Like imagine trying to call someone else toxic, they reply and you take their words and remold the meaning so you can continue to be toxic towards them. That is you right now.
The comment of "If everywhere you go you see X, the common denominator with all of those situations is that you are there" is a general saying. It isnt' from me, not is it to you.
It applies to you, however.
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Correct me if I am wrong here - but you claim to have seen a good amount of toxicity in groups in relation to combat trackers, is this not correct?
I haven't. I have hardly ever seen any toxicity in an MMO outside of open chat channels (which I would class as banter more than toxicity). This is despite me always using a combat tracker - which according to you is a cause of toxicity.
So, you see more toxicity than I do, yet I am the one carrying around the toxicity causing device.
Feel free to work out for yourself why this is. I've already given you the answer above though.
You are so manipulative and toxic it is insane you are honestly a issue. My your logic all the people that say there is toxicity in dps meters you are saying everyone is toxic because they see or experience toxicity from people like that.
Imagine being that disingenuous and saying it is the peoples fault and the people are toxic because of their experience with trackers.
You are so stuck in your own ass, I've said it before and you only confirm it, you literarily don't care about anyone but what you want. Everyone is wrong to you and only you are right in your view point. Pinnacle of being ignorant right there.
You are the type to do toxic actions, but do it over the guise of it is your reasoning so you aren't being toxic in your mind.
Granted it makes sense, since actions you have been doing manipulating and taking quotes out of context SINCE the pve thread that i had called you out on and explained how it was out of context. You got some serious issues.
You are the type to do toxic actions, but do it over the guise of it is your reasoning so you aren't being toxic in your mind.
So, you didnt get it, but I'll have another go.
What you have unwittingly been a party to over the last several pages is a demonstration.
Between you and I, we have demonstrated the two (and only two) sources of toxicity. These two sources are trolling (me), and reacting to the behavior of others (you).
I've given people literally years to attempt to come up with any other actual source of toxicity other than these two, and there literally aren't any.
Try as you might, you cant deny that you have been somewhat toxic over the last few pages. You can claim that it was just in response to other posters - but that is the point. Your toxic behavior has been a result of the behavior of others that you didnt like - as I have been saying is the cause of most toxicity in MMO's (and out of them, honestly).
If we were in an MMO, and the behavior you didnt like that I was displaying was that I wasnt as fast as you would like on the content, then I could point to tour toxicity and claim it is because of trackers (according to you).
The thing is, as you have so perfectly demonstrated, the toxicity you are displaying now is purely a result of other people's behavior. The same can be said of the group leader that is toxic towards someone in their group that is slowing said group down - a tracker isnt the cause of their toxicity, the behavior of that group member is the cause of their toxicity.
But anyway, thanks for participating in my experiment to show how easy it is to get a toxic reaction out of others.
As an aside, here is a link to ACT. Feel free to sit there and wait for some toxicity to come along (if trackers are the source of toxicity, surely some will come along).
Unless, of course, you agree that the source of toxicity is always going to be either someone trolling (like I was to you), or someone upset at the behavior of others around them (as you were to me).
Like imagine trying to call someone else toxic, they reply and you take their words and remold the meaning so you can continue to be toxic towards them. That is you right now.
The comment of "If everywhere you go you see X, the common denominator with all of those situations is that you are there" is a general saying. It isnt' from me, not is it to you.
It applies to you, however.
---
Correct me if I am wrong here - but you claim to have seen a good amount of toxicity in groups in relation to combat trackers, is this not correct?
I haven't. I have hardly ever seen any toxicity in an MMO outside of open chat channels (which I would class as banter more than toxicity). This is despite me always using a combat tracker - which according to you is a cause of toxicity.
So, you see more toxicity than I do, yet I am the one carrying around the toxicity causing device.
Feel free to work out for yourself why this is. I've already given you the answer above though.
You are so manipulative and toxic it is insane you are honestly a issue. My your logic all the people that say there is toxicity in dps meters you are saying everyone is toxic because they see or experience toxicity from people like that.
Imagine being that disingenuous and saying it is the peoples fault and the people are toxic because of their experience with trackers.
You are so stuck in your own ass, I've said it before and you only confirm it, you literarily don't care about anyone but what you want. Everyone is wrong to you and only you are right in your view point. Pinnacle of being ignorant right there.
You are the type to do toxic actions, but do it over the guise of it is your reasoning so you aren't being toxic in your mind.
Granted it makes sense, since actions you have been doing manipulating and taking quotes out of context SINCE the pve thread that i had called you out on and explained how it was out of context. You got some serious issues.
I wondered when I seen this thread back up top, with its 2.4 thousand comments, what people could possibly still be discussing on the topic.
Now I understand. They aren't, it's devolved into people just bitching each other out
Guys just let this thread die, for your own sanity. I think the entire worlds knowledge of DPS meters and everyones opinions about it is already contained here.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Nah.. the hole has been dug so deep now, there is no return!
You are the type to do toxic actions, but do it over the guise of it is your reasoning so you aren't being toxic in your mind.
So, you didnt get it, but I'll have another go.
What you have unwittingly been a party to over the last several pages is a demonstration.
Between you and I, we have demonstrated the two (and only two) sources of toxicity. These two sources are trolling (me), and reacting to the behavior of others (you).
I've given people literally years to attempt to come up with any other actual source of toxicity other than these two, and there literally aren't any.
Try as you might, you cant deny that you have been somewhat toxic over the last few pages. You can claim that it was just in response to other posters - but that is the point. Your toxic behavior has been a result of the behavior of others that you didnt like - as I have been saying is the cause of most toxicity in MMO's (and out of them, honestly).
If we were in an MMO, and the behavior you didnt like that I was displaying was that I wasnt as fast as you would like on the content, then I could point to tour toxicity and claim it is because of trackers (according to you).
The thing is, as you have so perfectly demonstrated, the toxicity you are displaying now is purely a result of other people's behavior. The same can be said of the group leader that is toxic towards someone in their group that is slowing said group down - a tracker isnt the cause of their toxicity, the behavior of that group member is the cause of their toxicity.
