Bunny Hopping?

HiddenDaggerInn

I apologize if this has been discussed before, but will bunny hopping while fighting be a thing in AoC. I Know games have very little realism but sure would like to see some penalties for some guy in plate armor bouncing around while hacking on you. Stamina loss, defense penatly something. Maybe it's because I'm a old fart.

How about you guys what do you think, Yes to it penalty free or No keep em on the ground lol.

Atama

Although we have hybrid action combat, it’s not a full blown FPS so I don’t think bunny hopping will be that helpful. I didn’t play in the APOC testing extensively (I don’t hate myself that much) but I don’t remember seeing it there when I played.

HiddenDaggerInn

I never played lineage so I'm not sure, but I know it's big with mages in PvP in Archeage.

Aardvark

Since only like 25 percent is tab target that means bunny hopping should be quite effective. Should be but we will have to see

HiddenDaggerInn

it's really not a huge issue, I think more me it's just more annoying than anything and always wondered why it wasn't penalized.

cyanideinsanity

Aardvark wrote: »

Since only like 25 percent is tab target that means bunny hopping should be quite effective. Should be but we will have to see

Its not 25% tab. Its up to a 75/25 split in either direction based on what you spec into. You can be primarily tab or action based.

HiddenDaggerInn

Thank you for the info guys, it will be interesting to see if they implement any kind of stamina drain from constantly jumping arround. I hope they do, when I see it it gives me the feel of a FPS not a MMO.

DeJoke

Sandman wrote: »

I apologize if this has been discussed before, but will bunny hopping while fighting be a thing in AoC. I Know games have very little realism but sure would like to see some penalties for some guy in plate armor bouncing around while hacking on you. Stamina loss, defense penatly something. Maybe it's because I'm a old fart.

How about you guys what do you think, Yes to it penalty free or No keep em on the ground lol.

I always found this really annoying in WoW until I realized how to utilize it myself and got used to it. I can understand your pain. But with action-based skills, learning to dodge will be part of the game. Will be interesting to see how fast-paced the gameplay will be. Especially for mages, arches, and rogues.

HiddenDaggerInn

That's the thing though, a "Dodge" is purposely put into the game with usually with a short cooldown, this is just spamming the spacebar button by moving erratically and very unrealistically. Again for FPS fine, but for a MMO I hope they have some kind of hinderance for it.

Frostduck

Honestly i hope armor penalties will only apply in combat (if at all) or while flagged or something. yea, realism is nice and all but fuck running slowly and inability to jump, that sucks the joy out of the game so hard. And thats way more important than realism.

Aardvark

Frostduck wrote: »

Honestly i hope armor penalties will only apply in combat (if at all) or while flagged or something. yea, realism is nice and all but fuck running slowly and inability to jump, that sucks the joy out of the game so hard. And thats way more important than realism.

In dnd one time we had a palidan fall down a hole and in order to get him out we had to pull his armor up with a rope and then his pack and then pull him up with the rope cause the mage and bard up top were not strong enough to pull him up with the armor on even with the rope.

HiddenDaggerInn

not really asking for anyone to be slower in armor, just simply while still being able to bunny hop, there be a limit at some point draining a resource they need. So they can still do it if they choose, but not all the damn time. I don't wanna feel like i'm in a FPS

Valento92

I see no problem with that.

Skilledzero

I think people in games bunnyhop to mentally enrage people they are fighting with most of the time. I would say a good compromise is that you can jump as much as you want, or roll dodge every so often with i/frames (meaning while their character is getting up from the roll animation wise they are unable to do anything to you as they recover) however while you're in the air most attacks and instant spell casts are unusable as if you're out of Line of sight. I would also agree with attack canceling like a bluff as well, you start the attack animation and cancel it to dodge away, you don't do the damage intended but you also don't take any damage and perhaps get into a better position than your enemy.

HiddenDaggerInn

ya I mean it's 1 thing to hop all around but to have use of your spells while doing it is kinda silly

Grihm

PeggysuegotParried wrote: »

I apologize if this has been discussed before, but will bunny hopping while fighting be a thing in AoC. I Know games have very little realism but sure would like to see some penalties for some guy in plate armor bouncing around while hacking on you. Stamina loss, defense penatly something. Maybe it's because I'm a old fart.

How about you guys what do you think, Yes to it penalty free or No keep em on the ground lol.

