The only thing I can think of to stop this is to ban the organized use of family summoning as a written rule considering it an exploit... And good luck enforcing that.
But wouldn't that include if you have planned to summon your friend when he gets home from work?
I mean, that is organization, of sorts.
What I mean is the intent and use in a guild setting for the purposes of fast traveling your entire guild or large parts of it to a single point.
The rule is more of a joke than a suggestion this would make things needlessly difficult for the moderation team.
Yeah, I gathered that it was a joke.
Since some people will take it seriously though, my main objection to a suggestion like that is that it is poor development to have a game where players can do a thing, know before release that the thing is possible, but simply tell players they can't do the thing.
If you don't want players doing a thing, as soon as you realize that players could do it, you need to make it so they can't.
The only exception to this in any game that I have seen is when Trion said blocking other characters was not allowed - and they only did this because they have literally zero control over the actual development of the game, and so enforcing it as a rule was the only path available to them.
I would expect better of a company that is developing their own game.
My suggestion to people that need a feature like this in a game is to play a game where a feature like this makes sense - which is clearly not Ashes.
I'm curious how you already know Ashes doesn't need a feature like this? As far as I know it hasn't even made it into the game build(s) to be tested, the game is a far way from launch I think your own prediction put that in 2023 or 24? lol
I'll ask you again can you not wait to see how it works before explaining to the rest of us why it's not needed?
Tyrantor
Master Assassin
(Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
Book suggestions:
Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
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FuryBladeborneMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'm pretty sure that restricting family summon to once per day per account per server would block any abuses that you are referring to.
Not really.
The need to fast travel to get to a top end PvE encounter won't happen more than once a day, so the people using it for this will never be limited by that.
Obviously on a developed server there will be multiple major bosses and dungeons available within a given 24 hour period. Having more teleports per account or character available would make it possible to do more of these fights. Restricting the number of teleports such as a reduction to 1 per day per account on a server would reduce the potential total benefit of the family summoning. Restricting total summons does limit potential abuse.
I think you might be trying to say: will not stop 100% of abuse rather than will never be limited.
As to the type of raid spawn mechanics, there are likely to be a number of different systems employed, for different purposes. Encounters designed for all to participate will likely be the kind of thing that spawns in the open - so that all can participate easily. Raid encounters that spawn in dungeons (which we know will be a thing) are more for individual guild participation (and guild competition). Obviously, it is the latter ones here that I am referring to.
This is also why abusing a summons (if it were in game) would be the only way to kill this content. My expectation of these encounters is that Intrepid will have them spawn at specific and set times during each servers prime time. There is also likely to be a server announcement when they spawn.
However, even if they are based on a spawn window (the mechanic that has the most variation) with no notification, top end guilds will figure out their window, and have a spotter. I have yet to play a game with contested encounters that are actually worth fighting over where top end guilds haven't always known they were up with 2 minutes of them spawning - so this aspect of it is already established.
From there, it is simply a matter of who gets there in force first. Obviously, the way to do that is to use the summons, if it is in the game.
That was several assumptions on systems. A race is not required to be designed into such fights. For example, in Guild Wars 2, world bosses spawned on a regular timer at specific locations daily. We don't know if that will happen here. What we have been told is,
There will be global (server-wide) announcements/notifications of important events.[20]
Such content may be based around a race to the static objective or one that was randomly chosen from a few known locations (either of which would turn family summoning into a ridiculously abused system); or, it may not include a race to the objective at all.
As to the market aspect, the reason the family summons is useful is that it will allow you to transport finished items and coin in either direction, without the requisite time investment in traveling. It is the ability to avoid having to transport products from one market to the other that is the abuse here. The very least this does is give players access to markets that should require a significant time investment and risk (via PvP) to be able to access.
If a player wanted access to all five metropolis markets, that would likely take a major portion of their play time to accomplish without the summons (the idea of seperate markets would suggest that they don't expect players to sell in all markets). With a summons, it is something they can dedicate the last 10 minutes of their play time to.
With this one, there is also the likely need for citizenship in the node you want to sell in - which means this exploit is likely to be a collaberation between multiple players with different products to sell. This also totally negates all potential restrictions like character level, family size, cooldowns etc.
Need for citizenship to sell in a node seems unlikely since we are supposed to trade at long distances to increase the value of goods.
It appears that it will be possible to pickup purchased goods with an alt in a distant market and transport those goods via caravan once a server has become developed. Or, dependent upon server development and exactly where you need to travel, travel carrying goods may be accomplished on even a low level character using the other means of faster travel.
Faster travel in Ashes of Creation refers to.[4]
Player ridden mounts.[4]
Mounts will have varied speeds.[8]
Flight paths between nodes within a specific region.[3][1][4]
Airships between scientific metropolises.[9]
Teleportation between scientific metropolises and their vassal nodes.[9]
Summon abuse may not be getting much of an advantage at collecting purchases.
As you pointed out, selling items (finished goods only) looks abusable. This is a tough problem since players should be able to teleport with gear on.