But anyway, thanks for participating in my experiment to show how easy it is to get a toxic reaction out of others.
As an aside, here is a link to ACT. Feel free to sit there and wait for some toxicity to come along (if trackers are the source of toxicity, surely some will come along).
Unless, of course, you agree that the source of toxicity is always going to be either someone trolling (like I was to you), or someone upset at the behavior of others around them (as you were to me).
You literarily don't get it you keep trying to create reason for what you think in your head that make 0 sense because you are the one that feels you need to "win" It is ironic that you think I'm trying to win when really you are reflecting what you think onto others because you can't accept what other people say, you refuse to. It is the reason why your argue for over the last years with the thousands of post.
You being toxic simply spreads more toxicity by trying to demean people that don't agree with your point. How you are now I'm sure is no different then in game but to a lightest extend like demeaning other people that don't do what you want.
It honestly is pathetic you are comparing your dislike for me and getting back the same energy and thinking this proves anything about being toxic with trackers. Thee is nothing to read into it, it simply is just disrespect and has nothing to do with the element of what trackers are actually doing. This is the cause of disagreement and you having particular issues when you don't get your way so you try to be as loud as possible.
So don't compare the issues with trackers with people disagrees, there is no experiment here just you having issues unable to accept anyone else's view that isn't yours. Else you simply would let people talk and see what the community wants, granted the community has shown to not want trackers.
You are literarily the person that says you don't care about what the TOS will say, your mentality is toxic.
It's the same people making pro-DPS meter arguments because the people who agree with them don't have to do any work for the argument in favor of DPSMeters to be made well. Aerlana, Azherae, and Noaani you are doing a great job, keep it up.
Tools do not cause toxicity - people cause toxicity.
I mean, sure, I took an unorthodox route to get you here, but we made it!
Dps meters cause toxicity between players. Toxicity is not the sole reason to be against DPS meters simply just one of them. People have already explained this to you on the issues with toxicity in terms how they work with dps meters. But as usual over the thousands of pages you don't take anything in, you don't care what people are saying only what you want.
I'm talking about you and your personality spreads toxicity, stop trying the skew my words and misdirect with your classic manipulation. Yes if your goal is to be a asshole and show disrespect to people you are going to be viewed as toxic.
OK, so, if you are in a group full of players that have no tracker, you want to get around the content quickly, but your tank and healer are determined to stop and look at every decoration they comes across in every room (perhaps creating a map). This means they is taking 4 or 5 times longer than they should to move through the content.
Do you tell them to hurry up?
Me though, I am running content with a group of people, and we are all using trackers, because we all enjoy using them.
According to you, my group should be the one that sees the toxicity, not yours.
Problem is, in my group, we are all on the same page. We all want to get through the content quickly and then move on to the next thing.
Due to us all being on the same page, there is no toxicity to be had.
Your group though, even if you do not tell your tank to hurry up, someone else will. There will be toxicity in that group, even though you have no trackers. This is because you are not all on the same page, some of you want to go fast, some of you want to go slow.
As I have said many times to you, trackers do not - indeed can not - cause toxicity. Toxicity can only come from the behavior of others, or from someone deciding to troll.
If you think toxicity comes from trackers, all that says to me is that you find yourself in situations where you are with people running trackers, but you have a different mindset to them, and thus toxicity is the result.
Fact is, if toxicity comes from trackers, then it would be present every time trackers are present. Since it is not, the statement is simply not true - despite your best efforts to repeat your own factual inaccuracies.
Dps meters cause toxicity between players. Toxicity is not the sole reason to be against DPS meters simply just one of them. People have already explained this to you on the issues with toxicity in terms how they work with dps meters. But as usual over the thousands of pages you don't take anything in, you don't care what people are saying only what you want.
I'm talking about you and your personality spreads toxicity, stop trying the skew my words and misdirect with your classic manipulation. Yes if your goal is to be a asshole and show disrespect to people you are going to be viewed as toxic.
hmm, always you know everything better and do better ..;)
And if you don't have chance to defend yourself, you write about manipulation ..
I did not have any unpleasant experiences with myself or others at the DPS meters, certainly not on the level of toxicity,
To be clear, if someone is toxic it will be with or without an addon
The thread has become hilarious. Of course there is toxicity with meters. There is toxicity everywhere in online games. The younger generations are used to screaming on rust when they are raided and act like cry babies when they are killed. There will be toxicity with or without meters. Seems rather pointless to add extra time to the toxicity due to weakened speed runs with no trackers.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited September 2022
So much prefer to have pvp, pve, and raids that are orientated as visual, challenging and interactive experiences such that players must be fully immersed, watching and really driven to see what is happening on the screen and in peak moments must be highly aware rather than the idea of must refer to meters, switching between watching a DPS tachometer in the bottom corner of the screen and where the action is on the screen.
It's the same people making pro-DPS meter arguments because the people who agree with them don't have to do any work for the argument in favor of DPSMeters to be made well. Aerlana, Azherae, and Noaani you are doing a great job, keep it up.
The thread has become hilarious. Of course there is toxicity with meters. There is toxicity everywhere in online games.
There is toxicity in humanity. due to pride mainly. In my opinion, toxicity comes mainly when you consider that the problem is not and CANNOT be you but always the others. When you consider your view is THE good one.
it is often a problem of mentality. And making all other players just "random unkown dude" is the first source of toxicity.
Current MMORPG are about fast farming session (short dungeons + DF + automatic teleport allowing you to farm dailies while waiting) => if a dumb slow ass make the others lose their time some people get angry... But if it is their friend, then the case is different.
Nooani said that he didnt see toxicity because simply he was not where the toxicity was.