If they wanna jump around, Stamina loss deluxe please.
In my days..we bloody fought standing still!!
Old farts united in this!

Arukoru

I think this gets a bit too ambitious for an MMO.

For whatever you might think of any MMO you've ever loved, the mechanics will always be limited by the fact of the game being an MMO. No MMO will ever have the combat of dark souls, the mount handling of red dead, or the interactability of a Just Cause because it is just too much for the server to process and relay to all the players in the area.

Personally I really loved guild wars 1 combat because tab targeting in a clustercluck still made your guy run to the target you selected and start attacking. It was very limited but very good because of the limits. WoW combat on the other hand I find deeply unsatisfying, everything is very floaty and animations are very poorly matched to the action/damage.

Taleof2Cities

Maybe you put diminishing returns on repeat jumps as the OP suggests ... ?

That keeps the OP happy as well as the enabling the action-based subset to get out of sticky situations.

fabula

The combat system must feel good but I also think that the way is looks is part of what makes it feel good.

One of my concerns when people were complaining about some animations pushing you forward is that we would go back to floaty animations and with floaty animations comes the jumping around type of gameplay that you see in a lot of games and that looks just awful.

Azherae

Can I basically take this thread to be 'a lot of people agreeing that jumping should have a stamina cost'?

Asking for a friend-thread.

Zusa

It would be a good idea for stamina costs

Yuyukoyay

I think it should be a metric you have to build a character around. Since jumping in MMO's often does dodge skills. In WoW it blocks charges and slows that are melee.

If it has the potential to block entire skills or make them miss then they should be tied to a stat like stamina. So that you have to do it strategically and not just constantly jump all of the time. People are not just doing this for no reason and these are often the reason why.

Inixia

I guess I'll be one of the few dissenting voices here but I actually hope they include bunny hopping, its an important tool for ranged classes like mage to be able to kite away and space attackers in pvp.

I'm definitely against artificially suppressing that kind of mobility with stamina drains you have to monitor and such at the very least unless there is a smoother alternative in place than the usual mechanics - having to stop and turn completely around each time you have to cast, super slow backpedals, or switches between being a sitting duck turret and running away without being able to respond (basically an easy pick for rogues). That may look more immersive but its also incredibly clunky and unsatisfying gameplay. So if they are getting rid of that they really need to replace it with other spellcasting designs that account for mobility.

edit: in short I would much rather look a bit odd with gameplay that actually feels good than vice versa. So a tax on stamina on its own is not very satisfying to me.

Muricall

I don't really know how the resources regarding running work so far but jumping could/should be linked to it.

Inixia

Skilledzero wrote: »

I think people in games bunnyhop to mentally enrage people they are fighting with most of the time. I would say a good compromise is that you can jump as much as you want......however while you're in the air most attacks and instant spell casts are unusable as if you're out of Line of sight.

That's not why people bunny hop. And your solution might actually kind of worsen the reason people do it imo.

I see a lot of confusion in this thread why people bunny hop, and the reason really stems from the fact that in mmo's you usually have to squarely face an opponent to get attacks off (within around maybe a fairly narrow 90-180 or so degree cone of sight). This is unlike the real world where you can, you know, look to the side or glance over your shoulder while you walk or run away from something. This creates somewhat clunky gameplay where ranged classes don't have a lot of mobility against stealth and melee attackers and have to constantly switch between movement actions where they can't really act while they try to get away, and actions where they are essentially a turret without any real movement (or with some usually much slower backpedaling that's really just a small nuisance).

Bunny hopping helps to get around that deficiency. You see if you jump at an angle away from an opponent there's time to turn in the air and get a spell/attack off and then turn back so you don't lose any time running away bc your momentum still carries you forward in the air regardless of where you are facing. So its a way of being able to still act while you desperately try to get space rather than having to do the more disadvantaged 'normal' approach where you run in weird waves on the ground away from the attacker and then turning back towards them losing momentum to maybe get a spell off and repeating (which doesn't work for long).

So not being able to use attacks in the air actually kind of negates the solution ranged classes do to get around these awkward balance issues. If they remove that they really need something better to replace it.

Grihm

Inixia wrote: »

I guess I'll be one of the few dissenting voices here but I actually hope they include bunny hopping, its an important tool for ranged classes like mage to be able to kite away and space attackers in pvp.

