Stevens reply on family summoning at Ashes Pathfinders #84

Sounds great how he explained its "anti-cheat" mechanic. 30sec-1min cast time for the summon and a 30min CD on the ability. But, anyone else concerned how easy its to chain it? For 10 people it still means 5 people needs to travel, but if everyone has chained their summon to 1 more player, its still only 5 needing traveling. Boosting your raid/gank/war party from 5 to 10 in 1min, they can then summon 5 more people and so on. Adding a 30min CD on the ability for the person being summoned aswell, would solve this no? Or add a reagent cost to the summon. Or some kind of PvP debuff on whoever is summoned. Just abit worried about shock PvP partys with this mechanic.

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daveywavey

Ehrgeiz wrote: »

Remember it is still a game. If you want absolute no teleportation and risks by just going from a to b then go and play real live.

Teleporting was fine in ESO. I used it to play with loads of other players, and if anyone needed help, I could jump to them and help out. I've nothing against it as a function.

My only issue with the way AoC is doing it is that they're saying: "Nope, no teleporting, cos we want the map to feel big", and then suddenly there's Family Teleporting. Either include teleporting or don't!

Vashramire

I think the way it's meant to be used is if your friend is out doing quests, a dungeon, a caravan escort, or something and you want to join them. You likely play in the same general area and quests won't send you to the other side of the map. It's a matter of shorter range convenience for maybe a town or 2 away and I presume the CD is long. Maybe if the range wasn't made map wide and reigned in to a town or 2 away. The map still can feel big if you can save a 5 min walk once an hour or more.

daveywavey

Vashramire wrote: »

I think the way it's meant to be used is if your friend is out doing quests, a dungeon, a caravan escort, or something and you want to join them. You likely play in the same general area and quests won't send you to the other side of the map. It's a matter of shorter range convenience for maybe a town or 2 away and I presume the CD is long. Maybe if the range wasn't made map wide and reigned in to a town or 2 away. The map still can feel big if you can save a 5 min walk once an hour or more.

I get that, but if that's the reason for it, why restrict it to only a few players? In other games I've played, I've played with more than just a handful of players. Why restrict it here?

Irohnic

daveywavey wrote: »

Ehrgeiz wrote: »

Remember it is still a game. If you want absolute no teleportation and risks by just going from a to b then go and play real live.

Teleporting was fine in ESO. I used it to play with loads of other players, and if anyone needed help, I could jump to them and help out. I've nothing against it as a function.

My only issue with the way AoC is doing it is that they're saying: "Nope, no teleporting, cos we want the map to feel big", and then suddenly there's Family Teleporting. Either include teleporting or don't!

many people enjoy leveling a toon with a couple friends, family, guildies, whatever. If you don't have some sort of fast travel mechanic this becomes a huge chore because you either can a.) only play the game when the other person is on so you don't end up in different places or b.)walk long distances everytime you log on together just to be ablet to start playing the game (this map is going to be HUGE). Meanwhile if you make fast travel/teleportation available to everyone everywhere the world feels small no matter how much content and space you put in it. I think the family system is a good compromise which is exactly what a game is supposed to be, a compromise between enabling you to do things you can't do IRL while presenting challenges, rules and realism that makes those things interesting and fun

daveywavey

Irohnic wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Ehrgeiz wrote: »

Remember it is still a game. If you want absolute no teleportation and risks by just going from a to b then go and play real live.

Teleporting was fine in ESO. I used it to play with loads of other players, and if anyone needed help, I could jump to them and help out. I've nothing against it as a function.

