Please Do Not Allow Stealth Mechanics to be Grossly OP.

As it stands, there are several MMOs that have designed stealth mechanic based classes to be:

1. Highly Mobile, while also being top tier damage.
2. Able to nearly lock someone down, unable to fight back for nearly all of their health pool.
3. Have the best, most effective CC in game, also on short cooldown.
4. Be practical tanks with skills that allow them to negate and/or completely avoid damage all while continuing damage against you.
5. Able to move as fast as a mounted player, while stealthed!
6. Have almost a guaranteed ability to always get the first hit in any fight.
7. The ability to reset any fight that does not go their way, negating ANY consequence for bad game play or tactical decisions that any other class would suffer for.
8. Self heals onto of all that.

I could say more but those are genuine concerns that plague a lot of MMOs. Please, if you want to make stealth classes top tier dps, then dont let them also have practically no weaknesses and no consequence for bad decisions. They should be highly vulnerable once brought out of stealth, whether by choice or not, and not be able to destroy any and all other classes just by virtue of their class.

Thank you.

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Comments

phdmonster

Invisibility in Ashes is not true invisibility. It's more like being transluscent.

Songcaller

I have no complaints. *Stealths*

Nagash

When in doubt. AOE

Songcaller

Nagash wrote: »

When in doubt. AOE

Yeah if you get asked 'Do you want to attack this target?' and you see no-one there, you know you're being stealth stalked.

Nagash

Neurath wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

When in doubt. AOE

Yeah if you get asked 'Do you want to attack this target?' and you see no-one there, you know you're being stealth stalked.

I was thinking about casting fire everywhere till they die but that works too

Atama

Nagash wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

When in doubt. AOE

Yeah if you get asked 'Do you want to attack this target?' and you see no-one there, you know you're being stealth stalked.

I was thinking about casting fire everywhere till they die but that works too

Nagash and his persistent 10 meter bubble of molten plasma.

“Look guys I’m just trying to ensure social distancing.”

Nagash

Atama wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

When in doubt. AOE

Yeah if you get asked 'Do you want to attack this target?' and you see no-one there, you know you're being stealth stalked.

I was thinking about casting fire everywhere till they die but that works too

Nagash and his persistent 10 meter bubble of molten plasma.

“Look guys I’m just trying to ensure social distancing.”

if it works it works

B1uefalc0n

I feel like this thread is more concerned about rogues being OP over invisibility being OP but I digress.
The essence of a Rogue is to be able to silently assassinate their target quickly, they are expected to be agile and capable of evasive maneuvers. That being said I agree that they should be in a state of OH crap if they are caught off guard and there should be mechanics in the game for that situation to happen by all classes. On the flip side if they are skilled and successful in stalking their prey they should be able to make quick work of them. As I have heard invisibility is not true invisibility it is stealth meaning easily overlooked but still visible on the screen. So every class should be able to prevent them from getting the jump on you if your paying attention. Making it all that more difficult to successfully stalk their prey making it all the more justified to be able to take you out before you can call for help. FYI I am not a rogue player I am just giving my 2 cents on the matter as I see it.

Whiskiz

Sooo, the only part i noticed in your post that relates to the actual stealth of a Rogue being OP is apparently:

"Able to move as fast as a mounted player, while stealthed!"

The rest is class design that you personally have issues with, not the singular stealth mechanic.

That along with:

"I could say more but those are genuine concerns that plague a lot of MMOs"

and most of the other stuff you had to say - you're clearly just making a "nerf this i cant deal with it" post on a class in a game that hasn't even released yet....

Why don't you just make another post on WoW forums and be done with it.

I get the feeling you get destroyed by anything with a good player behind it.

Would love to see some gameplay videos of you dominating people on an OP Rogue though.

DaRougaroux

Whiskiz wrote: »

Sooo, the only part i noticed in your post that relates to the actual stealth of a Rogue being OP is apparently:

"Able to move as fast as a mounted player, while stealthed!"

The rest is class design that you personally have issues with, not the singular stealth mechanic.

That along with:

"I could say more but those are genuine concerns that plague a lot of MMOs"

and most of the other stuff you had to say - you're clearly just making a "nerf this i cant deal with it" post on a class in a game that hasn't even released yet....

Why don't you just make another post on WoW forums about it and be done with it.

I get the feeling you get destroyed by anything with a good player behind it.

Just because you can't deal with a class that gets to attack first, when you aren't ready, doesn't make them OP by default and even if it did, then raise the issue with the class not one singular part of the class.

Nice, you picked ONE issue and made it the basis for your rebutle. Then used platitudes and assumptions to try to prove to yourself you are correct.

Congratulations, you have absolutely no skill at debate.

PS: How long you been playing a Rogue?

Valento92

I share the concern. Being able to be invisible, agile, have defensive maneuvers is expected, but it should have very low hp because being invisible is the greatest defense one could have, and only weak/medium-powered heal-over-time skills if any. Rogue should also be quite proficient at poisoning; it's part of the archetype characteristics.

DaRougaroux

Valento92 wrote: »

I share the concern. Being able to be invisible, agile, have defensive maneuvers is expected, but it should have very low hp because being invisible is the greatest defense one could have, and only weak/medium-powered heal-over-time skills if any. Rogue should also be quite proficient at poisoning; it's part of the archetype characteristics.

Agreed. Agreed.

Atama

DaRougaroux wrote: »

Whiskiz wrote: »

Sooo, the only part i noticed in your post that relates to the actual stealth of a Rogue being OP is apparently:

"Able to move as fast as a mounted player, while stealthed!"

The rest is class design that you personally have issues with, not the singular stealth mechanic.

