Also to add, the game is designed around player conflict and competition. This is a good thing and I love it! But where there is competition, there will be toxicity since some people are idiots! The amount of toxicity DPS meters will generates pales in comparison to what PvP and its related systems will generate. This what I meant about you contradicting your self. By toxicity, I mean bad player behavior.
Helping other players learn encounter strategy, and fine tuning their play style for high end content is an important part of eliminating participation trophy. Growing together is a good thing, and that include failing together as a means to drive for success together.
Sorry about the spam as I read and reread your reply, more thought are coming to my mind!
How can we help each other and learn, if the game is obfuscate information from us? We need feedback from the game and if we have feedback, we can use that information for good and bad.
Prior games that had no DPS meter (classic EQ!) had raids that had to be figured out. Elitism still existed, but wasn't nearly as prevalent.
Wrong on the first point, EQ1 had detailed combat logs. You can parse them using 3rd tools. You knew exactly what the other person was doing.
Yes we have more elitism now than before, but this has nothing to do with DPS meters etc. Its separate topic. ESO, GW2 and STRO does not have DPS meters yet elitism is big thing in those games.
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ponziniMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Hello! The toxicity I am referring to for the meters does not contradict the participation trophy philosophy for the following reasons;
IMO when you choose to exclude someone due to their performance or build (which happens often, not always) you are choosing the easiest path to success. This path is more easily available to groups that parse combat data through dps meters.
The desire to obfuscate (or make less prevalent by not offering this feature) so that groups are encouraged to grow together and help one another become better by more old school/organic methods of trial and error, efforts in watching other people during the raid, by failing repeatedly until success is possible. Now, could people use meters to aid in this task? Yes, but in my experience it isn’t used in this way..more often it is an exclusionary tool designed to separate players.
So to conclude,
My stance on participation trophies is that things should be hard, people should fail, the bitter taste of defeat is what makes success that much more rewarding. Helping other players learn encounter strategy, and fine tuning their play style for high end content is an important part of eliminating participation trophy. Growing together is a good thing, and that include failing together as a means to drive for success together.
My stance on dps meters, these help automate the encounter, provide an easier way to complete content, creates less failures by eliminating the less experienced or less optimized players, defeat becomes less bitter tasting because it is experienced less often, and the reward is now glancing at a chart and eliminating the lesser players.
I’ve given my opinion and decision on the meters discussion and have read the opposing and supporting arguments. Hope those who disagree can understand the decision. If not, that’s ok too! ❤️
Hi Steven,
Thanks for taking the time to reply
I am posting this reply as in many places you have asked for feedback. My main aim is to get you to change your mind in some way and I hope that ok. And hopefully I don't come across as disrespectful
Those who excludes players due to performance will always find a way to do that regardless of DPS meters or not. This happens in many games which do not have DPS meters. I point you towards GW2, ESO and swtor. Only way to work around this issue to hide pretty much all information about a player from other players. You have to hide their gear, stats etc. If you did that, you are breaking an egg with the hammer. Which is fine too as this is your game but I think the game will be poorer or it
Yes DPS meters makes certain aspects of the game easier, no question about it. However you say the game has to be organic and we have to learn by trail and error. But without combat feedback from the game how can we learn by trail and error. For example, I hit a mob and I will know how much damage I did. Or I heal a mob, and I will know how much healing I did. We need basic information like this in the game, else you can't play it. Without feedback from the game, how can we learn by train and error? If this feedback is available then you have DPS "measure" in game anyway as players can see whats going on.
Also in the latest dev stream, you mentioned that, loot rights are based on how much DPS a group is doing. So DPS is huge and important aspect in the game. How will the "loosing" group know who much DPS they did to loose the loot right over the winner? Will the game tell them somewhere? For example your group did 20% DPS and the other group did 80% DPS, therefore they get the loot right?
1. It will not happen as often though. Also why give those players another tool to exclude players?
2. You do have combat feedback. You will see your damage when you hit a mob and you have combat logs. You just wont have a meter than distills everyone you did down to a DPS number. You'll have to guage for yourself how to improve and now have your computer do it for you.
3. Same as above really. Figure it out on your own. You have combat logs and will just have to guage your performance on your own.
Prior games that had no DPS meter (classic EQ!) had raids that had to be figured out. Elitism still existed, but wasn't nearly as prevalent.
Wrong on the first point, EQ1 had detailed combat logs. You can parse them using 3rd tools. You knew exactly what the other person was doing.
Yes we have more elitism now than before, but this has nothing to do with DPS meters etc. Its separate topic. ESO, GW2 and STRO does not have DPS meters yet elitism is big thing in those games.
Combat logs I think we're said to be available in AoC unless I misread. Which is why I specifically mentioned DPS meters, not combat logging.
And true, DPS meters weren't the sole cause of elitism. However I strongly agree with Steven that DPS meters are not a necessity for end game, and do contribute to toxicity.
Prior games that had no DPS meter (classic EQ!) had raids that had to be figured out. Elitism still existed, but wasn't nearly as prevalent.