A solution could be, summoning a character causes all equipped and carried gear to become temporarily bound for a period long enough to discourage such abuse with all but the most valuable items. Say, a temporary binding of 15-30 days during which the items could only be gotten rid of by selling as vendor trash to NPCs or destroyed.
I'll ask you again can you not wait to see how it works before explaining to the rest of us why it's not needed?
I'm pretty sure all he's done is bring up the point that this is a system rife for abuse, and literally against one of the stated pillars of the game, size is important. The lack of flying mounts, and (prior to this) heavily restricted fast travel has been a marketed selling point in the games favor since day 1.
And he has already brought up the obvious reason this is not one of the things that will be readily visible in testing environments. Groups do not act the same in testing environments as they do when the gates open launch day. My goals in testing is to get a balanced game. My goal day one is to WIN. And any group that is intending on making a mark in their server will use whatever advantage possibly offered to make their goals happen.
By the time people think oh this shouldn't have been in the release, the damage is already done, and can't be undone without severely harming the game. It is well within reason to think the stated benefits do not outweigh the concerns, and thus should not be implemented.
I'll ask you again can you not wait to see how it works before explaining to the rest of us why it's not needed?
I'm pretty sure all he's done is bring up the point that this is a system rife for abuse, and literally against one of the stated pillars of the game, size is important.
Can you show me the "Pillar of the game" that states "Size is important"? You're both simply projecting your own dislike(s) on others and trying to mask it as "that's not the design" when in fact it is considering the developers are actively trying to design it as such.
Tyrantor
Master Assassin
(Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
Book suggestions:
Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
Can you show me the "Pillar of the game" that states "Size is important"?
I'm a lot newer here than you are, and even I've heard them say this a number of times.
Both are things the developers want to do. The family summons design is to allow players to reconnect with each other quickly that would otherwise have to spend a large amount of time to catch up to friends that went on playing without them. This is a design choice due to the pillar of the game you guys are referring to. They want the world to feel massive and travel to be meaningful.
These two ideas clash currently, now if they can come up with a better system that reduces or gets rid of this clash then I am all ears. The best thing I can come up with is a once a day limit.
I'll ask you again can you not wait to see how it works before explaining to the rest of us why it's not needed?
The reverse is true.
It is easier to add in a QoL feature to an existing game that proves to need it than it is to remove a QoL feature from a game that proves to be a negative.
Once in the live game, it will not be taken out. Therefore, if a wait and see approach is to be taken, that approach should be from the perspective of "wait and see if it is needed, as then we could add it" rather than "add it anyway, and if it is a negative we are all screwed".
So sure, I totally agree with the premise of your statement that we should want to see if the game needs it - you are just coming at that from the wrong direction.
now if they can come up with a better system that reduces or gets rid of this clash then I am all ears. The best thing I can come up with is a once a day limit.
Indeed.
I am not against the idea of people being able to play together that want to, I am against the introduction of a system that will be abused in as many ways as a summons will.
If they can develop a system that won't be abused in such an easy and obvious manner - and is not restricted by cheesy, artificial and arbitrary mechanics - then I'm all for it.
Thing is, as I have said, the idea of the system is to get players to content faster, and the way it will be abused is by getting players to content faster. There is no real way to have the system usable without it being abused.
I'll ask you again can you not wait to see how it works before explaining to the rest of us why it's not needed?
I'm pretty sure all he's done is bring up the point that this is a system rife for abuse, and literally against one of the stated pillars of the game, size is important.
Can you show me the "Pillar of the game" that states "Size is important"? You're both simply projecting your own dislike(s) on others and trying to mask it as "that's not the design" when in fact it is considering the developers are actively trying to design it as such.
What you need to do is pay more attention to the livestreams and interviews, not just what is posted on the wiki.
The wiki doesn't contain informaiton on what Intrepid intend for a specific system, it only contains information on how the system is expected to work.
Steven has said many, many times that they want travel and distance in Ashes to be meaningful. He has said that one of the aspects of caravans that is important to the game is the notion that players can't spot one on the move, and then gather players together to attack it. He has said that the lack of fast travel in Ashes is the biggest single deterrent they have designed to prevent zergs ruining the game.
These things are all incompatible with a family summons. They are not things that are listed in the wiki, because they do not detail how the system is planned to work. However, they are detailing what they want to get out of the systems - which is even more important for us players to know, because they can always change the way the system works in order for it to achieve the goal of said system.
I don't for a second believe you have spent any time listening to interviews or livestreams if you are not fully aware that the intention of the game is for distance to mean something.
I'll ask you again can you not wait to see how it works before explaining to the rest of us why it's not needed?
The reverse is true.
It is easier to add in a QoL feature to an existing game that proves to need it than it is to remove a QoL feature from a game that proves to be a negative.
Once in the live game, it will not be taken out. Therefore, if a wait and see approach is to be taken, that approach should be from the perspective of "wait and see if it is needed, as then we could add it" rather than "add it anyway, and if it is a negative we are all screwed".
