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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Huge Concerns Around the Corruption System and Griefing
Akeena
Member
Greetings Travelers!
I wanted to open up a conversation that may hopefully get addressed when it comes to the anti griefing system in development. In order to have a productive conversation, I will first post my understanding of the corruption system, and then I will highlight my concerns with the system, as well as potential fixes.
TLDR:
The Corruption System
This system was designed as a way to stop players or groups from harassing and griefing other players. By attacking other individuals you mark yourself as a "combatant," allowing you to steal a portion of resources from the target you kill, as well as lose some if you die. I'm not terribly concerned with this mechanic, as risk/reward helps raise the stakes and can make things fun.
If the individual you are fighting attacks back, there is no problem, but if they don't fight back, and they weren't already flagged, your character will gain corruption. You will also gain corruption if you attack someone who is much lower level than you.
Once your character accumulates enough corruption, you will be marked as corrupted, and then run the risk of 4x the standard amount of resource loss, PVP dampening, global position marked on the map, and the chance to drop your equipped items.
To clear off your corruption, you can either die or grind exp in the area.
The Issues
1) The first problem with corruption is PVP dampening.
2)Accumulation of corruption.
3)Corruption Clearing.
4)Non-damage abilities.
I think overall the corruption system is a good idea. I love the idea of "becoming a threat" that the community must deal with. I love the idea of risk vs reward. The idea of dropping more resources and even your items is a great tool to stop players from over griefing. I am very much a lover of PVP, and love games with super high death penalties, but I understand how annoying it can be to be run over by zergs or much higher level players.
If we can figure out more about this system, and find a way to avoid using the corruption system as a way to grief other players, I think it will add a wonderful dynamic to the game.
Thanks for reading, I'd love to hear thoughts and opinions.
I wanted to open up a conversation that may hopefully get addressed when it comes to the anti griefing system in development. In order to have a productive conversation, I will first post my understanding of the corruption system, and then I will highlight my concerns with the system, as well as potential fixes.
TLDR:
PVP Dampening is bad for competition and community
Lvl 1's can block doorways with no solution
Corrupted players can get team-killed to circumvent penalties.
Non-damage abilities could flag or avoid flag
Lvl 1's can block doorways with no solution
Corrupted players can get team-killed to circumvent penalties.
Non-damage abilities could flag or avoid flag
The Corruption System
This system was designed as a way to stop players or groups from harassing and griefing other players. By attacking other individuals you mark yourself as a "combatant," allowing you to steal a portion of resources from the target you kill, as well as lose some if you die. I'm not terribly concerned with this mechanic, as risk/reward helps raise the stakes and can make things fun.
If the individual you are fighting attacks back, there is no problem, but if they don't fight back, and they weren't already flagged, your character will gain corruption. You will also gain corruption if you attack someone who is much lower level than you.
Once your character accumulates enough corruption, you will be marked as corrupted, and then run the risk of 4x the standard amount of resource loss, PVP dampening, global position marked on the map, and the chance to drop your equipped items.
To clear off your corruption, you can either die or grind exp in the area.
The Issues
1) The first problem with corruption is PVP dampening.
While there should be a harsh penalty for players looking to kill innocents, dampening should not be part of the equation. Hunting down corrupted players should be a challenge since the reward will be much higher for killing them. If players take the risk of going corrupted, they should at least be given a fair chance to fight off their opponents when they come. Please remember, that this is an RPG style of game, and some people enjoy playing that chaotic evil character. The super high risk and infamy that comes from having your name as a target on the map is an exciting opportunity to create conflict in the world, one that is player-driven, and should be player solved. By dampening an individual who has become corrupted, you are cutting away at the possibility of this system. Aion did this well in it's early stages. Ganking and killing members of the other faction would eventually mark you as a skull on the map, and you would be hunted down. This was fun for players on both sides.
2)Accumulation of corruption.
This has yet to be flushed out, but what we know is you gain corruption if you kill a player that doesn't fight back, and if they are lower level than you. Keeping in mind that this game has unit collision, this raises a huge issue with how does a player deal with an individual who parks a level 1 character in the doorway to a popular building or crafting location? If you are a high level, attacking a lvl1 would most likely kill them(assuming you would need to use an ability that "moves" them). This could result in your character gaining massive amounts of corruption, and then other players partied with the "body blocking level 1" could simply kill you for 4x your normal drops, and also not receive any penalty for attacking you since you are corrupted. This could be extrapolated to a group of 6, 2 people on level 1 characters who are non-combatants, and 4 players who are waiting nearby to kill anyone who gets frustrated with this trap.
3)Corruption Clearing.
