Please Do Not Allow Stealth Mechanics to be Grossly OP.

As it stands, there are several MMOs that have designed stealth mechanic based classes to be:

1. Highly Mobile, while also being top tier damage.
2. Able to nearly lock someone down, unable to fight back for nearly all of their health pool.
3. Have the best, most effective CC in game, also on short cooldown.
4. Be practical tanks with skills that allow them to negate and/or completely avoid damage all while continuing damage against you.
5. Able to move as fast as a mounted player, while stealthed!
6. Have almost a guaranteed ability to always get the first hit in any fight.
7. The ability to reset any fight that does not go their way, negating ANY consequence for bad game play or tactical decisions that any other class would suffer for.
8. Self heals onto of all that.

I could say more but those are genuine concerns that plague a lot of MMOs. Please, if you want to make stealth classes top tier dps, then dont let them also have practically no weaknesses and no consequence for bad decisions. They should be highly vulnerable once brought out of stealth, whether by choice or not, and not be able to destroy any and all other classes just by virtue of their class.

Thank you.

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Caeryl

DaRougaroux wrote: »

Valento92 wrote: »

Whiskiz wrote: »

Valento92 wrote: »

I share the concern. Being able to be invisible, agile, have defensive maneuvers is expected, but it should have very low hp because being invisible is the greatest defense one could have, and only weak/medium-powered heal-over-time skills if any. Rogue should also be quite proficient at poisoning; it's part of the archetype characteristics.

Erm, how can you class invisibility as a great defence when you lose it after combat starts? Unless you have a major cd, single time use, combat stealth?

Well dude, you're a bit ahead in development. Folks are discussing class designs, they could be implemented in a plethora of ways. GW2 thief is OP, FF ninja is underpowered, I guess Intrepid could base themselves off of countless games to avoid this mechanics from being OP while still being fair and fun.

GW2: Theif was greatly OP.
WoW: Rogues, LoL OP.
Rift: Once again, LoL OP
ESO: Nightblades, OP

I mean can we bring some friggin sanity to stealth classes, that's all I'm saying. Can we end the ridiculous cycle?

Sounds like you just have zero inclination to actually use stealth counters or account for surviving burst.

Nagash

Caeryl wrote: »

DaRougaroux wrote: »

Valento92 wrote: »

Whiskiz wrote: »

Valento92 wrote: »

I share the concern. Being able to be invisible, agile, have defensive maneuvers is expected, but it should have very low hp because being invisible is the greatest defense one could have, and only weak/medium-powered heal-over-time skills if any. Rogue should also be quite proficient at poisoning; it's part of the archetype characteristics.

Erm, how can you class invisibility as a great defence when you lose it after combat starts? Unless you have a major cd, single time use, combat stealth?

Well dude, you're a bit ahead in development. Folks are discussing class designs, they could be implemented in a plethora of ways. GW2 thief is OP, FF ninja is underpowered, I guess Intrepid could base themselves off of countless games to avoid this mechanics from being OP while still being fair and fun.

GW2: Theif was greatly OP.
WoW: Rogues, LoL OP.
Rift: Once again, LoL OP
ESO: Nightblades, OP

I mean can we bring some friggin sanity to stealth classes, that's all I'm saying. Can we end the ridiculous cycle?

Sounds like you just have zero inclination to actually use stealth counters or account for surviving burst.

Like I said just use AOE. you are bound to hit something sooner or later

Volgaire

Nagash wrote: »

When in doubt. AOE

You don't even need to be in doubt, just do it anyways.

Caeryl

Nagash wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

DaRougaroux wrote: »

Valento92 wrote: »

Whiskiz wrote: »

Valento92 wrote: »

I share the concern. Being able to be invisible, agile, have defensive maneuvers is expected, but it should have very low hp because being invisible is the greatest defense one could have, and only weak/medium-powered heal-over-time skills if any. Rogue should also be quite proficient at poisoning; it's part of the archetype characteristics.

Erm, how can you class invisibility as a great defence when you lose it after combat starts? Unless you have a major cd, single time use, combat stealth?