But i could say from my "casual" experience (after the high end) that some simply way to manage a guild avoid it a lot. The first being, as we said : be sure the whole guild is in the same mindset. I ALWAYS pushed the members (including a now really good friend) to leave us for a bigger guild when i saw that our progress was not what they expected. I didnt try to sell them a "but we are all a guild, we have to go together" no... they wanted to go faster, while most guild wouldn't appreciate to be pushed too much, it was better for them to find another guild. In the end ? they did high end, we remained friend, and they oftened came back with us with a reroll when they could. While if i tried to have all in a same block, it would just make each camp hate each other, and both being ok to hate me...
How the game is designed will have far more impact than tracker.
People now don't even need to fill their friendlist. their guild, their friend from their previous guild. oh, and sometime "friends of friends" . . . Back in early wow, we added each other during leveling at first : we had similar log in time, we progressed in this slow leveling at a similar pace, so we ended to group for the various dungeons we did. And because it was nice runs (smooth or not, but at least fun) we added each other, to make even more easy to do more dungeons together. And it was also helpfull to do quests to some "elite" areas spread all along leveling.
Now ? People rush those small leveling session which has not even a small part of dangerous open world area, dungeons are optionnal to end the region questline, and when you want to do it? tag it, begin other quest line. Play play play, never socialise, just play the game, enjoy playing, the system will find you some random unkown dude you will never see again, this way, you won't lose any second, you will play and only play.
We all hated (me first) those "Looking for members, range DPS, for stratholm crusade" because we had to wait, it was frustrating, because even when there was a whisp, you did inspect him and he has a really poor stuff, probably didnt even know what is it... and this is your 10th run, you are not in mood to mentor a newbie... shit have to wait another call, "sorry guy, but with this stuff, it will be too harsh, good luck in your adventure" ...Even rejecting candidate needed some short social time. (Or it was a good stuff, but the reknown of this dude was enough to make you think twice before inviting him...)
But while frustrating, it also makes the friend list far more valuable. a second source of people (other being guild) you know well, that could help to fill the party. Each random you dungeon with could become one of it, because you need to fill it, to avoid-reduce all those lost time of /shout in stormwind... Each player you played with was a potential "friend" to contact later and do other dungeons... So you was sure he could consider you also this way (to accept when you invite him again) He was not [random name from random server]...
And because i see Mag7spy coming : no the tracker won't negatively impact the probability i add him as friend.
When i have some friend in a party, and have to add one or two other pick up, we really EASILY knew if they sucked or not, without tracker, or even threat meter. Because, while it is not so easy to read what 20+ people are doing during a tough fight, 5man party is a situation when you easy see each other doing with your eyes. (and even a 8man party, it is still easy)
So much prefer to have pvp, pve, and raids that are orientated as visual, challenging and interactive experiences such that players must be fully immersed, watching and really driven to see what is happening on the screen and in peak moments must be highly aware rather than the idea of must refer to meters, switching between watching a DPS tachometer in the bottom corner of the screen and where the action is on the screen.
The hardest fight in MMORPG (aside PW/AV in FFXI) are : visual, challenging, AND needs strong DPS
I know NO tough fight in MMORPG that didnt need strong DPS, strong mana management from healers, and still tough mechanics to deal with...
the "watching DPS" you say... is only true after the fight, when we are running as ghost to take back our body, and/or running back to where we wiped to do another pull. It is out of fight. Because as you said, people during fights are focused on what is happening in the fight, their rotation.
If you had time to watch your tracker DURING a fight, it was an easy fight.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited September 2022
Toxicity has been an easy focus in this discussion.
Have not seen a single refute nor workaround on offer to deal with the fact should a combat tracker be introduced
players will invariably consume content faster
greater associated pressure on IS to develop more content, frequently and more complex
IS`s development overhead overall being more costly and/or their net margin reduced.
First, i never understood why customers should take in consideration if such decision makes the company get 5%, 10% or 50% benefits... this is IS problem and only their problem.This is their work to do the marketing, to work on player retention, and other thing.
I am a player, so a customer, not an investor.
"But if they are not enough profitable, the game will shut down" i know yes... and ? It would prove that part of their decision was not efficient in point of vue of business. No more no less.
Now, players will consume content slightly faster, yes, but again i don't see problem.
There will be needed a more frequent update ? Still to be proven.
I am not a great professional but i simply look what other good competitor are currently doing...
For PvE the two top MMORPG are also reknown for their PvE, and have big use of tracker : perfect !
1) we don't know the pace of new high end or even mid end PvE content post release IS want to do. We know wow/FFXIV going 6/8 month for a raid tier content, but those are 5 bosses (4 on raid, 1 on ultimate, ... and in fact there are 3 raid tier but 2 ultimate per expansion) and around 10 bosses for wow. On this last, out of those bosses often 3-4 only are really strong, (with the last being over the top)
A raid system with 2-3 minor bosses on the way (being also the "midtier PvE content") and one big after every 6 month doesnt feel a lot of work...
And this time is not only the time needed for those game to develop content... But also to allow player to enjoy the content... Because while some clear it in the first month and then farm it, getting bored and asking for the next one, other people seeing the ptr opening try to push their progress faster to do as much as they can before the next raid release.
So in your "pressure to have new content faster" you need to define exactly who do the pressure, and then judge if "only them" is those to listen, or have to extend to more?
2) Faster with tracker than without : true, but in AoC, with similar difficulty than WoW/FFXIV, the global PvE progress will be slower.
On the two old MMORPG, guilds can focus on PvE when they want. ignore anything else. . . Impossible on AoC... because it would make your city or metropole weaker, and get downgraded, or get sieged and destroyed. Guilds wont be able to do those 7 days (for top world) or 1 month where they focus only on the new raid... The gametime can't be extended with no limit, so more time you spend on anything that is not the raid will be less time training on the boss, on finding its strategy, training to apply it and finally kill it... and THEN finally farm it !
Other ... we know dungeons and raid will be influenced by nodes growth... We can totally expect raid to not be avaible if no metropol/city (T6/T5 node) to extend their area to them. ... So if recently a siege destroy a metropol, the raid(s) in its area could be temporary disabled => slower progress
3) What some players request are not a thing they have to receive...
