So you would rather wipe the raid over and over so you don't get "spoil the boss fight mechanic"? Isn't that kind of ignorant and selfish?
Both ways are ignorant and selfish
If the boss is designed in such a way that the player will die because of perhaps a reversed logic mechanic (9/10 fights kill the adds but this one the adds explode and oneshots you) then hell yeah! Let the player die since it's the intended experience for the fight.
I am of course not talking about a 100-man raid on supremeOverLordOfDoom difficulty
Almost all player interaction issues can be resolved if people either only play with people that play the same way they do, or accept that things will not be 100% perfect for them should they step out of that group of people.
Now back to combat tracker discussion.
"Would you like the boss explained?" "Would you like tips for your class?"
"Can somebody explain this for me?" "Can somebody give me tips for my class?"
Would also resolve things, but yes in the perfect world you would be able to stick with likeminded people all of the time.
"Would you like the boss explained?" "Would you like tips for your class?"
"Can somebody explain this for me?" "Can somebody give me tips for my class?"
This comes back to playing with people that have the same goals in the game as you.
If you are joining a raid that has the purpose of killing content, then expect the boss to be explained to you. If you do not wish the boss to be explained to you, do not join a raid that has the express goal of killing that boss as quickly as they can.
Likewise, with your class/build, if you group up with people that want to be as efficient as they can be, expect them to give you some 'suggestions'. If you do not want those suggestions, stick to playing with people that are not concerned with being as fast as possible.
That is how these things are resolved.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
What's the difference between a tracker and a log?
What's the difference between a tracker and a log?
Not that you can read this, but hey, someone may quote this for you.
A log is literally just a text file of data.
A tracker takes the information from that log and displays it better for players to understand - in a way where all of it can be seen at once, as opposed to being literal tens of thousands of lines of text.
Quite honestly though, not knowing the difference between these two things should disqualify you from taking part in the discussion.
Logs are strings of data in any formatting containing what happened in a fight that can vary from a few lines (solo fight with a weak mob) to several thousand lines in a raid fight up to hundreds of thousands if it is a log of the whole raid night
tracker is a tool that reads the data to give them to you in a more understandable format
If you are joining a raid that has the purpose of killing content, then expect the boss to be explained to you. If you do not wish the boss to be explained to you, do not join a raid that has the express goal of killing that boss as quickly as they can.
IF you do not have knowledge on a specific topic, then you should not participate in a debate on it with those that do.
Sure, throw in an opinion, but be prepared to be told why your opinion is invalid - and yes, opinions can be wrong. If I said my opinion on electric cars is that they shouldn't exist because it is so much more dangerous for people to fly around in the air than it is on the ground, then clearly my assumption of what an electric car is off, and thus my opinion on them is completely invalid.
Not knowing the difference between a log and a tracker means the person in question simply doesn't have the base level understanding of combat trackers to properly take part in a debate on them - and as has been proven, that persons opinion on trackers is built on a similar false assumption to the above example about electric cars - as is Stevens.
Quite honestly though, not knowing the difference between these two things should disqualify you from taking part in the discussion.
Yikes, get out of here with that mindset
He has a point though - endlessly repeating parts of Steven's opinion as gospel not adding to it his own perspective except "I agree with Steven" and at the same time not even knowing what we are even talking about, because all he thinks about is elitism of a dps placing on a leaderboard (tbf quite funny since we know for sure there are going to be leaderboards for raids/dungeons)
this is a really small part of a combat log :
(yes in french, just screen it : "Your [spellname] inflicts damages to training dummy [value and type of damages]")
and this is what a combat tracker (or parser) shows (took random screenshot on google)
The DPS of each people in the party/raid (numbers are total damages, DPS, part of the whole raid DPS)
or what each of your spells did as damages during the whole fight (total amount of damage of the spell, part it does of my total damages) :
Parser mostly just "read" what combat log says, and transform this in statistic, graphs, etc.
This is why parser can't says how to kill a boss, they just says "you are dead from this attack, and before it you took damage from this" and they say it because the combat log already say it.