If a good way to clear corruption is death, then could two players simply go around killing players, stacking corruption right before they reach the threshold they become marked on a map or drop items, and they simply kill one another, looting each other until corruption is cleared and then continue with basically no penalty? If killing a corrupted player as a corrupted player doesn't help clear, could you not involve a 3rd member (with no corruption) every so often who comes into the mix and is in charge of killing the two corrupted players and then looting & trading valuables.
4)Non-damage abilities.
The last issue could come in the interaction between players and support classes. Since there is no information about this yet, I'll leave it open, but there could be an issue with crowd control griefing (mind-control forcing players to jump to death, stun/pull without damage holding someone from playing, etc...). We will also need to know more about how healing/buffing players will have an effect on players gaining corruption. Could a player kill low levels while getting healed, would both individuals share corruption gain, and if you heal/buff a corrupted player, would you become corrupted? If you are invited to a party with a corrupted player, would you gain corruption, would you share corruption gain while in the party even if you don't participate in the kill?
I think overall the corruption system is a good idea. I love the idea of "becoming a threat" that the community must deal with. I love the idea of risk vs reward. The idea of dropping more resources and even your items is a great tool to stop players from over griefing. I am very much a lover of PVP, and love games with super high death penalties, but I understand how annoying it can be to be run over by zergs or much higher level players.
If we can figure out more about this system, and find a way to avoid using the corruption system as a way to grief other players, I think it will add a wonderful dynamic to the game.
Thanks for reading, I'd love to hear thoughts and opinions.
2
Comments
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/44797/preventing-players-from-gaming-the-corruption-system
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/230269
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/225011
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/44758/corruption-system
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/220504
maybe you'll find discussion points in these.
For 1: Corruption is a punishment, it's not necessarily a pvp-system. Through testing and feedback things could obviously change, but based on how the system's been mentioned it's less pvp-dampening and more pvp-punishment. If a player chooses to become corrupted knowing the downsides then that's a risk they have to take for the potential rewards they'll gain.
For 2: Collision might be on, but I think there are ways to get around people one way or another, and based off of feedback I can see them implementing a system to prevent door blocking (as they did it in one of the live streams as a joke but people still managed to get in around them)
For 3: As fast travel isn't a thing you run the risk of running into other players every time you respawn. I don't know how much control there is to determine where you respawn, but you'll at least have to have the second or third player constantly running back and forth leaving them at risk to strangers regardless.
As for 4: Jahlon did an interview with steven and at 1:05:30 (
2 ) You bring up a good point. They will definitely address this at some point but it is way to early. So I don't think body blocking to close off areas will be an issue.
3) A simple fix would to not allow to trade or drop items upon corruption. If they did just loot each other I'd think that would be exploiting the system and a punishable offence. I also think upon death and if you do drop a piece of gear it will be damaged. So you will have to go through the hassle of repair the gear. This will be advantageous if you are playing honestly and get the kill. But if you "kill yourself" and get the loot you'll be in the red.
4) This is the best thing you have brought up. I have wondered about non-combat skills being used. Time will tell. But imo if you are healing a corrupt player, you should be flagged as corrupt. Eve online screwed that one up.
For all the talk about competitiveness they sure dropped the ball in this aspect. The bounty system is plenty as a counter-measure to this. Rather, it's fun! It will create so much content with probably guilds dedicated to bounty-hunting. But if you're constantly dampened as punishment, the playstyle will die off. The bounty system will become meaningless.
There is no competition ganking low levels and non-pvpers
Then I remembered you can easily go corrupt as a party. If there are not enough people online or in the area to bounty hunt your party or keep you in check then you could just continuously gank and cause havoc unchecked for longer than the devs would like. This is the kind of behavior that would make people not want to play.
I think people are still not understanding that corruption is not a pvp system for players to actively use for profit. Corruption is a pvp consequence to players attacking the defenseless for their own desires.
Which is why I confused ....that is what open world pvp is...do they want open world pvp or not as this middle ground will likely be too strong for some and too weak for some at the same time. Not sure the middle ground will make either group happy.
thank you for bringing up your concerns. In my answer I will focus on point one of your list: pvp-dampening.
My central argument against your concern is, that I think your understandig of the aim of the corruption system is not the standpoint of the developers.
On the roleplay server I played for a long time in WoW, there was one stealthy character who ruined several roleplay events. As there was no corruption system and no harsh punishment for dying, we had no chance to prevent this from happening over and over again. He himself was a good geared player with PVP-skills, but no interest in roleplay and got his fun obviously by ruining the fun for many others.
I think PVP-dampening is a good way, as those players choose weaker players to harass way too often. As AoC is a game in which distance matters, you also cannot relie on other strong players to hunt a corrupted player down as he*she can simply log out. If he just wants to ruin other players experience, this is what I experienced with the player above. For him it was enough to interrupt the event every 15 Minutes.
