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Multiboxing, Its Solutions, and Why it won't be as much of an issue in AoC

13»

Comments

  • XraelXrael Member
    edited July 2020
    Atama wrote: »
    noaani wrote: »
    CaptainChuck wrote: »
    noaani wrote: »
    CaptainChuck wrote: »
    Helps them camp resource node spawn locations.
    So we are making assumptions that resources act in a predicable way?

    Why are we making that assumption?

    I doubt that they can truly make it random. More than likely, it will just spawn in a random location out of a list of locations.
    Actual randomness is impossible with a computer. Giving users the appearance of randomness - even when attempting to find a pattern, isn't that hard.

    That list of spawns though, it will be hundreds of locations.
    It can be effectively random. It can be close enough to random that you’d never tell the difference. It’s not even hard, i even did it as a kid goofing around with amateur game design.

    Let’s say an area is an actual square mile in size on the game. You can have a resource node pop up anywhere in that area. A week is 604,800 seconds. Chop up that square mile game area into a grid of 604,800 squares (each about 5 square yards in size; relatively pretty small in a square mile area).

    Then create an algorithm that assigns each second of the week to one of those 5 square yard pieces. And then depending on the exact second the node is depleted, it respawns in a predetermined spot. The cycle resets at exactly 12 AM each Sunday local time.

    So that means that you’d have to figure out exactly where in an actual square mile the node is going to pop up, out of 604,800 potential locations spread out over that area (again, each a 5 yard square section) in a seemingly random way based on the exact second of the week. And these areas are scattered widely each second; from one second to the next it might spawn very close, or on the other side of the area. Again, determined by algorithm ahead of time, not a simple step-by-step grid.

    You are not going to figure it out. It will look as close to random as possible. Without reverse-engineering the game code and peeking through it obsessively would you be able to do it. It doesn’t have to be a dozen rotating locations. It can be hundreds of thousands across a mile. It depends on what the developers want to do. But again, it’s not even hard if a nerdy teenager goofing around can figure it out, professional game designers with years of experience working as a team can.

    As long as the no. of locations is SIGNIFICANTLY HIGH and its spread out across the ENTIRE map and not just a single region, you can emulate pseudo randomness that can somewhat prevent multiboxers from gathering all resources nodes as they will need a LOT of characters to cover all the spots. Also, they will have to fix the family system if all of this is to work.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    badtaste wrote: »
    how will they stop multiboxing while still allowing me to play with my gf?

    No idea
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • XraelXrael Member
    edited July 2020
    badtaste wrote: »
    how will they stop multiboxing while still allowing me to play with my gf?

    It won't affect you. Chill man.

    An option would be to limit the no. of identical classes per IP address to be like 3 or something. Its unlikely for 3 friends, playing together, to want to play the SAME EXACT class, in an MMORPG with 64 classes.

    I doubt they will go for any harsher types of IP restrictions as that would affect families playing together.

    So you and your gf are fine mate.
  • DontTouchMyHoHosDontTouchMyHoHos Member
    edited July 2020
    noaani wrote: »
    DontTouchMyHoHos wrote: »
    noaani wrote: »
    CaptainChuck wrote: »
    Helps them camp resource node spawn locations.
    So we are making assumptions that resources act in a predicable way?

    Why are we making that assumption?

    What assumption? This is a video game. It isnt going to be 100% random and since there is not fast travel per say. It makes shit immensely easier than traveling across the continent. Players are going to map out resource nodes and track timers of respawns then upload this info. Ff14 has an entire website dedicated to this. It tells you where the nodes spawn and how long. Dont underestimate the power of a gamer to figure out every single aspect of a game and min max the ever living fuck out of it.

    See, you don't have a great grasp on the systems in Ashes.


    I dont but i highly doubt a node will respawn on the other side of the map. Rare nodes are most likely location specific. Ive never played a game where nodes dont spawn in a general area within a few seconds walking distance of each other
  • DontTouchMyHoHosDontTouchMyHoHos Member
    Atama wrote: »
    noaani wrote: »
    CaptainChuck wrote: »
    noaani wrote: »
    CaptainChuck wrote: »
    Helps them camp resource node spawn locations.
    So we are making assumptions that resources act in a predicable way?

