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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
So no in game trackers make them less effective already, that is good to hear. It goes with hybrid combat will continue to make them less effective on top of the game not being designed for them, SO between a bunch of things like I've said before they can make trackers not that effective or good and people will see less reason to use them or not care from the more hardcore tracker "small" group of players.
~They want combat designed around trackers.
Less fun, as analyzing data, finding efficiencies, anomalies and other such things is a part of the fun to people like me.
While I understand that not everyone enjoys these things, not everyone needs to enjoy them. A guild only needs one person willing and capable of using a tracker properly.
Top end players are likely to just buy these materials.
This is what will keep the market for them alive. I mean, if everyone just gathered their own (or if every guild just gathered their own), the market would be slow.
Ya that is not fun content no lol. Skill needs to be in the game not looking at logs.
Exactly what he was saying gameplay with trackers involved.
DPS meters are useless. I need to know whether my buffs are working, not whether my "damage rotations are perfect". Any pure "DPS meter" is useless, and no-one should bother making it. That's the "compromise" I'd offer the "toxicity" crowd. Don't include a DPS stat.
This is what trackers are for:
This isn't cheating. This doesn't tell me any of the boss's secrets. (Unless you really thought I wouldn't notice the boss had a knockback ability.)
This is about my own performance. It's not about damage, it's about "did I even notice I failed to do my own basic job?". Don't blame my healer because I fucked up. Don't tell me "git gud" because the Summoner got unlucky. Tell me HOW I failed.
Battles are complex. If your combat system isn't terrible, they're fast, complex, reactive, tactical, and there's a lot going on. Defeat can seem random. Except when you know what happened, out of the thousands of events, actions, and reactions in a given fight.
You shouldn't have to be lucky to see it, or have another group member see it. That just wastes your party's time. I need to know I fucked up three minutes ago and caused that wipe.
This is the point of trackers. They show you how to improve.
My group's got a "tracker" in semi-super-human form. A lot of people don't.
I can agree in the rare occasion changes are reverted a tracker can be useful. Also, not all guides are written by those with trackers. Some guides are literally written from personal experience. Trackers only become mandatory for guides and raid groups when the devs design raids with a tracker. If a tracker hasn't been used, then more often than not a tracker is not required for the encounter - despite whether the encounter is top 10% or top 1%. However, I still think banning trackers is a tad childish.
a. It affects the overall balance of the game, you can see what the class is OP, and it should be nerfed and vice versa
b. On difficult bosses, not only tactics count is the most important !!, you will not kill the boss if someone dps/heal let's say 1/3 of what others do, and by a couple of such people all of them they die.
In general, weak players prefer to live in the shadows, and they are always on "no", the simple solution you do not want, do not use, let others have fun too
In general, human creativity knows no limits and I have always been for "all addons"
you have SWTOR or New World and a lot of other games where the "no" dmg metter is, and a handful of people play there, because no one knows who is playing well, who is playing badly, there is no competition, there is nothing ..
Rage mechanics are boring those are old age to add difficulty, the fight should be difficult from start to finish and allow people to take as much time as they need in their approach unless they wipe.
Yes knowing if a class is broken is important, devs can take care if something is op and they will 100% of their own trackers to use top help gauge things, a player doesn't need that.
SWTOR and new world have nothing to do with it, im sure there is trackers in swtor even if it isn't widely available because that game is based on WoW.
This game doesn't support add on and i do not want all add ons and that is where things lead to and people start pulling out combat assistance and you are fight half human half bot.
On that note: Buff/Debuff/CC trackers are mostly used to align cooldown timers and maximize burst dps. Interrupt trackers are mostly used to make interrupt rotations easier. Maybe this comes across as me having an arrogant and overly simplistic stance on that but I've never seen the need for trackers just for those things. Imho, a player that doesn't notice a change in the flow of the battle, especially after having tried/cleared a boss multiple times, and that is not able to communicate that effectively to his group, is not a top-end player.
Just to clarify: I'm not against those kind of trackers, I'm just saying that I don't see a real need for them. I do, however, see a need for dps/hps meters. Also, yes I love competition and yes I love to theorycraft and yes I love to make guides, so I do have a natural bias towards wanting trackers.
