[Concern] Potential Flaw in the Corruption System

edited August 1 in General Discussion
Hello! Just wanted to state a concern I have regarding the corruption system.

From what I understand on the corruption system, a player who deliberately kills one or several non-combatant players is flagged as a “combatant” and eventually a “corrupt” player.

However, if a very rare resource were to appear in my node, I wouldn’t want people from competing nodes taking that resource, which could potentially jump start their node into a metropolis. I would want to take this rare resource for my node. If a player from a competing node is traveling through my node and is harvesting/mining, its only natural my guild and I would want to ward the players away for taking resources from my node that benefit their node. If my friend and I were to kill these players from another node who are taking resources from my node, would we be flagged as a combatant and eventually corrupted?

I don’t see a way where I can ward players from stealing our nodes resources from players from competing nodes without getting corrupted.

Just my suggestion but hopefully you have a better solution:

I think players should be flagged as combatants the second they enter a node thats not their own or a node they don’t have a alliance or guild that owns the node they’ve entered. Or additionally attack any players they don’t have an alliance with.

Without a system like this I don’t see how players can ward players from other nodes without getting corrupt.
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Comments

  • BakuBaku Member
    I think players should be flagged as combatants the second they enter a node thats not their own or a node they don’t have a alliance or guild that owns the node they’ve entered.

    Defenitely no. It is an open world MMO where you should travel and discover the world. With this restriction noone would leave their territory anymore.

    And for the ressources case:
    Maybe that's just unlucky. Who sees it first, owns it. Don't know what's the problem about that.
  • edited August 1
    Baku wrote: »

    Defenitely no. It is an open world MMO where you should travel and discover the world. With this restriction noone would leave their territory anymore.

    And for the ressources case:
    Maybe that's just unlucky. Who sees it first, owns it. Don't know what's the problem about that.

    I have a problem because it’s synonymous to letting the Sackville-Baggins family: Otho and wife Lobelia, and their son Lotho to take Bag End, Bilbo’s house without repercussions?

    And players would still would leave their nodes if they required a resources outside their nodes habitat that gave their city/guild an advantage over a rival node. If you’re worried about gankfests...gankfests are already established through caravan ganking which allow players from competing nodes to collect resources and to get to a metropolis faster than your node. Which also makes it a faction based system hence why we get sieges.

  • BakuBaku Member
    Please tell me if I unsderstand you wrong.
    You mean that players are only allowed to leave their node if the node needs ressources you get from that "destination node"? If they enter the node without that need than they are flagged as combatant?

    1st Question: How/when will one player belong to one specific node?

    2nd Question: What happens if I belong to node A but there is a super cool dungeon at node B where I can get stuff i really need. Am I flagged as combatant then?

    3rd Question: What happens if I just want to discover new cities/quests/landscapes or try to find a new guild oder friends and party members. Will I get punished for that and be a combatant?
  • edited August 1
    You mean that players are only allowed to leave their node if the node needs ressources you get from that "destination node"? If they enter the node without that need than they are flagged as combatant?

    You and friends are free to leave your node whenever you want whenever you want, with the risk of encountering players from the node you are visiting who would want to protect their resources in their nodes.

    1st Question: How/when will one player belong to one specific node?


    An example would be, if my friends/guild and I establish a city inside a node, that I would belong to that specific node. Thats where my home is and the city we built together

    2nd Question: What happens if I belong to node A but there is a super cool dungeon at node B where I can get stuff i really need. Am I flagged as combatant then?

    Yes, because that dungeon potentially has resources that Node B needs for their guild/city/players.If you want their resources you can always siege their node or fight them off

    3rd Question: What happens if I just want to discover new cities/quests/landscapes or try to find a new guild oder friends and party members. Will I get punished for that and be a combatant?

    You can always request an alliance and ask for clearance explore the lands. If you node has a resource their node needs it can lead to a trade alliance.


    Just something I need to mention so this doesn’t become a heated discussion. I dont intend to have the solve all answer. I was just addressing a flaw of allowing rival nodes to take resources from your own node without being defenders is ridiculous IMO
  • I have a problem because it’s synonymous to letting the Sackville-Baggins family: Otho and wife Lobelia, and their son Lotho to take Bag End, Bilbo’s house without repercussions?

    But unlike Bag End, that resource isn't your property just because it's in your nodes zone of influence. It's not your house.

    It's more like if a Took from Tookland picked some mushrooms in some area of Buckland.
  • GrimzarGrimzar Member
    You only get corruption if someone doesn't fight back.
    you can just hit him few times and warn him that way :)
    or declare node war/guild war. Then if I am correct players who are citizen of other node (or member of a guild) will be flagged to your node/guild as combatants.
    but if you want to scare away all players who aren't in your guild/alliance then you probably never reach level 5 or 6 node.
  • edited August 1

    But unlike Bag End, that resource isn't your property just because it's in your nodes zone of influence. It's not your house.