That along with:

"I could say more but those are genuine concerns that plague a lot of MMOs"

and most of the other stuff you had to say - you're clearly just making a "nerf this i cant deal with it" post on a class in a game that hasn't even released yet....

Why don't you just make another post on WoW forums about it and be done with it.

I get the feeling you get destroyed by anything with a good player behind it.

Just because you can't deal with a class that gets to attack first, when you aren't ready, doesn't make them OP by default and even if it did, then raise the issue with the class not one singular part of the class.

Nice, you picked ONE issue and made it the basis for your rebutle. Then used platitudes and assumptions to try to prove to yourself you are correct.

Congratulations, you have absolutely no skill at debate.

PS: How long you been playing a Rogue?

But they’re right. Your rant has little to do with stealth.

Stealth doesn’t make you stun people, do top tier damage, self-heal, run as fast as a mount on foot, or become a tank. You really only mention two things...

1) Getting in the first hit.

2) Being able to escape a fight.

I’d say the first thing should be accepted. If someone with stealth can’t attack without detection there isn’t a lot of reason to be in stealth, unless it’s intended to only avoid combat.

The second thing, I agree that if it exists in this game then there should be measures to prevent it from being abused. Maybe it has a long cool down, and/or you suffer some kind of penalty for a while to dissuade you from doing it casually.

All of the other things you mention are totally off-topic and sound like you are bitter about other games that aren’t AoC. That baggage isn’t really helpful.

Caeryl

I can tell this OP comes from ESO, these are the same complaints almost word-for-word you hear on the forums about Nightblades. Yet in ESO the Rogue class was the LEAST viable PvP class in any upper tier of play unless it built full tank like every other class. It was also somehow the go-to most potent PvE tank pick at the time I left the game.

Assassins should be able to 100-0 a squishy they catch off guard. Their cc should be reliable but on a moderate-long cooldown as to ensure skill is required for successful burst and poor planning is punished. Stealth over true invisibility is a good step to having healthy rogue play patterns

BlackBrony

As long as you can't enter stealth again in a short amount of time, I'm ok.
Nothing more annoying that a Rogue trying to kill and when it's about to die goes invisible, then pots, recovers hp and comes back again at it.
You can never finish it off.

Whiskiz

Valento92 wrote: »

I share the concern. Being able to be invisible, agile, have defensive maneuvers is expected, but it should have very low hp because being invisible is the greatest defense one could have, and only weak/medium-powered heal-over-time skills if any. Rogue should also be quite proficient at poisoning; it's part of the archetype characteristics.

Erm, how can you class invisibility as a great defence when you lose it after combat starts? Unless you have a major cd, single time use, combat stealth?

DaRougaroux wrote: »

Nice, you picked ONE issue and made it the basis for your rebutle.

I picked one issue because maybe it was the only issue that actually had anything to do with your entire thread and its title?

Lol.

Valento92

Whiskiz wrote: »

Valento92 wrote: »

I share the concern. Being able to be invisible, agile, have defensive maneuvers is expected, but it should have very low hp because being invisible is the greatest defense one could have, and only weak/medium-powered heal-over-time skills if any. Rogue should also be quite proficient at poisoning; it's part of the archetype characteristics.

Erm, how can you class invisibility as a great defence when you lose it after combat starts? Unless you have a major cd, single time use, combat stealth?

Well dude, you're a bit ahead in development. Folks are discussing class designs, they could be implemented in a plethora of ways. GW2 thief is OP, FF ninja is underpowered, I guess Intrepid could base themselves off of countless games to avoid this mechanics from being OP while still being fair and fun.

DaRougaroux

BlackBrony wrote: »

As long as you can't enter stealth again in a short amount of time, I'm ok.
Nothing more annoying that a Rogue trying to kill and when it's about to die goes invisible, then pots, recovers hp and comes back again at it.
You can never finish it off.

Exactly.

DaRougaroux

Valento92 wrote: »

Whiskiz wrote: »

Valento92 wrote: »

I share the concern. Being able to be invisible, agile, have defensive maneuvers is expected, but it should have very low hp because being invisible is the greatest defense one could have, and only weak/medium-powered heal-over-time skills if any. Rogue should also be quite proficient at poisoning; it's part of the archetype characteristics.

Erm, how can you class invisibility as a great defence when you lose it after combat starts? Unless you have a major cd, single time use, combat stealth?

Well dude, you're a bit ahead in development. Folks are discussing class designs, they could be implemented in a plethora of ways. GW2 thief is OP, FF ninja is underpowered, I guess Intrepid could base themselves off of countless games to avoid this mechanics from being OP while still being fair and fun.

GW2: Theif was greatly OP.
WoW: Rogues, LoL OP.
Rift: Once again, LoL OP
ESO: Nightblades, OP

I mean can we bring some friggin sanity to stealth classes, that's all I'm saying. Can we end the ridiculous cycle?

Songcaller

DaRougaroux wrote: »

GW2: Theif was greatly OP.
WoW: Rogues, LoL OP.
Rift: Once again, LoL OP
ESO: Nightblades, OP

I mean can we bring some friggin sanity to stealth classes, that's all I'm saying. Can we end the ridiculous cycle?

A class will be a Hard Counter to Rogues in Ashes. None of those other games have a Hard Counter for Rogues, some do have 'Reveal Hidden Player' mechanics though. I hope Ashes does both Hard Counter and 'Reveal Hidden Enemies'. A Ranger will have a track ability and in Age of Conan, the track ability showed Stealthed Players and Stealth Player locations. Not sure how the Track Ability will work in Ashes though.

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