My only issue with the way AoC is doing it is that they're saying: "Nope, no teleporting, cos we want the map to feel big", and then suddenly there's Family Teleporting. Either include teleporting or don't!

many people enjoy leveling a toon with a couple friends, family, guildies, whatever. If you don't have some sort of fast travel mechanic this becomes a huge chore because you either can a.) only play the game when the other person is on so you don't end up in different places or b.)walk long distances everytime you log on together just to be ablet to start playing the game (this map is going to be HUGE). Meanwhile if you make fast travel/teleportation available to everyone everywhere the world feels small no matter how much content and space you put in it. I think the family system is a good compromise which is exactly what a game is supposed to be, a compromise between enabling you to do things you can't do IRL while presenting challenges, rules and realism that makes those things interesting and fun

Absolutely. And that's fine, assuming you that you have no more than 7 family, friends, guildies, etc, that you enjoy playing with regularly.

How many family, friends, guildies, etc, have you wanted to play with in your previous games? Would a family of 8 (you and 7 others) be big enough for that?

Sathrago

Honestly the two things i can see this being used to "exploit" would be having 3 crafters of equipment ping pong the 3rd player back and forth between two cities to sell said equipment.

The second thing would be guilds setting up families across the guild so that only 5 people need to head to a location and summon the other 32. Now scale this up and you have the mass zerg rush teleportation that they had issues with as a main reason for no fast travel. Unfortunately I have no idea what to do currently to alleviate either case...

Vashramire

daveywavey wrote: »

I get that, but if that's the reason for it, why restrict it to only a few players? In other games I've played, I've played with more than just a handful of players. Why restrict it here?

Last I heard your family could be up to 8 people, which amounts to a basic dungeons worth. I'm guessing it's for a mild convenience with people you are really close to which still makes the world feel big. Imagine if it was available to all guild members. I look at it as a QoL improvement. Aside from people trying to exploit it, it might see most use when leveling or starting dungeons/raids. I'm not a dev but that seems to be the angle they are taking with the info they've given.

Sathrago

This is the info currently up on the wiki for the family summon:

Long duration cast (30 seconds to a minute) with an approximate 30 minute cooldown that slowly summons each of your family members to your location (up to eight members).

Players cannot be summoned in the following cases:

While in combat, if they are corrupted, or if they are engaged in an event, such as node wars, guild wars, sieges, arenas or participation in the caravan system.

|If they have mats, gatherables or certs in their inventory.

This will be tested in Alpha-2.

Irohnic

daveywavey wrote: »

Irohnic wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Ehrgeiz wrote: »

Remember it is still a game. If you want absolute no teleportation and risks by just going from a to b then go and play real live.

Teleporting was fine in ESO. I used it to play with loads of other players, and if anyone needed help, I could jump to them and help out. I've nothing against it as a function.

My only issue with the way AoC is doing it is that they're saying: "Nope, no teleporting, cos we want the map to feel big", and then suddenly there's Family Teleporting. Either include teleporting or don't!

many people enjoy leveling a toon with a couple friends, family, guildies, whatever. If you don't have some sort of fast travel mechanic this becomes a huge chore because you either can a.) only play the game when the other person is on so you don't end up in different places or b.)walk long distances everytime you log on together just to be ablet to start playing the game (this map is going to be HUGE). Meanwhile if you make fast travel/teleportation available to everyone everywhere the world feels small no matter how much content and space you put in it. I think the family system is a good compromise which is exactly what a game is supposed to be, a compromise between enabling you to do things you can't do IRL while presenting challenges, rules and realism that makes those things interesting and fun

Absolutely. And that's fine, assuming you that you have no more than 7 family, friends, guildies, etc, that you enjoy playing with regularly.

How many family, friends, guildies, etc, have you wanted to play with in your previous games? Would a family of 8 (you and 7 others) be big enough for that?

ya even just 5 would be enough for my purposes. I'm just one person though, I'm not sure what the average opinion is on this. I see the current family size limitation as enabling co-op/small-group leveling but still requiring most members of a randomly thrown together guild group to have to walk to a given dungeon/raid location. So when I say 5 suits my purposes, I'm saying there are only that many people that I would try to level with for long periods of time. Other guildies and friends just play the game independently and group up for group content sometimes. In those cases I think always having instant travel to group up is not necessary and could hurt the play experience.