    It's more like if a Took from Tookland picked some mushrooms in some area of Buckland.

    True, that resource is not your property even if it lies within your node.
    But if the current corruption system is implemented on the final release of the game, you would in fact watch your rival pick a particular resource thats grown in your node, that would tip the balance of the scales towards your rivals node rather than your node without being able to do a single thing about it
  • vmangmanvmangman Member, Founder
    Hello! Just wanted to state a concern I have regarding the corruption system.

    From what I understand on the corruption system, a player who deliberately kills one or several non-combatant players is flagged as a “combatant” and eventually a “corrupt” player.

    However, if a very rare resource were to appear in my node, I wouldn’t want people from competing nodes taking that resource, which could potentially jump start their node into a metropolis. I would want to take this rare resource for my node. If a player from a competing node is traveling through my node and is harvesting/mining, its only natural my guild and I would want to ward the players away for taking resources from my node that benefit their node. If my friend and I were to kill these players from another node who are taking resources from my node, would we be flagged as a combatant and eventually corrupted?

    I don’t see a way where I can ward players from stealing our nodes resources from players from competing nodes without getting corrupted.

    I think players should be flagged as combatants the second they enter a node thats not their own or a node they don’t have a alliance or guild that owns the node they’ve entered. Or additionally attack any players they don’t have an alliance with.

    Without a system like this I don’t see how players can ward players from other nodes without getting corrupt.

    If your node declares war (war and siege declarations are two different things), then any member of your node can kill any member of their node with no corruption gain. It works the same for guild wars.
  • edited August 1
    vmangman wrote: »
    If your node declares war (war and siege declarations are two different things), then any member of your node can kill any member of their node with no corruption gain. It works the same for guild wars.

    That is true but the fact remains you need guild leaders to be present to declare wars or something of that nature.

    By the time you’ve agreed to take up on war your rival node has already walked through your lands and taken a resource that would tip the balance of the war over to their favor.

    Thats why I suggested (although needs more finesse):
    “I think players should be flagged as combatants the second they enter a node thats not their own or a node they don’t have a alliance or guild that owns the node they’ve entered. Or additionally attack any players they don’t have an alliance with.”

    This way a guild can defend effective immediately rather than wait for leadership to “log in”. Wether to start a war over that would be up to the guild leaders afterwards
  • NeurathNeurath Member
    I won't lie, I plan on not having a Node. If your suggestion happens, I'd be permanently flagged as a Combatant. I do not want to be forced to play in a way I do not want to play. I would not be happy if I am permanently flagged as a combatant.
  • edited August 1
    Neurath wrote: »
    I won't lie, I plan on not having a Node. If your suggestion happens, I'd be permanently flagged as a Combatant. I do not want to be forced to play in a way I do not want to play. I would not be happy if I am permanently flagged as a combatant.

    I understand your concern. My suggestion was to adress the problem I had in mind. I know my suggestion doesn’t solve all the questions and discussions asked here but the fact remains it is a flaw in the system that is absurd IMO
  • NeurathNeurath Member
    edited August 1
    It is impossible at this point to state how anything will work in terms of Resource Gathering. The World will be so big that its impossible to say how many people you'll run into when gathering resources. Also, from the Livestream yesterday it seems resources will be based on Regions and not on Nodes per say, which means multiple Nodes will relate to Regions. I do not see how making people a combatant outside of their Node is conducive to good gameplay overall.
  • edited August 1
    Neurath wrote: »
    It is impossible at this point to state how anything will work in terms of Resource Gathering. The World will be so big that its impossible to say how many people you'll run into when gathering resources. Also, from the Livestream yesterday it seems resources will be based on Regions and not on Nodes per say, which means multiple Nodes will relate to Regions. I do not see how making people a combatant outside of their Node is conducive to good gameplay overall.

    Nor does allowing rival guilds on other nodes walk by you and look into your eye while they take the resources that dont grow in their land to make better items for their guild members or evolve their city into metropolis potentially giving them the advantage over you if they were to decalre war on your guild.

    Just brought up the problem hoping devs can clarify things or have an idea up their sleeves to solve all out concerns.
  • NeurathNeurath Member
    Node Allegiance beats Guild Allegiance. A Guild could own a Castle and be in control of 20% of the Map. Guilds will rarely, if ever, control a Node. You could be part of a Node but you can also face Guild Wars from Guilds inside the same Node.

    If you want to be a crafter, that's fine, but when ALL items decay and need repair, you can't have a situation where Node A can only use Iron Weapons, Node B can only use Bronze weapons and Node C can only use Wooden Weapons.
  • daxiongmao87daxiongmao87 Member
    edited August 1

    But unlike Bag End, that resource isn't your property just because it's in your nodes zone of influence. It's not your house.

