 ms be100.cor01.per04.wa.vocus.network [114.31.206.50]
    8 * * * Request timed out.
    9 * * * Request timed out.
    10 * * * Request timed out.
    11 96 ms 107 ms 96 ms be100.bdr02.syd03.nsw.vocus.network [114.31.192.39]
    12 130 ms 119 ms 120 ms ip-17.103.45.175.VOCUS.net.au [175.45.103.17]
    13 * * * Request timed out.
    14 * * * Request timed out.
    15 123 ms 121 ms 121 ms default-rdns.vocus.co.nz [121.99.101.187]

    Test 3:

    Tracing route to ns569131.ip-139-99-210.net [139.99.210.83]
    over a maximum of 30 hops:

    1 1 ms 1 ms 3 ms RT-AC5300-6C70 [192.168.1.1]
    2 4 ms 21 ms 7 ms 1.128.104.27.unknown.m1.com.sg [27.104.128.1]
    3 15 ms 4 ms 4 ms 182.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.182]
    4 6 ms 5 ms 5 ms 181.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.181]
    5 13 ms 5 ms 19 ms 38.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.38]
    6 6 ms 5 ms 5 ms 162.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.162]
    7 6 ms 16 ms 6 ms ovh.sgix.sg [103.16.102.120]
    8 * * * Request timed out.
    9 * * * Request timed out.
    10 * * * Request timed out.
    11 * * * Request timed out.
    12 222 ms 233 ms 237 ms syd-sy2-bb1-a9.au.asia.ovhcloud.com [103.5.15.27]
    13 223 ms 222 ms 223 ms syd1-sy2-g1-nc5.au.asia.ovhcloud.com [103.5.14.221]
    14 * * * Request timed out.
    15 * * * Request timed out.
    16 * * * Request timed out.
    17 * * * Request timed out.
    18 224 ms 224 ms 225 ms ns569131.ip-139-99-210.net [139.99.210.83]

    Test 4:

    Tracing route to 114.23.101.185 over a maximum of 30 hops

    1 1 ms 1 ms 2 ms RT-AC5300-6C70 [192.168.1.1]
    2 17 ms 5 ms 5 ms 1.128.104.27.unknown.m1.com.sg [27.104.128.1]
    3 4 ms 14 ms 4 ms 182.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.182]
    4 5 ms 10 ms 5 ms 181.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.181]
    5 25 ms 5 ms 5 ms 134.246.65.202.unknown.m1.com.sg [202.65.246.134]
    6 24 ms 6 ms 5 ms 103.231.152.31
    7 119 ms 130 ms 134 ms be100.cor01.per04.wa.vocus.network [114.31.206.50]
    8 * * * Request timed out.
    9 * * * Request timed out.
    10 * * * Request timed out.
    11 120 ms 131 ms 120 ms be201.cor01.alb01.akl.nz.vocus.network [114.31.202.52]
    12 120 ms 119 ms 119 ms be50.cor01.akl05.akl.nz.vocus.network [114.31.202.87]
    13 131 ms 131 ms 131 ms be100.bdr03.akl05.akl.nz.vocus.network [114.31.202.35]
    14 119 ms 119 ms 119 ms static-14.75.255.49.in-addr.VOCUS.net.au [49.255.75.14]
    15 123 ms 120 ms 120 ms xe-1-0-0-0.cr1.qst.vygr.net [114.23.0.178]
    16 135 ms 146 ms 135 ms xe-0-0-1-0.cr2.per.vygr.net [114.23.16.242]
    17 136 ms 136 ms 137 ms xe-1-3-1-0.cr1.chc.vygr.net [114.23.16.249]
    18 135 ms 135 ms 135 ms lag-1-377.br1.chc.vygr.net [114.23.15.227]
    19 137 ms 137 ms 137 ms 114.23.101.185

    Out of 4 tests to New Zealand servers, Test 2 was well within the 'acceptable' range of 121ms. Test 4 is tolerable. Tests 1 & 3 fail at 222ms and 225ms respectively.

    Proposed Solution

    IS, please don't leave your OCE gamers in the lurch. Yes, I reside in Singapore and gain from the 1-5ms latency environment, but as an esports tournament organizer in the past who has tried to include OCE gamers, this packet routing issue has been a constant problem in the last 20 years. The Aussie server providers are going to sell you all kinds of pitches which may not apply in real-world conditions. When this game was pitched on Kickstarter, OCE server support was promised, and I believe OCE gamers who believe in this project are owed a decent level of support.

    Please consider setting up a OCE-specific cluster at Sydney, which can serve the Australian and NZ region without gamers having to deal with their notoriously awful and uncooperative ISPs in improving routing to Asia.

    Thank you.

    Are you sure all ISPs there take that around the world approach to get there? Maybe its just the 1 ISP you have that did something stupid in there routing table?

    Positive.

    There's only 1 ISP which has reasonable routing, and that's Optus. But even with Optus it's not 100%.

    I spent nearly 10 years trying to bring APAC esports together via more tournaments and matches between SEA and OCE, and the ISP routing issue has always been the #1 blocker.
  • LilbootsLilboots Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I only purchased the game as there are supposedly Australian servers. This game will be HUGE in Australia, and I'm sure the developers know this, as it will be one of very few MMOs with Australian servers, Plus is western Developers with a vision, not some lame ass Korean generic sh*t. I have almost enough friends keen to play this game to fill up a server alone XD

    As long as people don't use other MMO's as a reference to the size of the MMO community in Australia, as it is large, But people choose not to play MMO's for ping reasons alone.

    As long as there is acknowledgement that the people that have pre-ordered (spent shit loads on this game..... me) have a way to have this their content refunded on the chance there is no Australian based servers!
  • PepinoPepino Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Just throwing my +1 for Sydney servers
  • bronxsystembronxsystem Member
    Aus servers or im not playing. We deserve server im happy to pay a sub.
  • Uncommon SenseUncommon Sense Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited November 2024
    Sorry for Bumping an old thread.

    But I've just done a comparison of both NA and EU server latency from Brisbane Australia with both maintaining a steady 255ping at 2pm EST. There apears to be no advantage picking either.

    I would Advise Intrepid to stay out of Melbourne Victoria as their local government could end up taxing you out the wazoo.

    Sydney NSW would be better and Brisbane QLD might be cheaper...though slightly further away from NZ...But closer to SE Asia...
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