And on a side note: I know there's a heavily negative stereotype surrounding dps meter-users, but imho I wouldn't call most dps meter-users toxic at all. Most of them, in my experience, have been the most helpful and reasonable players I've come across, especially when it comes to helping me improve. Sure there are toxic ones, but you'll always find those kinds of people, dps meter or not.
However: I highly disagree with you on this one. I'd really like to know a devs view on this point.
I don't think anyone here wants that.
i don't play a lot solo games... the last years but i mostly try to get the best of the characters, no one needing tracker for this due to how they are design :
Hollow Knight (testing charms and charms combinaision is fast and information given are small number)
Redid drakengard 3, did nier gestalt, automata and replicant => easy games, you faceroll it, try to push character but when game doesnt resist...
DoS1/2 = optimised a lot, but turn base with not huge quantity of data to read. no need tracker.
Same goes for Pathfinder WotR (and this is needed for this game to have the good builds)
Only souls game : DS3 : was not fan of games, killed all bosses, pushed character for it, just to kill them all... But was really not fan.
I also play a lot on Neverwinter Night 2, persistant roleplay server... but as DoS1/2 tracker is not needing to optimise build, it remains DD3.5 with a "false" real time. I produce lot of build for me friends or ideas, i try to make them as efficient as their concept allow (RP concept of character first so... they are never "perfect")
For me, but also build for friends. I have fun building characters a lot in 3.5 system (old DD or recent pathfinder)
Maybe, incoscious it is my e-peen, but i always loved to find out how to have max efficiency, even before having internet. Always fun to break the game for me.
As lot of players play MMORPG without trying to be top level with their character, i am perfectly fine with it. You don't need to look at solo game to see this. When you don't imprint a competition mindset too deep in the game, lot of people don't care about their efficiency... When i was on Aion, being a game around mass PvP most people try to be as good as possible (with, for limit, the time they wanted to spend in the game) far more than wow. And i also felt less overall toxicity than wow (not only around who has biggest DPS but simple able to clean content or not) but maybe because i had a friend list with really good people...
On FFXIV lot of people just... dropped the idea to do savage content, staying on primal xtrem that are easy content, they try to have enough mastery in their character to make it smooth and stop there.
GW2 is in a special situation.
the builds are not so easy to figure out by themselves, the "talent trees" are not as clear in benefits as other games. . . I always begin with simple mathematics to have base ideas. On FFXIV, it can be enough, tracker being more for combat specific rotation, on WoW it is a good basis but not enough. but for GW2... i didnt manage to have result.
The game itself is ONLY horizontal progress, reaching awakened stuff is just a month of farm (maybe 2 if you don't play a lot) and ... there, you are bis stuff... You bis from the time you got full awakened until today. The endless farm for legendaries gives only QoL benefits and aesthetic.
Also, recent expansion in GW2 show a problem : lot of people doesn't want to step up at all, and it forced Arenanet to hard nerf a wonderfull meta event, that was not so hard when you figure out all mechanics (and the tracker was not the tool to understand it due to how meta event works)
But also, they continue to work in getting their PvE more enticing for all, and THIS will make even "low players" to improve their gameplay (without even trying specifically)
The large difference in GW2 is also a consequence of it, lot of players just don't touch raids, strike of factals. So they can't feel the need to progress, and they don't even go thru harder challenge making them passively progress.
You said solo games, but the best solo games begins to be quite easy, and while you go thru the story, fights becomes more and more technic. but in GW2 people never continue to go find a slightly more difficult challenge that what they are already able to do.
PoE is a hack and Slash in a seasonnal system... and i hate seasonnal system because this will always lead to this problem.
Same goes for Diablo 3... just with a far less complex game to do builds. but the problem is still similar.
Your players want to have higher and higher challenge. (Don't say me that people would play seasons after seasons just for doing the story again and again... ) PoE have really hard bosses (the "ubers" ) D3 has this greater rift system.
