DPS Meter Megathread

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Mag7spy

Amaa wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Glad to say people supporting trackers will do anything to waste time just to post on this thread.

In that case, you are wasting the most time here, from what i can see, not we

Mag7spy wrote: »

Don't put words in my mouth on what i think is difficult

You said that before ...

Mag7spy wrote: »

Ya its the same people that just respond so I'm just going in cause their arguments are actually stupid for trackers. The more they talk the more inconsistencies will show up like them being for gameplay around trackers now, and their view on what is toxic is not the same as others so they can ignore or say those things they have "never seen".

I just have to deal with some bs tactics they use and manipulation.

After this statement, I definitely know that you have no experience, you mainly troll, and that your arguments do not make sense

Regards

I know i have more experience than you nice try lmao.

With you "all add on support" you are 100% a person to support combat assistance.

Amaa

Hard to write with you, as I already expressed myself clearly in the first post, and only now you noticed

soo, I guess something proves it about u..

As for your experience, I doubt very , very much;)

Regards

Mag7spy

Amaa wrote: »

Hard to write with you, as I already expressed myself clearly in the first post, and only now you noticed
soo, I guess something proves it about u..

As for your experience, I doubt very , very much;)

Regards

Just because i notice doesn't mean ill reply unless you are saying a bad take like that for all add ons which includes combat assistance unless you double or triple down while saying something stupid. But you got the attention you were begging for now.

O you don't need to doubt its a fact, just more game experience than you in general. I'm sure you aren't much of a player without combat assistance as well

Amaa

I begged lol .. I admire your logic

I hope that the game will not be built on the basis of players like you

Regards

Mag7spy

Amaa wrote: »

I begged lol .. I admire your logic

I hope that the game will not be built on the basis of players like you

Regards

Game isn't supporting add ons, i guess you missed the memo

Amaa

if implemented into the game it is no longer an addon

Regards

Mag7spy

Amaa wrote: »

if implemented into the game it is no longer an addon

Regards

Ya its not being implemented into the game

MrPockets

Mag7spy wrote: »

O you don't need to doubt its a fact, just more game experience than you in general. I'm sure you aren't much of a player without combat assistance as well

@Mag7spy these type of comments are not helping anyone, and probably are doing your side of the argument more harm than good. This is you being toxic, while claiming you want to reduce toxic behavior...

This is also exactly the type of situation that the other side says happens without meters. Each side claiming they are doing more damage without anyway to prove it.

I was on your side before...but now I'm not so sure...

Mag7spy

MrPockets wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

O you don't need to doubt its a fact, just more game experience than you in general. I'm sure you aren't much of a player without combat assistance as well

@Mag7spy these type of comments are not helping anyone, and probably are doing your side of the argument more harm than good. This is you being toxic, while claiming you want to reduce toxic behavior...

This is also exactly the type of situation that the other side says happens without meters. Each side claiming they are doing more damage without anyway to prove it.

I was on your side before...but now I'm not so sure...

Either is someone trying to insult me and getting the same energy back when they are for all add ons. Which includes combat assistance.

Hard to write with you, as I already expressed myself clearly in the first post, and only now you noticed
soo, I guess something proves it about u..

Mag7spy

The proof is in the experience of people with meters that have expressed they don't want them and have seen or experienced toxic behavior do to them.

Aerlana

MaiWaifu wrote: »

But isn't this data already available in game without a DPS recording tool?

Is the argument essentially just asking to make it easier and faster to process the data?

Combat log should (in any game) give all those information for sure.
Because, if you want a simple small information (as damages of a skill after you did full buff you) there is no need to open a tracker so... And for lot of people who don't care to get deep in minmaxing, combat log is already enough.