Wrong on the first point, EQ1 had detailed combat logs. You can parse them using 3rd tools. You knew exactly what the other person was doing.
Yes we have more elitism now than before, but this has nothing to do with DPS meters etc. Its separate topic. ESO, GW2 and STRO does not have DPS meters yet elitism is big thing in those games.
Combat logs I think we're said to be available in AoC unless I misread. Which is why I specifically mentioned DPS meters, not combat logging.
And true, DPS meters weren't the sole cause of elitism. However I strongly agree with Steven that DPS meters are not a necessity for end game, and do contribute to toxicity.
DPS meters can contribute to toxicity. I don't think anyone disputes that. The issue is how much toxicity they contribute and I think not much compared to PvP and related systems in the game.
If you are really worried about toxicity, then PvP game is the wrong type of game to play.
Hello! The toxicity I am referring to for the meters does not contradict the participation trophy philosophy for the following reasons;
IMO when you choose to exclude someone due to their performance or build (which happens often, not always) you are choosing the easiest path to success. This path is more easily available to groups that parse combat data through dps meters.
The desire to obfuscate (or make less prevalent by not offering this feature) so that groups are encouraged to grow together and help one another become better by more old school/organic methods of trial and error, efforts in watching other people during the raid, by failing repeatedly until success is possible. Now, could people use meters to aid in this task? Yes, but in my experience it isn’t used in this way..more often it is an exclusionary tool designed to separate players.
So to conclude,
My stance on participation trophies is that things should be hard, people should fail, the bitter taste of defeat is what makes success that much more rewarding. Helping other players learn encounter strategy, and fine tuning their play style for high end content is an important part of eliminating participation trophy. Growing together is a good thing, and that include failing together as a means to drive for success together.
My stance on dps meters, these help automate the encounter, provide an easier way to complete content, creates less failures by eliminating the less experienced or less optimized players, defeat becomes less bitter tasting because it is experienced less often, and the reward is now glancing at a chart and eliminating the lesser players.
I’ve given my opinion and decision on the meters discussion and have read the opposing and supporting arguments. Hope those who disagree can understand the decision. If not, that’s ok too! ❤️
Hi Steven,
Thanks for taking the time to reply
I am posting this reply as in many places you have asked for feedback. My main aim is to get you to change your mind in some way and I hope that ok. And hopefully I don't come across as disrespectful
Those who excludes players due to performance will always find a way to do that regardless of DPS meters or not. This happens in many games which do not have DPS meters. I point you towards GW2, ESO and swtor. Only way to work around this issue to hide pretty much all information about a player from other players. You have to hide their gear, stats etc. If you did that, you are breaking an egg with the hammer. Which is fine too as this is your game but I think the game will be poorer or it
Yes DPS meters makes certain aspects of the game easier, no question about it. However you say the game has to be organic and we have to learn by trail and error. But without combat feedback from the game how can we learn by trail and error. For example, I hit a mob and I will know how much damage I did. Or I heal a mob, and I will know how much healing I did. We need basic information like this in the game, else you can't play it. Without feedback from the game, how can we learn by train and error? If this feedback is available then you have DPS "measure" in game anyway as players can see whats going on.
Also in the latest dev stream, you mentioned that, loot rights are based on how much DPS a group is doing. So DPS is huge and important aspect in the game. How will the "loosing" group know who much DPS they did to loose the loot right over the winner? Will the game tell them somewhere? For example your group did 20% DPS and the other group did 80% DPS, therefore they get the loot right?
1. It will not happen as often though. Also why give those players another tool to exclude players?
2. You do have combat feedback. You will see your damage when you hit a mob and you have combat logs. You just wont have a meter than distills everyone you did down to a DPS number. You'll have to guage for yourself how to improve and now have your computer do it for you.
3. Same as above really. Figure it out on your own. You have combat logs and will just have to guage your performance on your own.
If you have combat feedback, you have indirect DPS meters.
Prior games that had no DPS meter (classic EQ!) had raids that had to be figured out. Elitism still existed, but wasn't nearly as prevalent.
Wrong on the first point, EQ1 had detailed combat logs. You can parse them using 3rd tools. You knew exactly what the other person was doing.
Yes we have more elitism now than before, but this has nothing to do with DPS meters etc. Its separate topic. ESO, GW2 and STRO does not have DPS meters yet elitism is big thing in those games.
Combat logs I think we're said to be available in AoC unless I misread. Which is why I specifically mentioned DPS meters, not combat logging.
And true, DPS meters weren't the sole cause of elitism. However I strongly agree with Steven that DPS meters are not a necessity for end game, and do contribute to toxicity.
DPS meters can contribute to toxicity. I don't think anyone disputes that. The issue is how much toxicity they contribute and I think not much compared to PvP and related systems in the game.
If you are really worried about toxicity, then PvP game is the wrong type of game to play.
Toxicity is always going to be a thing. It doesn't mean we shouldn't combat it or minimize it. And to be honest i think I'll be fine with PvP with the current design of the corruption system. We are taking about DPS meters and raiding anyway, not pvp
Prior games that had no DPS meter (classic EQ!) had raids that had to be figured out. Elitism still existed, but wasn't nearly as prevalent.
