"No participation trophy"

Lostforever

I have heard Steven say this number of times that this games gives "no participation trophy". You have to "earn" your rewards in the game. This is great and I am all for this.

However I have also seen Steven claims (indirectly) that if players excludes other players from their group for number of reasons such as poor performance (lack of dps etc), then that's a toxic behavior.

Is he not contradicting himself here? The idea of "No participation trophy" means you have to measure other people's performance. If you have a flying mount then you have put in the time and effort to do it and the flying mount is the measure.

So why can't player measures each others performance? Why is that toxic?

Tragnar

I believe Steven is referring to "pug" environment where the new people you meet should not be judged by their dps number in your UI, but at the same time there should be combat logs for guild post encounter analysis to theorycraft anything that you need

Noaani

Lostforever wrote: »

So why can't player measures each others performance?

Because everyone deserves a participation trophy!

The toxic argument doesn't hold up - this game is built on toxicity.

Samson

Tragnar

Participation trophy spits on hard accomplished work of people that care about something.

Giving people a fair chance is totally different thing though

Lostforever

noaani wrote: »

Lostforever wrote: »

So why can't player measures each others performance?

Because everyone deserves a participation trophy!

The toxic argument doesn't hold up - this game is built on toxicity.

Exactly. I never bought the toxic argument at all.

On one hand, this game is designed to encourage conflict and if you have player conflict, you will have toxicity galore and DPS meters are least of your concerns! Player conflict seems to be the name of the game. We are going to fight over resources, mobs etc.

The main reason for banning DPS meters seems so that players can feel good about themselves and to me thats participation trophy

Malc

I quite like that there won't necessarily be DPS meters. Essentially, you'll judge a player by who they are, not what they are able to achieve. A proper social environment where you aren't making friends based solely on how much DPS they can accomplish.

Lostforever

Tragnar wrote: »

I believe Steven is referring to "pug" environment where the new people you meet should not be judged by their dps number in your UI, but at the same time there should be combat logs for guild post encounter analysis to theorycraft anything that you need

People are going to judge other people. You cannot stop human behavior. Since we cannot stop people from judging , why not give them the tools to judge accurately?

Lostforever

Malc wrote: »

I quite like that there won't necessarily be DPS meters. Essentially, you'll judge a player by who they are, not what they are able to achieve. A proper social environment where you aren't making friends based solely on how much DPS they can accomplish.

I don't understand what you are saying maybe I am misunderstanding you but I don't want to judge you by who you are and if fact judge you by what you achieve. Why is this wrong ?

Judging you by who you are is tantamount to racism/bigotry in real life! Its what people do that matters not who they are.

Malc

There might be a player out there who one day becomes your best friend, but because he achieved a slightly lower percentile of DPS than you expected of him, the pair of you never met. At least this way you'll have enough time to get to know a person and perhaps be a little more forgiving to them, as it will take you longer to determine as to whether or not you wish to share their company in progressive, end game content?

CaptnChuck

You make good points, but the thing is, the majority of MMO players are casuals and as a result, they hate dps meters. Hardcore players obviously want dps meters to see who is the best at their class and who isn't.

Personally, I'm somewhere in between. I want a personal meter when i'm against training dummies so that I can improve myself, but at the same time I don't want group-based dps meters, as this will lead to an extremely toxic environment. It will also promote meta-gaming by forcing you to pick one class over another simply because it has more dps.

Noaani

Malc wrote: »

There might be a player out there who one day becomes your best friend, but because he achieved a slightly lower percentile of DPS than you expected of him, the pair of you never met. At least this way you'll have enough time to get to know a person and perhaps be a little more forgiving to them, as it will take you longer to determine as to whether or not you wish to share their company in progressive, end game content?

If he is going to become my best friend in game, he would want to play the game in as efficient a manner as possible.

Generally speaking, people tend to form friendships in games with people that play the game in a similar manner to them.