But as you say, it is faster to have a visual on those datas thru a tracker.
The work of a tracker is to avoid you to read each line of log, put the information of each line in a spreadsheet you already spend time on to prepare it (with some macro, and cells whose work is to give some specific information as "highest damages" etc)

There are lot of ways to enjoy a game, some like to push their character, find new builds etc.
But if you have to spends hours just to gather the data of test you did, it means you play less... (and also, share less informations you got)
Tracker is, for people who do theorycraft or at smaller scale try to improve themselves, a tool to simple spend more time filling some spreadsheet... no more no less. Saying it is cheating to avoid this time spent is dumb

MaiWaifu wrote: »

Let's say 3rd party tools are allowed. How will IS be able to identify when someone is using a combat tracker vs a battle assistant?

This is why I think it should either be ingame by default or result in a hard ban.

As i said, hard ban needs IS to be able to know who uses third party tool.
FFXI is a good example, to have a window full screen but also mod the game, they used a tool, most people used it due to comfort it gave, even without using mods. And was strictly forbidden, SE banned anyone who gave enough proof (in SE's opinion) they used it... it never avoided people to use it because SE had no way to know who used it.

Now, if they were good developpers, such kind of thing can be detected because it interact directly with the game, so does mods. Currently, with the new .exe for WoW, mods user can have their accoutn flag and be victim of a ban wave... it happened the first banwave after the .exe change, many people manage to have their account back, and blizzard didnt do it against for mods. (the change aimed mainly on bots) even if mods are against TOS (file modification).

But for tracker... lets imagine a software that simply READS what happens in the window "ashes of creation" it can detect where there are texte lines (so chat log/combat log), so it can read each line and process information : no interaction with the game itself, only way to detect it : scan computer activity. to know if other software are running, and which. This is why third party is a common thing while always against ToS...

For combat assistant ? There are also way to have it without acting directly with the game : acting like a filter on your screen. (but big loss of accuracy of information, far worse than tracker).
Goldselling is forbidden everywhere (aside the "legal" RMT some MMORPG have for sure) but again... without good way to define which trade is RMT or not... hard to ban. And most of time, people buying big amounts, or regular small/medium amount are at risk. This will be a problem also on ashes... The solution ? look at FFXIV, gils are useless for most people, mainly needed to buy your house then, the millions your gather are for decoration/skins... some good friend crafter, you just have to focus on gathering job and you don't even need gils. and there are still gil-selling on FFXIV. BDO don't have "silver selling" because totally impossible (no trade, and AH has regualted prices). . . ALL other mmorpg had or have the gold selling problem. not all time a huge one, but it is always a thing. And for BDO... you can pay to have a dude doing hours farm for you instead...

I don't judge if any of those things are good or bad (third party in general, some specific, gold selling, powerleveling, Real Money paid carry). But to pretend "hard ban" them you have to be able first to be sure to detect most case it occurs, and with a really low rate of "false positiv". So before to say "just ban them" ask yourself why no mmorpg manage to get rid of those things. (or doing bdo way : limit a lot players liberty)

Also, ToS often includes things that the devs, when writing the ToS, didnt care at all by itself, but wanted to have this way easy solution to ban some behaviour... Here comes the case of modding in wow i explained. It seems that blizzard don't care about it, while tos forbid it thru the "no file modification".
Blizzard already blocked some addon, it even happened to make an announcement to stop to use one, until it got "killed" thru a patch soon. Blizzard shared API and threatened of ban users of one addon this way because it went too far (This add made the AOE show of FFXIV really nothing XD )
There are ToS and there are how the devs/publisher apply it.

MaiWaifu wrote: »

The main reason I disagree with access to any meters is purely because of the open world PvP aspect and it being able to assist in real-time decision making.

all datas are usefull. and not only to find bugs. Because those data are factual situation in game, that confirms or not your theorical calculation. This is just applying here the scientific method : you have maths on paper, you have information given, etc... but in fact, we openly don't care at all... what matters is what reality says.

Now, reading your tracker during the fight is stupid : When fighting, we have to =>
-consider where is our character in the environment
-where is ennemies, and where is our target (only part of ennemies)
-react to AOE, react to cc
-have a follow on buffs durations, and couldown.

those are thing you have to do now, and where the tracker itself can't help.
If you had to read tracker during fight... you will lose your focus on some of previous point, and do bad work.

while battle assistant allow you to make decision (showing the range is a great help for sure) tracker is just the "spreadsheet" work done... and the use is AFTER a fight. not during a fight.