I'm definitely against artificially suppressing that kind of mobility with stamina drains you have to monitor and such at the very least unless there is a smoother alternative in place than the usual mechanics - having to stop and turn completely around each time you have to cast, super slow backpedals, or switches between being a sitting duck turret and running away without being able to respond (basically an easy pick for rogues). That may look more immersive but its also incredibly clunky and unsatisfying gameplay. So if they are getting rid of that they really need to replace it with other spellcasting designs that account for mobility.

edit: in short I would much rather look a bit odd with gameplay that actually feels good than vice versa. So a tax on stamina on its own is not very satisfying to me.

Hopping around constantly should cost stamina, just as using a spell cost mana or taking a hit drains hp etc etc. Kite away is a poor mechanic, more based on that solo people want to fight others stronger than them, and even out the odds. Instead, a ranged class should have it´s attacks and magic increased in output damage, but a ranged class should be just that...ranged. If you pick on a poorly chosen target, and end up with a tank breathing down your neck, then that should be on you, and not being given yet another " trick " to get away.

Ranged should be powerful enough to do enough damage from afar, but when a close combat player catch you, then the tables have turned. Otherwise a close combat class could just as easy state they all need a Mortal Combat " Get over here " move etc to drag you ranged classes in.

Ranged VS Close Combat is in favor of Ranged, and if Closed Combat moves in, it´s flipped. Why should one side get a bonus trick?

George_Black

In Tera online if you drew your weapons you could not jump.

I think it would be a good idea to implement it, with the addition of a mana costing 10-25s CD jump ability for rogues rangers, bards and maaaybe fighters.
A similar short 'jump- levitation' ability for mages.

Bunny hoping is so ugly, it does not improve your combat performance and it shoud be dealt with.

Azherae

I wouldn't turn off Jumping once weapon was drawn as an overall option since Ashes has both collision and small terrain shifts that let you gain advantage even in the Alpha open world, especially once we get to Castles and within node sieges I expect this to be an issue.

Grihm

I can live with jumping being in the game for sure, but not for free, especially not in combat.
Having it in the game helps when venturing out in the world etc, but it´s basically just a poorly aged remnant of a wow " thing " and people assume it will work the same here.

You jump, stamina decreases. Simple math.

George_Black

Azherae wrote: »

I wouldn't turn off Jumping once weapon was drawn as an overall option since Ashes has both collision and small terrain shifts that let you gain advantage even in the Alpha open world, especially once we get to Castles and within node sieges I expect this to be an issue.

I would.
It would give archetypes some REAL identity defining abilities.
Not to mention tactical options for organized PvP features.

Not everybody has to be good at everything.

Inixia

Grihm wrote: »

Kite away is a poor mechanic, more based on that solo people want to fight others stronger than them, and even out the odds.

kiting/spacing is not poor, its an incredibly critical tool to control the flow of battle, your approach, and to drag enemies into your team's front line when in danger. So no, I'm not talking about 1v1 combat (I'm assuming pvp is not balanced around that) and its not just a last minute getaway but important for setup as well.

Grihm wrote: »

Instead, a ranged class should have it´s attacks and magic increased in output damage, but a ranged class should be just that...ranged.

there are 4-5 dps archetypes in ashes, you can't give one class more output damage as a class feature. It will cause outcry in raids as one class becomes more dependently viable. Trust me I've seen it.
What you can change how much of that damage is front vs back loaded (front being more viable in pvp generally, except against healers). rogues for example are usually front end burst damage, while mages in ashes seem to be damage over time.

Grihm wrote: »

If you pick on a poorly chosen target, and end up with a tank breathing down your neck, then that should be on you, and not being given yet another " trick " to get away.

Why shouldn't mages get any tricks to get away? Tricks are what make combat interesting. And its not like other classes don't.
Tanks have high hp/defenses and can close gaps, rogues have stealth/evasion and burst damage and cc's which are lethal against squishier classes....

Even if I choose the target 'right' I'm still just standing around like a glass turret....
not to mention there are several enemies to track not usually just one.

All I'm asking is that ranged classes have fair options to work around, and mobility is key to being able to control your risk level, and also tbh, ,it just makes pvp funner/more strategic to not have working between damage and spacing so choppy. If a melee class closes gap they should still have an advantage, I don't disagree with that, but it shouldn't be a duck shoot either.