Wrong on the first point, EQ1 had detailed combat logs. You can parse them using 3rd tools. You knew exactly what the other person was doing.
Yes we have more elitism now than before, but this has nothing to do with DPS meters etc. Its separate topic. ESO, GW2 and STRO does not have DPS meters yet elitism is big thing in those games.
Combat logs I think we're said to be available in AoC unless I misread. Which is why I specifically mentioned DPS meters, not combat logging.
And true, DPS meters weren't the sole cause of elitism. However I strongly agree with Steven that DPS meters are not a necessity for end game, and do contribute to toxicity.
DPS meters can contribute to toxicity. I don't think anyone disputes that. The issue is how much toxicity they contribute and I think not much compared to PvP and related systems in the game.
If you are really worried about toxicity, then PvP game is the wrong type of game to play.
Toxicity is always going to be a thing. It doesn't mean we shouldn't combat it or minimize it. And to be honest i think I'll be fine with PvP with the current design of the corruption system. We are taking about DPS meters and raiding anyway, not pvp
if the biggest argument against DPS meters is toxicity, then it does not fly in a PvP game since the amount of bad player behavior PvP bring to the game will be huge compared to the bad behavior DPS meters will bring. That's all I am saying .
Also DPS matter in PvP as well.
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StevenSharifModerator, Member, Staff, Avatar of the Phoenix, KickstarterStaff ›
Those who excludes players due to performance will always find a way to do that regardless of DPS meters or not. This happens in many games which do not have DPS meters. I point you towards GW2, ESO and swtor. Only way to work around this issue to hide pretty much all information about a player from other players. You have to hide their gear, stats etc. If you did that, you are breaking an egg with the hammer.
I think this tends to be a standard misconception that acts in essentially this manner.
Supposition; Eliminating DPS meters will not stop all exclusionary activities related to performance data gathering.
Therefore; We should not try to stop any exclusionary activities related to performance data gathering
I think it's important to remember, my decision is not intended to stop all toxicity relating to meters. We will be providing combat data for individual players in their chat window, that players can filter and analyze for themselves. The goal is to mitigate and make the toxic practice less prevalent through the ease that DPS meters provide. Also to place actionable enforcement for players who attempt to circumvent the decision by use of 3rd party programs, for which we will be monitoring.
But without combat feedback from the game how can we learn by trail and error.
Long before the advent of DPS meters, players were completing content through creative strategies and collective learning/observations. This type of content progression is the desired means of success in Ashes. It is harder, yes.
if the biggest argument against DPS meters is toxicity, then it does not fly in a PvP game since the amount of bad player behavior PvP bring to the game will be huge compared to the bad behavior DPS meters will bring. That's all I am saying .
The corruption system is designed to work against bad PvP behavior.
Also in the latest dev stream, you mentioned that, loot rights are based on how much DPS a group is doing. So DPS is huge and important aspect in the game. How will the "loosing" group know who much DPS they did to loose the loot right over the winner? Will the game tell them somewhere? For example your group did 20% DPS and the other group did 80% DPS, therefore they get the loot right?
The losing group will know they did less dps because the received less loot. Trials and error friend.
"We will be providing combat data for individual players in their chat window, that players can filter and analyze for themselves."
This pretty much clears everything up.
Its not like other games haven't had combat logs. The problem is certain people want more than Combat Logs, which is why we go in circles. Some say 'It has combat logs so we can easily create third party applications from these logs'. I don't imagine we won't continue to go around in circles despite the clear attempts to stop the cyclic behaviours.
Edit: Sometimes we can help others, and, sometimes others don't want to be helped (Except by a DPS Meter).
Once again thank you for your reply. I should be mad at your reply but I am pleasantly happy due to the way you answered
Whats wrong in excluding other players based on performance? I am not saying I am such a player, but I am curious why you think its wrong?
You say we will get combat data in the chat window. Is this only for the player in question or can we see other players data in our chat? such as raid or party members?
Thanks
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Those who excludes players due to performance will always find a way to do that regardless of DPS meters or not. This happens in many games which do not have DPS meters. I point you towards GW2, ESO and swtor. Only way to work around this issue to hide pretty much all information about a player from other players. You have to hide their gear, stats etc. If you did that, you are breaking an egg with the hammer.
I think this tends to be a standard misconception that acts in essentially this manner.
Supposition; Eliminating DPS meters will not stop all exclusionary activities related to performance data gathering.
Therefore; We should not try to stop any exclusionary activities related to performance data gathering
I think it's important to remember, my decision is not intended to stop all toxicity relating to meters. We will be providing combat data for individual players in their chat window, that players can filter and analyze for themselves. The goal is to mitigate and make the toxic practice less prevalent through the ease that DPS meters provide. Also to place actionable enforcement for players who attempt to circumvent the decision by use of 3rd party programs, for which we will be monitoring.
A common saying because it’s true is “don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good”. It’s a very true aphorism. If you exclude every system that doesn’t do a perfect job then you’ll be left with nothing. What’s important is whether a system makes things better, not whether or not it eliminates the problem entirely.
