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Former Lineage 2 PvP'er wanting to discuss PvP loopholes

ShinnanigensShinnanigens Member
in General Discussion
Lineage 2 was one of my favorites and the Karma system in Lineage resembles AoC's so much I wanted to discuss loopholes players used to get out of the karma system Steven and others might have forgotten about over the years or not just thought of. Better safe than sorry

First and foremost members of other guild alliances would just kill you over and over to lose your bad karma and any gear you dropped they picked up and just gave back. Same works with your friends doing it as well. Secondly using a secondary account logging in a very remote area and just killing yourself over and over again. Thirdly they fixed and it was people would just log off that character and it would lose karma over time. I heard people say in AoC it will slowly decay over time I just hope not offline.

Also corpse camping has not to my knowledge been explained fully in how you guys plan on dealing with an entire guild sitting on your body and not letting you recover. Again it's super early alpha and we don't exactly know how respawning after death works just yet.


Comments

  • JubilumJubilum Member, Pioneer, Kickstarter
    If you allow open world/non-consensual pvp you can not prevent or deter what you described, it will happen and most people on these forum are to naive to admit it. I have been raging about it for 3 years but very few will listen. There are groups of gankers/griefers out there drooling for this game to launch and harvest all the tears they live on, this is what they do 24/7 nothing will stop them. They will come in force with the goal of killing everyone until they all rage quit, then they will move to the next server to do the same.
  • BeekeeperBeekeeper Member
    jubilum wrote: »
    They will come in force with the goal of killing everyone until they all rage quit, then they will move to the next server to do the same.

    I'll believe it when I see it.

    Alphas will see systems being tested, no need to get all doomsday about it.
  • KohlKohl Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    jubilum wrote: »
    If you allow open world/non-consensual pvp you can not prevent or deter what you described, it will happen and most people on these forum are to naive to admit it. I have been raging about it for 3 years but very few will listen. There are groups of gankers/griefers out there drooling for this game to launch and harvest all the tears they live on, this is what they do 24/7 nothing will stop them. They will come in force with the goal of killing everyone until they all rage quit, then they will move to the next server to do the same.

    There's so many ways to go about preventing this, but they chose the worst one.
  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Shinnanigens wrote: »

    First and foremost members of other guild alliances would just kill you over and over to lose your bad karma and any gear you dropped they picked up and just gave back. Same works with your friends doing it as well. Secondly using a secondary account logging in a very remote area and just killing yourself over and over again.
    Steven recently responded to this problem saying that the PKer will respawn in a randomized area, so staying on the corpse will not be possible. Combined with the a lack of fast travel, repetivite killing should be difficult to pull off. If you happen to be thinking about family summonings, the will be a cooldown timer on that which is supposed to be significant.
    Shinnanigens wrote: »
    Thirdly they fixed and it was people would just log off that character and it would lose karma over time. I heard people say in AoC it will slowly decay over time I just hope not offline.
    The two ways are dying or grinding experience killing mob. Killing mobs equates to spending time to remove experience but obviously cannot be done while logged off.
    Shinnanigens wrote: »
    Also corpse camping has not to my knowledge been explained fully in how you guys plan on dealing with an entire guild sitting on your body and not letting you recover. Again it's super early alpha and we don't exactly know how respawning after death works just yet.
    I looked at the 90 minute game play video in ashes website at:
    https://ashesofcreation.com/news/2020-05-31-over-90-minutes-of-pre-alpha-gameplay-in-4k

    At 36-37 minutes, Steven dies and is given the option to respawn rather than run to his corpse. When he did, he appeared to respawn at a random point outside of town, supporting the earlier point and showing that the corpse cannot be camped.

    You might find the AoC wiki helpful as the corruption system covered most of what I just wrote.
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_corruption
  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Kohl wrote: »
    jubilum wrote: »
    If you allow open world/non-consensual pvp you can not prevent or deter what you described, it will happen and most people on these forum are to naive to admit it. I have been raging about it for 3 years but very few will listen. There are groups of gankers/griefers out there drooling for this game to launch and harvest all the tears they live on, this is what they do 24/7 nothing will stop them. They will come in force with the goal of killing everyone until they all rage quit, then they will move to the next server to do the same.

    There's so many ways to go about preventing this, but they chose the worst one.

    Out of curiosity, what is the best or one of the best ways. Or, if that is difficult to identify then the top few since there are many?
  • BlackBronyBlackBrony Member, Alpha Two
    You have experience debt each time you die.
  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    BlackBrony wrote: »
    You have experience debt each time you die.