    It's more like if a Took from Tookland picked some mushrooms in some area of Buckland.

    True, that resource is not your property even if it lies within your node.
    But if the current corruption system is implemented on the final release of the game, you would in fact watch your rival pick a particular resource thats grown in your node, that would tip the balance of the scales towards your rivals node rather than your node without being able to do a single thing about it

    I think this is fine to have as a risk. It will help define node rivalries specially if it becomes a "problem". Instead of using PVP to dictate who gets that gather able, it's whoever can get there first. And you theoretically should have an advantage against your foreign opponent as they are likely to have to travel farther (from their node) to gather from within your node's region of influence.
  • RokoRoko Member, Braver of Worlds
    I don’t see a way where I can ward players from stealing our nodes resources from players from competing nodes without getting corrupted.

    I see no problems with this.

    IMO nobody should be able to ward resources out in the world without risking getting corrupted regardless of how close they are to where you live.
    2PXdm1m
  • edited August 1
    Roko wrote: »
    I don’t see a way where I can ward players from stealing our nodes resources from players from competing nodes without getting corrupted.

    I see no problems with this.

    IMO nobody should be able to ward resources out in the world without risking getting corrupted regardless of how close they are to where you live.

    Wouldn’t you say that it’s already established that you already can by attacking caravans?
  • CaerylCaeryl Member
    Big absolute no. You can defend a spawn all you want. If it’s valuable, people will fight you to try to take it. If it’s not valuable, then why bother defending it.
  • edited August 1
    Caeryl wrote: »
    Big absolute no. You can defend a spawn all you want. If it’s valuable, people will fight you to try to take it. If it’s not valuable, then why bother defending it.

    But if the people you mentioned fight whoever is taking the rare valuable resources, they’ll get flagged as corrupted because the people taking the resource can just walk away with the resource or corrupt the people fighting by not fighting. Which they can just comeback and kill the corrupt players who have debuffs and take the resources without resistance
  • RokoRoko Member, Braver of Worlds
    caravans are and entirely different scenario.

    You are talking about you or anyone being able to prevent someone else from gathering a resource out in the world without incurring any corruption risk in doing so. And I'm saying I disagree

    A caravan is another system entirely which enables someone to steal already gathered resources. And personally I love the caravan system as described as well.
    2PXdm1m
  • YuyukoyayYuyukoyay Member
    edited August 1
    The system already addresses this though. You lose more resources by not fighting back, so people are going to fight back to reduce this naturally in most cases. Corruption is really just there to keep griefers and pkers in check. I think you shouldn't be able to get resources from players a lot lower level than you though.
    1UL8RIb.gif
  • edited August 1
    Roko wrote: »
    caravans are and entirely different scenario.

    You are talking about you or anyone being able to prevent someone else from gathering a resource out in the world without incurring any corruption risk in doing so. And I'm saying I disagree

    A caravan is another system entirely which enables someone to steal already gathered resources. And personally I love the caravan system as described as well.

    I guess I lost my point in all the discussions I had today, so apologies if Im not making sense.

    The point of the post was to inform the devs that there is a problem with corruption system that allows legitimate competitive actions, such as defending your valuable resources from being taken by rival players, which can give them the advantage over you, which I used as an example.

    My solution was just a suggestion that solved the problem I had in mind. Not a all problem solving solution
  • RokoRoko Member, Braver of Worlds
    The point of the post was to inform that there is a problem with corruption system that allows legitimate competitive actions, such as defending your valuable resources from being taken by rival players, that give them the advantage over you, which I used as an example. My solution was just a suggestion that solved the problem I had in mind.

    the thing you are ignoring is that the resources are not yours until after you have gathered them. It doesn't matter if they grow inside your jacket's pocket, your forehead, your backyard, or half way across the world.

    2PXdm1m
  • Caeryl wrote: »
    Big absolute no. You can defend a spawn all you want. If it’s valuable, people will fight you to try to take it. If it’s not valuable, then why bother defending it.

    But if the people you mentioned fight whoever is taking the rare valuable resources, they’ll get flagged as corrupted because the people taking the resource can just walk away with the resource or corrupt the people fighting by not fighting. Which they can just comeback and kill the corrupt players who have debuffs and take the resources without resistance

    You drop half of your gatherables/certificates on death if you don't fight back.
    If they got the resources, they WILL fight back. If it's as rare as you say, it doesn't make sense to not fight back.