Well dude, you're a bit ahead in development. Folks are discussing class designs, they could be implemented in a plethora of ways. GW2 thief is OP, FF ninja is underpowered, I guess Intrepid could base themselves off of countless games to avoid this mechanics from being OP while still being fair and fun.

GW2: Theif was greatly OP.
WoW: Rogues, LoL OP.
Rift: Once again, LoL OP
ESO: Nightblades, OP

I mean can we bring some friggin sanity to stealth classes, that's all I'm saying. Can we end the ridiculous cycle?

Sounds like you just have zero inclination to actually use stealth counters or account for surviving burst.

Like I said just use AOE. you are bound to hit something sooner or later

AoE has always been the biggest hard counter. Good luck playing a squishy assassin when the ground is covered in fire, lightning, slow zones, and arrow rain.

OnibakaEX

Flawed original thread post, but if we back off with the personal attacks, there might be an interesting game design exercise here. I'm gonna try and hijack it towards that.

How would you build a stealth melee character, so that it feels fulfilling to play, while having exploitable flaws?
I'm gonna give it a go.

What should an Assassin's role in a trinity-based PVP system be?
I see them as back-line infiltrators. They should be able to sneak to the juicy targets(mages/buffers) and ideally take one(or two) out. Then have a fair escape mechanism that makes their exit the hectic part of the engagement. Once out of danger - rinse and repeat.

As direct 1vs1 interactions between players of similar equipment and level go:
An Assassin should not be able to win against Tank & Fighter classes.
Should be able to take care of Mage when the Mage is caught off guard, but escape or die if detected at mid/long range.
Should kill Buffers when they're caught off guard, but be disabled at mid/long range. Essentially failing the attempt and having to back off and reset before trying again.
Archers should destroy it at range... not certain what the proper close range interaction should be, based on armor I guess it should not be able to explode them, so they're not ideal target.

What skills would I put on an Assassin(and on his opposition) to ensure this interaction?
- Counterable infiltration skill - ideally Stealth, as it gives so much to the encounter. And by Stealth I don't mean "increased speed translucency" as both aspects of that are just WRONG on every level. I mean full-on invisibility with a decrease in speed, as the character is putting an effort in not being detected rather than usain-bolting towards the enemy's squishy bits. And I said "counterable" because having "detection" abilities on other classes is essential to the game of hide and seek that I want out of it. I'm thinking a combination of passive short range AOE around tanks + active target AOE on buffers, giving them another thing to do in an engagement. As far as cooldown goes, you can make it 3 seconds for all I care, as long as activation is possible on a meaningful distance away from any enemy.
- Escape mechanism - ideally something along the lines of a displacement/short distance teleportation with automatic deselect for enemy tab skills. After that you just hoof it towards your mates or stealth if you think the enemy won't find you with detection. At that point the name of the game is cat and mouse as the enemy forces decide to chase or regroup... or have to deal with the rest of your guys.
- As far as the attack skills I think you can flavor him however you like - burst dmg, poison, bleed, whatever fits what you're going for. Heck, for the sake of teamplay you might put some Mark-equivalent that grants archers extra range/dmg against target.

And that's it really...
The goal with creating a burst damage character should be to enable that play you'll be telling your friends about for weeks, while not mentioning the 20+ other times where you made an error died or ran away.

I don't know... Does that sound fun.. or fair for that matter? I have this whole idea of how an organized military engagement in a trinity-based system should go and that colors my perspective of it. With lines of tanks and fighters etching towards the line of engagement while bombarded by mages and healed by buffers. Rogues tip-toeing through the chaos to get kills in the backline, while rangers try to flank so that they don't have to shoot through the shield wall.

Anyways, I'd appreciate feedback from the perspective of the roles you play.

Gbolt

OP, if all points would be removed for rogue class as you say, then such class would be light armor wearing squishy melee wet noodle damage dealer, that is easy to see and kill.

And keep in mind, this game will have hard counters, meaning for example that heavy armor wearing classes (like tanks, fighters) would be good counter to light armor classes, where robe armor classes (casters) would be counter to heavy armor classes and then light armor counters robe armor.

So overall, some classes will be very good to kill some other specific classes, but also get killed easily by other type of classes.

And as Steve mentioned, balancing is intended to be done in group play, not in 1v1.