MaiWaifu wrote: »

Yeah I agree, I assume most bosses will have some visual indication of large skils but we'll have to wait until next alpha probably to see for ourselves

Do you think we should be allowed tools to analyze how large their range actually is if they decide to not have AoE indicaters (LA, GW2, FF14, etc)?

I think, should go on where the AOE indicator is (like most i saw in LA, and lot in GW2) bind to the aesthetic of the skill. and not a pre-call one. And we shouldn't have tools, except if they want us to collect data to send them. (not impossible there could be bugs on size of AOE). But those kind of bug are easy to see without tools...

Why i say "we shouldn't" those tools are the tools used in combat assistant, and i doubt it would be a good idea to give to alpha2 testers and beta testers combat assistant to remove it after (frustration, bad habit).
Devs should follow some raid doing the fights and see what happen. Because they know each aoe, they could easily suspect if it works well or no (and then go read datas). But watching fight allow to find lot more thing, including on the balancing side => what you see directly is a great addition to players feedback.

Aerlana wrote: »

To be clear : Tracker is a tool to do measures. it gives informations you can have without it, but... far faster to have it this way. and it remain just information... if you don't know what to do with... it is still useless
Assistant (like in video) are the software that does part of the work for you. Using it too much make you dependant of it. but also remove part of the learning process.
2 totally different thing, 2 totally different subject.

MaiWaifu wrote: »

Just to be clear, what information do you think should be available using a DPS meter?

list of skill use, and the damages (and/or DPS) they did all along the fight (so you did 100 DPS, due to skill A did 60, B did 30 and C did 10)
Shows for each number of crit, normal, miss (and more if there is more cases) the top damage of the skill and lowest. (100 average damage is not the same if the skill goes from 90 to 110 or 20 to 1000)
Same goes for heals (and have directly either HPS or more important for me : HPM) damage received, crowd controlls, buff uptime, etc.

So in short : ALL information a player could collect by himself thru combat log
No more but no less.

realtime decision : during the fight itself. you don't have time to roam tracker's information during the fight, avoiding aoes you see, react to cc, to add spawn, doing your rotation etc won't give you time to watch to combat tracker, and travel its different pannel to have informations.
Having a tracker that hide during fight not being "dummies" would, in my opinion, have 0 impact on players because they already don't have time to roam it. if they have time : or they play bad, or the game is giving players too much freetime during fights. (And... this makes fight easier)

MaiWaifu wrote: »

Could you give an example of what a DPS meter would be able to help with in terms of bug reporting?

I will give an example of bug that can happen where the tracker is helpfull :
Your character has 50% crit chance, globally, the scrolling numbers around your character continue to show around 50% of hit that are crit. but you don't have in fight enough focus on it to count it well. and As basis you won't go paranoid "there was a patch recently, sure my class now get some bugs !"

Now, you read your tracker, and you are surprise to see a skill doing less average damages than it used to. You look patchnote, nothing speak about a balance on this skill. You return to tracker, you see that while your AA and skills have well 50% crit rate, this one is lower. you will go on dummy to be sure, go on more ennemies. Because... RNG is RNG and sometime, this is just bad luck.

This is a simple example where it helps a lot (else you would spend hours to do test, and count, one after one, each occurence of the skill to have its crit rate... due to how probability works, you do need LOT of occurence to have reliable numbers... faster to have statistics done with tracker)

Can also be a problem with a specific kind of monster where again, you find surprising datas with nothing in recent patchnotes to explain it.

MaiWaifu wrote: »

I think this depends on industry and company. I believe most QA teams are contractors given a list of specific functions and features to test x number of times using various methods.

I agree they will often miss things due to time constraints preventing them from testing every possible variation.

Even if there's an issue with a skill interaction not correctly effecting damage dealt or mitigated, I feel like you'd be able to visually see the discrepency without any additional trackers.