There's definitely some room for abuse that people have pointed out in this thread, such as organizing your guild/raid team to be able to mobilize large amounts of players (zergs) via the family teleports. I think since this is not the intended design Intrepid will look to add mechanics in to prevent such actions (either anticipatory or reactionary to growing "meta" trends). things like cooldowns on the teleport ability, level limitations to prevent lvl 1 summoner characters, long cast times for the teleport, a combat debuff immediatley after teleporting, etc. I have confidence that Intrepid is considering many different options and if it comes down to it, Steven has expressed that preserving his vision of the top-end competitive play of the game is a priority, so I think they would just remove a QOL feature like the family teleport alltogether before they let it become an abusable "meta-defining" system among the hardcore guilds.

As for the issue of family teleport being used to shuttle crafted goods, that's definitely a tough one to solve with the current system of no bound items. I'm fresh out of ideas for that other than putting a limit on the number of crafted items you can have in your inventory upon teleporting.

Tyrantor

It makes sense that the total is 8 since group size is 8.

Cruore

I think teleporting is a mistake, any form of it. You make the world large, make mounts rare, try to get people to interact and feel the world is alive and full. Then you add family teleportation.
It goes against everything you've tried to implement thus far, plus, I GUARANTEE IT, players will find exploits.
For the love of God don't do it. The game will not suffer from not having teleportation.

maouw

If you're a hardcore player and you have casual friends on the other side of the world, doesn't it make sense to play with them on an alt?

It's a much better experience when everyone is playing from the same level, rather than you playing on yoru main being like, "this is for you, I gathered all this gear during the week, teleport to me and let's do ________". Compared to, "guys, we're all noobs, let's find a way to ____"

As much as the first lets you flex on your friends, it destroys their perception of value - like kids with an inheritance going on a spending spree. I reckon your friends will have a better experience if you do the latter.

daveywavey

But, if you're going to open up teleportation to Family Members "cos you play with them a lot", then why not open it up to Guilds too, cos you'll likely play with them a lot, too. In the previous MMOs that I've played, I've often found friends to play with through the Guilds system, and there have been a lot more than seven that I've played with on a regular basis.

What if there's a bunch of people that you really really get on with, and like playing with, but you can't join their Family for raids cos they already have a Tank, and your other characters aren't levelled enough yet to be suitable? You just don't get to play with those particular friends, cos they're going to be focusing on their 8? Or, do they all get to be teleported to the dungeon instantly, while you have to ride there for 20mins?

The whole Family system baffles me. I don't see why it's relevant. I mean, the "shagging your spouse for a bonus buff" thing just seems perverted. I've known female players in MMOs who've been subjected to some hideous harrassment - and here there's going to be a system for single horny nerds to try and 'get their virtual shag on'. This isn't going to make that any better.

Sathrago

daveywavey wrote: »

But, if you're going to open up teleportation to Family Members "cos you play with them a lot", then why not open it up to Guilds too, cos you'll likely play with them a lot, too. In the previous MMOs that I've played, I've often found friends to play with through the Guilds system, and there have been a lot more than seven that I've played with on a regular basis.

I mean this is basically what the function will ultimately do. It will allow guilds to mass summon to areas to contest whatever needs fightin over. No clue how they could stop that from being the case.

any competitive guild with a brain will exploit this.

Noaani

daveywavey wrote: »

But, if you're going to open up teleportation to Family Members "cos you play with them a lot", then why not open it up to Guilds too, cos you'll likely play with them a lot, too. In the previous MMOs that I've played, I've often found friends to play with through the Guilds system, and there have been a lot more than seven that I've played with on a regular basis.

They don't need to open it up to guilds.

If it is a part of the family system, then guilds wanting to contest content (or contest other players) will simply require all members to participate in their summoning family.

Basically, what something like this will do is mean that the family system isn't able to function as a family system if you want to be in a guild. The family system will be an extension of the guild system, and guilds will dictate what family you need to be in.