    Excellent point. Replacing experience grinding to remove corruption with experience grinding to remove experience debt is a genius way to cancel out most of the abuse of friends killing the PKer. I wonder what the ratio of corruption experience required to experience debt for deaths will be like.
  • StevenSharifStevenSharif Member, Avatar of the Phoenix, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Another point, experience debt can significantly reduce your drop rate for monsters. The more debt you own the greater the drop in % for loot tables. These modifiers are applied in a divisible manner for parties.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2020
    StevenSharif wrote: »
    Another point, experience debt can significantly reduce your drop rate for monsters. The more debt you own the greater the drop in % for loot tables. These modifiers are applied in a divisible manner for parties.
    I wasn’t aware of that, this is brilliant. :smiley:
     
    Hhak63P.png
  • ShinnanigensShinnanigens Member
    This wasn't meant to be how miserable can we make PvP'ers lives. It was to talk about system abuses. If I need to go red to just really nail a point home to someone about my turf I don't think I should suffer the 9 hells for doing so. "Sometimes you just gotta go red" Shinnanigens 2020
  • IllusionTokomiIllusionTokomi Member
    edited August 2020
    Shinnanigens wrote: »
    This wasn't meant to be how miserable can we make PvP'ers lives. It was to talk about system abuses. If I need to go red to just really nail a point home to someone about my turf I don't think I should suffer the 9 hells for doing so. "Sometimes you just gotta go red" Shinnanigens 2020

    I don't want anyone's life to be miserable. I do want PK-ers' lives to be difficult to achieve their unwelcome goals. I make a very broad distinction between PK and PvP. They are not terms of reciprocity in my vocabulary.
    "Don't be hasty."
  • SepiDNSepiDN Member, Alpha Two
    Shinnanigens wrote: »
    Lineage 2 was one of my favorites and the Karma system in Lineage resembles AoC's so much I wanted to discuss loopholes players used to get out of the karma system Steven and others might have forgotten about over the years or not just thought of. Better safe than sorry

    First and foremost members of other guild alliances would just kill you over and over to lose your bad karma and any gear you dropped they picked up and just gave back.Same works with your friends doing it as well. Secondly using a secondary account logging in a very remote area and just killing yourself over and over again. Thirdly they fixed and it was people would just log off that character and it would lose karma over time. I heard people say in AoC it will slowly decay over time I just hope not offline.

    Also corpse camping has not to my knowledge been explained fully in how you guys plan on dealing with an entire guild sitting on your body and not letting you recover. Again it's super early alpha and we don't exactly know how respawning after death works just yet.


    Maybe if a guildmate kills you, you won't lose corruption? If there's guild leave/join penalties then this would at least make it more rare. Same with people on your friendlist and party of course.

    To the second point since there's no fast travel or scroll of escapes that I'v heard of this might be a tad harder to achieve. Surely can't judge before actually testing it out in game.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited August 2020
    SepiDN wrote: »
    Shinnanigens wrote: »
    Lineage 2 was one of my favorites and the Karma system in Lineage resembles AoC's so much I wanted to discuss loopholes players used to get out of the karma system Steven and others might have forgotten about over the years or not just thought of. Better safe than sorry

    First and foremost members of other guild alliances would just kill you over and over to lose your bad karma and any gear you dropped they picked up and just gave back.Same works with your friends doing it as well. Secondly using a secondary account logging in a very remote area and just killing yourself over and over again. Thirdly they fixed and it was people would just log off that character and it would lose karma over time. I heard people say in AoC it will slowly decay over time I just hope not offline.

    Also corpse camping has not to my knowledge been explained fully in how you guys plan on dealing with an entire guild sitting on your body and not letting you recover. Again it's super early alpha and we don't exactly know how respawning after death works just yet.


    Maybe if a guildmate kills you, you won't lose corruption? If there's guild leave/join penalties then this would at least make it more rare. Same with people on your friendlist and party of course.
    This is already a thing, you can't attack guild members in PvP, nor members of allied guilds.

    That won't stop you keeping a trusted friend that isn't in your guild or an allied one on hand to do this though, and as posted above the method employed to prevent this is to make it so that you spawn in a random spot if you die with corruption. As such, there is no guarantee that your friend will be the next player to find you.

    Even if they do manage to find you first and carry on with this scheme, it isn't dealing to what will fast become obvious is the major component of the death penalty - the experience debt.

    As to your second point, I'm not sure if you mean corpse camping (as in, you revive and then have to go back to where you died in order to recover something of yourself), or respawn camping.

    If the former, there is no indication that this mechanic will even be in the game. If the latter, the corruption system should deal with that.