Malc

It's a shame if you only base your friendships in games based on players who are equal skill to you. Over the years I've accumulated a great number of friends, both of higher and lower skill than myself. That doesn't mean that we cannot have fun enjoying the content before us.

Noaani

CaptnChuck wrote: »

It will also promote meta-gaming by forcing you to pick one class over another simply because it has more dps.

This will happen regardless of a combat tracker existing or not.

Difference is, if the bulk of players don't have a combat tracker, and if their use is against the rules, there is no guarantee that the class/build that everyone thinks is the best actually is the best. People will tell you that you have to play a specific class because they think it is the best, not necessarily because it is the best.

Lostforever

Malc wrote: »

There might be a player out there who one day becomes your best friend, but because he achieved a slightly lower percentile of DPS than you expected of him, the pair of you never met. At least this way you'll have enough time to get to know a person and perhaps be a little more forgiving to them, as it will take you longer to determine as to whether or not you wish to share their company in progressive, end game content?

Here is the thing thought, if I am a player who excluded someone for their poor performance without giving them a chance, then I don't think I am good person and you don't want to be friends with me

What I am saying is that, if I am type of player who exclude someone based on DPS meters, then I will find other ways to exclude you, DPS meters or not.

I am not such a person, I am part of casual guild in EQ2 and we use DPS meters to help each other out.

Songcaller

DPS Meters won't be useful. The main issue will be who has Experience Debt and is lowing the Drop Percentages in the group content. Hours of wipes until a Boss is dead will be worthless. Theory Crafting will be optimal and contestations will be prime.

A DPS Meter won't stop another Guild from contestation.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

DPS Meters won't be useful.

This is blatantly untrue.

While there may be other factors than your class and build, as long as there are options that can be made, there will be a reason to objectively assess those options.

Lostforever

Neurath wrote: »

DPS Meters won't be useful. The main issue will be who has Experience Debt and is lowing the Drop Percentages in the group content. Hours of wipes until a Boss is dead will be worthless. Theory Crafting will be optimal and contestations will be prime.

A DPS Meter won't stop another Guild from contestation.

DPS meters are being used as catch all term. What people really mean is detailed combat feedback from the game and hence combat logs as to whats happening.

I don't know what you mean by Theory crafting but anyone who is interested in combat feedback/logs/dps etc are also a theory crater. We alll have our own theory as to how to fight a boss, how classes work etc but we want to test our theory too and for that we need feedback from game, else the theory on it own without experimentation is useless.

daxiongmao87

Giving a person a chance to participate is not a participation trophy. Kinda two different things there.

Songcaller

If you need third party tools to become 'The Best' then you are not 'The Best.'

What is 'The Best' for one person, won't be 'The Best' for a different person.

We used to theory craft through Duels...it is simple to see your damage output when you strike someone in cloth armour, light armour, medium armour or heavy armour. We do not use DPS Meters for that.

Also we theory craft with in-game knowledge (Something I can't do until stats are known). We literally build builds and test the builds. DPS Meters replaced these old school methods/skills. In effect, the original Hardcore Players were replaced by Standard Players with DPS Meters.

It is all well and good to want to be a Hardcore Player, but, a DPS Meter doesn't make you a Hardcore Player, it makes you a Player with an Aid.

Noaani

daxiongmao87 wrote: »

Giving a person a chance to participate is not a participation trophy. Kinda two different things there.

Giving people a reward even if they aren't pulling their weight is though.

Lostforever

Malc wrote: »

It's a shame if you only base your friendships in games based on players who are equal skill to you. Over the years I've accumulated a great number of friends, both of higher and lower skill than myself. That doesn't mean that we cannot have fun enjoying the content before us.

Sorry but what you said is willful misrepresentation of the request for DPS meters etc as something else. We all have friends who are better players than us and also worse players than us. This has nothing to do with wanting to know the numbers.