Yes, QA teams are often asked for the current build to test some specific elements to extreme. But it remains "playing the game". Just, they don't play with the freedom a players has, and with the same objectiv that a player have. (the player aim to kill bosses, be rich, kill other players, etc.. and will find some bug... QA aim to find bugs but for it, will kill bosses, collect gold, kill other playing characters and do gathering)

And the tracker is usefull to find bug because of probability...
You need to rely on lot of use of skill to be sure of the result to be statistically close to their probability...
The more you flip your coin, the closer to 50/50 it will be. the more you roll your D20, the closer you will be to have 5% of fumble. . . Meanwhile, last week on my table top, we reached 7 fumble with 53 d20 rolled... bug of the site we used ? or simply bad luck. On mmorpg, this is... even worse.

Lets take the example i gave earlier. with the skill getting 10% less crit (so probably 5% less damages, ending up less than 5% reduced DPS for the character). Do you think it would be spot without tracker ? Personally, people wouldn't even suspect it until a long time.

To end this long post (sorry for making them long XD )
You asked my what i want in trackers, and did a list.
But another way to say it :
Datas, showing datas and nothing more, just cold, soulless, numbers about what the characters tracked did, and had to suffer.
Any information that fit in combat log fit in tracker. because tracker is just an easier way to read all combat log informations.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Either is someone trying to insult me and getting the same energy back when they are for all add ons. Which includes combat assistance.

So, anyone that has been paying attention for the last 10 or so pages, and who also knows my posting style reasonably well, will recognize that basically all I have been doing in regards to you is making it blatantly obvious to anyone that you are a toxic person.

You often reply to sincerity and attempts at informing you with toxicity, you reply to toxicity with toxicity, you basically just reply to everything that isnt an outright agreement to what you are saying with total toxicity.

Not only that, you keep purposely misleading people, purposely misquoting people, purposely taking quotes out of context, and have even outright made things up that you have labeled facts.

Essentially, in the context of this thread, your face is red and blue, you have the horned hoodie, and you are charging up the stairs.

You are not interested in facts, any truth that you do not agree with will simply be substituted in your head with something you make up.

Everyone else can see the above as being true - even those not wanting trackers.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Either is someone trying to insult me and getting the same energy back when they are for all add ons. Which includes combat assistance.

So, anyone that has been paying attention for the last 10 or so pages, and who also knows my posting style reasonably well, will recognize that basically all I have been doing in regards to you is making it blatantly obvious to anyone that you are a toxic person.

You often reply to sincerity and attempts at informing you with toxicity, you reply to toxicity with toxicity, you basically just reply to everything that isnt an outright agreement to what you are saying with total toxicity.

Not only that, you keep purposely misleading people, purposely misquoting people, purposely taking quotes out of context, and have even outright made things up that you have labeled facts.

Essentially, in the context of this thread, your face is red and blue, you have the horned hoodie, and you are charging up the stairs.

You are not interested in facts, any truth that you do not agree with will simply be substituted in your head with something you make up.

Everyone else can see the above as being true - even those not wanting trackers.

The person that has said the most insults and calls people kids on the internet and says they have no experience playing games is calling me toxic lmfao.

The person that says I have 0 respect for you, and has talked even more shit, and in turn for your own lack of respect I give you back the same kind of respect.

The person that puts words in peoples mouth again says the most nonsense.

You show 0 sincerity, the person I've talk the most to in this thread is you, idk what you are talking about making up things. So you are jumping on your usual toxic manipulation to someone doing a troll post against me.

You don't speak the truth bud, you are just trying to fight with everyone for thousands of post to get trackers in the game because you are mad the game isn't being designed for it. You can clearly see that in the earlier post with your dissatisfaction.

Imagine thinking YOUR words are the truth and sincere you are literarily just a asshole lmao, saw that back in the tab thread, and it is no different here. You are stuck up your own ass and think everything you saw is right no matter what.

You are part of the reason why i don't trust trackers in peoples hands to not be toxic.