People will request some kind of QoL after AoC release, those QoL i think everyone currently posting on those forum agree to be a big "nope" like Duty finder for example (but not only)... So could go for new PvE content :
As i said in the begning of the post, it is IS work and not our work to do profit from this game. The problem is profit ? fine but profit doesnt need new high end PvE content too often. What you need for your game is ... or people coming back spending ton in CS, leaving, rince and repeat (... all F2P but also FFXIV... and wow even if its cash shop grow slower than others) or "player rentention". Player retention needs you to have people enjoying the game, and don't get bored, on WoW, PvE boys do their weekly kill, and here we are, sure... after some months it gets boring, but what if, due to how the game works, with all those diplomatic shits, and maybe some other things needed to be able to fight boss, this already ask a lot of gametime for the guild to be able to do the boss, so most guilds manage to fight it far less than once a week ? Yes, the boss seems fresh and new far longer than in WoW/FFXIV.
So... you point a problem, and i say "we don't even know if the game will makes it a problem due to many unknown factors.
If we look at wow history. the speed of clean of contents didnt follow only the fact tracker were more and more used... But also the loss of all kind of keys/attunements, the fact that due to being 2 times a year, top end PvE scene began to fit some hollidays and similar thing when the raids were released. (but could fast be wasted with siege defense etc in AoC)
So for AoC ? we speak about an unknown future, with too much unkown factor to clearly identify if there will be a problem or not...
Also, faster with than without... this is considering there is a case with no tracker, and a case with tracker. There will be tracker. The problem is to have a pace of new content enough to avoid people to be bored and leave. this is the only question.
The real question discussed there for now lot of pages... Is mainly "in game tracker, limited to guild perk and to scan guildmate vs third party tracker". I don't see situation there is an activ PvE life with real challenging content without any kind of tracker. If they don't have it in game, people will create it themselves.
Toxicity has been an easy focus in this discussion.
Have not seen a single refute nor workaround on offer to deal with the fact should a combat tracker be introduced
players will invariably consume content faster
greater associated pressure on IS to develop more content, frequently and more complex
IS`s development overhead overall being more costly and/or their net margin reduced.
What would be a solution for above so viable ?
I have been over these in this thread (post page 100), but I'll go over them again.
Keep in mind though, I am only talking about absolute top end content here - 3 or 4 encounters in a cycle out of what should be 30 or so raid encounters.
If these encounters are designed around the paradigm of chaos rather than tight scripting (WoW and FFXIV use tight scripting, most other games use an amount of chaos mixed in with scripting).
If Intrepid go with a chaotic paradigm, encounters take significantly less time to develop, and also take longer to kill.
There us a reason games that rely on heavily scripted content never manage to keep up with players, while games that allow a good amount of chaotic encounters do manage to keep up with players.
This one paradigm shift literally deals with all three of the issues you have outlined above (which I agree are worth consideration).
As an aside, chaotic encounters as a design choice suits Ashes better than heavily, tightly scripted encounters do.
It is worth noting that chaotic encounters designed without taking trackers in to account are fairly basic, and not worth being cared top end. It is only when you assume trackers are being used (which is why we are only talking g about top end) that chaotic encounters match what a heavily scripted encounter can bring in terms of difficulty - but at that point these chaotic encounters do indeed surpass scripted encounters considerably.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
heavily scripted content never manage to keep up with players
chaotic encounters do manage to keep up with players.
chaotic encounters designed without taking trackers in to account are fairly basic, and not worth being cared top end.
Conclusion gained from your posts >
Will consume content faster with tracker
And will need to spend more effort on designing encounters to make challenging for those that use trackers.
no suggested solution / workaround to offset the additional development time/cost to meet the tracking community`s increased development load. Other than perhaps to go to chaotic rather than scripted. But chaotic still needs to be higher grade
In a game of Ashes underlying design, the reason content is cleared (for the first time) faster by those who can build trackers/parsers is that they are having more fun figuring out how to do it their own way. They therefore also try more, and also repeat it more.
The solution is to specialize the content, which is achieved with or without the trackers people build, one's hope as a dev is that the players who build trackers/parsers are having so much fun doing it their respective ways that they do not care as much.
Specialization of content IS more work, yes, but I believe it's a standard investment. Players who don't build trackers would be more likely to lose interest in nonspecialized simplistic content (from the PvE side) as well.
And will need to spend more effort on designing encounters to make challenging for those that use trackers.
This is the part I literally just said isnt the case.
Chaotic based encounters are easier and faster to produce than heavily scripted encounters, work better for top end content, and take longer for players to defeat.
By every metric you are bringing up, they are coming out on top.
The problem is, this encounter type does not work without trackers.
So, essentially, adding trackers and developing the correct encounters for them will take less time and money from Intrepid, for content that lasts longer for players.
In this regard, it really shouldnt even be a discussion.
Intrepid say: we don't want addons/meters/trackers and want to forbid them
Tracker people say: we don't fucking care about that, ya ain't gonna stop us
Non-tracker people say: the tracker people will be using trackers to clear hard content and will require us to use them too if we want to join them (or require us to adhere to what it says), which we consider toxic
To me this sounds same as entitled pvers demanding pve servers or entitled pvpers demanding no corruption servers. The only difference is that Intrepid can completely limit either of those entitled people through mechanics and be up-front about it. And they have, with their "not for everyone" line.
And the problem mainly comes from Intrepid saying they want to have complex bosses w/o going into any kind of detail as to how they want to achieve that, and the tracker people saying that no boss can be difficult enough if it wasn't designed with tacker people in mind.
In other words, after these 141 pages, Intrepid just need to finally explain their boss design and either tell tracker people "you're included in the "everyone" that we talk about" or say "we realize that in order to have properly difficult bosses we'll need to provide particular tools, so tell us which ones those are".