What trigger this attack, this add spawn, this phase-change, the parser will always be unable to say it. it is not its work, its work is just to transform a log with hundreds or evne thousands of line into statistics, and graphs. far easier to read
@Tragnar "not even knowing what we are even talking about"
Then what are we talking about? I take it we're primarily discussing DPS Meter which the thread is about.
this night, the discussion was full of proof that Dygz don't know anything about the subject. and this message from him is another one.
Saying that parser/combat tracker allow to do things they can't do. . . (and anyone who used parser knows they can't do such thing like "saying how to kill the boss")
So while it is quite harsh and a bad mentality. i can't blame nooani. . .
Also DPSmeter is used to refer to "combat tracker" DPSmeter is one part of "combat tracker" there is also "healtracker" (giving Heal per Second, and Heal per Mana) interrupt tracker (count of interrupt), cc, damage taken, etc.
Parser is also another word to speak about it
Also DPSmeter is used to refer to "combat tracker" DPSmeter is one part of "combat tracker" there is also "healtracker" (giving Heal per Second, and Heal per Mana) interrupt tracker (count of interrupt), cc, damage taken, etc.
Parser is also another word to speak about it
But then we're moving into the territory of a complete combat tracker. I'm aware there's loads of things to track for a fight besides damage but to be on-topic for the thread let's primarily discuss the DPS meter part of the combat tracker.
I've seen what a complete combat tracker is capable of tracking when i played WoW, it would require a whole thread of it's own to discuss the complete tool.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2021
LMAO.
We have some people here claiming that DPS meter is the same thing as a combat tracker.
But combat tracker can't be the same thing as a combat log?
ACT is an Advanced Combat Tracker. What was the basic combat tracker? How does a combat log not track combat data?
And people complain about me arguing semantics.
The wiki states: "We will be providing combat data for individual players in their chat window, that players can filter and analyze for themselves. The goal is to mitigate and make the practice less prevalent through the ease that DPS meters provide. Also to place actionable enforcement for players who attempt to circumvent the decision by use of 3rd party programs, for which we will be monitoring."
From the standpoint of the wiki - expect combat tracker v combat log to be a matter of semantics.
The wiki states: "The developers believe that parsers (DPS meters) can have negative effects."
So... parsers = DPS meters.
But, just because the wiki lists the combat data quote under combat logs does not necessarily mean that there won't be any parsing available at all.
The quote says that players will be able to filter - which seems different than the most rudimentary combat log.
But, yeah, Steven is fine with a personal combat log and will be against parsers if they provide advanced features that are in ACT, like time alerts.
Steven really doesn't even want us to have numbers in health bars. Rather, he wants us to pay attention to the decay of the nameplates. So expect the level of detailed info in the combat data to be basic rather than advanced.
In Ashes, expect fewer people to defeat a boss like Vaelastrasz with just a 40-person raid.
Steven believes, "things should be hard, people should fail, the bitter taste of defeat is what makes success that much more rewarding."
It might take more than a 40-person raid to defeat such a dragon.
Hardcore raids in Ashes may not be as hardcore as they are in other MMORPGs, just as casual in Ashes may not be as casual as it is in other MMORPGs.
How we go about defeating world bosses in Ashes, as an in-game community, may be very different than in previous MMORPGs.
Steven wrote: "Hello friends! I love reading all of the comments and opinions here. There was also a very large thread on dps meters, a little while back, where I felt Noaani articulated the position in favor of DPS meters very well.
My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed."
So, again... Steven is aware of the opposing arguments. He just doesn't agree.
Tragnar "not even knowing what we are even talking about"
Then what are we talking about? I take it we're primarily discussing DPS Meter which the thread is about.
Primarily, yes. Or more specifically, combat trackers
However, the poster in question doesn't understand the difference between a combat tracker (like ACT) and a combat assistant (like DBM), and thinks they are one and the same.
This is why my analogy about someone thinking electric cars were flying cars is somewhat appropriate (as far as analogies go). A combat assistant can also be a combat tracker, just as a flying car could also be electric. However, a combat tracker can only ever be a combat assistant if the person that made the combat tracker specifically made it to be one - just as an electric car could only be a flying car if the person that made the electric car specifically made it to also be a flying car.
Since the major suggestion in this thread (it's a long thread, I don't expect you to have read it - but the poster in question has) is for Intrepid to build in a combat tracker in to the games client.
As such, since Intrepid would be making the combat tracker, they can simply make it not function as a combat assistant at all - just as Teslas don't fly.