So sure, I totally agree with the premise of your statement that we should want to see if the game needs it - you are just coming at that from the wrong direction.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here. The inconvenience it would cause for casual players by causing massive travel/down time to group with their friends would absolutely ruin the game. Think about the day in age we live in - everything in your life is almost instantaneously available to you. The concept of "run 30+ minutes to play with your friends because" isn't something that peoples pre-programmed brains of the 2020's and beyond are going to be able to process.
Tyrantor
Master Assassin
(Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
Book suggestions:
Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
Obviously on a developed server there will be multiple major bosses and dungeons available within a given 24 hour period.
Steven has said he expects each server to have a total of 12 - 15 such spawns at any given point. If they spawn roughly weekly (which is reasonable, and on par with every other game), then that means 2 per day, as a general, rough average.
That was several assumptions on systems.
No, it was going over all possible systems taht could be used to perform one function (well, otehr than forced spawning).
Other than forced spawning, encounters can either be spawned at a specific time, or they can spawn in a specific window of time. The only variation to this is that both of these can be either based on set clocks, or based on the last time the encounter was killed.
I wasn't making assumptions as to what the game would do, I was pointing out the possible mechanics they could use to spawn encounters, and stating what top end guilds would do for each spawn type (as in, what I have done in past games when each spawn type is used).
If the spawn timer is a set time, we will simply port in 2 or 3 minutes before it is due to spawn. Other guilds may take the time to run there, and good for them - they are wasting a lot of time that we are not though, and will soon see the value in porting in.
If the spawn is within a window of time, we will have a spotter of some sort to tell when the encounter spawns. Since windows like this are usually open for several days, it isn't really concievable that a guild will wait at the spawn location for that period of time, thus the first guild to realise the encounter is up, get to it and get the kill is obviously going to be the one that gets the rewards. It should be obvious that the guild with the porting network will always get this over the guild without it.
There will be global (server-wide) announcements/notifications of important events.[20]
Castle sieges.[20]
Node sieges.[20]
Legendary world boss spawns.[20]
Monster coin events.[21]
Dungeon opportunities.[21]
This comment was made in relation to events that put your node at risk. It is not appropriate in and of itself to apply it to other events.
The raids we are talking about here are not the encounters that attack nodes - this is a ket thing for you to be aware of.
I don't know if you played Rift, but it is as good of an analogy as any other game. The game had the titular rifts that spawned events that any and all could participate in. These events often cumulated in a boss encounter. The game also had instanced raid zones, which were not free for all to participate in - they were content for guilds.
Ashes is similar (though not exactly the same) as this. There are open world events that are there for all to participate in. These events absolutely will be things that are notified, and that is what Steven was talking about when he mentioned the things listed above. However, there will also be other raid content, content that is designed and intended primarily for guilds - and this is the content I am talking about.
These two types of content should not be confused with each other.
Summon abuse may not be getting much of an advantage at collecting purchases.
The flight paths you are talking about seem to again suggest you have ignored the details.
Flight paths are the first thing here, and there are three distinct reasons why this is not a valid point to use in attempting to say that a summons will not be an effective tool in trade.
The first reason is that flight paths may well be able to take you from one node to another within a region, but that isn't of much value, and again is not what I am talking about. I am talking about taking finished products to a different metropolis, a different region, and these flight paths do not help much with that.
The second is that, even if they did, you still have the time you need to wait while actually travelling, whereas a teleport is instant, and in this particilar exploit, it is all about the time it saves - so even if flight paths took you directly from metropolis to metropolis, you still need to spend the time.
The third thing is that these need to be built by players. They are not a guaranteed feature.
Then you have teleportation between scientific metropolis and it's vassals. This is similar to the flight paths above, and has two of the same drawbacks, plus one if it's own. This system still needs to be build, and still only teleports you within the one region - and the other drawback is that it only applies to scientific metropolis nodes.
Then you have the airship between scientific metropolis nodes, which again needs to be built. It requires two scientific nodes at metropolis stage (which the bulk of servers will not have at any given time), and also still has that travel time aspect to it. It does, however, take you to a different region.
These things will not prevent the usefulness of a family summons system to a player that trades in finished goods.
Even if they did, these things are all temporary. Ifa metropolis is successfully sieged, that means all of that transport is gone. If that is what all other merchants were relying on to get their products to other metropolis nodes, I know I'm going to have a month or so of great sales as while they are waiting for the new metropolis to be leveled up so that flgiht paths can be bought back online, all I need to do is move one character to what ever node has taken over as the market hub and I'm good to go again.
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FuryBladeborneMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Obviously on a developed server there will be multiple major bosses and dungeons available within a given 24 hour period.
Steven has said he expects each server to have a total of 12 - 15 such spawns at any given point. If they spawn roughly weekly (which is reasonable, and on par with every other game), then that means 2 per day, as a general, rough average.
We do not know the spawn schedule in Ashes. If spawns are on a set timer at a known location, teleportation is not necessary to compete for them. If they are randomized, then teleportation is probably a game breaking advantage in this area.
There will be global (server-wide) announcements/notifications of important events.[20] Legendary world boss spawns.[20]
Dungeon opportunities.[21]
This comment was made in relation to events that put your node at risk. It is not appropriate in and of itself to apply it to other events.
The raids we are talking about here are not the encounters that attack nodes - this is a ket thing for you to be aware of.