It’s just like how people are worried that we can’t eliminate all cheaters, gold farmers, etc. So why bother? You bother because if you can stop most of them, or at least a significant proportion, then it’s worth doing.
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ponziniMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Hello! The toxicity I am referring to for the meters does not contradict the participation trophy philosophy for the following reasons;
IMO when you choose to exclude someone due to their performance or build (which happens often, not always) you are choosing the easiest path to success. This path is more easily available to groups that parse combat data through dps meters.
The desire to obfuscate (or make less prevalent by not offering this feature) so that groups are encouraged to grow together and help one another become better by more old school/organic methods of trial and error, efforts in watching other people during the raid, by failing repeatedly until success is possible. Now, could people use meters to aid in this task? Yes, but in my experience it isn’t used in this way..more often it is an exclusionary tool designed to separate players.
So to conclude,
My stance on participation trophies is that things should be hard, people should fail, the bitter taste of defeat is what makes success that much more rewarding. Helping other players learn encounter strategy, and fine tuning their play style for high end content is an important part of eliminating participation trophy. Growing together is a good thing, and that include failing together as a means to drive for success together.
My stance on dps meters, these help automate the encounter, provide an easier way to complete content, creates less failures by eliminating the less experienced or less optimized players, defeat becomes less bitter tasting because it is experienced less often, and the reward is now glancing at a chart and eliminating the lesser players.
I’ve given my opinion and decision on the meters discussion and have read the opposing and supporting arguments. Hope those who disagree can understand the decision. If not, that’s ok too! ❤️
Hi Steven,
Thanks for taking the time to reply
I am posting this reply as in many places you have asked for feedback. My main aim is to get you to change your mind in some way and I hope that ok. And hopefully I don't come across as disrespectful
Those who excludes players due to performance will always find a way to do that regardless of DPS meters or not. This happens in many games which do not have DPS meters. I point you towards GW2, ESO and swtor. Only way to work around this issue to hide pretty much all information about a player from other players. You have to hide their gear, stats etc. If you did that, you are breaking an egg with the hammer. Which is fine too as this is your game but I think the game will be poorer or it
Yes DPS meters makes certain aspects of the game easier, no question about it. However you say the game has to be organic and we have to learn by trail and error. But without combat feedback from the game how can we learn by trail and error. For example, I hit a mob and I will know how much damage I did. Or I heal a mob, and I will know how much healing I did. We need basic information like this in the game, else you can't play it. Without feedback from the game, how can we learn by train and error? If this feedback is available then you have DPS "measure" in game anyway as players can see whats going on.
Also in the latest dev stream, you mentioned that, loot rights are based on how much DPS a group is doing. So DPS is huge and important aspect in the game. How will the "loosing" group know who much DPS they did to loose the loot right over the winner? Will the game tell them somewhere? For example your group did 20% DPS and the other group did 80% DPS, therefore they get the loot right?
1. It will not happen as often though. Also why give those players another tool to exclude players?
2. You do have combat feedback. You will see your damage when you hit a mob and you have combat logs. You just wont have a meter than distills everyone you did down to a DPS number. You'll have to guage for yourself how to improve and now have your computer do it for you.
3. Same as above really. Figure it out on your own. You have combat logs and will just have to guage your performance on your own.
If you have combat feedback, you have indirect DPS meters.
If you consider them indirect DPS meters then you already have what you want.
Helping other players learn encounter strategy, and fine tuning their play style for high end content is an important part of eliminating participation trophy. Growing together is a good thing, and that include failing together as a means to drive for success together.
Sorry about the spam as I read and reread your reply, more thought are coming to my mind!
How can we help each other and learn, if the game is obfuscate information from us? We need feedback from the game and if we have feedback, we can use that information for good and bad.
Yeah this is my question. There’s literally no way to tell who’s struggling without objective detailed feedback, in this case you need pretty immediate feedback to catch such a player while you’re in the dungeon. They could appear to be doing a full rotation, could be doing mechanics, but if they’re actually in beefy tank gear and they’re doing 10% of the average dps, how in the world is anyone supposed to realize this to help them?
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xXBelocXxMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
To echo Steven for a moment this was done way before meters in MMOs.. EQ, Rift, LOTRO, Vanilla WoW etc. All of these games had a very active raiding scene and relied upon observation and education to improve ones self. I see what Intrepid is trying to be make and am looking forward to it.
Also AoC is not the only "hyped" game that is not allowing meters.. Pantheon is another that will not be allowing meters. What we are seeing is a tiring of how MMOs have, and I will use the world evolve though in some cases I should said "de-evolved", in the past 15 years and a resurgence to want to being back what truly made MMOs explode as they did.
To quote a Brad McQuaid (RIP in peace my friend) "I think the big ambition was to make a game we could be proud of, that we would enjoy playing, and where hopefully there were enough other people out there that would feel the same way." MMOs were built to be inclusive and bring people together. Not to exclude.