However, since the poster in question simply can not (or perhaps refuses to) get his head around that simple concept, imo he has no place in this discussion.
That is the entire point - dps meter is a byproduct of trackers that analyse combat logs that the game gives to players and the only possible way to truly not have a dps meter is to have trackers built in the game and have control over what it shows to whom
For example it can be a guild perk for guild raids or any other solution that was proposed here earlier.
Thing is that completely making trackers impossible to create is just not possible if the game will show you actions that you do (that you casted something etc) and actions that were done to you (like you're stunned, you've been hit etc)
The funniest thing is that even if tooltips dont show damage values and the popups say "you did unknown damage" then you still have methods to extract damage values through various methods
like:
find a respawnable mob and kill it with only one ability at a time - this way you get comparable values on which abilities hit harder
then use the weakest ability to extract possible variation for the damage values and possible health variations of the mob
repeat this a ton of times so you can then use the data to create the possible effective health (which is both armor and hp in one value) and damage range values
from there change the type of mob you're testing to get more data sets
the more data sets you get the more precise values you can get to
given enough time and manpower for testing you eventually extract true game values and mob stats
unless of course the devs secretly rebalance the values often to throw the testers off
LMAO.
We have some people here claiming that DPS meter is the same thing as a combat tracker.
But combat tracker can't be the same thing as a combat log?
ACT is an Advanced Combat Tracker. What was the basic combat tracker? How does a combat log not track a combat data?
And people complain about me arguing semantics.
It isn't semantics.
Logs are the raw data used by combat trackers, combat assistants and DPS meters.
DPS meters are meters for measuring DPS, using information from the log.
Combat tracker is a tool that tracks all combat, using information from the log.
Combat assistants are tools that take information from the log and use it to assist players in encounters in more specific ways than just providing information.
Again, all a combat tracker and DPS meter can do is display information from the log in an easier to read format.
The funniest thing is that even if tooltips dont show damage values and the popups say "you did unknown damage" then you still have methods to extract damage values through various methods
As I am sure you know, I have been spending a bit of time in the "underground combat tracker scene" lately.
One of the methods I heard about being used was a developer working on the game basically put the tracker on the server, rather than relying on client computers to do it.
Anyone that knew how to get it was then able to get all data from all combat around them straight to a log file, that could then be parsed using ACT. Since there was no unusual interaction with the game client, there was no way for it to be noticed. No one ever even thought to look at the data going from the server to the client.
This was a fairly major game, as well.
This is not a method that anyone I am aware of is attempting with Ashes, but honestly only because it isn't deemed necessary.
I said it last year, and the year before, people that want to track combat will have that data, and no game developer or publish will stop us.
Steven wrote: "Hello friends! I love reading all of the comments and opinions here. There was also a very large thread on dps meters. A little while back, where I felt Noaani articulated the position in favor of DPS meters very well.
My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed."
So, again... Steven is aware of the opposing arguments. He just doesn't agree.
As long as you allow the game to be unrestrictably streamable and at the same to not have quite advanced detection of programs that you run on your setup then you make it really easy to have a game capture being analysed by a tracker. Which is quite frankly very easy to setup for almost anyone, because it would be just about running a screencapture program and the tracker at the same time to have live data even as a discord like overlay when playing
I would very much love for them to focus on fighting cheaters instead
LMAO.
We have some people here claiming that DPS meter is the same thing as a combat tracker.
But combat tracker can't be the same thing as a combat log?
ACT is an Advanced Combat Tracker. What was the basic combat tracker? How does a combat log not track combat data?
And people complain about me arguing semantics.
The wiki states: "We will be providing combat data for individual players in their chat window, that players can filter and analyze for themselves. The goal is to mitigate and make the practice less prevalent through the ease that DPS meters provide. Also to place actionable enforcement for players who attempt to circumvent the decision by use of 3rd party programs, for which we will be monitoring."
From the standpoint of the wiki - expect combat tracker v combat log to be a matter of semantics.
The wiki states: "The developers believe that parsers (DPS meters) can have negative effects."
So... parsers = DPS meters.
But, just because the wiki lists the combat data quote under combat logs does not necessarily mean that there won't be any parsing available at all.