I went ahead and listened to the clip. In spite of dungeons and legendary bosses being listed I will just agree that we do not know how we will find out about such events; and, that teleporting to them may be a game breaking advantage in relation to such spawns.
In relation to faster travel and caravans, my point was that there are already at least several systems intended for the game that remove or greatly reduce risk and time required for transporting goods. The availability of such systems will depend on world development and exactly where you need things to go.
A player that chooses to may be able to organize a personal pathing for buying / selling based around preferred hunting or grinding areas so that goods can be moved through a combination of faster travel and / or alts with little effort or risk. Riding on a flight path does not require being at the keyboard and may be safe. Even if flying travel can be raided, there's are not many flying mounts.
All I am trying to say is that there are systems in the game which accomplish much of the benefit of family summons over walking (in terms of reduced travel time and reduced risk) even if those systems are not as good as an instant teleport. In fact, using such systems could even allow a player to easily play with friends or quickly meet up for a dungeon run. You know, the things they would be giving up in favor of exploiting at every possible moment.
In regards to teleporting materials between regions using the summon, you won't be. Finished goods could be as that could be equipped gear and currently is not blocked even if the gear is in your inventory. However, crafting materials, processed goods, and certificates will have to be dropped before a summon can be used.
From what I understand, Steven's intent is to test family summoning in Alpha 2 under the current system of a 30 minute cooldown and the other restrictions that IS has presented. After that, adjustments or removal will be made. These threads are important so that IS can have a list of problems and potential solutions ready to go for testing.
It has been interesting but I think that I am done as I have contributed all that I think I wish to.
We do not know the spawn schedule in Ashes. If spawns are on a set timer at a known location, teleportation is not necessary to compete for them. If they are randomized, then teleportation is probably a game breaking advantage in this area.
I should have said that is on par with every other game with similar content.
GW2 content is not similar in any way to this type of content in Ashes - or at least not similar to what we know of it.
In spite of dungeons and legendary bosses being listed
The bosses listed weremonster coin event bosses, and things of that nature. Again, things that will put your node at risk.
In terms of dungeons, there was a comment a long time ago about there being a notification when a new dungeon opens up - not specifically when an individual boss within that dungeon spawns.
While I agree I am making some assumptions on the type of content in Ashes, they are assumptions based on many years of listening to comments in order to understand the type of content Steven wants in the game - rather than just saying "well, it could be like that game over there" when that game over there suits the particular discussion.
Basically, rather than being assumptions based on nothing, the assumptions I am making (while still assumptions) are based on a foundation of understanding of the game.
In regards to teleporting materials between regions using the summon, you won't be.
This statement makes me think you have no idea what we are discussing.
I didn't say raw materials can be transported between metropolis nodes with the summons system. Actually, if you go back through these many threads on this topic, I was among the first that pointed out that the family summons system would ruin the need for caravans - which was said before they added in the cavet that you couldn't use the summons if you had raw materials in your inventory. This restriction was added to the summons (or at least, was first mentioned) a few days later.
This is why I have been saying all this time that it is finished products that are the real issue here - and there is absolutely no way Intrepid can prevent the passage of finished products via this summons.
I am also not sure you understand my issue with the summons in regards to caravans. The issue isn't about getting materials around the world faster (I don't think this would happen, as caravans hold 100 times what a players inventory holds). My issue there is that the caravan system is designed around the notion that players can't spot a caravan moving, form a group up and then attack it. They need to either be out hunting them (or ambushing them), need to luck on to one while out travelling with friends, or need to attempt to gather players in the general area to assist in taking on the caravan. As soon as the game makes it possibel for players to form up their friends from various locations, gather together and then take on the caravan, the entire system starts breaking down.
exploiting
We are not discussing an exploit here.
To be very clear, an exploit in computer terms is "an action that takes advantage of a bug or vulnerability to cause unintended or unanticipated behavior to occur on computer software". Nothing at all that I have suggested is an exploit. There is no bug or vulnerability in the software, and the results are 100% anticipated - even if not intended.
This may well be an abuse of a system, but what I am talking about is using the system as designed, for the exact purpose it was designed for, just with an intention that was not the design. Straight up not an exploit.
Fact is, with these discussions, if any of this is possible by the time the game launched, it is 100% on Intrepid if the summons is misused.
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FuryBladeborneMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
We do not kno[quote="Noaani;c-259483"w the spawn schedule in Ashes. If spawns are on a set timer at a known location, teleportation is not necessary to compete for them. If they are randomized, then teleportation is probably a game breaking advantage in this area.
I should have said that is on par with every other game with similar content.
GW2 content is not similar in any way to this type of content in Ashes - or at least not similar to what we know of it.
GW2 is an MMORPG, we were talking about legendary bosses, it seems to be similar content. However, that didn't matter. The point was simply that such bosses can be on a schedule for a specific location; and, if that happens then guilds will not have an advantage to getting that boss due to family summoning.
...they are assumptions based on many years of listening to comments in order to understand the type of content Steven wants in the game - rather than just saying "well, it could be like that game over there" when that game over there suits the particular discussion.