DaRougaroux

Caeryl wrote: »

DaRougaroux wrote: »

Valento92 wrote: »

Whiskiz wrote: »

Valento92 wrote: »

I share the concern. Being able to be invisible, agile, have defensive maneuvers is expected, but it should have very low hp because being invisible is the greatest defense one could have, and only weak/medium-powered heal-over-time skills if any. Rogue should also be quite proficient at poisoning; it's part of the archetype characteristics.

Erm, how can you class invisibility as a great defence when you lose it after combat starts? Unless you have a major cd, single time use, combat stealth?

Well dude, you're a bit ahead in development. Folks are discussing class designs, they could be implemented in a plethora of ways. GW2 thief is OP, FF ninja is underpowered, I guess Intrepid could base themselves off of countless games to avoid this mechanics from being OP while still being fair and fun.

GW2: Theif was greatly OP.
WoW: Rogues, LoL OP.
Rift: Once again, LoL OP
ESO: Nightblades, OP

I mean can we bring some friggin sanity to stealth classes, that's all I'm saying. Can we end the ridiculous cycle?

Sounds like you just have zero inclination to actually use stealth counters or account for surviving burst.

Hmmmm. Your Avatar, check. Your irrational rebutle for defending broken mechanics, check. Yep, Rogue here. Anyone got a flare?

DaRougaroux

Gbolt wrote: »

OP, if all points would be removed for rogue class as you say, then such class would be light armor wearing squishy melee wet noodle damage dealer, that is easy to see and kill.

And keep in mind, this game will have hard counters, meaning for example that heavy armor wearing classes (like tanks, fighters) would be good counter to light armor classes, where robe armor classes (casters) would be counter to heavy armor classes and then light armor counters robe armor.

So overall, some classes will be very good to kill some other specific classes, but also get killed easily by other type of classes.

And as Steve mentioned, balancing is intended to be done in group play, not in 1v1.

See I get that to a point, you're right, he did say that, BUT, if you make one class able to be the best 1v1 class in the game, it WILL affect grp play, its inevitable. You will have more people playing that one particular class, just to have an edge. That's the flaw behind that kind of a design.

Caeryl

DaRougaroux wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

DaRougaroux wrote: »

Valento92 wrote: »

Whiskiz wrote: »

Valento92 wrote: »

I share the concern. Being able to be invisible, agile, have defensive maneuvers is expected, but it should have very low hp because being invisible is the greatest defense one could have, and only weak/medium-powered heal-over-time skills if any. Rogue should also be quite proficient at poisoning; it's part of the archetype characteristics.

Erm, how can you class invisibility as a great defence when you lose it after combat starts? Unless you have a major cd, single time use, combat stealth?

Well dude, you're a bit ahead in development. Folks are discussing class designs, they could be implemented in a plethora of ways. GW2 thief is OP, FF ninja is underpowered, I guess Intrepid could base themselves off of countless games to avoid this mechanics from being OP while still being fair and fun.

GW2: Theif was greatly OP.
WoW: Rogues, LoL OP.
Rift: Once again, LoL OP
ESO: Nightblades, OP

I mean can we bring some friggin sanity to stealth classes, that's all I'm saying. Can we end the ridiculous cycle?

Sounds like you just have zero inclination to actually use stealth counters or account for surviving burst.

Hmmmm. Your Avatar, check. Your irrational rebutle for defending broken mechanics, check. Yep, Rogue here. Anyone got a flare?

My icon is an alchemist character and I main healers lmao

Atama

I wear a mask all the time in real life and I’m not a rogue either...

Lfmr

OnibakaEX wrote: »

Flawed original thread post, but if we back off with the personal attacks, there might be an interesting game design exercise here. I'm gonna try and hijack it towards that.

How would you build a stealth melee character, so that it feels fulfilling to play, while having exploitable flaws?
I'm gonna give it a go.

What should an Assassin's role in a trinity-based PVP system be?
I see them as back-line infiltrators. They should be able to sneak to the juicy targets(mages/buffers) and ideally take one(or two) out. Then have a fair escape mechanism that makes their exit the hectic part of the engagement. Once out of danger - rinse and repeat.