The quote says that players will be able to filter - which seems different than the most rudimentary combat log.
But, yeah, Steven is fine with a personal combat log and will be against parsers if they provide advanced features that are in ACT, like time alerts.
Steven really doesn't even want us to have numbers in health bars. Rather, he wants us to pay attention to the decay of the nameplates. So expect the level of detailed info in the combat data to be basic rather than advanced.
In Ashes, expect fewer people to defeat a boss like Vaelastrasz with just a 40-person raid.
Steven believes, "things should be hard, people should fail, the bitter taste of defeat is what makes success that much more rewarding."
It might take more than a 40-person raid to defeat such a dragon.
Hardcore raids in Ashes may not be as hardcore as they are in other MMORPGs, just as casual in Ashes may not be as casual as it is in other MMORPGs.
How we go about defeating world bosses in Ashes, as an in-game community, may be very different than in previous MMORPGs.
Steven wrote: "Hello friends! I love reading all of the comments and opinions here. There was also a very large thread on dps meters, a little while back, where I felt Noaani articulated the position in favor of DPS meters very well.
My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed."
So, again... Steven is aware of the opposing arguments. He just doesn't agree.
"A parser is a compiler or interpreter component that breaks data into smaller elements for easy translation into another language"
The combat tracker takes the information from the combat log via a parser and displays it. DPS meter is a component with in the combat tracker that only display the damaged done per second.
I said it last year, and the year before, people that want to track combat will have that data, and no game developer or publish will stop us.
Indeed, like there is absolutely nothing they can do to prevent you from doing that unless they find out who you are and give you an id ban (which means as soon as they find you own an account then it is immediate permaban of that account) and even then there are ways for you to go around that
What I'm talking about is that unless they plan to restrict streaming then using a tracker will be super easy and accessible
Steven wrote: "Hello friends! I love reading all of the comments and opinions here. There was also a very large thread on dps meters. A little while back, where I felt Noaani articulated the position in favor of DPS meters very well.
My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed."
So, again... Steven is aware of the opposing arguments. He just doesn't agree.
As long as you allow the game to be unrestrictably streamable and at the same to not have quite advanced detection of programs that you run on your setup then you make it really easy to have a game capture being analysed by a tracker. Which is quite frankly very easy to setup for almost anyone, because it would be just about running a screencapture program and the tracker at the same time to have live data even as a discord like overlay when playing
I would very much love for them to focus on fighting cheaters instead
This is how I parsed Stevens combat from a YouTube video.
I didn't quite have it real time - but I also did it myself (using GitHub), and I am no software developer.
As a point to Dygz final comment in that post - the argument that Steven doesn't know the difference between a combat tracker and a combat assistant didn't come up until after that post. He wrote what he said in reference to my argument under the assumption that a combat tracker was a combat assistant - as far as I am aware this is still his mistaken assumption.
The wiki states: "We will be providing combat data for individual players in their chat window, that players can filter and analyze for themselves.
Data = combat log.
If you want the difference between log and tracker, go to my message with screenshot, you will understand why it is far better to have a tracker and not log... because i have really hard time to analyse hundreds of data without a tool...
But, yeah, Steven is fine with a combat log and will be against parsers if they provide advanced features that are in ACT, like time alerts.
And i am ok with it... in fact i approve i hate boss modes. even in the act ways where the player have to create it itself after fighting the boss (and so, before having alerts, players have to understand the fight)
Steven really doesn't even want us to have numbers in health bars. Rather, he wants us to pay attention to the decay of the nameplates. So expect the level of detailed info in the combat data to be basic rather than advanced.
Not seeing healthbar of ennemy is a common thing in MMORPG, even back in the "good old days where MMORPG were great" ... those days when there was already parsers. and is still a thing today.
There is even BDO where you don't have combat bar if you don't learn some knwoledge about the mobs...
And for combat data : "[spell name] does [damages] to [target]" this is what all combat log does, and you can't do less basic than this.
In Ashes, expect fewer people to defeat a boss like Vaelastrasz with just a 40-person raid.
Steven believes, "things should be hard, people should fail, the bitter taste of defeat is what makes success that much more rewarding."
It might take more than a 40-person raid to defeat such a dragon.