Noaani

Lostforever wrote: »

Malc wrote: »

It's a shame if you only base your friendships in games based on players who are equal skill to you. Over the years I've accumulated a great number of friends, both of higher and lower skill than myself. That doesn't mean that we cannot have fun enjoying the content before us.

Sorry but what you said is willful misrepresentation of the request for DPS meters etc as something else. We all have friends who are better players than us and also worse players than us. This has nothing to do with wanting to know the numbers.

Indeed.

It is a mindset, not a skill level.

Malc

So if it's a mindset, why is a DPS meter a necessity? I love DPS meters as much as anyone else but also see the arguments against them. (Admittedly playing devil's advocate more than anything currently.)

Noaani

Malc wrote: »

So if it's a mindset, why is a DPS meter a necessity? I love DPS meters as much as anyone else but also see the arguments against them. (Admittedly playing devil's advocate more than anything currently.)

This doesn't follow on from your original point at all.

We say we want combat trackers for various reasons, you say we may miss out on making a friend, we say we make friends with like minded people who will also want a combat tracker, you then ask why we need a combat tracker.

Devils advocate is a thing, but your line of thinking still needs to make some sense.

Malc

My original implication was that from experience, including personal, if I see a player with lower DPS than my personal expectation it's very unlikely that I'll play with that player again. When in reality, why should we necessarily focus so much on that, that we ultimately miss out on the potential of making a friend? Who the other individual is, is not necessarily defined in their ability, or inability to pull of their rotation perfectly.

Judging by the points you've made, to me, it seems like you intend to judge others you play with based on a few statistics in a graph?

Aardvark

Lostforever wrote: »

I have heard Steven say this number of times that this games gives "no participation trophy". You have to "earn" your rewards in the game. This is great and I am all for this.

However I have also seen Steven claims (indirectly) that if players excludes other players from their group for number of reasons such as poor performance (lack of dps etc), then that's a toxic behavior.

Is he not contradicting himself here? The idea of "No participation trophy" means you have to measure other people's performance. If you have a flying mount then you have put in the time and effort to do it and the flying mount is the measure.

So why can't player measures each others performance? Why is that toxic?

Well also have hard counter pvp participation wins and raid dps qualifying you for loot instead of of your own dps.

Lostforever

Malc wrote: »

My original implication was that from experience, including personal, if I see a player with lower DPS than my personal expectation it's very unlikely that I'll play with that player again. When in reality, why should we necessarily focus so much on that, that we ultimately miss out on the potential of making a friend? Who the other individual is, is not necessarily defined in their ability, or inability to pull of their rotation perfectly.

Judging by the points you've made, to me, it seems like you intend to judge others you play with based on a few statistics in a graph?

What is the basis of your friendships in real life? Friendships in real life as well as games are based on some characteristic of the person. Some people are "funny", some people have the share same "interest" as you etc. So why can't "good player" be the basis of a friendship in a game?

Lostforever

Aardvark wrote: »

Lostforever wrote: »

I have heard Steven say this number of times that this games gives "no participation trophy". You have to "earn" your rewards in the game. This is great and I am all for this.

However I have also seen Steven claims (indirectly) that if players excludes other players from their group for number of reasons such as poor performance (lack of dps etc), then that's a toxic behavior.

Is he not contradicting himself here? The idea of "No participation trophy" means you have to measure other people's performance. If you have a flying mount then you have put in the time and effort to do it and the flying mount is the measure.

So why can't player measures each others performance? Why is that toxic?

Well also have hard counter pvp participation wins and raid dps qualifying you for loot instead of of your own dps.

Exactly my point! At one point in the latest dev stream he says if you do more dps than the other group, you get more xp and loot. How do we know we are doing more or less DPS than the other group?

I will go back to my original point that Steven is contradicting himself

StevenSharif

Hello! The toxicity I am referring to for the meters does not contradict the participation trophy philosophy for the following reasons;

IMO when you choose to exclude someone due to their performance or build (which happens often, not always) you are choosing the easiest path to success. This path is more easily available to groups that parse combat data through dps meters.