BUT the need of extensiv theorycraft in PoE is NOT a consequence of the high difficulty, but the complexity on building a character. With the passiv skill web, the huge amount of affix on stuff, and the gem system.
Sure if the game was easier (lets say to difficulty are boss without their "uber" version) but would the game still have a such activ community ? Not sure honestly, it would be fast boring.
Guides are good tools to skip people all long maths needed to get the top of your characters... Some would absolutely hate doing it. The only problem with guides is, most of time it is a "do it, obey don't think" but in PoE it is not a so big problem (the game is a H&S... closer to single player with eventually coop time)
And because i do currently my second season on POE (did a first with the delve season, and didnt push far for various reason) yes i just took guide... and just due to my habits, try to understand deeper. but don't even need it to progress.
About Tracker for all or hardban :
The matter in "tracker for all" remains some are hugely missusing it. And it generates problem... AND MORE
Some people totally dislike it... The FFXIV/WoW situation result a thing that is for me a problem : some people don't dream to reach summit, just want to do the contents in the range they defined (as "only primal extrem, not savage raid" in FFXIV is real for a large part of community)... But get their data recorded, and uploaded on warcraftlogs/fflogs without their consent, so anyone can see their data, and judge them... For me it is a soft version of "private life"...
A regulation is needed... and the best way to regulate is to find a system to limit this record even when not needed. a game based a lot around grouping with guild/friendlist is a first basis, a good tool but with limits is another one i think.
Hard ban third party :
I said that FFXIV never banned for "kick another due to low parse" but "saying they kicked for this reason". because this is the reality... Third party in FFXIV are forbidden... But even radar, which was a real problem for the hunting system, they had hard time to ban it... really.
Mods are also forbidden, they change gamefiles. But because they don't scan gamefiles... they simply can't ban. Was same for wow before, until a change in the .exe (and people got ban early, then, blizzard didnt flag the modders but can happen any time again).
FFXI... SE was even more dumb, there was a mod making the game far better to watch (reshade) but ALSO added a way to have windowed full screen and other similar QoL. This also was the way for people to mod the game (which was forbidden by itself) most people used it while there, SE had a strict enforcement of rules but... couldn't do it.
For third party, there are many way to have a tracker... some have absolutely 0 direct interaction with game, some simply read game information, and other can even read the information your computer and the server is sharing. The first case, it is impossible to detect it if you don't watch what is happening on computer. Personally, it is a big NO to allow a game to scan my activity on my computer.
Where is the problem ?
Me average for this second league went thru act 1-10 with 4-5 death with my custom build (i always do them squishy because... why have a tough character if you avoid to be hit?!) and spend few days as you said...
In the meantime, some people who was playing their 20th league, that know perfectly the story, and are even bored of it do it in a single day... This is normal.
with each wow xpac some does it in 12 hours, i need around 24h and some people needs far more game time than me. Even worse in FFXIV, where i need less than 48h (not 48h gameplay) while some in my FC needs close to 2 weeks, and 5 time my own gametime to do it... same then i had to raid lead in primal extrem (so not a disaster gameplay wise)
A player with spend months to do all elden ring bosses, maybe never malenia because they abandon after 100th fail. They will needs hours even on their second character to rerun the game with another buid to reach the first major boss and kill it
meanwhile, speedrunners glitchless will do a full boss in some hours.
I don't see any kind of problem.
In fact i think it is better to have PoE this way : each one at their pace. anyone with custom random build can end act 10... I don't see any issue here.
Was called for a long time FFXI... and the community was complaining about it. (not all was hidden also.. but still lot of major informations)
It reached its pinnacle with Pandaemonium Warden and Absolute Virtue...
Fun was not what came to my ears speaking about those boss, or those problems... but a pain in the ass.
(ok... the hours long fight was part of problem... but when after months players still don't understand strategy and devs just gives a really cryptic hint... ... )
We speak about a game where a class was thought as DPS by devs, they wanted it to be DPS, and it ended to be one of the top tank (if not the top tank) for lot of fights...