Hardcore raids in Ashes may not be as hardcore as they are in other MMORPGs, just as casual in Ashes may not be as casual as it is in other MMORPGs.
How we go about defeating world bosses in Ashes, as an in-game community, may be very different than in previous MMORPGs.
*
Number of people needed =/= difficulty... Really.
He wants thing hard ? yes, i wait for him and his team to produce boss fight really hard.
But i don't thing the content will be so hard with how false he is about end game PvE in his thought about DPSmeter.
So, again... Steven is aware of the opposing arguments. He just doesn't agree.
And i will continue to say his point of vue is based over false informations, i can prove it to him if he wants.
and so, his opinion, can be the one that count, remains not accurate at all.
And because he doesn't want at all third party program
Because he wants hard content (it exists nowhere there isnt a decent use of any kind of parser)
because he wants at most not having the "combat assistant"
he really should add ingame combat tracker :
People won't try to go third party program (and it is forbidden in many games, and games never know when player uses it.) Also, many from hardcore community would jsut leave if they are banned for using an external parser. (so lower the level of the whole community )
It will allow all people to master their class, give high DPS, so fight will be focused even more around boss mechanics. Why ? if you consider people will have 95% efficiency, you can set the stats of the boss high enough to avoid people to zerg the boss life so fast that it makes the fight far more easy... because it is what happens in some bosses on other game : they were set for lower DPS player (lower stuff, or devs considered player would'nt be as good) and some team just burn boss life so fast they avoid 10% or 20% or more of boss attack... (some people wants fight doing 10 min instead of 6 min right? yes, so they make the fight far easier!)
Without parser or you kick, or you have people that have this high efficiency gameplay, but far less players. making a bigger gap between players in the same community
With having the combat tracker ingame, he can directly decide what it can show or not show...
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You can continue to say what you say. You won't be able to prove your perspective is correct.
Steven has professional game designers with decades of MMORPG experience on his team.
If they can't convince him, you can't.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
But, yeah, Steven is fine with a combat log and will be against parsers if they provide advanced features that are in ACT, like time alerts.
And i am ok with it... in fact i approve i hate boss modes. even in the act ways where the player have to create it itself after fighting the boss (and so, before having alerts, players have to understand the fight)
The funny thing with this is that literally the only thing ACT does is allow you to set a timer.
You can define the start of the timer as being when a specific effect is triggered (start the timer when you receive damage from a specific ability, as an example). But the player using ACT needs to set how long the timer will count down before sounding, meaning you need to already know the encounter before you can even set the timer.
The thing about this that is most amusing is that literally within a week of EQ launching, people were using actual, literal stopwatches to time abilities on mobs. It is literally just an extension of what was happening all the way back then.
And further, even more amusing to say that it is something Steven doesn't want, all a developer needs to do to make stopwatches (and thus ACT's timer) completely worthless is to not use time as a trigger for abilities.
You can't accurately time something that is irregular.
You can continue to say what you say. You won't be able to prove your perspective is correct.
Steven has professional game designers with decades of MMORPG experience on his team.
If they can't convince him, you can't.
We can be correct and unable to convince him... If he doesn't want to be convinced, or don't care the opinion, don't care about the proof and fact we give, yes, we won't be able to convince him.
i just hope he will chose to listen the path of wisdom about this subject. and at least gives real argument and not false one.
he has a big, really big misconception around DPSmeter/combat tracker/parsers. This is a big problem... for the PvE... and if he manage to ban any user of third party combat tracker, this will be a big problem for hardcore community.
It is not innocent that on FFXIV there is not any DPSmeter, third party program are forbidden, but there is a tolerance around ACT. Naoki Yoshida knows without allowing this, he would lose most of hardcore community...
And further, even more amusing to say that it is something Steven doesn't want, all a developer needs to do to make stopwatches (and thus ACT's timer) completely worthless is to not use time as a trigger for abilities.
You can't accurately time something that is irregular.
Yes, there are numerous way to avoid timer to be usefull.
You can continue to say what you say. You won't be able to prove your perspective is correct.
Steven has professional game designers with decades of MMORPG experience on his team.
If they can't convince him, you can't.
Steven can't be convinced by people he is not listening to.
Again, this is why we should be worried - Steven doesn't know what he is talking about, and is refusing to listen to people that do.