The actions, that stack up your corruption, are not the ingame motivation of a chaotic evil character. They are aiming at the player behind the character. This is clearly a non-rpg motivation. If you want to play a chaotic evil character INGAME there are plenty of options to do so: destroying villages just because you like to plunder and destroy the homes of people; raiding caravans or even ruin sieges by betraying the faction you have signed up for.
The corruption-system is build to prevent those kinds of behaviour, that destroy the fun for other players and does not reflect the base idea of the game "risk something for reward". The most effective way to do this, is to take away what is of value for this players inch by inch, with several ways to get back into the game by playing the game.
One keystone of many players game experience is the relative strength of their character. The corruption system is not build to attract players and offer a kind of playing the game, so I am fine with reducing their strength bit by bit.
Last argument: As I understand it, your character will not be completely weak the second you get corrupted. In my understanding it adds up. So if you really, really want this experience you can life your life at the edge of being corrupted and balance the questing to reduce it and stacking corruption.
For me the bounty hunter-system is one way to transform dysfunctional behaviour of some players into a game feature for others. It is by far no solution against griefing, excessive ganking of low level players etc.
Have a good night,
Haraxa
Nobody is talking about ganking low levels. But non-pvpers, and players at your own level, or a level below you. Why should you be penalized in stats for attacking a same level player?
They could use EVE system. Set yourself up as RED, to be able to attack others and be attacked by other RED's without being penalized.
Open World PvP means you can engage in PvP in the Open World. You only gain corruption if the person doesn't fight back. It isn't pvp if the person isn't fighting back. It's griefing.
Twitter.
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This could work. For example, based on proximity to starting area nodes. The further you venture, the less punishment.
Sure only if those areas have no benefits to somebody that wouldn't want to gain corruption.
I've stated it before in this thread but corruption is a punishment, killing people that don't want to fight back is what gets you corruption. If they fight back you don't get corruption.
Anyone arguing for positive corruption mechanics is arguing for the freedom to kill players that refuse to fight back, because again, that is the only way someone can gain corruption.
I think at its core, people are misunderstanding corruption.
Everywhere is open to PvP, if they fight back you do not become corrupt. They also have to die for you to become corrupt. So you have time to stop attacking as long as you aren't swinging on players that you severely outgear and outlevel.
Risk/Reward also encompasses you getting rekt by other players. "Punishment" there are so many other ways to punish people, even take away gold from them for attacking players that are a lot of levels below them, but to reduce their fighting ability is meh. Big turnaway.
Okay, lets have punishment. Whatever else it is, aside from manipulating players stats.
Without reducing the player effectiveness, that same player could attack and grief the same person for hours that doesn't want to pvp as long as bounty hunters or the like don't have the time to come around and help save the person. The stat lowering only happens at the late stages of corruption.
In what world would a game want to allow for this? Again you don't get corruption for killing anyone willing to fight back. You literally only get it for killing people that don't want to fight you.
I will keep reading these replies, but so far I love the direction fo the conversation
I am assuming that your abilities can not hit a player until you have them selected as a target at least once. If this is the case then keeping a low level player around won't really risk anything. Also, if you just don't want to PvP, that's what corruption is already for anyways. If someone wants to kill you regardless of the corruption, they are gonna kill you.
I mean if you're flagged and throw an aoe you'll hit the low level.
2nd point is also true. If people want you dead, you're dead.
Being flagged for combat does not mean you automatically hit non-combatants. It’s an option you have to enable if you wish to hit greens without direct targeting. There’s no risk of hitting a green on accident if you don’t have the auto Force Attack enabled.
Well it would be great if there were a mechanic where AoEs don't hit a noncombatant unless targeted. Basically any non-target based abilities will avoid NCs if the NC is not a target of the user.
EXCELLENT! Good to hear.
My thought to toe the line with this system would be to create an outlaw toon and a non-combatant toon. I can funnel any ill-gotten goods from outlaw to non-combatant. Once corruption on the outlaw gets too high, I can put their gear in the bank and run around the world naked to either be killed by other players or jumping off buildings, mountains, etc. to die and reduce corruption. Rinse, repeat.
Is that feasible? Any part of the system that would prevent this behavior?
I did a cursory search on this before asking, but didn't strip search the forum - so apologies if this has been brought up already.
Yes this would be feasible as things currently stand. Corruption is character specific. Not account bound.
Input from the Community.
Because not being able to enter main nodes doesn't stop someone from eternally griefing someone else until bounty hunters or friends come around. You can still stand around at the key location someone has for their current progression or quest and continuously stop them from that progression. That is what the depowering is meant to stop.
Steven specifically said he doesn't want to stop players from having the agency to get frustrated with a player and kill them for the fun of it or just for the feeling of revenge. But he also doesn't want griefing or allowing for someone to sit on a spot and just kill people that don't want to PvP.
I never played much of Eve. Can Reds attack non reds as well? AoC wants Pvp to be consent-based.