Hello! The toxicity I am referring to for the meters does not contradict the participation trophy philosophy for the following reasons;
IMO when you choose to exclude someone due to their performance or build (which happens often, not always) you are choosing the easiest path to success. This path is more easily available to groups that parse combat data through dps meters.
The desire to obfuscate (or make less prevalent by not offering this feature) so that groups are encouraged to grow together and help one another become better by more old school/organic methods of trial and error, efforts in watching other people during the raid, by failing repeatedly until success is possible. Now, could people use meters to aid in this task? Yes, but in my experience it isn’t used in this way..more often it is an exclusionary tool designed to separate players.
So to conclude,
My stance on participation trophies is that things should be hard, people should fail, the bitter taste of defeat is what makes success that much more rewarding. Helping other players learn encounter strategy, and fine tuning their play style for high end content is an important part of eliminating participation trophy. Growing together is a good thing, and that includes failing together as a means to drive for success together.
My stance on dps meters, these help automate the encounter, provide an easier way to complete content, creates less failures by eliminating the less experienced or less optimized players, defeat becomes less bitter tasting because it is experienced less often, and the reward is now glancing at a chart and eliminating the lesser players.
I’ve given my opinion and decision on the meters discussion and have read the opposing and supporting arguments. Hope those who disagree can understand the decision. If not, that’s ok too! ❤️
How about allowing players to monitor their own dps, and their own dps only? This way players can share their results with their friends and guild members for comparison and research, while at the same time not being able to exclude other players.
Hello! The toxicity I am referring to for the meters does not contradict the participation trophy philosophy for the following reasons;
IMO when you choose to exclude someone due to their performance or build (which happens often, not always) you are choosing the easiest path to success. This path is more easily available to groups that parse combat data through dps meters.
The desire to obfuscate (or make less prevalent by not offering this feature) so that groups are encouraged to grow together and help one another become better by more old school/organic methods of trial and error, efforts in watching other people during the raid, by failing repeatedly until success is possible. Now, could people use meters to aid in this task? Yes, but in my experience it isn’t used in this way..more often it is an exclusionary tool designed to separate players.
So to conclude,
My stance on participation trophies is that things should be hard, people should fail, the bitter taste of defeat is what makes success that much more rewarding. Helping other players learn encounter strategy, and fine tuning their play style for high end content is an important part of eliminating participation trophy. Growing together is a good thing, and that includes failing together as a means to drive for success together.
My stance on dps meters, these help automate the encounter, provide an easier way to complete content, creates less failures by eliminating the less experienced or less optimized players, defeat becomes less bitter tasting because it is experienced less often, and the reward is now glancing at a chart and eliminating the lesser players.
I’ve given my opinion and decision on the meters discussion and have read the opposing and supporting arguments. Hope those who disagree can understand the decision. If not, that’s ok too! ❤️
How about allowing players to monitor their own dps, and their own dps only? This way players can share their results with their friends and guild members for comparison and research, while at the same time not being able to exclude other players.
Steven said you have combat log on your chat window for individual players. What I'm assuming is that you won't see "Player X did Y damage to you, using H ability".
The truth is, it doesn't matter how many times the Creative Director clarifies, exemplifies and explains how the game will work in terms of DPS measurement, the ask for that tool that IS has been vehemently against will never cease to exist. It's like that in any MMO to existence and will ever be. It's better to stop hitting a dead horse and take discussions to another path as this feels like an endless loop at this point. Just look at how many threads converge to the same subject despite Steven speaking about it multiple times.
If you agree with Steven and is against this tool I suggest you no longer feed the discussion. It eventually starts being pointless.
"Magic is not a tool, little one. It is a river that unites us in its current."
If we don't objected then IS will only hear the people who complain about a lack of a DPS Meter, then IS may assume no-one is against a DPS Meter and thus buckle on the DPS Meter. It is both prudent and better to support Steven in a vocal manner.
Originally like the idea of DPS meters. They work very well for the guild I am in now. We have a system where we reward the top players based on DPS done, healing done, lack of deaths and attendance but I have seen the darker sides of DPS meters.
Also recently I started theorycrafting without the use of meters. We picked our best toons and duked it out. We tested a wide variety of different set ups and weapon combinations. I actually really enjoyed this a lot.
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.
How about allowing players to monitor their own dps, and their own dps only? This way players can share their results with their friends and guild members for comparison and research, while at the same time not being able to exclude other players.
Steven said you have combat log on your chat window for individual players. What I'm assuming is that you won't see "Player X did Y damage to you, using H ability".[/quote]
in PvE a combat log will show you the damage of each ability you use, but won't show you the total damage on a certain target or your DPS. atleast that's my experience with combat logs from GW2.
Hello! The toxicity I am referring to for the meters does not contradict the participation trophy philosophy for the following reasons;
IMO when you choose to exclude someone due to their performance or build (which happens often, not always) you are choosing the easiest path to success. This path is more easily available to groups that parse combat data through dps meters.