Intrepid say: we don't want addons/meters/trackers and want to forbid them
Tracker people say: we don't fucking care about that, ya ain't gonna stop us
Non-tracker people say: the tracker people will be using trackers to clear hard content and will require us to use them too if we want to join them (or require us to adhere to what it says), which we consider toxic
To me this sounds same as entitled pvers demanding pve servers or entitled pvpers demanding no corruption servers. The only difference is that Intrepid can completely limit either of those entitled people through mechanics and be up-front about it. And they have, with their "not for everyone" line.
And the problem mainly comes from Intrepid saying they want to have complex bosses w/o going into any kind of detail as to how they want to achieve that, and the tracker people saying that no boss can be difficult enough if it wasn't designed with tacker people in mind.
In other words, after these 141 pages, Intrepid just need to finally explain their boss design and either tell tracker people "you're included in the "everyone" that we talk about" or say "we realize that in order to have properly difficult bosses we'll need to provide particular tools, so tell us which ones those are".
I do not intend to use a Tracker for Ashes if the desire of the developers is that we do not use them.
I do not intend to compete with other people that I will expect to be using trackers either, though, especially not in an owPvP game (it does not matter if a given thing is instanced or not).
That you won't play the game if Intrepid doesn't allow trackers cause people like Noaani will definitely use trackers no matter what Intrepid say and you'd have to compete with them then which you don't intend to do?
That you won't play the game if Intrepid doesn't allow trackers cause people like Noaani will definitely use trackers no matter what Intrepid say and you'd have to compete with them then which you don't intend to do?
I'm simply saying that anything that says 'Intrepid won't allow trackers so we don't need to discuss this', leads only to a situation in which everyone who follows the Vision is playing a self-imposed challenge run.
I don't see a reason to take a competitive game seriously in that situation, do you?
EDIT: Why hate on P2W/RMT but not Tracker usage? Oh, wait, y'all don't want Tracker usage, fine. Can you stop it? No, but people can be convinced you can. Yay. At least RMT, you could actually stop.
I don't see a reason to take a competitive game seriously in that situation, do you?
I meaaaaaan, I'm different like that. That's been my permanent state at all times In L2 I went against the basic meta of my class and still won against people who followed it. And I loved fighting uphill because that's just what's interesting to me. Except my interest doesn't influence everyone else in the game, while using trackers does, because as Noaani likes to say "devs will have to adjust for that in future design", which will influence everyone in the game.
And as I see it, if everyone's under the same "challenge" then it is still a competition. A couple's 3-legged race can be won super easily by a single person running normally, but if you forbid those single people from doing so (because those are the rules) - you have yourself a 3-legged competition.
But we've kinda discussed this before. Everyone has their preferences in gaming, which is why this has been going on for 140+ pages. Noaani and everyone else has just been discussing their opinions and preferences back and forth, which is an endless activity.
I don't see a reason to take a competitive game seriously in that situation, do you?
I meaaaaaan, I'm different like that. That's been my permanent state at all times In L2 I went against the basic meta of my class and still won against people who followed it. And I loved fighting uphill because that's just what's interesting to me. Except my interest doesn't influence everyone else in the game, while using trackers does, because as Noaani likes to say "devs will have to adjust for that in future design", which will influence everyone in the game.
And as I see it, if everyone's under the same "challenge" then it is still a competition. A couple's 3-legged race can be won super easily by a single person running normally, but if you forbid those single people from doing so (because those are the rules) - you have yourself a 3-legged competition.
But we've kinda discussed this before. Everyone has their preferences in gaming, which is why this has been going on for 140+ pages. Noaani and everyone else has just been discussing their opinions and preferences back and forth, which is an endless activity.
Ah, this is sorta sad, I feel like if even you believe this, then Mag's brute force 'tactic' actually worked.
I thought it would take a better turn, for example when Dolyem shifted to the understanding that you can't actually even detect these.
Cause that's the core of it, but I guess if you repeat irrelevance enough times, even someone like you blanks out the actual point?
Or is it that you simply ignore the potential for the tracker even if the tracker is absolutely undetectable? I guess you could also 'believe that there is a way to design a game so that a tracker doesn't help' but then I feel like it's worked twice over.
Would you like a video on the current state of AimBots, or is that a waste too?
EDIT: You can just search Arduino Aimbot Valorant. Enjoy.
Or is it that you simply ignore the potential for the tracker even if the tracker is absolutely undetectable? I guess you could also 'believe that there is a way to design a game so that a tracker doesn't help' but then I feel like it's worked twice over.
Oh, I know perfectly well that they're untraceable. I'm past that point. Which is why I said that I need Intrepid to decide what they want to do. If they're fine with losing the tracker people as a part of their target audience - that would be completely fine with me, but you or Noaani would probably find the game utterly boring because bosses won't be designed in a way that would be satisfying for you.
But again, that decision can only come after they reveal what their boss design is exactly. Just like Dygz fell off the game after the open seas update, I'd assume any hardcore tracker users would say that they are no longer interested in the game if Intrepid explicitly state "we're gonna track how people do the content. If a group of people easily clears it, while every other raid struggles - we will keep designing the game for those who're still struggling".
Hell no. No nerfs please. People can struggle but it's the struggle that makes the reward special. Nerfs to content makes everyone think less of the content and rewards are cheapened.
Hell no. No nerfs please. People can struggle but it's the struggle that makes the reward special. Nerfs to content makes everyone think less of the content and rewards are cheapened.
It's not about the nerfs though. It's about a small group of people that use an outside of the game tool that lets them to beat the content much easier than they would've otherwise. So instead of appealing purely to this group of people Intrepid could disregard their opinion and just keep making the content that's still difficult for the 99% of players.
But again though, that would only work if Intrepid drop the "<10% clearable" thing they promised, because otherwise they'd need to appeal to exactly that small group of people who use trackers no matter what Intrepid say just because they don't care about what rules the game has.
Comments
You are so manipulative and toxic it is insane you are honestly a issue. My your logic all the people that say there is toxicity in dps meters you are saying everyone is toxic because they see or experience toxicity from people like that.
Imagine being that disingenuous and saying it is the peoples fault and the people are toxic because of their experience with trackers.