A really good game FFXI, but... this is also a good example about how devs can be totally out of touch on their own game... And why it is nice to have players able to... check what is happening
You coudl say "devs were bad simply" ... But so what about the C'thun problem? the mistake in some ARR bosses ? Here are example of the early times of the 2 big mmorpg. in a new born, before they reached their peak.
Devs are human, and do mistakes. MMORPG are complex game, with far more risk of mistakes.
Mag7spy will say again "you are not dev, you don't have to check"
The list of game saved by the community doing the work of the developpers is not even limited to MMORPG... i mean, remove modders for skyrim... Not sure Todd "it just works" Howard could still sell new edition of skyrim today without a dedicated community fixing their bug...
And back in 90's and even more true in 2000's ... the huge amount of bug fix in games that came not from devs of various game but from community ?
The emulator for PS3 making some game far better and smooth to play now than before... while also getting from 30 FPS to 60 and from 720p to 1080p ?
NwN1 and 2 still living with around 20 years old with lot of bug fixed but community, or so goes for wolfenstein ennemy territory that recently got to steam and proved to never be dead thank for community improving it.
The history of video game speaks a lot about the community doing the developpers' work...
And after recent fallout4/fallout76, i trust enough bugthesda to make this history continue to grow with starfield.
I also consider that any mmorpg to be released yet, be it from big companies like riot, or from crowd fundings like AoC won't stop this history because i see no way they could not need it...
I'm going to give you my take on this - and you are free to agree or disagree with it.
To me, the real value in a tracker is in using it after the fact to analyze. Using a tracker during combat is of limited use, imo.
This is the reason buffs and debuffs being tracked by a tracker is of use to me. While I can keep a close eye on mine during combat, if I am looking at things after the fact, I want to be able to see when each buff or debuff was active for the whole raid.
Obviously there is no need to see or know this information during combat - I doubt anyone playing content where this kind of information would be of value would have the time to even process it, let alone act on it.
However, after the fact, it is very useful to have.
No one wants that.
I'm confused.
Are you suggesting that games never have bugs, because developers always find them before they get to players?
I ask, because if that is not what you are suggesting, then the comment I quoted above makes no sense.
Either the game can have bugs and players find them, report them and then the developers attempt to replicate, analyze and fix them, or games simply do not ship with bugs.
Which is it you are saying?
This is the comment you make when you attempt to take things out of context to fit what you want to hear.
Imagine being that desperate to hear what you want....Granted you most likely don't play other games so you have no clue of context and only relate it to what you want to hear again.
I'm going to go with what i have said before, you don't need tools you aren't a developer nor are you QA. Stop trying to use that as an excuse to cheat in a game. If you think you need tools to know what was wrong with fallout 76 you honestly are blind or acting stupid on purpose.
Travel 10km with feet = anyone can do. travel 10km in 1h = lot can do it, not all. reduce even more time, and even less people will be able. You are so increasing difficulty.
This goes for fight, the fight have to be hard with difficult mechanics... and be then hardened asking people to still send huge DPS.
Else? Remove any kind of DPS check, and just go a raid with 10 tank, 30 healers, enjoy.
2) you mistake deeply thinking that because of "action gameplay" tracker won't be able to do their work... It exist already for such kind of gameplay on other game.
"buuuut AoC is hybrid"... ok, so part tabtargetting, part action, 2 kind of gameplay where tracker are functionnals... so... yes it is not a matter at all.
2. We have already gone over this, clearly trackers aren't as effective depending on the game and the systems Between trackers not being supported by the developers and action combat trackers will be far less effective.. ..Which will cause people to not care about trackers and make them mostly obsolete except for some try hards needing to desperately hold onto it because they lack actual skill.
There are lot of ways to add difficulty... but if you have no time limit, it will always be easier and far more open to all than with a time limit.
You can add 20kg backpack, i could do it in 10 hours, allowing to do 15 minutes walk, 45 minutes rest. easy.
add more and more difficulty, hard mechanics, that hit hard ? no problem with a team full of tanks and healers it won't be a problem, if the fight was thought for 1hours but i kill it in 10h, i still win.