    Why are we making that assumption?

    I doubt that they can truly make it random. More than likely, it will just spawn in a random location out of a list of locations.
    Actual randomness is impossible with a computer. Giving users the appearance of randomness - even when attempting to find a pattern, isn't that hard.

    That list of spawns though, it will be hundreds of locations.
    It can be effectively random. It can be close enough to random that you’d never tell the difference. It’s not even hard, i even did it as a kid goofing around with amateur game design.

    Let’s say an area is an actual square mile in size on the game. You can have a resource node pop up anywhere in that area. A week is 604,800 seconds. Chop up that square mile game area into a grid of 604,800 squares (each about 5 square yards in size; relatively pretty small in a square mile area).

    Then create an algorithm that assigns each second of the week to one of those 5 square yard pieces. And then depending on the exact second the node is depleted, it respawns in a predetermined spot. The cycle resets at exactly 12 AM each Sunday local time.

    So that means that you’d have to figure out exactly where in an actual square mile the node is going to pop up, out of 604,800 potential locations spread out over that area (again, each a 5 yard square section) in a seemingly random way based on the exact second of the week. And these areas are scattered widely each second; from one second to the next it might spawn very close, or on the other side of the area. Again, determined by algorithm ahead of time, not a simple step-by-step grid.

    You are not going to figure it out. It will look as close to random as possible. Without reverse-engineering the game code and peeking through it obsessively would you be able to do it. It doesn’t have to be a dozen rotating locations. It can be hundreds of thousands across a mile. It depends on what the developers want to do. But again, it’s not even hard if a nerdy teenager goofing around can figure it out, professional game designers with years of experience working as a team can.

    It wouldnt need to be exact though. Just a general area is enough. If it tales hours to go to one location to the next. Simply being at multiple locations is huge. You dont need to know the exact spots. Unless they have them spawn on random locations with timers so long apart that it makes it super tedious, doubtful since the games is supposed to be enjoyable. That is only way to make it less worth while.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    DontTouchMyHoHos wrote: »
    Atama wrote: »
    noaani wrote: »
    CaptainChuck wrote: »
    noaani wrote: »
    CaptainChuck wrote: »
    Helps them camp resource node spawn locations.
    So we are making assumptions that resources act in a predicable way?

    Why are we making that assumption?

    I doubt that they can truly make it random. More than likely, it will just spawn in a random location out of a list of locations.
    Actual randomness is impossible with a computer. Giving users the appearance of randomness - even when attempting to find a pattern, isn't that hard.

    That list of spawns though, it will be hundreds of locations.
    It can be effectively random. It can be close enough to random that you’d never tell the difference. It’s not even hard, i even did it as a kid goofing around with amateur game design.

    Let’s say an area is an actual square mile in size on the game. You can have a resource node pop up anywhere in that area. A week is 604,800 seconds. Chop up that square mile game area into a grid of 604,800 squares (each about 5 square yards in size; relatively pretty small in a square mile area).

    Then create an algorithm that assigns each second of the week to one of those 5 square yard pieces. And then depending on the exact second the node is depleted, it respawns in a predetermined spot. The cycle resets at exactly 12 AM each Sunday local time.

    So that means that you’d have to figure out exactly where in an actual square mile the node is going to pop up, out of 604,800 potential locations spread out over that area (again, each a 5 yard square section) in a seemingly random way based on the exact second of the week. And these areas are scattered widely each second; from one second to the next it might spawn very close, or on the other side of the area. Again, determined by algorithm ahead of time, not a simple step-by-step grid.

    You are not going to figure it out. It will look as close to random as possible. Without reverse-engineering the game code and peeking through it obsessively would you be able to do it. It doesn’t have to be a dozen rotating locations. It can be hundreds of thousands across a mile. It depends on what the developers want to do. But again, it’s not even hard if a nerdy teenager goofing around can figure it out, professional game designers with years of experience working as a team can.