Mag7spy

Quotes out of context that is really funny. I remember you doing that very clearly especially in the tab thread. And then you tried to change the meaning of it on top of it until i called you out. In conversations I wasn't even talking to you in as well. So i'll def stand by you are one of the more toxic people I've talked to on a forum.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are part of the reason why i don't trust trackers in peoples hands to not be toxic.

Ses, if I were around someone like you in game, there may indeed be some negativity coming from myself to that person.

The trick is, I dont surround myself with people like you in games, and thus I not only aren't toxic at all, but I never even see toxicity.

The fact that you claim to see toxicity everywhere is a reflection of yourself, not of others.

If everywhere you go you see toxic people, the only common denominator with all of those situations is that you are there...

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are part of the reason why i don't trust trackers in peoples hands to not be toxic.

Ses, if I were around someone like you in game, there may indeed be some negativity coming from myself to that person.

The trick is, I dont surround myself with people like you in games, and thus I not only aren't toxic at all, but I never even see toxicity.

The fact that you claim to see toxicity everywhere is a reflection of yourself, not of others.

If everywhere you go you see toxic people, the only common denominator with all of those situations is that you are there...

Look at your trying to manipulate my words again cute. This si what i mean with how you are toxic, you have been doing this since day one. All you can do is try to put words in peoples mouth and change what they are saying. I never said I see toxicity everywhere, the toxicity I was talking about is how you act and those were all elements in relating to you.

Like imagine trying to call someone else toxic, they reply and you take their words and remold the meaning so you can continue to be toxic towards them. That is you right now.

Dolyem

How do you mute a thread lmao

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

Like imagine trying to call someone else toxic, they reply and you take their words and remold the meaning so you can continue to be toxic towards them. That is you right now.

The comment of "If everywhere you go you see X, the common denominator with all of those situations is that you are there" is a general saying. It isnt' from me, not is it to you.

It applies to you, however.

---

Correct me if I am wrong here - but you claim to have seen a good amount of toxicity in groups in relation to combat trackers, is this not correct?

I haven't. I have hardly ever seen any toxicity in an MMO outside of open chat channels (which I would class as banter more than toxicity). This is despite me always using a combat tracker - which according to you is a cause of toxicity.

So, you see more toxicity than I do, yet I am the one carrying around the toxicity causing device.

Feel free to work out for yourself why this is. I've already given you the answer above though.

Noaani

Dolyem wrote: »

How do you mute a thread lmao

Do what I do with the meme thread.

Just ignore it.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Like imagine trying to call someone else toxic, they reply and you take their words and remold the meaning so you can continue to be toxic towards them. That is you right now.

The comment of "If everywhere you go you see X, the common denominator with all of those situations is that you are there" is a general saying. It isnt' from me, not is it to you.

It applies to you, however.

---

Correct me if I am wrong here - but you claim to have seen a good amount of toxicity in groups in relation to combat trackers, is this not correct?

I haven't. I have hardly ever seen any toxicity in an MMO outside of open chat channels (which I would class as banter more than toxicity). This is despite me always using a combat tracker - which according to you is a cause of toxicity.

So, you see more toxicity than I do, yet I am the one carrying around the toxicity causing device.

Feel free to work out for yourself why this is. I've already given you the answer above though.

You are so manipulative and toxic it is insane you are honestly a issue. My your logic all the people that say there is toxicity in dps meters you are saying everyone is toxic because they see or experience toxicity from people like that.

Imagine being that disingenuous and saying it is the peoples fault and the people are toxic because of their experience with trackers.

You are so stuck in your own ass, I've said it before and you only confirm it, you literarily don't care about anyone but what you want. Everyone is wrong to you and only you are right in your view point. Pinnacle of being ignorant right there.

You are the type to do toxic actions, but do it over the guise of it is your reasoning so you aren't being toxic in your mind.

Granted it makes sense, since actions you have been doing manipulating and taking quotes out of context SINCE the pve thread that i had called you out on and explained how it was out of context. You got some serious issues.

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