You are so stuck in your own ass, I've said it before and you only confirm it, you literarily don't care about anyone but what you want. Everyone is wrong to you and only you are right in your view point. Pinnacle of being ignorant right there.
You are the type to do toxic actions, but do it over the guise of it is your reasoning so you aren't being toxic in your mind.
Granted it makes sense, since actions you have been doing manipulating and taking quotes out of context SINCE the pve thread that i had called you out on and explained how it was out of context. You got some serious issues.
What you have unwittingly been a party to over the last several pages is a demonstration.
Between you and I, we have demonstrated the two (and only two) sources of toxicity. These two sources are trolling (me), and reacting to the behavior of others (you).
I've given people literally years to attempt to come up with any other actual source of toxicity other than these two, and there literally aren't any.
Try as you might, you cant deny that you have been somewhat toxic over the last few pages. You can claim that it was just in response to other posters - but that is the point. Your toxic behavior has been a result of the behavior of others that you didnt like - as I have been saying is the cause of most toxicity in MMO's (and out of them, honestly).
If we were in an MMO, and the behavior you didnt like that I was displaying was that I wasnt as fast as you would like on the content, then I could point to tour toxicity and claim it is because of trackers (according to you).
The thing is, as you have so perfectly demonstrated, the toxicity you are displaying now is purely a result of other people's behavior. The same can be said of the group leader that is toxic towards someone in their group that is slowing said group down - a tracker isnt the cause of their toxicity, the behavior of that group member is the cause of their toxicity.
But anyway, thanks for participating in my experiment to show how easy it is to get a toxic reaction out of others.
As an aside, here is a link to ACT. Feel free to sit there and wait for some toxicity to come along (if trackers are the source of toxicity, surely some will come along).
Unless, of course, you agree that the source of toxicity is always going to be either someone trolling (like I was to you), or someone upset at the behavior of others around them (as you were to me).
I wondered when I seen this thread back up top, with its 2.4 thousand comments, what people could possibly still be discussing on the topic.
Now I understand. They aren't, it's devolved into people just bitching each other out
Guys just let this thread die, for your own sanity. I think the entire worlds knowledge of DPS meters and everyones opinions about it is already contained here.
You literarily don't get it you keep trying to create reason for what you think in your head that make 0 sense because you are the one that feels you need to "win" It is ironic that you think I'm trying to win when really you are reflecting what you think onto others because you can't accept what other people say, you refuse to. It is the reason why your argue for over the last years with the thousands of post.
You being toxic simply spreads more toxicity by trying to demean people that don't agree with your point. How you are now I'm sure is no different then in game but to a lightest extend like demeaning other people that don't do what you want.
It honestly is pathetic you are comparing your dislike for me and getting back the same energy and thinking this proves anything about being toxic with trackers. Thee is nothing to read into it, it simply is just disrespect and has nothing to do with the element of what trackers are actually doing. This is the cause of disagreement and you having particular issues when you don't get your way so you try to be as loud as possible.
So don't compare the issues with trackers with people disagrees, there is no experiment here just you having issues unable to accept anyone else's view that isn't yours. Else you simply would let people talk and see what the community wants, granted the community has shown to not want trackers.
You are literarily the person that says you don't care about what the TOS will say, your mentality is toxic.
See, now you're getting it.
Tools do not cause toxicity - people cause toxicity.
I mean, sure, I took an unorthodox route to get you here, but we made it!
― Plato
Dps meters cause toxicity between players. Toxicity is not the sole reason to be against DPS meters simply just one of them. People have already explained this to you on the issues with toxicity in terms how they work with dps meters. But as usual over the thousands of pages you don't take anything in, you don't care what people are saying only what you want.
I'm talking about you and your personality spreads toxicity, stop trying the skew my words and misdirect with your classic manipulation. Yes if your goal is to be a asshole and show disrespect to people you are going to be viewed as toxic.
Based on his above reply, it would seem you are correct, and I was not.
Do you tell them to hurry up?
Me though, I am running content with a group of people, and we are all using trackers, because we all enjoy using them.
According to you, my group should be the one that sees the toxicity, not yours.
Problem is, in my group, we are all on the same page. We all want to get through the content quickly and then move on to the next thing.
Due to us all being on the same page, there is no toxicity to be had.
Your group though, even if you do not tell your tank to hurry up, someone else will. There will be toxicity in that group, even though you have no trackers. This is because you are not all on the same page, some of you want to go fast, some of you want to go slow.
As I have said many times to you, trackers do not - indeed can not - cause toxicity. Toxicity can only come from the behavior of others, or from someone deciding to troll.
If you think toxicity comes from trackers, all that says to me is that you find yourself in situations where you are with people running trackers, but you have a different mindset to them, and thus toxicity is the result.
Fact is, if toxicity comes from trackers, then it would be present every time trackers are present. Since it is not, the statement is simply not true - despite your best efforts to repeat your own factual inaccuracies.
hmm, always you know everything better and do better ..;)
And if you don't have chance to defend yourself, you write about manipulation ..
I did not have any unpleasant experiences with myself or others at the DPS meters, certainly not on the level of toxicity,
To be clear, if someone is toxic it will be with or without an addon
Regards
Thank you.
There is toxicity in humanity. due to pride mainly. In my opinion, toxicity comes mainly when you consider that the problem is not and CANNOT be you but always the others. When you consider your view is THE good one.
it is often a problem of mentality. And making all other players just "random unkown dude" is the first source of toxicity.
Current MMORPG are about fast farming session (short dungeons + DF + automatic teleport allowing you to farm dailies while waiting) => if a dumb slow ass make the others lose their time some people get angry... But if it is their friend, then the case is different.
Nooani said that he didnt see toxicity because simply he was not where the toxicity was.