    It wouldnt need to be exact though. Just a general area is enough. If it tales hours to go to one location to the next. Simply being at multiple locations is huge. You dont need to know the exact spots. Unless they have them spawn on random locations with timers so long apart that it makes it super tedious, doubtful since the games is supposed to be enjoyable. That is only way to make it less worth while.
    It wouldn’t be hard to make the spread wide enough and random enough to kill that idea. My example of hundreds of thousands of possible locations across a square mile is overkill but it’s just using made-up numbers to point out that “randomness is impossible” is an academic irrelevancy.

    Let me dip back into some of my MMO experiences here. Playing WoW, I had an idea where ore nodes would spawn. My miner would hop on a flying mount and zip around in a circular route hitting all the spots that I knew ore would appear. I’d make laps flying around until I got enough to do what I needed to do. The spawning was predictable and a fast flying mount made it trivial.

    AoC won’t have fast travel. I’m not sure how fast mounts can be, but flying mounts will be unattainable by probably 99.9% of the player base. So the idea here is that positioning alts at known node spawning points gives you an advantage because swapping from one alt to another is like teleporting from one place to another rather than having to run on foot or on a horse (maybe getting attacked by monsters and players alike along the way). Hence you get an advantage.

    If resources spawned like they do in WoW, in predictable locations, you’d have a point. So all Intrepid has to do is not copy WoW. Then you don’t know where to put your alts. It would be no more efficient to strategically place alts around the map than there would be to just run around looking. You’re equally likely either way to randomly find resources. Actually, if you are talking about possible load times swapping windows or computers or logging out/back in going from alt to alt, it’s probably more efficient to just run around searching.

    TL;DR: If Intrepid doesn’t make resource spawning predictable (and I explained just one easy way to avoid that) then you can’t get a benefit out of alts in seeking resources.
     
    Hhak63P.png
  • XraelXrael Member
    Atama wrote: »
    DontTouchMyHoHos wrote: »
    Atama wrote: »
    noaani wrote: »
    CaptainChuck wrote: »
    noaani wrote: »
    CaptainChuck wrote: »
    Helps them camp resource node spawn locations.
    So we are making assumptions that resources act in a predicable way?

    Why are we making that assumption?

    I doubt that they can truly make it random. More than likely, it will just spawn in a random location out of a list of locations.
    Actual randomness is impossible with a computer. Giving users the appearance of randomness - even when attempting to find a pattern, isn't that hard.

    That list of spawns though, it will be hundreds of locations.
    It can be effectively random. It can be close enough to random that you’d never tell the difference. It’s not even hard, i even did it as a kid goofing around with amateur game design.

    Let’s say an area is an actual square mile in size on the game. You can have a resource node pop up anywhere in that area. A week is 604,800 seconds. Chop up that square mile game area into a grid of 604,800 squares (each about 5 square yards in size; relatively pretty small in a square mile area).

    Then create an algorithm that assigns each second of the week to one of those 5 square yard pieces. And then depending on the exact second the node is depleted, it respawns in a predetermined spot. The cycle resets at exactly 12 AM each Sunday local time.

    So that means that you’d have to figure out exactly where in an actual square mile the node is going to pop up, out of 604,800 potential locations spread out over that area (again, each a 5 yard square section) in a seemingly random way based on the exact second of the week. And these areas are scattered widely each second; from one second to the next it might spawn very close, or on the other side of the area. Again, determined by algorithm ahead of time, not a simple step-by-step grid.

    You are not going to figure it out. It will look as close to random as possible. Without reverse-engineering the game code and peeking through it obsessively would you be able to do it. It doesn’t have to be a dozen rotating locations. It can be hundreds of thousands across a mile. It depends on what the developers want to do. But again, it’s not even hard if a nerdy teenager goofing around can figure it out, professional game designers with years of experience working as a team can.