But if you are sure i mistake, show me example to add difficulty that can replace adding some kind of DPS check ? (and i say replace, it means that adding time limit would be useless to make the fight harder)
I still know no mechanic in anygame that make a time limit useless to make fight harder
Aaaaand don't speak about limited mana for healers... This is... a form of enrage. A soft enrage to be exact.
You have to kill boss before healers run out of mana. the most basic form of enrage
Will ? why do you use future while there are already tracker on action gameplay MMORPG ?
What limit tracker efficiency is how they can gather information.
You want tracker impossible to use ? Remove combat log (there will be one) remove numbers near character when they hit/get hit (there will be) remove displayed life bar and hide any kind of proof when a button for a skill is used. . .
So, a question for you.
If someone does something for a living that you do not do, and they make a comment specifically in relation to the thing they do for a living that you do not do, would you believe what it is they are saying?
For example, if a plumber came to your house and fixed a leak, and said that you needed a new fixture or some such, would you believe what they are telling you?
I'm not sure the single player games you mentioned are fair comparisons since the majority are turn based and inherently mean you're calculating damager per turn which as you said, is significantly easier to calculate rather than needing a meter to record damage over time (DPS).
The only question I'd raise; would you like AoC to have a similar complexity level to PoE and if it does not, do you think it justifies not having a DPS meter?
I mean, based on current gameplay it doesn't look like it'll be harder than Drakengard 3...
Perhaps a compromise could be that only for specific encounters (world bosses/raids) a DPS meter is available to turn on for coordinating rather than for open world.
Alternatively, do you believe these kinds of trackers and stats should be available in game aswell?
DPS meter, skill range trackers, cooldown trackers or AoE indicators. These would all help players to analyze the raw data. But I do think this would be unfun in the long term.
Based on current gameplay, it doesn't look like there are even AoE indicators to dodge in AoC (GW2 / FF14 have these).
In a game so focussed on conflict between players, I can understand why IS might want to obscure some information and force the player to learn timings and range of skills themselves rather than use a tool to calculate for them in the heat of the moment.
If you are fighting a boss for 10 hours straight that sounds like a pretty hard boss and you would have to be pretty skilled to be fighting it without the boss hp resetting.
By default the boss / adds/ players missing attacks on you won't be read with action based attacks so there is going to be a gap in information. Also The dev taking action against people they find using trackers is also important. When people start getting hard banned they will think twice from the progress they lose.
If PvE is to be demanding, which is a very good example of WoW raids Mythic, everyone must know the tactics perfectly and play to the full or close full potential of their class & gear, very often there are people who play poorly, their task is to learn to play correctly, and the raid group must have preview if people are playing well or if they press any keys and do their tactic job, but weak dps or heal etc - and this is incorrect.
there must be preview tools, that ultimately help a lot with balancing the class as well
Regards.
Name me a raid in wow that last 10 consecutive hours for a single fight. And I'm not talking about wipes.
Granted if you feel you got context wrong you are free to correct yourself.
Please answer the question.
Sounds like a lame example, If you are paying someone for professional advice and it is something you don't know much about then it makes sense you take that advice unless they do something that you feel is wrong.
So, in other words, listen to a professional unless you disagree with them.
So, fun fact, Margret has said that the job of CS is far easier when players have access to objective data. We are able to state what issues we see (or think we see) much better, in a way that allows CS to more easily and quickly understand and reproduce. It saves them time and money, and allows them to get to more bug reports more quickly.
Based on this, would you then concede that trackers are a useful tool for bug finding, or are you just going to disagree with someone that actually knows what they are talking about, on a matter where you do not?
You can find bugs without trackers, if you think something is wrong you are free to test skill even more so after a update. If you really cared to do so that is already available to you.
It is very obviously if you have dev tools everything is easier including some elements of gameplay. You don't need tools so you can in turn use that for gameplay.
Trust me I'm well aware you are manipulative you will take any words and stretch it. Now how you are trying to use it to benefit your bias take doesn't really matter. I'd simply ask if they want gameplay to be designed around trackers, if it is fine if it makes some element of the game easier and if they are for that.
Really you are just taking a quote at the end of the day and are just saying the grass is green. Doesn't really help push your point. Also you forget I also work in the entertainment business.