  • SepiDNSepiDN Member, Alpha Two
    edited August 2020
    noaani wrote: »
    SepiDN wrote: »
    Shinnanigens wrote: »
    Lineage 2 was one of my favorites and the Karma system in Lineage resembles AoC's so much I wanted to discuss loopholes players used to get out of the karma system Steven and others might have forgotten about over the years or not just thought of. Better safe than sorry

    First and foremost members of other guild alliances would just kill you over and over to lose your bad karma and any gear you dropped they picked up and just gave back.Same works with your friends doing it as well. Secondly using a secondary account logging in a very remote area and just killing yourself over and over again. Thirdly they fixed and it was people would just log off that character and it would lose karma over time. I heard people say in AoC it will slowly decay over time I just hope not offline.

    Also corpse camping has not to my knowledge been explained fully in how you guys plan on dealing with an entire guild sitting on your body and not letting you recover. Again it's super early alpha and we don't exactly know how respawning after death works just yet.


    Maybe if a guildmate kills you, you won't lose corruption? If there's guild leave/join penalties then this would at least make it more rare. Same with people on your friendlist and party of course.
    This is already a thing, you can't attack guild members in PvP, nor members of allied guilds.

    That won't stop you keeping a trusted friend that isn't in your guild or an allied one on hand to do this though, and as posted above the method employed to prevent this is to make it so that you spawn in a random spot if you die with corruption. As such, there is no guarantee that your friend will be the next player to find you.

    Even if they do manage to find you first and carry on with this scheme, it isn't dealing to what will fast become obvious is the major component of the death penalty - the experience debt.

    As to your second point, I'm not sure if you mean corpse camping (as in, you revive and then have to go back to where you died in order to recover something of yourself), or respawn camping.

    If the former, there is no indication that this mechanic will even be in the game. If the latter, the corruption system should deal with that.

    But can't you be resurrected by a cleric if you have a corruption? This is what we did in L2. Kill your friend, ress him, kill him again and ress him. Don't care where he would spawn as he never gets to spawn.

    And yea I agree it won't stop you if there's more restrictions who can kill you to clear karma but it will drop out most of the cases. Ally could be part of this restriction as well.
    I'd guess it's pretty rare to have non clan member just hanging around in game where being in clan gives you stat boosts.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Make it so that a corrupted character can’t be resurrected. That gives the penalty more of an impact and seems to fit the lore. Divine powers refuse to give a second chance to an agent of Chaos.
     
    Hhak63P.png
  • Over1anderOver1ander Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    There will most likely be respawn zones with player protection upon death unless revived by guild/party members. Steven's stated he's been a long time player of L2 so he most likely shares your same opinions on these systems.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Atama wrote: »
    Make it so that a corrupted character can’t be resurrected. That gives the penalty more of an impact and seems to fit the lore. Divine powers refuse to give a second chance to an agent of Chaos.

    But that just makes it sound cooler
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • ShinnanigensShinnanigens Member
    @StevenSharif will you discuss this some when you can in a dev chat to put some community worries to rest?
  • tugowartugowar Member, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    @Lex @unknownsystemerror easy to lose these staff responses

    Virtue is the only good.
  • SyltharisSyltharis Member
    So from roleplay perspective let's asume this.

    I play an assassin class. My node is at war with another node. Sieges back and forth. WE ARE AT WAR. So i decide one day to go to that node, spend bunch of time to get there, and i start to disrupt their node/economy/life by killing everyone i can. And at the end of it all, i get corruption and chance to drop some of the gear i painstakingly aquired ?

    No, its not griefing, nor it is out of rage and spite. It's the roleplay i want to do when i play that type of class. So instead of punishing PvPers with stupid system like corruption, why not make characters 5 or more levels, lower than you, be UNATTACKABLE by you ? For example: I am level 50, a player next to me is lvl 45. No matter what i do, i cannot attack him, but the moment he dings lvl46 i can attack him.
  • BlackBronyBlackBrony Member, Alpha Two
    You have experience debt each time you die.
    Syltharis wrote: »
    So from roleplay perspective let's asume this.

    I play an assassin class. My node is at war with another node. Sieges back and forth. WE ARE AT WAR. So i decide one day to go to that node, spend bunch of time to get there, and i start to disrupt their node/economy/life by killing everyone i can. And at the end of it all, i get corruption and chance to drop some of the gear i painstakingly aquired ?

    No, its not griefing, nor it is out of rage and spite. It's the roleplay i want to do when i play that type of class. So instead of punishing PvPers with stupid system like corruption, why not make characters 5 or more levels, lower than you, be UNATTACKABLE by you ? For example: I am level 50, a player next to me is lvl 45. No matter what i do, i cannot attack him, but the moment he dings lvl46 i can attack him.

    You misunderstand. Node wars:
    This mutually flags the citizens of the warring nodes, including their allies, as combatants.

    One thing is attacking citizen of a node which you're at war, another is randomly killing players.

    And for clarity, you only get corrupted if you kill people who don't fight back.
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