The desire to obfuscate (or make less prevalent by not offering this feature) so that groups are encouraged to grow together and help one another become better by more old school/organic methods of trial and error, efforts in watching other people during the raid, by failing repeatedly until success is possible. Now, could people use meters to aid in this task? Yes, but in my experience it isn’t used in this way..more often it is an exclusionary tool designed to separate players.

So to conclude,

My stance on participation trophies is that things should be hard, people should fail, the bitter taste of defeat is what makes success that much more rewarding. Helping other players learn encounter strategy, and fine tuning their play style for high end content is an important part of eliminating participation trophy. Growing together is a good thing, and that includes failing together as a means to drive for success together.

My stance on dps meters, these help automate the encounter, provide an easier way to complete content, creates less failures by eliminating the less experienced or less optimized players, defeat becomes less bitter tasting because it is experienced less often, and the reward is now glancing at a chart and eliminating the lesser players.


I’ve given my opinion and decision on the meters discussion and have read the opposing and supporting arguments. Hope those who disagree can understand the decision. If not, that’s ok too! ❤️

Lostforever

StevenSharif wrote: »

Hello! The toxicity I am referring to for the meters does not contradict the participation trophy philosophy for the following reasons;

IMO when you choose to exclude someone due to their performance or build (which happens often, not always) you are choosing the easiest path to success. This path is more easily available to groups that parse combat data through dps meters.

The desire to obfuscate (or make less prevalent by not offering this feature) so that groups are encouraged to grow together and help one another become better by more old school/organic methods of trial and error, efforts in watching other people during the raid, by failing repeatedly until success is possible. Now, could people use meters to aid in this task? Yes, but in my experience it isn’t used in this way..more often it is an exclusionary tool designed to separate players.

So to conclude,

My stance on participation trophies is that things should be hard, people should fail, the bitter taste of defeat is what makes success that much more rewarding. Helping other players learn encounter strategy, and fine tuning their play style for high end content is an important part of eliminating participation trophy. Growing together is a good thing, and that include failing together as a means to drive for success together.

My stance on dps meters, these help automate the encounter, provide an easier way to complete content, creates less failures by eliminating the less experienced or less optimized players, defeat becomes less bitter tasting because it is experienced less often, and the reward is now glancing at a chart and eliminating the lesser players.


I’ve given my opinion and decision on the meters discussion and have read the opposing and supporting arguments. Hope those who disagree can understand the decision. If not, that’s ok too! ❤️

Hi Steven,

Thanks for taking the time to reply

I am posting this reply as in many places you have asked for feedback. My main aim is to get you to change your mind in some way and I hope that ok. And hopefully I don't come across as disrespectful

Those who excludes players due to performance will always find a way to do that regardless of DPS meters or not. This happens in many games which do not have DPS meters. I point you towards GW2, ESO and swtor. Only way to work around this issue to hide pretty much all information about a player from other players. You have to hide their gear, stats etc. If you did that, you are breaking an egg with the hammer. Which is fine too as this is your game but I think the game will be poorer or it

Yes DPS meters makes certain aspects of the game easier, no question about it. However you say the game has to be organic and we have to learn by trail and error. But without combat feedback from the game how can we learn by trail and error. For example, I hit a mob and I will know how much damage I did. Or I heal a mob, and I will know how much healing I did. We need basic information like this in the game, else you can't play it. Without feedback from the game, how can we learn by train and error? If this feedback is available then you have DPS "measure" in game anyway as players can see whats going on.

Also in the latest dev stream, you mentioned that, loot rights are based on how much DPS a group is doing. So DPS is huge and important aspect in the game. How will the "loosing" group know who much DPS they did to loose the loot right over the winner? Will the game tell them somewhere? For example your group did 20% DPS and the other group did 80% DPS, therefore they get the loot right?