The wiki does not agree with you.
Quick Google search shows people commonly using parser/dps meter/dps parser interchangeably.
quick google search can get you to detailed explanations on why earth is flat
Like really you want to use searching trend terms as an argument that dps meter is uqual to parser
The best example is from actully the first iron man movie when on the end the character Tony Stark says that it is funny they call him an Iron man, because the suit is made from steel-nickel-titanium alloy
people rarely call things on what they actually are, but what is the most convenient name for them to use @Dygz it is painfully clear that you've got no personal input into the discussion, you are capable only to recite what Steven has in some of his posts/quotes and when we are talking about the properties of the topic you've got no clue on what is talked about so you default to disbanding the discussion for having no purpose because it is Steven's decision
Comments
If the boss is designed in such a way that the player will die because of perhaps a reversed logic mechanic (9/10 fights kill the adds but this one the adds explode and oneshots you) then hell yeah! Let the player die since it's the intended experience for the fight.
I am of course not talking about a 100-man raid on supremeOverLordOfDoom difficulty
"Would you like the boss explained?" "Would you like tips for your class?"
"Can somebody explain this for me?" "Can somebody give me tips for my class?"
Would also resolve things, but yes in the perfect world you would be able to stick with likeminded people all of the time.
Yes let's return to the DPS thread
If you are joining a raid that has the purpose of killing content, then expect the boss to be explained to you. If you do not wish the boss to be explained to you, do not join a raid that has the express goal of killing that boss as quickly as they can.
Likewise, with your class/build, if you group up with people that want to be as efficient as they can be, expect them to give you some 'suggestions'. If you do not want those suggestions, stick to playing with people that are not concerned with being as fast as possible.
That is how these things are resolved.
Not that you can read this, but hey, someone may quote this for you.
A log is literally just a text file of data.
A tracker takes the information from that log and displays it better for players to understand - in a way where all of it can be seen at once, as opposed to being literal tens of thousands of lines of text.
Quite honestly though, not knowing the difference between these two things should disqualify you from taking part in the discussion.
tracker is a tool that reads the data to give them to you in a more understandable format
― Plato
Yes and as i've said previously, i agree!
Yikes, get out of here with that mindset
Sure, throw in an opinion, but be prepared to be told why your opinion is invalid - and yes, opinions can be wrong. If I said my opinion on electric cars is that they shouldn't exist because it is so much more dangerous for people to fly around in the air than it is on the ground, then clearly my assumption of what an electric car is off, and thus my opinion on them is completely invalid.
Not knowing the difference between a log and a tracker means the person in question simply doesn't have the base level understanding of combat trackers to properly take part in a debate on them - and as has been proven, that persons opinion on trackers is built on a similar false assumption to the above example about electric cars - as is Stevens.
He has a point though - endlessly repeating parts of Steven's opinion as gospel not adding to it his own perspective except "I agree with Steven" and at the same time not even knowing what we are even talking about, because all he thinks about is elitism of a dps placing on a leaderboard (tbf quite funny since we know for sure there are going to be leaderboards for raids/dungeons)
― Plato
(yes in french, just screen it : "Your [spellname] inflicts damages to training dummy [value and type of damages]")
and this is what a combat tracker (or parser) shows (took random screenshot on google)
The DPS of each people in the party/raid (numbers are total damages, DPS, part of the whole raid DPS)
or what each of your spells did as damages during the whole fight (total amount of damage of the spell, part it does of my total damages) :
Parser mostly just "read" what combat log says, and transform this in statistic, graphs, etc.
This is why parser can't says how to kill a boss, they just says "you are dead from this attack, and before it you took damage from this" and they say it because the combat log already say it.
What trigger this attack, this add spawn, this phase-change, the parser will always be unable to say it. it is not its work, its work is just to transform a log with hundreds or evne thousands of line into statistics, and graphs. far easier to read
Then what are we talking about? I take it we're primarily discussing DPS Meter which the thread is about.
this night, the discussion was full of proof that Dygz don't know anything about the subject. and this message from him is another one.
Saying that parser/combat tracker allow to do things they can't do. . . (and anyone who used parser knows they can't do such thing like "saying how to kill the boss")
So while it is quite harsh and a bad mentality. i can't blame nooani. . .