But i could say from my "casual" experience (after the high end) that some simply way to manage a guild avoid it a lot. The first being, as we said : be sure the whole guild is in the same mindset. I ALWAYS pushed the members (including a now really good friend) to leave us for a bigger guild when i saw that our progress was not what they expected. I didnt try to sell them a "but we are all a guild, we have to go together" no... they wanted to go faster, while most guild wouldn't appreciate to be pushed too much, it was better for them to find another guild. In the end ? they did high end, we remained friend, and they oftened came back with us with a reroll when they could. While if i tried to have all in a same block, it would just make each camp hate each other, and both being ok to hate me...
How the game is designed will have far more impact than tracker.
People now don't even need to fill their friendlist. their guild, their friend from their previous guild. oh, and sometime "friends of friends" . . . Back in early wow, we added each other during leveling at first : we had similar log in time, we progressed in this slow leveling at a similar pace, so we ended to group for the various dungeons we did. And because it was nice runs (smooth or not, but at least fun) we added each other, to make even more easy to do more dungeons together. And it was also helpfull to do quests to some "elite" areas spread all along leveling.
Now ? People rush those small leveling session which has not even a small part of dangerous open world area, dungeons are optionnal to end the region questline, and when you want to do it? tag it, begin other quest line. Play play play, never socialise, just play the game, enjoy playing, the system will find you some random unkown dude you will never see again, this way, you won't lose any second, you will play and only play.
We all hated (me first) those "Looking for members, range DPS, for stratholm crusade" because we had to wait, it was frustrating, because even when there was a whisp, you did inspect him and he has a really poor stuff, probably didnt even know what is it... and this is your 10th run, you are not in mood to mentor a newbie... shit have to wait another call, "sorry guy, but with this stuff, it will be too harsh, good luck in your adventure" ...Even rejecting candidate needed some short social time. (Or it was a good stuff, but the reknown of this dude was enough to make you think twice before inviting him...)
But while frustrating, it also makes the friend list far more valuable. a second source of people (other being guild) you know well, that could help to fill the party. Each random you dungeon with could become one of it, because you need to fill it, to avoid-reduce all those lost time of /shout in stormwind... Each player you played with was a potential "friend" to contact later and do other dungeons... So you was sure he could consider you also this way (to accept when you invite him again) He was not [random name from random server]...
And because i see Mag7spy coming : no the tracker won't negatively impact the probability i add him as friend.
When i have some friend in a party, and have to add one or two other pick up, we really EASILY knew if they sucked or not, without tracker, or even threat meter. Because, while it is not so easy to read what 20+ people are doing during a tough fight, 5man party is a situation when you easy see each other doing with your eyes. (and even a 8man party, it is still easy)
The hardest fight in MMORPG (aside PW/AV in FFXI) are : visual, challenging, AND needs strong DPS
I know NO tough fight in MMORPG that didnt need strong DPS, strong mana management from healers, and still tough mechanics to deal with...
the "watching DPS" you say... is only true after the fight, when we are running as ghost to take back our body, and/or running back to where we wiped to do another pull. It is out of fight. Because as you said, people during fights are focused on what is happening in the fight, their rotation.
If you had time to watch your tracker DURING a fight, it was an easy fight.
Have not seen a single refute nor workaround on offer to deal with the fact should a combat tracker be introduced
What would be a solution for above so viable ?
I am a player, so a customer, not an investor.
"But if they are not enough profitable, the game will shut down" i know yes... and ? It would prove that part of their decision was not efficient in point of vue of business. No more no less.
Now, players will consume content slightly faster, yes, but again i don't see problem.
There will be needed a more frequent update ? Still to be proven.
I am not a great professional but i simply look what other good competitor are currently doing...
For PvE the two top MMORPG are also reknown for their PvE, and have big use of tracker : perfect !
1) we don't know the pace of new high end or even mid end PvE content post release IS want to do. We know wow/FFXIV going 6/8 month for a raid tier content, but those are 5 bosses (4 on raid, 1 on ultimate, ... and in fact there are 3 raid tier but 2 ultimate per expansion) and around 10 bosses for wow. On this last, out of those bosses often 3-4 only are really strong, (with the last being over the top)
A raid system with 2-3 minor bosses on the way (being also the "midtier PvE content") and one big after every 6 month doesnt feel a lot of work...
And this time is not only the time needed for those game to develop content... But also to allow player to enjoy the content... Because while some clear it in the first month and then farm it, getting bored and asking for the next one, other people seeing the ptr opening try to push their progress faster to do as much as they can before the next raid release.
So in your "pressure to have new content faster" you need to define exactly who do the pressure, and then judge if "only them" is those to listen, or have to extend to more?
2) Faster with tracker than without : true, but in AoC, with similar difficulty than WoW/FFXIV, the global PvE progress will be slower.
On the two old MMORPG, guilds can focus on PvE when they want. ignore anything else. . . Impossible on AoC... because it would make your city or metropole weaker, and get downgraded, or get sieged and destroyed. Guilds wont be able to do those 7 days (for top world) or 1 month where they focus only on the new raid... The gametime can't be extended with no limit, so more time you spend on anything that is not the raid will be less time training on the boss, on finding its strategy, training to apply it and finally kill it... and THEN finally farm it !
Other ... we know dungeons and raid will be influenced by nodes growth... We can totally expect raid to not be avaible if no metropol/city (T6/T5 node) to extend their area to them. ... So if recently a siege destroy a metropol, the raid(s) in its area could be temporary disabled => slower progress
3) What some players request are not a thing they have to receive...
People will request some kind of QoL after AoC release, those QoL i think everyone currently posting on those forum agree to be a big "nope" like Duty finder for example (but not only)... So could go for new PvE content :
As i said in the begning of the post, it is IS work and not our work to do profit from this game. The problem is profit ? fine but profit doesnt need new high end PvE content too often. What you need for your game is ... or people coming back spending ton in CS, leaving, rince and repeat (... all F2P but also FFXIV... and wow even if its cash shop grow slower than others) or "player rentention". Player retention needs you to have people enjoying the game, and don't get bored, on WoW, PvE boys do their weekly kill, and here we are, sure... after some months it gets boring, but what if, due to how the game works, with all those diplomatic shits, and maybe some other things needed to be able to fight boss, this already ask a lot of gametime for the guild to be able to do the boss, so most guilds manage to fight it far less than once a week ? Yes, the boss seems fresh and new far longer than in WoW/FFXIV.