The desire to obfuscate (or make less prevalent by not offering this feature) so that groups are encouraged to grow together and help one another become better by more old school/organic methods of trial and error, efforts in watching other people during the raid, by failing repeatedly until success is possible. Now, could people use meters to aid in this task? Yes, but in my experience it isn’t used in this way..more often it is an exclusionary tool designed to separate players.
So to conclude,
My stance on participation trophies is that things should be hard, people should fail, the bitter taste of defeat is what makes success that much more rewarding. Helping other players learn encounter strategy, and fine tuning their play style for high end content is an important part of eliminating participation trophy. Growing together is a good thing, and that includes failing together as a means to drive for success together.
My stance on dps meters, these help automate the encounter, provide an easier way to complete content, creates less failures by eliminating the less experienced or less optimized players, defeat becomes less bitter tasting because it is experienced less often, and the reward is now glancing at a chart and eliminating the lesser players.
I’ve given my opinion and decision on the meters discussion and have read the opposing and supporting arguments. Hope those who disagree can understand the decision. If not, that’s ok too! ❤️
My brother and I spent a decade playing EQ2, and in that game, the notion of excluding someone for poor performance simply didn't exist. In 10 years of top end raiding, we booted one player from the guild - and that was for something that we didn't need a combat tracker to tell us about.
I then moved on to other games, while my brother went to WoW. In WoW, the kind of thing you talk about here is commonplace, and I can understand and even respect any attempt to prevent it.
However, as I have argued in the past, the issue in WoW was not combat trackers. The issue there was that they could boot someone mid-dungeon, and know that a replacement would be ported in.
If you take that same situation - group mid-dungeon, one player underperforming - and you remove the combat tracker, people are still likely to realize which player is underperforming. Players in this situation will always take the easy way out, which in the case of WoW was to just replaec that player.
In EQ2, that wasn't an option. The easiest way out was to try to help the player in order for the group to get through the dungeon. To me, this seems to be how you would want Ashes to be.
The issue I have is that in Ashes, in this same situation, the easiest way out would seem to be to find someone in the group with a family member on, boot the obviously underperforming player, and summon that family member to join the group - leaving the player that was just booted alone in the middle of a group dungeon.
To me, this seems to be the worst of all options, not the best. The only time this change would prevent anything is if a person is only slightly underperforming - a situation no one would exclude anyone else from unless there was a readily available replacement that was known to be better.
Long before the advent of DPS meters, players were completing content through creative strategies and collective learning/observations. This type of content progression is the desired means of success in Ashes. It is harder, yes.
Fact; MMORPG raid content pre-combat trackers was significantly easier than MMORPG raid content post-combat trackers.
Early EQ raids - pre combat trackers - were as much about how many hundreds of players you could throw at an encounter, rather than being about how good those players were at working together.
There are no examples of raids designed without combat trackers where the appropriate strategy is not to simply throw more players at it.
I really hope this isn't a case of wanting to go back to "the good ole' days" here, since those days never actually existed, as these encounters were not actually enjoyable affairs for anyone involved. All they were was a thing players did because that is what the game at the time suggested the best thing to do was, and MMO players didn't yet realize they could stand up and ask the developers to put content in that was actually enjoyable in and of itself.
I guess this now means my biggets fear in Ashes is that the only raid content will be non-instanced encounters where the most logical thing to do is to simply throw more players at it, rather than trying to get better at the game in general.
Sounds like Archeages "raid" content, which was so boring I spent my time in that game growning trees instead.
Edit; I just hope you are looking at decisions others have made in the industry you now find yourself, looking at the situation they were in, why they made teh decisions they made, and the results of those decisions. If not, you stand to make all those mistakes over again - which would be a shame for all involved.
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xXBelocXxMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Long before the advent of DPS meters, players were completing content through creative strategies and collective learning/observations. This type of content progression is the desired means of success in Ashes. It is harder, yes.
Fact; MMORPG raid content pre-combat trackers was significantly easier than MMORPG raid content post-combat trackers.
Early EQ raids - pre combat trackers - were as much about how many hundreds of players you could throw at an encounter, rather than being about how good those players were at working together.
There are no examples of raids designed without combat trackers where the appropriate strategy is not to simply throw more players at it.
I really hope this isn't a case of wanting to go back to "the good ole' days" here, since those days never actually existed, as these encounters were not actually enjoyable affairs for anyone involved. All they were was a thing players did because that is what the game at the time suggested the best thing to do was, and MMO players didn't yet realize they could stand up and ask the developers to put content in that was actually enjoyable in and of itself.
I guess this now means my biggets fear in Ashes is that the only raid content will be non-instanced encounters where the most logical thing to do is to simply throw more players at it, rather than trying to get better at the game in general.
Sounds like Archeages "raid" content, which was so boring I spent my time in that game growning trees instead.
Edit; I just hope you are looking at decisions others have made in the industry you now find yourself, looking at the situation they were in, why they made teh decisions they made, and the results of those decisions. If not, you stand to make all those mistakes over again - which would be a shame for all involved.