As direct 1vs1 interactions between players of similar equipment and level go:
An Assassin should not be able to win against Tank & Fighter classes.
Should be able to take care of Mage when the Mage is caught off guard, but escape or die if detected at mid/long range.
Should kill Buffers when they're caught off guard, but be disabled at mid/long range. Essentially failing the attempt and having to back off and reset before trying again.
Archers should destroy it at range... not certain what the proper close range interaction should be, based on armor I guess it should not be able to explode them, so they're not ideal target.

What skills would I put on an Assassin(and on his opposition) to ensure this interaction?
- Counterable infiltration skill - ideally Stealth, as it gives so much to the encounter. And by Stealth I don't mean "increased speed translucency" as both aspects of that are just WRONG on every level. I mean full-on invisibility with a decrease in speed, as the character is putting an effort in not being detected rather than usain-bolting towards the enemy's squishy bits. And I said "counterable" because having "detection" abilities on other classes is essential to the game of hide and seek that I want out of it. I'm thinking a combination of passive short range AOE around tanks + active target AOE on buffers, giving them another thing to do in an engagement. As far as cooldown goes, you can make it 3 seconds for all I care, as long as activation is possible on a meaningful distance away from any enemy.
- Escape mechanism - ideally something along the lines of a displacement/short distance teleportation with automatic deselect for enemy tab skills. After that you just hoof it towards your mates or stealth if you think the enemy won't find you with detection. At that point the name of the game is cat and mouse as the enemy forces decide to chase or regroup... or have to deal with the rest of your guys.
- As far as the attack skills I think you can flavor him however you like - burst dmg, poison, bleed, whatever fits what you're going for. Heck, for the sake of teamplay you might put some Mark-equivalent that grants archers extra range/dmg against target.

And that's it really...
The goal with creating a burst damage character should be to enable that play you'll be telling your friends about for weeks, while not mentioning the 20+ other times where you made an error died or ran away.

I don't know... Does that sound fun.. or fair for that matter? I have this whole idea of how an organized military engagement in a trinity-based system should go and that colors my perspective of it. With lines of tanks and fighters etching towards the line of engagement while bombarded by mages and healed by buffers. Rogues tip-toeing through the chaos to get kills in the backline, while rangers try to flank so that they don't have to shoot through the shield wall.

Anyways, I'd appreciate feedback from the perspective of the roles you play.

Always have been against the concept of Rogues only being viable in combat when they ambush opponents, and a class that only gets the kill 1/21 times doesn't seem very balanced. If Rogues NEED to get an opener to win a fight, it makes their best counter other rogues, which is not a healthy balance choice.

Rogues SHOULD be able to win against any class, although some classes should be difficult to win against, and some should be easier, for example, Rogues SHOULD generally win fights when they ambush Mages / other ranged DPS, but if the target has no counter play, or no chance to come out on top, it just becomes a boring game of rock paper scissors.

Rogues should not generally outperform fighters at fighting, but if they cannot, then why even give them swords / daggers? A skilled Rogue should be able to beat a fighter with some difficulty.

The reason why rogues are so broken is because they can pick what fights they want, and they can even choose to leave the fight if they want. Why would a Rogue ever choose to pick a losing fight? If you do not have true invisibility, it sort of removes that safety net, especially in the case of Restealth, since a perceptive player will still be able to see you and attack you.

Also, as you get closer to a target as a Rogue, you get easier and easier to spot as a shimmering translucent blob, openers are not guaranteed unless your target is really careless, and Rogues should be able to hold their own even in a botched opener.

A successful opener should not be a guaranteed advantage you are given, but also not the crutch by which the class is defined.

Bardtic

Man, this seems like the WoW Classic forums all of a sudden.

Atama

I played a Rogue in WoW as my main for years but I went Combat. The stealth was useful but I was mostly an in-your-face melee DPS. It was fun until they nerfed it and it stopped being viable (then went away and was replaced by another spec when they dumbed everything down and took away talent trees).

I liked that you didn’t have to be in stealth to be useful. You managed combos, bleeds, and poisons to maximize DPS. I expect that being a Rogue in AoC will be more than stealth also.