So... you point a problem, and i say "we don't even know if the game will makes it a problem due to many unknown factors.
If we look at wow history. the speed of clean of contents didnt follow only the fact tracker were more and more used... But also the loss of all kind of keys/attunements, the fact that due to being 2 times a year, top end PvE scene began to fit some hollidays and similar thing when the raids were released. (but could fast be wasted with siege defense etc in AoC)
So for AoC ? we speak about an unknown future, with too much unkown factor to clearly identify if there will be a problem or not...
Also, faster with than without... this is considering there is a case with no tracker, and a case with tracker. There will be tracker. The problem is to have a pace of new content enough to avoid people to be bored and leave. this is the only question.
The real question discussed there for now lot of pages... Is mainly "in game tracker, limited to guild perk and to scan guildmate vs third party tracker". I don't see situation there is an activ PvE life with real challenging content without any kind of tracker. If they don't have it in game, people will create it themselves.
I have been over these in this thread (post page 100), but I'll go over them again.
Keep in mind though, I am only talking about absolute top end content here - 3 or 4 encounters in a cycle out of what should be 30 or so raid encounters.
If these encounters are designed around the paradigm of chaos rather than tight scripting (WoW and FFXIV use tight scripting, most other games use an amount of chaos mixed in with scripting).
If Intrepid go with a chaotic paradigm, encounters take significantly less time to develop, and also take longer to kill.
There us a reason games that rely on heavily scripted content never manage to keep up with players, while games that allow a good amount of chaotic encounters do manage to keep up with players.
This one paradigm shift literally deals with all three of the issues you have outlined above (which I agree are worth consideration).
As an aside, chaotic encounters as a design choice suits Ashes better than heavily, tightly scripted encounters do.
It is worth noting that chaotic encounters designed without taking trackers in to account are fairly basic, and not worth being cared top end. It is only when you assume trackers are being used (which is why we are only talking g about top end) that chaotic encounters match what a heavily scripted encounter can bring in terms of difficulty - but at that point these chaotic encounters do indeed surpass scripted encounters considerably.
@Aerlana
@Noaani
Conclusion gained from your posts >
The solution is to specialize the content, which is achieved with or without the trackers people build, one's hope as a dev is that the players who build trackers/parsers are having so much fun doing it their respective ways that they do not care as much.
Specialization of content IS more work, yes, but I believe it's a standard investment. Players who don't build trackers would be more likely to lose interest in nonspecialized simplistic content (from the PvE side) as well.
Chaotic based encounters are easier and faster to produce than heavily scripted encounters, work better for top end content, and take longer for players to defeat.
By every metric you are bringing up, they are coming out on top.
The problem is, this encounter type does not work without trackers.
So, essentially, adding trackers and developing the correct encounters for them will take less time and money from Intrepid, for content that lasts longer for players.
In this regard, it really shouldnt even be a discussion.
To me this sounds same as entitled pvers demanding pve servers or entitled pvpers demanding no corruption servers. The only difference is that Intrepid can completely limit either of those entitled people through mechanics and be up-front about it. And they have, with their "not for everyone" line.
And the problem mainly comes from Intrepid saying they want to have complex bosses w/o going into any kind of detail as to how they want to achieve that, and the tracker people saying that no boss can be difficult enough if it wasn't designed with tacker people in mind.
In other words, after these 141 pages, Intrepid just need to finally explain their boss design and either tell tracker people "you're included in the "everyone" that we talk about" or say "we realize that in order to have properly difficult bosses we'll need to provide particular tools, so tell us which ones those are".
I do not intend to use a Tracker for Ashes if the desire of the developers is that we do not use them.
I do not intend to compete with other people that I will expect to be using trackers either, though, especially not in an owPvP game (it does not matter if a given thing is instanced or not).
See what I'm getting at here?
I'm simply saying that anything that says 'Intrepid won't allow trackers so we don't need to discuss this', leads only to a situation in which everyone who follows the Vision is playing a self-imposed challenge run.
I don't see a reason to take a competitive game seriously in that situation, do you?
EDIT: Why hate on P2W/RMT but not Tracker usage? Oh, wait, y'all don't want Tracker usage, fine. Can you stop it? No, but people can be convinced you can. Yay. At least RMT, you could actually stop.
And as I see it, if everyone's under the same "challenge" then it is still a competition. A couple's 3-legged race can be won super easily by a single person running normally, but if you forbid those single people from doing so (because those are the rules) - you have yourself a 3-legged competition.
But we've kinda discussed this before. Everyone has their preferences in gaming, which is why this has been going on for 140+ pages. Noaani and everyone else has just been discussing their opinions and preferences back and forth, which is an endless activity.
Ah, this is sorta sad, I feel like if even you believe this, then Mag's brute force 'tactic' actually worked.
I thought it would take a better turn, for example when Dolyem shifted to the understanding that you can't actually even detect these.
Cause that's the core of it, but I guess if you repeat irrelevance enough times, even someone like you blanks out the actual point?
Or is it that you simply ignore the potential for the tracker even if the tracker is absolutely undetectable? I guess you could also 'believe that there is a way to design a game so that a tracker doesn't help' but then I feel like it's worked twice over.
Would you like a video on the current state of AimBots, or is that a waste too?
EDIT: You can just search Arduino Aimbot Valorant. Enjoy.
But again, that decision can only come after they reveal what their boss design is exactly. Just like Dygz fell off the game after the open seas update, I'd assume any hardcore tracker users would say that they are no longer interested in the game if Intrepid explicitly state "we're gonna track how people do the content. If a group of people easily clears it, while every other raid struggles - we will keep designing the game for those who're still struggling".
But again though, that would only work if Intrepid drop the "<10% clearable" thing they promised, because otherwise they'd need to appeal to exactly that small group of people who use trackers no matter what Intrepid say just because they don't care about what rules the game has.