The older games were very "zergy". These were the early days so they didn't have the benefit of years and years of multiplayer game development experience to draw on. So the concept of complex mechanics had not been "considered" at that point and even if it was, they were limited by the game engines at the time plus they never expected or had no real idea of what a "playerbase" would do. For a good example of this watch this interview with Lord British and how the players destroyed this complex ecology of Ultima Online overnight.
This is now 2020. Better game engines, better understanding of the mindset of a player, better understanding of complex mechanics using those engines, etc. With the "meters" and "addons" you can get in todays "modern" games, you are taking the challenge out of it. I remember in Rift we had macros and addons that would tell you when to run, when to jump, what skill to use, when to stop DPS, etc etc.. We did nothing more than circumvent those mechanics with addons making it easier for us as players.. I remember tanking in Hammerknell in Rift while eating a pastrami sandwich at the same time at one point.
I for one am hoping that AoC brings back challenging dungeons and PvE and based on what I am hearing Steven say with not allowing meters and I assume along with this are addons, and mix this with the experience of now understanding the mind of a MMO player and complex mechanics, I do believe it will.
Comments
Sorry about the spam as I read and reread your reply, more thought are coming to my mind!
How can we help each other and learn, if the game is obfuscate information from us? We need feedback from the game and if we have feedback, we can use that information for good and bad.
Wrong on the first point, EQ1 had detailed combat logs. You can parse them using 3rd tools. You knew exactly what the other person was doing.
Yes we have more elitism now than before, but this has nothing to do with DPS meters etc. Its separate topic. ESO, GW2 and STRO does not have DPS meters yet elitism is big thing in those games.
1. It will not happen as often though. Also why give those players another tool to exclude players?
2. You do have combat feedback. You will see your damage when you hit a mob and you have combat logs. You just wont have a meter than distills everyone you did down to a DPS number. You'll have to guage for yourself how to improve and now have your computer do it for you.
3. Same as above really. Figure it out on your own. You have combat logs and will just have to guage your performance on your own.
Combat logs I think we're said to be available in AoC unless I misread. Which is why I specifically mentioned DPS meters, not combat logging.
And true, DPS meters weren't the sole cause of elitism. However I strongly agree with Steven that DPS meters are not a necessity for end game, and do contribute to toxicity.
DPS meters can contribute to toxicity. I don't think anyone disputes that. The issue is how much toxicity they contribute and I think not much compared to PvP and related systems in the game.
If you are really worried about toxicity, then PvP game is the wrong type of game to play.
If you have combat feedback, you have indirect DPS meters.
Toxicity is always going to be a thing. It doesn't mean we shouldn't combat it or minimize it. And to be honest i think I'll be fine with PvP with the current design of the corruption system. We are taking about DPS meters and raiding anyway, not pvp
if the biggest argument against DPS meters is toxicity, then it does not fly in a PvP game since the amount of bad player behavior PvP bring to the game will be huge compared to the bad behavior DPS meters will bring. That's all I am saying .
Also DPS matter in PvP as well.
Np!
I think this tends to be a standard misconception that acts in essentially this manner.
Supposition; Eliminating DPS meters will not stop all exclusionary activities related to performance data gathering.
Therefore; We should not try to stop any exclusionary activities related to performance data gathering
I think it's important to remember, my decision is not intended to stop all toxicity relating to meters. We will be providing combat data for individual players in their chat window, that players can filter and analyze for themselves. The goal is to mitigate and make the toxic practice less prevalent through the ease that DPS meters provide. Also to place actionable enforcement for players who attempt to circumvent the decision by use of 3rd party programs, for which we will be monitoring.
Long before the advent of DPS meters, players were completing content through creative strategies and collective learning/observations. This type of content progression is the desired means of success in Ashes. It is harder, yes.
They wont
The corruption system is designed to work against bad PvP behavior.
"We will be providing combat data for individual players in their chat window, that players can filter and analyze for themselves."
This pretty much clears everything up.
The losing group will know they did less dps because the received less loot. Trials and error friend.
Its not like other games haven't had combat logs. The problem is certain people want more than Combat Logs, which is why we go in circles. Some say 'It has combat logs so we can easily create third party applications from these logs'. I don't imagine we won't continue to go around in circles despite the clear attempts to stop the cyclic behaviours.
Edit: Sometimes we can help others, and, sometimes others don't want to be helped (Except by a DPS Meter).
Once again thank you for your reply. I should be mad at your reply but I am pleasantly happy due to the way you answered
Whats wrong in excluding other players based on performance? I am not saying I am such a player, but I am curious why you think its wrong?
You say we will get combat data in the chat window. Is this only for the player in question or can we see other players data in our chat? such as raid or party members?
Thanks
It’s just like how people are worried that we can’t eliminate all cheaters, gold farmers, etc. So why bother? You bother because if you can stop most of them, or at least a significant proportion, then it’s worth doing.
If you consider them indirect DPS meters then you already have what you want.
Yeah this is my question. There’s literally no way to tell who’s struggling without objective detailed feedback, in this case you need pretty immediate feedback to catch such a player while you’re in the dungeon. They could appear to be doing a full rotation, could be doing mechanics, but if they’re actually in beefy tank gear and they’re doing 10% of the average dps, how in the world is anyone supposed to realize this to help them?