First, you are comparing Ashes to other games as in this very post you said, "I should have said that is on par with every other game with similar content"; and earlier in this thread, "If they spawn roughly weekly (which is reasonable, and on par with every other game)". Second, I have a kickstarter tag, it means that I have been here since 2017. Saying that your an expert is an attempt to create support for your argument with no evidence. Simply give reasoned arguments or cite what your stating and you won't need to rely on claiming to be an expert.
I didn't say raw materials can be transported between metropolis nodes with the summons system.
Ok. Sometimes I do read the entire massive threads that are generated in the forums, but I am not doing it here. I already attempted to quit with this thread. You stated material, so I went with it. I now understand that you know better.
To be very clear, an exploit in computer terms is "an action that takes advantage of a bug or vulnerability to cause unintended or unanticipated behavior to occur on computer software". Nothing at all that I have suggested is an exploit. There is no bug or vulnerability in the software, and the results are 100% anticipated - even if not intended.
Not intended = unintended. So, it meets the definition of exploit that you provided.
So, I am definitely done. I just wrote all of these responses and almost none of had anything to do with the thread topic of whether family summoning should be in the game or how fix any related problems. In my view, this conversation is no longer productive.
We do not kno[quote="Noaani;c-259483"w the spawn schedule in Ashes. If spawns are on a set timer at a known location, teleportation is not necessary to compete for them. If they are randomized, then teleportation is probably a game breaking advantage in this area.
I should have said that is on par with every other game with similar content.
GW2 content is not similar in any way to this type of content in Ashes - or at least not similar to what we know of it.
GW2 is an MMORPG, we were talking about legendary bosses, it seems to be similar content. However, that didn't matter. The point was simply that such bosses can be on a schedule for a specific location; and, if that happens then guilds will not have an advantage to getting that boss due to family summoning.
This is like saying all crafting in MMO's is the same - which is not at all true.
The premise of Ashes and GW2 are vastly different.
First, you are comparing it to other games to provide examples or support for what can be. "and on par with every other game"; and, "every other game with similar content". Second, I have a kickstarter tag, it means that I have been here since 2017. Saying that your an expert is an attempt to create support for your argument with no evidence. Simply give reasoned arguments or cite what your stating and you won't need to rely on such weak efforts.
I don't talk about what can be - as that includes everything from WoW to Crowfall.
I am talking about what we know of what Steven wants Ashes to be, and he has talked about different types of raids. He has talked about how there will be encounters that spawn and attack nodes, and that everyone is able to participate in this. This type of content is not totally dissimilar to the boss spawns in GW2 - where essentially everyone present can take part, and everyone present gets rewards (this is how it was when I last played GW2, at least).
While I don't expect it to be the case, this type of content could have a daily spawn schedule.
However, it is not the type of content I am talking about.
Rather that content where people work together and all get rewards (which are the encounters Steven was talking about in regards to notifications), I am talking about encounters that are geared towards individual guilds, where only one raid gets the reward. SInce this is different content with different goals to anything in GW2, what happens in that game with their content is not transferrable to this type of content in any other game.
Since the idea is for guilds to fight over it, it simply can not be something that spawns daily. If it spawns daily, then it will be far too common for guilds to care about fighting over. So, this daily spawn timer that you are talking about here straight up DOES NOT WORK for the type of content we are talking about - as I said about 4 posts ago, and you refuse to understand simply because a game has daily spawns with a totally different content type that happens to have a similar name.
Again, a daily spawn simply can not work for a type of content that guilds are supposed to fight over, and that is exactly the type of content that I am talking about. Sure, they could develop it, there is nothing technical to stop them from doing that. The thing is, if they do that, the encounters will be so common that players won't see the need to fight over them, and so won't.
Now, if you want to go on about how a 24 hour spawn timer works for a different type of content with a different goal in mind that is in a different game, then go for it - I am not sure why you would want to talk about that though.
Isn't not intended equal to unintended?
Yes it is.
The outcome here absolutely is unintended by Intrepid - but as I said, that doesn't make it an exploit. In order to be an exploit, the user needs to take advantage of a bug or vulnerability in order to cause unintended or unanticipated behavior.
You seem to have latched on to the last part of that - the need for there to be unintended or unanticipated bahavior. This is something I am not disputing - and this wouldn't even be an abuse of a system if the results were intended and anticipated.
What you seem to have missed though, is the first part that is needed for something to be an exploit - the need for it to be a bug or vulnerability that people are taking advantage of. This is very clearly not the case here, we will be putting a system to use as it is designed to be used, with the exact outcome that the system should have. No bug, no vulnerability, no exploit.
Comments
Yeah, I gathered that it was a joke.
Since some people will take it seriously though, my main objection to a suggestion like that is that it is poor development to have a game where players can do a thing, know before release that the thing is possible, but simply tell players they can't do the thing.
If you don't want players doing a thing, as soon as you realize that players could do it, you need to make it so they can't.
The only exception to this in any game that I have seen is when Trion said blocking other characters was not allowed - and they only did this because they have literally zero control over the actual development of the game, and so enforcing it as a rule was the only path available to them.