    It wouldnt need to be exact though. Just a general area is enough. If it tales hours to go to one location to the next. Simply being at multiple locations is huge. You dont need to know the exact spots. Unless they have them spawn on random locations with timers so long apart that it makes it super tedious, doubtful since the games is supposed to be enjoyable. That is only way to make it less worth while.
    It wouldn’t be hard to make the spread wide enough and random enough to kill that idea. My example of hundreds of thousands of possible locations across a square mile is overkill but it’s just using made-up numbers to point out that “randomness is impossible” is an academic irrelevancy.

    Let me dip back into some of my MMO experiences here. Playing WoW, I had an idea where ore nodes would spawn. My miner would hop on a flying mount and zip around in a circular route hitting all the spots that I knew ore would appear. I’d make laps flying around until I got enough to do what I needed to do. The spawning was predictable and a fast flying mount made it trivial.

    AoC won’t have fast travel. I’m not sure how fast mounts can be, but flying mounts will be unattainable by probably 99.9% of the player base. So the idea here is that positioning alts at known node spawning points gives you an advantage because swapping from one alt to another is like teleporting from one place to another rather than having to run on foot or on a horse (maybe getting attacked by monsters and players alike along the way). Hence you get an advantage.

    If resources spawned like they do in WoW, in predictable locations, you’d have a point. So all Intrepid has to do is not copy WoW. Then you don’t know where to put your alts. It would be no more efficient to strategically place alts around the map than there would be to just run around looking. You’re equally likely either way to randomly find resources. Actually, if you are talking about possible load times swapping windows or computers or logging out/back in going from alt to alt, it’s probably more efficient to just run around searching.

    TL;DR: If Intrepid doesn’t make resource spawning predictable (and I explained just one easy way to avoid that) then you can’t get a benefit out of alts in seeking resources.

    True. Also they need to fix the family system. Otherwise all of this will be pointless.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    DontTouchMyHoHos wrote: »
    noaani wrote: »
    DontTouchMyHoHos wrote: »
    noaani wrote: »
    CaptainChuck wrote: »
    Helps them camp resource node spawn locations.
    So we are making assumptions that resources act in a predicable way?

    Why are we making that assumption?

    What assumption? This is a video game. It isnt going to be 100% random and since there is not fast travel per say. It makes shit immensely easier than traveling across the continent. Players are going to map out resource nodes and track timers of respawns then upload this info. Ff14 has an entire website dedicated to this. It tells you where the nodes spawn and how long. Dont underestimate the power of a gamer to figure out every single aspect of a game and min max the ever living fuck out of it.

    See, you don't have a great grasp on the systems in Ashes.


    I dont but i highly doubt a node will respawn on the other side of the map. Rare nodes are most likely location specific. Ive never played a game where nodes dont spawn in a general area within a few seconds walking distance of each other

    If you are genuinely concerned that players that multibox in Ashes will have an advantage in gathering raw materials, you should probably look in to everything to do with raw materials a bit.
  • XraelXrael Member
    noaani wrote: »
    DontTouchMyHoHos wrote: »
    noaani wrote: »
    DontTouchMyHoHos wrote: »
    noaani wrote: »
    CaptainChuck wrote: »
    Helps them camp resource node spawn locations.
    So we are making assumptions that resources act in a predicable way?

    Why are we making that assumption?

    What assumption? This is a video game. It isnt going to be 100% random and since there is not fast travel per say. It makes shit immensely easier than traveling across the continent. Players are going to map out resource nodes and track timers of respawns then upload this info. Ff14 has an entire website dedicated to this. It tells you where the nodes spawn and how long. Dont underestimate the power of a gamer to figure out every single aspect of a game and min max the ever living fuck out of it.

    See, you don't have a great grasp on the systems in Ashes.


    I dont but i highly doubt a node will respawn on the other side of the map. Rare nodes are most likely location specific. Ive never played a game where nodes dont spawn in a general area within a few seconds walking distance of each other

    If you are genuinely concerned that players that multibox in Ashes will have an advantage in gathering raw materials, you should probably look in to everything to do with raw materials a bit.

    I did read on the wiki that certain resources will be region specific.
  • Undead CanuckUndead Canuck Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    According to multiple people here, you are multiboxing / multi-accounting / and probably lots of other names that cannot be used.
    How could you be so horrible as to have more than one account per country! How rude.