Also AoC is not the only "hyped" game that is not allowing meters.. Pantheon is another that will not be allowing meters. What we are seeing is a tiring of how MMOs have, and I will use the world evolve though in some cases I should said "de-evolved", in the past 15 years and a resurgence to want to being back what truly made MMOs explode as they did.
To quote a Brad McQuaid (RIP in peace my friend) "I think the big ambition was to make a game we could be proud of, that we would enjoy playing, and where hopefully there were enough other people out there that would feel the same way." MMOs were built to be inclusive and bring people together. Not to exclude.
How about allowing players to monitor their own dps, and their own dps only? This way players can share their results with their friends and guild members for comparison and research, while at the same time not being able to exclude other players.
Steven said you have combat log on your chat window for individual players. What I'm assuming is that you won't see "Player X did Y damage to you, using H ability".
If you agree with Steven and is against this tool I suggest you no longer feed the discussion. It eventually starts being pointless.
I heard a bird ♫
Also recently I started theorycrafting without the use of meters. We picked our best toons and duked it out. We tested a wide variety of different set ups and weapon combinations. I actually really enjoyed this a lot.
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.
Steven said you have combat log on your chat window for individual players. What I'm assuming is that you won't see "Player X did Y damage to you, using H ability".[/quote]
in PvE a combat log will show you the damage of each ability you use, but won't show you the total damage on a certain target or your DPS. atleast that's my experience with combat logs from GW2.
My brother and I spent a decade playing EQ2, and in that game, the notion of excluding someone for poor performance simply didn't exist. In 10 years of top end raiding, we booted one player from the guild - and that was for something that we didn't need a combat tracker to tell us about.
I then moved on to other games, while my brother went to WoW. In WoW, the kind of thing you talk about here is commonplace, and I can understand and even respect any attempt to prevent it.
However, as I have argued in the past, the issue in WoW was not combat trackers. The issue there was that they could boot someone mid-dungeon, and know that a replacement would be ported in.
If you take that same situation - group mid-dungeon, one player underperforming - and you remove the combat tracker, people are still likely to realize which player is underperforming. Players in this situation will always take the easy way out, which in the case of WoW was to just replaec that player.
In EQ2, that wasn't an option. The easiest way out was to try to help the player in order for the group to get through the dungeon. To me, this seems to be how you would want Ashes to be.
The issue I have is that in Ashes, in this same situation, the easiest way out would seem to be to find someone in the group with a family member on, boot the obviously underperforming player, and summon that family member to join the group - leaving the player that was just booted alone in the middle of a group dungeon.
To me, this seems to be the worst of all options, not the best. The only time this change would prevent anything is if a person is only slightly underperforming - a situation no one would exclude anyone else from unless there was a readily available replacement that was known to be better.
Early EQ raids - pre combat trackers - were as much about how many hundreds of players you could throw at an encounter, rather than being about how good those players were at working together.
There are no examples of raids designed without combat trackers where the appropriate strategy is not to simply throw more players at it.
I really hope this isn't a case of wanting to go back to "the good ole' days" here, since those days never actually existed, as these encounters were not actually enjoyable affairs for anyone involved. All they were was a thing players did because that is what the game at the time suggested the best thing to do was, and MMO players didn't yet realize they could stand up and ask the developers to put content in that was actually enjoyable in and of itself.
I guess this now means my biggets fear in Ashes is that the only raid content will be non-instanced encounters where the most logical thing to do is to simply throw more players at it, rather than trying to get better at the game in general.
Sounds like Archeages "raid" content, which was so boring I spent my time in that game growning trees instead.
Edit; I just hope you are looking at decisions others have made in the industry you now find yourself, looking at the situation they were in, why they made teh decisions they made, and the results of those decisions. If not, you stand to make all those mistakes over again - which would be a shame for all involved.
The older games were very "zergy". These were the early days so they didn't have the benefit of years and years of multiplayer game development experience to draw on. So the concept of complex mechanics had not been "considered" at that point and even if it was, they were limited by the game engines at the time plus they never expected or had no real idea of what a "playerbase" would do. For a good example of this watch this interview with Lord British and how the players destroyed this complex ecology of Ultima Online overnight.
https://massivelyop.com/2018/01/06/richard-garriott-talks-about-how-players-destroyed-ultima-onlines-ecology/
This is now 2020. Better game engines, better understanding of the mindset of a player, better understanding of complex mechanics using those engines, etc. With the "meters" and "addons" you can get in todays "modern" games, you are taking the challenge out of it. I remember in Rift we had macros and addons that would tell you when to run, when to jump, what skill to use, when to stop DPS, etc etc.. We did nothing more than circumvent those mechanics with addons making it easier for us as players.. I remember tanking in Hammerknell in Rift while eating a pastrami sandwich at the same time at one point.
I for one am hoping that AoC brings back challenging dungeons and PvE and based on what I am hearing Steven say with not allowing meters and I assume along with this are addons, and mix this with the experience of now understanding the mind of a MMO player and complex mechanics, I do believe it will.