I would expect better of a company that is developing their own game.
I'm curious how you already know Ashes doesn't need a feature like this? As far as I know it hasn't even made it into the game build(s) to be tested, the game is a far way from launch I think your own prediction put that in 2023 or 24? lol
I'll ask you again can you not wait to see how it works before explaining to the rest of us why it's not needed?
Master Assassin
(Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
Book suggestions:
Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
I think you might be trying to say: will not stop 100% of abuse rather than will never be limited.
That was several assumptions on systems. A race is not required to be designed into such fights. For example, in Guild Wars 2, world bosses spawned on a regular timer at specific locations daily. We don't know if that will happen here. What we have been told is,
There will be global (server-wide) announcements/notifications of important events.[20]
- Castle sieges.[20]
- Node sieges.[20]
- Legendary world boss spawns.[20]
- Monster coin events.[21]
- Dungeon opportunities.[21]
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Bosses#Regional_bossesSuch content may be based around a race to the static objective or one that was randomly chosen from a few known locations (either of which would turn family summoning into a ridiculously abused system); or, it may not include a race to the objective at all.
Need for citizenship to sell in a node seems unlikely since we are supposed to trade at long distances to increase the value of goods.
It appears that it will be possible to pickup purchased goods with an alt in a distant market and transport those goods via caravan once a server has become developed. Or, dependent upon server development and exactly where you need to travel, travel carrying goods may be accomplished on even a low level character using the other means of faster travel.
Faster travel in Ashes of Creation refers to.[4]
Summon abuse may not be getting much of an advantage at collecting purchases.
As you pointed out, selling items (finished goods only) looks abusable. This is a tough problem since players should be able to teleport with gear on.
A solution could be, summoning a character causes all equipped and carried gear to become temporarily bound for a period long enough to discourage such abuse with all but the most valuable items. Say, a temporary binding of 15-30 days during which the items could only be gotten rid of by selling as vendor trash to NPCs or destroyed.
And he has already brought up the obvious reason this is not one of the things that will be readily visible in testing environments. Groups do not act the same in testing environments as they do when the gates open launch day. My goals in testing is to get a balanced game. My goal day one is to WIN. And any group that is intending on making a mark in their server will use whatever advantage possibly offered to make their goals happen.
By the time people think oh this shouldn't have been in the release, the damage is already done, and can't be undone without severely harming the game. It is well within reason to think the stated benefits do not outweigh the concerns, and thus should not be implemented.
Can you show me the "Pillar of the game" that states "Size is important"? You're both simply projecting your own dislike(s) on others and trying to mask it as "that's not the design" when in fact it is considering the developers are actively trying to design it as such.
Master Assassin
(Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
Book suggestions:
Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
I'm a lot newer here than you are, and even I've heard them say this a number of times.
Both are things the developers want to do. The family summons design is to allow players to reconnect with each other quickly that would otherwise have to spend a large amount of time to catch up to friends that went on playing without them. This is a design choice due to the pillar of the game you guys are referring to. They want the world to feel massive and travel to be meaningful.
These two ideas clash currently, now if they can come up with a better system that reduces or gets rid of this clash then I am all ears. The best thing I can come up with is a once a day limit.
It is easier to add in a QoL feature to an existing game that proves to need it than it is to remove a QoL feature from a game that proves to be a negative.
Once in the live game, it will not be taken out. Therefore, if a wait and see approach is to be taken, that approach should be from the perspective of "wait and see if it is needed, as then we could add it" rather than "add it anyway, and if it is a negative we are all screwed".
So sure, I totally agree with the premise of your statement that we should want to see if the game needs it - you are just coming at that from the wrong direction.
I am not against the idea of people being able to play together that want to, I am against the introduction of a system that will be abused in as many ways as a summons will.
If they can develop a system that won't be abused in such an easy and obvious manner - and is not restricted by cheesy, artificial and arbitrary mechanics - then I'm all for it.
Thing is, as I have said, the idea of the system is to get players to content faster, and the way it will be abused is by getting players to content faster. There is no real way to have the system usable without it being abused.
The wiki doesn't contain informaiton on what Intrepid intend for a specific system, it only contains information on how the system is expected to work.
Steven has said many, many times that they want travel and distance in Ashes to be meaningful. He has said that one of the aspects of caravans that is important to the game is the notion that players can't spot one on the move, and then gather players together to attack it. He has said that the lack of fast travel in Ashes is the biggest single deterrent they have designed to prevent zergs ruining the game.
These things are all incompatible with a family summons. They are not things that are listed in the wiki, because they do not detail how the system is planned to work. However, they are detailing what they want to get out of the systems - which is even more important for us players to know, because they can always change the way the system works in order for it to achieve the goal of said system.
I don't for a second believe you have spent any time listening to interviews or livestreams if you are not fully aware that the intention of the game is for distance to mean something.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here. The inconvenience it would cause for casual players by causing massive travel/down time to group with their friends would absolutely ruin the game. Think about the day in age we live in - everything in your life is almost instantaneously available to you. The concept of "run 30+ minutes to play with your friends because" isn't something that peoples pre-programmed brains of the 2020's and beyond are going to be able to process.