I've said it before, but this system sounds to me like something Steven made up on the spot in an interview. It has not had the same consideration put in to it as other systems in the game - even with the retcon of making it not work if players have raw materials on them (which does nothing other than prevent players using this in place of the caravan system).

daveywavey

Noaani wrote: »

It has not had the same consideration put in to it as other systems in the game - even with the retcon of making it not work if players have raw materials on them (which does nothing other than prevent players using this in place of the caravan system).

Yeah. If we're going down the no fast-travel, huge world route, then it just needs taking out.

LieutenantToast

Heya folks - we'll definitely be looking for more of your feedback around loopholes and "unintended uses" of family summons as we get closer to testing them, and some folks in here have already brought up some interesting points!

I'm going to go ahead and merge this in with another thread that was recently popular on the very same topic

feel free to continue the discussion here!

FuryBladeborne

Ehrgeiz wrote: »

"Nope, no teleporting, cos we want the map to feel big"

Then you finish whatever you doing at the location that you teleported to and realize that you don't have teleport back...

Unfortunately, these threads are going to keep going on about what people think will happen until Alpha 2 when we can finally test it and go from there

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Family_summon

More info showing the importance of map size and how much fast (and faster) travel is planned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZm9WQvyviw&list=PLC2LYKZszA3Ky9T7VqiIE-jPYidrtwXRT&index=16

FuryBladeborne

daveywavey wrote: »

But, if you're going to open up teleportation to Family Members "cos you play with them a lot", then why not open it up to Guilds too,...

If you open up teleportation between a large number of players such as a full guild then travel time will eventually be overcome by entire guilds for most gameplay sessions.

Restricting the group size to 8 allows a normal party size of 8 player to play together. The current plan of 30 minute cooldown will hopefully be changed to 16-20 hours (once per day) which would mean that very little teleporting would be happening.

FuryBladeborne

Noaani wrote: »

With the system the way it is right now, what is going to happen is people will put alts in various places that others will want ports to. This will include all metropolis nodes, and potentially other out of the way areas as per the game worlds design.

While I agree this is possible, teleporting to such locations is not what a lot people are probably thinking. i.e. They can't teleport with materials; so, looking for a port out of a dungeon will require dropping your mats (the apparent primary loot in Ashes). Going to some out of the way place? Sure, but your probably not getting a teleport back...

Noaani wrote: »

When the buyer finds a seller, the buyer invites the sellers alt to their family, the seller ports the buyer, leaves the family and then that cooldown that used to be only about how long it takes to be able to join another family is not a cooldown on how soon that alt can sell a port.

This is strong argument that shows an exploit that should come up in testing. An easy fix would be to put the summon ability for a newly joined family member on CD for a sufficient time period such as 20 hours or so. Perhaps even days if that turns out to be best in testing.

Another option would be that family members must sign up together at a specific building rather than some kind of join family across any distance and from any location system. Or perhaps the new member can join anywhere in the world provided that at least one family member is near the newly accepted family member (that member could just hand a family invite to the newcomer).

Actually, it seems really easy to overcome the problem of random people joining families and teleporting players.

Noaani wrote: »

If you want to share something with that other player you are going to play with, then the only way to do that is to set access to those things (housing, storage etc) to "family".

As such, anyone else that you are in a family with will need to be someone you trust with access to all of that.

Incorrect.
"Personal storage chests may be set to permit access by family or guild members.[17][19]"
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Families

Noaani wrote: »

You are probably not just going to join a family with every random player you meet in game - chances are, they won't want to join a family with you.

Right, your limited to 8 at any given time and the intent is to play with them regularly. Not to family up with every random player you meet.

Noaani wrote: »

The most likely thing for you is that your family will only ever consist of you, that other person, and your alts.

That's really going to depend on the individual person and how necessary it is to have a regular group to run dungeons and other group content that requires 8 or less people.

If it turns out that dungeon mechanics feel more like a mini raid and people will greatly benefit from having a regular group for that content, then the players who do the content probably will have regular group. We will just have to see.

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