    According to them this should be switched to a play by mail system. Even then they will probably accuse you of sending more than one letter (multi-enveloping)!

    As you may have noticed, I am laughing at all people who are so adamant that playing the game for enjoyment is bad. Just enjoy it. Why do you have to kill the experience for others?
  • XraelXrael Member
    Undead Canuck wrote: »
    According to multiple people here, you are multiboxing / multi-accounting / and probably lots of other names that cannot be used.
    How could you be so horrible as to have more than one account per country! How rude.

    According to them this should be switched to a play by mail system. Even then they will probably accuse you of sending more than one letter (multi-enveloping)!

    As you may have noticed, I am laughing at all people who are so adamant that playing the game for enjoyment is bad. Just enjoy it. Why do you have to kill the experience for others?

    It is vital that your enjoyment does not come at the expense of others, especially not in an MMO.

    Multiboxing, when done without any sort of software, should be acceptable. If a person can control 2 or more UNIQUE characters simultaneously, that's not P2C, its just impressive.

    Obviously, Intrepid has to make it so that having multiple accounts does not SIGNIFICANTLY improve your resource gathering/processing, i.e. make it so that its just not worth the money. So this way, people who multibox, will be doing it just for the challenge of it.
  • TheLegend27TheLegend27 Member
    Tsukasa wrote: »
    "Much of an issue" is still an issue=P2W. Period.

    You seem to be a big hater of this :# . Honestly, I dont think itll be much of a worry on AoC. Hopefully they'll also have a good anti-cheater/reporting system
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    TheLegend27 wrote: »
    Tsukasa wrote: »
    "Much of an issue" is still an issue=P2W. Period.

    You seem to be a big hater of this :# . Honestly, I dont think itll be much of a worry on AoC. Hopefully they'll also have a good anti-cheater/reporting system

    While I also hope they do, it is worth pointing out that a system like this is only as good as the playerbase using it.
  • TheLegend27TheLegend27 Member
    edited July 2020
    noaani wrote: »
    Tsukasa wrote: »
    Corrected to "not solely a matter of skill"
    noaani wrote: »
    Tsukasa wrote: »
    It's not a matter of skill.
    And an additional $15 a month.

    and +$1500 for new PC.

    Actually, add another zero on the end of that.

    I'm in the process of building a computer with a 3990X, 2 Quadro RTX5000's (actually still considering getting up to RTX8000's) and 256gb of ram, as well as at least 4 T2 M.2 NVMe drives - and a few other components that I need for other projects.

    Off topic, but are you planning to render a simulation of the entire world in 1:1 scale? :D those specs are insane!

    Edit: Read the end of your post. How will you multi box with it? Using a VM?
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited July 2020
    TheLegend27 wrote: »
    noaani wrote: »
    Tsukasa wrote: »
    Corrected to "not solely a matter of skill"
    noaani wrote: »
    Tsukasa wrote: »
    It's not a matter of skill.
    And an additional $15 a month.

    and +$1500 for new PC.

    Actually, add another zero on the end of that.

    I'm in the process of building a computer with a 3990X, 2 Quadro RTX5000's (actually still considering getting up to RTX8000's) and 256gb of ram, as well as at least 4 T2 M.2 NVMe drives - and a few other components that I need for other projects.

    Off topic, but are you planning to render a simulation of the entire world in 1:1 scale? :D those specs are insane!

    Edit: Read the end of your post. How will you multi box with it? Using a VM?

    My plan for it with Ashes is actually not necessarily to multibox, it is to run up to 5 accounts, with up to 5 players. I have a few friends and such that are unable to game at their own home due to various reasons, but are able to come to mine often to play. A setup like this is far better all around than having 5 individual computers.

    I'll have the Threadripper system broken off in to 4 VM's. Each with probably 12 cores (leaving 16 cores to run the virtualization itself), and then give each a VM it's own SSD, dedicated ram channels and exactly half of what ever Quadro GPU I go for (Quadro specifically because you can't split the resources of an individual regular consumer RTX card between different VM's, but you can with Quadros).