Master Assassin
(Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
Book suggestions:
Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
Other than forced spawning, encounters can either be spawned at a specific time, or they can spawn in a specific window of time. The only variation to this is that both of these can be either based on set clocks, or based on the last time the encounter was killed.
I wasn't making assumptions as to what the game would do, I was pointing out the possible mechanics they could use to spawn encounters, and stating what top end guilds would do for each spawn type (as in, what I have done in past games when each spawn type is used).
If the spawn timer is a set time, we will simply port in 2 or 3 minutes before it is due to spawn. Other guilds may take the time to run there, and good for them - they are wasting a lot of time that we are not though, and will soon see the value in porting in.
If the spawn is within a window of time, we will have a spotter of some sort to tell when the encounter spawns. Since windows like this are usually open for several days, it isn't really concievable that a guild will wait at the spawn location for that period of time, thus the first guild to realise the encounter is up, get to it and get the kill is obviously going to be the one that gets the rewards. It should be obvious that the guild with the porting network will always get this over the guild without it.
This comment was made in relation to events that put your node at risk. It is not appropriate in and of itself to apply it to other events.
The raids we are talking about here are not the encounters that attack nodes - this is a ket thing for you to be aware of.
I don't know if you played Rift, but it is as good of an analogy as any other game. The game had the titular rifts that spawned events that any and all could participate in. These events often cumulated in a boss encounter. The game also had instanced raid zones, which were not free for all to participate in - they were content for guilds.
Ashes is similar (though not exactly the same) as this. There are open world events that are there for all to participate in. These events absolutely will be things that are notified, and that is what Steven was talking about when he mentioned the things listed above. However, there will also be other raid content, content that is designed and intended primarily for guilds - and this is the content I am talking about.
These two types of content should not be confused with each other. The flight paths you are talking about seem to again suggest you have ignored the details.
Flight paths are the first thing here, and there are three distinct reasons why this is not a valid point to use in attempting to say that a summons will not be an effective tool in trade.
The first reason is that flight paths may well be able to take you from one node to another within a region, but that isn't of much value, and again is not what I am talking about. I am talking about taking finished products to a different metropolis, a different region, and these flight paths do not help much with that.
The second is that, even if they did, you still have the time you need to wait while actually travelling, whereas a teleport is instant, and in this particilar exploit, it is all about the time it saves - so even if flight paths took you directly from metropolis to metropolis, you still need to spend the time.
The third thing is that these need to be built by players. They are not a guaranteed feature.
Then you have teleportation between scientific metropolis and it's vassals. This is similar to the flight paths above, and has two of the same drawbacks, plus one if it's own. This system still needs to be build, and still only teleports you within the one region - and the other drawback is that it only applies to scientific metropolis nodes.
Then you have the airship between scientific metropolis nodes, which again needs to be built. It requires two scientific nodes at metropolis stage (which the bulk of servers will not have at any given time), and also still has that travel time aspect to it. It does, however, take you to a different region.
These things will not prevent the usefulness of a family summons system to a player that trades in finished goods.
Even if they did, these things are all temporary. Ifa metropolis is successfully sieged, that means all of that transport is gone. If that is what all other merchants were relying on to get their products to other metropolis nodes, I know I'm going to have a month or so of great sales as while they are waiting for the new metropolis to be leveled up so that flgiht paths can be bought back online, all I need to do is move one character to what ever node has taken over as the market hub and I'm good to go again.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_boss
We do not know the spawn schedule in Ashes. If spawns are on a set timer at a known location, teleportation is not necessary to compete for them. If they are randomized, then teleportation is probably a game breaking advantage in this area. I went ahead and listened to the clip. In spite of dungeons and legendary bosses being listed I will just agree that we do not know how we will find out about such events; and, that teleporting to them may be a game breaking advantage in relation to such spawns.
In relation to faster travel and caravans, my point was that there are already at least several systems intended for the game that remove or greatly reduce risk and time required for transporting goods. The availability of such systems will depend on world development and exactly where you need things to go.
A player that chooses to may be able to organize a personal pathing for buying / selling based around preferred hunting or grinding areas so that goods can be moved through a combination of faster travel and / or alts with little effort or risk. Riding on a flight path does not require being at the keyboard and may be safe. Even if flying travel can be raided, there's are not many flying mounts.
All I am trying to say is that there are systems in the game which accomplish much of the benefit of family summons over walking (in terms of reduced travel time and reduced risk) even if those systems are not as good as an instant teleport. In fact, using such systems could even allow a player to easily play with friends or quickly meet up for a dungeon run. You know, the things they would be giving up in favor of exploiting at every possible moment.
In regards to teleporting materials between regions using the summon, you won't be. Finished goods could be as that could be equipped gear and currently is not blocked even if the gear is in your inventory. However, crafting materials, processed goods, and certificates will have to be dropped before a summon can be used.
(Restrictions explained at 7 minutes)
From what I understand, Steven's intent is to test family summoning in Alpha 2 under the current system of a 30 minute cooldown and the other restrictions that IS has presented. After that, adjustments or removal will be made. These threads are important so that IS can have a list of problems and potential solutions ready to go for testing.