    Also, if they die, you don't respawn close, it might be really far, which makes you win, you get the resource and now just need to lay low until corruption is gone.
  • Roko wrote: »
    The point of the post was to inform that there is a problem with corruption system that allows legitimate competitive actions, such as defending your valuable resources from being taken by rival players, that give them the advantage over you, which I used as an example. My solution was just a suggestion that solved the problem I had in mind.

    the thing you are ignoring is that the resources are not yours until after you have gathered them. It doesn't matter if they grow inside your jacket's pocket, your forehead, your backyard, or half way across the world.
    I think you have bigger problems if your forehead is sprouting shrooms.
  • I guess this the best way I can explain the problem with the current corruption system before I go to bed.

    Mixer and Twitch are spawned in neighboring nodes. Both Mixer and Twitch put time,sweat, blood and tears to build their cities. Because of RNG Mixer ends up with a level 3 city and Twitch has a level 4 city. Mixer is on the verge of reaching level 4 however, Twitch is now on the verge of reaching level 5 Metropolis. Because RNG, a valuable resource required to get to level 5 is spawned in Mixers node. Twitch walk over to Mixer’s node and begin to harvest this resource. Mixer gets wind of this because they know they wont be able to get a Metropolis if Twitch gets it first. Mixer begins to defend this resource from Twitch but is flagged and corrupted because it attacked Twitches players.

    The point here is that Mixer is being punished for competing against Twitch and is flagged as a player killer.

    This is a problem IMO. Hence why I have brought it up
  • You seem to have the gist of the PvP flag system. But I think you misunderstand how corruption works.

    Also, your situation is hypothetical. It almost seems a waste of time to construct it and debate it since we don't know if that's actually feasible. Blood, sweat, tears, and hours spent farming and crafting are completely irrelevant to the validity your argument. RNG does not determine if a Node advances, that - as far as we know - is only determined by player activity, which directly contributes. I'm not sure a special resource is required to rank up a Node. (Community?) But what you are proposing in your hypothetical situation actually introduces the factor. (Again: am I wrong, Community?)

    As for the idea of automatically flagging as a Combatant: I think it's a bad idea. It distorts the proposed system. Additionally, it introduces too much RNG into the player experience via resource spawns. What I mean is: the location at which the resource spawns would, by virtue of geographic location, make it harder for outside agents to acquire.

    Keep in mind that (according to your example) if a Node is Level 4, then the adjacent nodes are vassals. This further increases the distance of rival agents from the resource in question. They won't even know it exists, presumably. So, right at the outset, rival agents are at a disadvantage. To compound the disadvantage, as soon as they step into the outlying vassal nodes they are flagged as combatants - even though they have not entered combat and have to basically campaign through enemy territory against all comers to have a chance to acquire the resource.

    This seems overwhelmingly skewed. I am against it, as I understand it.
    "Don't be hasty."
  • You understanding of the PvP system is not correct.

    1920px-pvp_flagging_diagram.png

    You only get corrupted if people don't fight back.
  • RokoRoko Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited August 1
    and i don't think this is a problem.

    you see resources don't spawn inside nodes they are not anybody's until after they are gathered. Resources spawn outside the nodes themselves and it's first come first served.

    in your example Node A got a rare resource spawn just outside it's town gates, at this moment Node A has the head start to get said resource, they decide to ignore it or maybe they didn't have any gatherers with the necessary skill to get it, or for whatever reason no Node A's citizen picked the rare resource right next to their node. Suddenly someone from Node B decides to make the trip and go gather the rare resource that Node A neglected. If they manage to gather it first in spite of being at a disadvantage for being farther away for it's spawn location to begin with. At this point now after it has been gathered it belongs to Node B's citizen and he is now carrying 10 units of this rare resource in their mule.

    Now you, a citizen of node A is angry because they got it before you did even though you had the clear advantage with it being at your doorstep and all. So you, a citizen of Node A want it back, and you go attack Node B's citizen to at least get to loot part of this resource from their body.

    Now Node B's citizen has a choice, either he remains a non-combatant, letting you kill him and loot 8 out of the 10 units of the rare resource from his dead body along with some corruption. Or he can fight back and become a combatant.

    Why the hell would he fight and risk losing after you jumped him you may be asking yourself.

    Well let me explain. If Node B's citizen becomes a combatant and loses the fight anyway you only get to loot 4 of the rare resource from his body instead of 8 and no corruption for you, he keeps 6, you get 4 and nobody is corrupted, if he wins he keeps all 10, you get 0, and nobody is corrupted.

    See if he lets you kill him he only gets to keep 2 instead of 6, sure he got you corrupted, but if the resource is so significant he might actually be willing keep more of it than just giving you the corruption.
    2PXdm1m
  • His (OP's) hypothesis is predicated on the need for a rare resource that must spawn and be gathered specifically in order to rank up or advance a Node.

    I have not heard of this mechanic. Is there such a promise? Has there been discussion among Intrepid of such an idea?
    "Don't be hasty."
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