SamsonPaule

All i know is that my falcon better be able to spot out stealthies

MangoRinds

I agree with your concept that things can be busted, and I love rogues. It's just a matter of strengths vs weaknesses, could be any class. Too many games just give new classes/champions/characters EVERYTHING. I can stealth and assassinate, but if I get caught I'm also beefy. And I have cc, but I have cc breakers. It's not just MMOs, Mobas are guilty too. How many new MOBA characters can you guys thinkg of that have like 4 effects on each of their abilities (Damage + Slow + Root + CC Reduction + Att Spd Buff)? Lots of "Mary Sue" characters. I don't see the issue if they are good at one thing, but suck another to the point that their weakness can be exploited just as much as them catching you off guard.

BlackBrony

Game won't be balanced around 1 vs 1, so it doesn't really matter. Balance will be done around 8, that's the composition of a party.

Glory

Just my 2 cents on stealth. I'd like to see stealth work one of two ways.

1) Have stealth/invisibility not be permanent. I think this is what leads to a lot of abusive play. If not permanent then it actually allows for counter-play.

2) Allow any permanent invisibility to only exist if you remain still. (Movement would break it)

I've played a lot of mmos and I feel stealth is always a problem when it is permanent and you can move freely. If either of these two scenarios I presented exist. The mechanic has enough counter-play for it to exist, be interesting but not abusive.

HiddenDaggerInn

As a stealther in many games DAoC, Warhammer online, Archeage Unchained and so on I feel warhammer and archeage did a good job with the limited time stealth. DAoC while full stealth was great for scouting, their openers were not very balanced.

Of course for those worried about stealth a stealth seeing skill on another class is always useful to help balance. I personally would prefer total invisability as opposed to a shimmer for no longer than 45 seconds .

Anyone who has played stealth before knows the rush that is had when walking in stealth and having a red name in stealth appear next to you passing by. It's a mini game in it's own right.

DeJoke

DaRougaroux wrote: »

See I get that to a point, you're right, he did say that, BUT, if you make one class able to be the best 1v1 class in the game, it WILL affect grp play, its inevitable. You will have more people playing that one particular class, just to have an edge. That's the flaw behind that kind of a design.

The thing is, with hard counters, should one class might be the best 1v1 verse MOST classes, but then people will counter it by playing the hard counter class, and then that class may be deemed the strongest as everyone else went for the class that beats MOST classes. I think at the end of the day. Most people in AoC will just play the class they want to play the most.

But back to the rogue's c.

I usually play a rogue type class. I like the idea of high risk and high reward in melee range DPS. Where's a warrior may do similar damage or more as well as be tankier. It's not my preferred playstyle. I know Steven plays DnD so I hope Rogues will get a multiplier to their damage when attacking from behind, but otherwise, be weaker than Warriors. It just feels more rewarding when you pull off combos than just going head to head in a battle.

And it seems Rogues are already have nerfed invisibility. Sure, the first 3-4 weeks, it will seem as invisible as being not there. But seasoned starcraft players will tell you otherwise. And the stealth will be as good as nothing once people get an eye for it.

But it should be fun regardless, as Rogues can be powerhouses with their abilities due to the nature of themselves. They're not ranged. They're not tanky. Which is why rogues tend to be overturned to make up for the bulk of the terrible rogue players. As, again, they're high risk, high reward. Any pro rogue will usually create huge havoc for the more casual player. Rogues are all about outplaying, gaining an advantage where they otherwise wouldn't.

Apart from the invisible skill, they have yet to list any abilities for the rogue, so it will be interesting to see how they will design will come along. Be it poisons, or bleed and what the average TTK will be one we're in-game, not just for the rogue but for the game in general.

SickBubblegum

As mentioned from previous posters:

Rogues will have 'op' stealth mechanics due to being squishy, having less survivability and defensive features. This class has always been an ambush class and relies on picking and choosing fights to open on and quickly get out of there before detection.

I understand the frustrations about rogues being able to stealth and have high damage but this comes with defensive sacrifices (depending on the games ofc)

MMORPG classes are generally designed with rock paper scissors in mind, im sure the stealthy classes can be annoying to some degree but I feel there will be mechanics which will prevent them from being 'op'. What is more op, stealth with some damage, cc and low survivability or no stealth, tons of health, armor and healing capabilities along with cc?

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