It has been interesting but I think that I am done as I have contributed all that I think I wish to.
GW2 content is not similar in any way to this type of content in Ashes - or at least not similar to what we know of it. The bosses listed weremonster coin event bosses, and things of that nature. Again, things that will put your node at risk.
In terms of dungeons, there was a comment a long time ago about there being a notification when a new dungeon opens up - not specifically when an individual boss within that dungeon spawns.
While I agree I am making some assumptions on the type of content in Ashes, they are assumptions based on many years of listening to comments in order to understand the type of content Steven wants in the game - rather than just saying "well, it could be like that game over there" when that game over there suits the particular discussion.
Basically, rather than being assumptions based on nothing, the assumptions I am making (while still assumptions) are based on a foundation of understanding of the game.
This statement makes me think you have no idea what we are discussing.
I didn't say raw materials can be transported between metropolis nodes with the summons system. Actually, if you go back through these many threads on this topic, I was among the first that pointed out that the family summons system would ruin the need for caravans - which was said before they added in the cavet that you couldn't use the summons if you had raw materials in your inventory. This restriction was added to the summons (or at least, was first mentioned) a few days later.
This is why I have been saying all this time that it is finished products that are the real issue here - and there is absolutely no way Intrepid can prevent the passage of finished products via this summons.
I am also not sure you understand my issue with the summons in regards to caravans. The issue isn't about getting materials around the world faster (I don't think this would happen, as caravans hold 100 times what a players inventory holds). My issue there is that the caravan system is designed around the notion that players can't spot a caravan moving, form a group up and then attack it. They need to either be out hunting them (or ambushing them), need to luck on to one while out travelling with friends, or need to attempt to gather players in the general area to assist in taking on the caravan. As soon as the game makes it possibel for players to form up their friends from various locations, gather together and then take on the caravan, the entire system starts breaking down.
We are not discussing an exploit here.
To be very clear, an exploit in computer terms is "an action that takes advantage of a bug or vulnerability to cause unintended or unanticipated behavior to occur on computer software". Nothing at all that I have suggested is an exploit. There is no bug or vulnerability in the software, and the results are 100% anticipated - even if not intended.
This may well be an abuse of a system, but what I am talking about is using the system as designed, for the exact purpose it was designed for, just with an intention that was not the design. Straight up not an exploit.
Fact is, with these discussions, if any of this is possible by the time the game launched, it is 100% on Intrepid if the summons is misused.
So, I am definitely done. I just wrote all of these responses and almost none of had anything to do with the thread topic of whether family summoning should be in the game or how fix any related problems. In my view, this conversation is no longer productive.
Have a good one
The premise of Ashes and GW2 are vastly different.
I don't talk about what can be - as that includes everything from WoW to Crowfall.
I am talking about what we know of what Steven wants Ashes to be, and he has talked about different types of raids. He has talked about how there will be encounters that spawn and attack nodes, and that everyone is able to participate in this. This type of content is not totally dissimilar to the boss spawns in GW2 - where essentially everyone present can take part, and everyone present gets rewards (this is how it was when I last played GW2, at least).
While I don't expect it to be the case, this type of content could have a daily spawn schedule.
However, it is not the type of content I am talking about.
Rather that content where people work together and all get rewards (which are the encounters Steven was talking about in regards to notifications), I am talking about encounters that are geared towards individual guilds, where only one raid gets the reward. SInce this is different content with different goals to anything in GW2, what happens in that game with their content is not transferrable to this type of content in any other game.
Since the idea is for guilds to fight over it, it simply can not be something that spawns daily. If it spawns daily, then it will be far too common for guilds to care about fighting over. So, this daily spawn timer that you are talking about here straight up DOES NOT WORK for the type of content we are talking about - as I said about 4 posts ago, and you refuse to understand simply because a game has daily spawns with a totally different content type that happens to have a similar name.
Again, a daily spawn simply can not work for a type of content that guilds are supposed to fight over, and that is exactly the type of content that I am talking about. Sure, they could develop it, there is nothing technical to stop them from doing that. The thing is, if they do that, the encounters will be so common that players won't see the need to fight over them, and so won't.
Now, if you want to go on about how a 24 hour spawn timer works for a different type of content with a different goal in mind that is in a different game, then go for it - I am not sure why you would want to talk about that though.
Yes it is.
The outcome here absolutely is unintended by Intrepid - but as I said, that doesn't make it an exploit. In order to be an exploit, the user needs to take advantage of a bug or vulnerability in order to cause unintended or unanticipated behavior.
You seem to have latched on to the last part of that - the need for there to be unintended or unanticipated bahavior. This is something I am not disputing - and this wouldn't even be an abuse of a system if the results were intended and anticipated.
What you seem to have missed though, is the first part that is needed for something to be an exploit - the need for it to be a bug or vulnerability that people are taking advantage of. This is very clearly not the case here, we will be putting a system to use as it is designed to be used, with the exact outcome that the system should have. No bug, no vulnerability, no exploit.