    The hardest part of all of this will likely be making sure I have USB dedicated to each VM so that each can have it's own mouse and keyboard.

    My current plan is actually to take the 4 individual HDMI outputs and have them all go in to a monitor with picture-by-picture - basically a 4k monitor but instead of displaying one 4k image from one source, it is splitting the monitor up in to four equal sections, each one of them being a perfect 1080p display - and each display taking a feed from a different input on the monitor.

    While doing this is a waste of money in regards to the Quadro cards (I could have just used a 4k feed to one monitor and then set each VM up to it's own section of that 4k monitor), doing it with Quadros means ! have far more flexibility in the future. I'll be able to set it up to run four 4k monitors (though at low resolution if I go for the 5000's - the 8000's should be able to run two 4k monitors at a good resolution).

    Then of course there will be the actual gaming PC in the same case (I am trying to get hold of a Enthoo Elite to do this, but there are other options).

    If I do decide to multibox Ashes, and for some reason decide to do that with more than 2 accounts (I don't currently see that as being possibel without botting), I would probably use an Elgato Streamdeck with key abilities that each character would use, and run everything through Synergy so I only needed 1 mouse and keyboard.

    This would leave me in a situation where I am running up to 5 accounts over two physical machines, but one of those machines will be running 4 VM's. With those 5 accounts, I have a single mouse that is able to move between them all as if I have 5 monitors on one computer,and my keyboard input would be able to go to any of them. The setup I am hoping to achieve will have the Streamdeck commands that I set up being a little faster than using the keyboard - but in all cases, I will never be able to get more than one action from one key press - which even if that is not the rules, it will always remain my rule for multiboxing.

    I want to stress, this is not likely to happen in Ashes. I may run two accounts, but even that is something I've not decided on yet - it all depends on if there are challenges I enjoy in the game without multiboxing or not.
  • TimeraiderTimeraider Member, Phoenix Initiative, Hero of the People, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I get the feeling that even with it being waaay less of an issue compared to literally any other MMO out right now with the restrictions... I do wonder how long it will take for a guild to form focused on hunting down bots :hushed:
    Would love to see that happen XD
    SoulfulDisastrousIrukandjijellyfish-small.gif
    A being can not judge light if he has never seen it, neither can he judge darkness if he never has been it
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Timeraider wrote: »
    I get the feeling that even with it being waaay less of an issue compared to literally any other MMO out right now with the restrictions... I do wonder how long it will take for a guild to form focused on hunting down bots :hushed:
    Would love to see that happen XD

    I have no doubt there will be guilds with this intention on day 1.

    My question is - how long would they last.
  • TimeraiderTimeraider Member, Phoenix Initiative, Hero of the People, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    noaani wrote: »
    Timeraider wrote: »
    I get the feeling that even with it being waaay less of an issue compared to literally any other MMO out right now with the restrictions... I do wonder how long it will take for a guild to form focused on hunting down bots :hushed:
    Would love to see that happen XD

    I have no doubt there will be guilds with this intention on day 1.

    My question is - how long would they last.

    About a week probably.. maybe 2 at best
    SoulfulDisastrousIrukandjijellyfish-small.gif
    A being can not judge light if he has never seen it, neither can he judge darkness if he never has been it
  • BloodNogBloodNog Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Timeraider wrote: »
    I get the feeling that even with it being waaay less of an issue compared to literally any other MMO out right now with the restrictions... I do wonder how long it will take for a guild to form focused on hunting down bots :hushed:
    Would love to see that happen XD

    Would it be worth turning corrupted for? It's best to just report and hope the GMs take it seriously.
  • XraelXrael Member
    Multiboxing has existed in WoW for ages and they've allowed to it a much further extent than in AoC. Even so, the game is still successful. This shows that its not as much of an issue as people make it out to be.

    I don't know about archeage and why multiboxing might have been an issue there, but if Blizzard managed to curb it, then Intrepid can as well.
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