Also DPSmeter is used to refer to "combat tracker" DPSmeter is one part of "combat tracker" there is also "healtracker" (giving Heal per Second, and Heal per Mana) interrupt tracker (count of interrupt), cc, damage taken, etc.
Parser is also another word to speak about it
But then we're moving into the territory of a complete combat tracker. I'm aware there's loads of things to track for a fight besides damage but to be on-topic for the thread let's primarily discuss the DPS meter part of the combat tracker.
I've seen what a complete combat tracker is capable of tracking when i played WoW, it would require a whole thread of it's own to discuss the complete tool.
We have some people here claiming that DPS meter is the same thing as a combat tracker.
But combat tracker can't be the same thing as a combat log?
ACT is an Advanced Combat Tracker. What was the basic combat tracker? How does a combat log not track combat data?
And people complain about me arguing semantics.
The wiki states: "We will be providing combat data for individual players in their chat window, that players can filter and analyze for themselves. The goal is to mitigate and make the practice less prevalent through the ease that DPS meters provide. Also to place actionable enforcement for players who attempt to circumvent the decision by use of 3rd party programs, for which we will be monitoring."
From the standpoint of the wiki - expect combat tracker v combat log to be a matter of semantics.
The wiki states: "The developers believe that parsers (DPS meters) can have negative effects."
So... parsers = DPS meters.
But, just because the wiki lists the combat data quote under combat logs does not necessarily mean that there won't be any parsing available at all.
The quote says that players will be able to filter - which seems different than the most rudimentary combat log.
But, yeah, Steven is fine with a personal combat log and will be against parsers if they provide advanced features that are in ACT, like time alerts.
Steven really doesn't even want us to have numbers in health bars. Rather, he wants us to pay attention to the decay of the nameplates. So expect the level of detailed info in the combat data to be basic rather than advanced.
In Ashes, expect fewer people to defeat a boss like Vaelastrasz with just a 40-person raid.
Steven believes, "things should be hard, people should fail, the bitter taste of defeat is what makes success that much more rewarding."
It might take more than a 40-person raid to defeat such a dragon.
Hardcore raids in Ashes may not be as hardcore as they are in other MMORPGs, just as casual in Ashes may not be as casual as it is in other MMORPGs.
How we go about defeating world bosses in Ashes, as an in-game community, may be very different than in previous MMORPGs.
Steven wrote: "Hello friends! I love reading all of the comments and opinions here. There was also a very large thread on dps meters, a little while back, where I felt Noaani articulated the position in favor of DPS meters very well.
My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed."
So, again... Steven is aware of the opposing arguments. He just doesn't agree.
Primarily, yes. Or more specifically, combat trackers
However, the poster in question doesn't understand the difference between a combat tracker (like ACT) and a combat assistant (like DBM), and thinks they are one and the same.
This is why my analogy about someone thinking electric cars were flying cars is somewhat appropriate (as far as analogies go). A combat assistant can also be a combat tracker, just as a flying car could also be electric. However, a combat tracker can only ever be a combat assistant if the person that made the combat tracker specifically made it to be one - just as an electric car could only be a flying car if the person that made the electric car specifically made it to also be a flying car.
Since the major suggestion in this thread (it's a long thread, I don't expect you to have read it - but the poster in question has) is for Intrepid to build in a combat tracker in to the games client.
As such, since Intrepid would be making the combat tracker, they can simply make it not function as a combat assistant at all - just as Teslas don't fly.
However, since the poster in question simply can not (or perhaps refuses to) get his head around that simple concept, imo he has no place in this discussion.
For example it can be a guild perk for guild raids or any other solution that was proposed here earlier.
Thing is that completely making trackers impossible to create is just not possible if the game will show you actions that you do (that you casted something etc) and actions that were done to you (like you're stunned, you've been hit etc)
The funniest thing is that even if tooltips dont show damage values and the popups say "you did unknown damage" then you still have methods to extract damage values through various methods
like:
then use the weakest ability to extract possible variation for the damage values and possible health variations of the mob
repeat this a ton of times so you can then use the data to create the possible effective health (which is both armor and hp in one value) and damage range values
from there change the type of mob you're testing to get more data sets
the more data sets you get the more precise values you can get to
given enough time and manpower for testing you eventually extract true game values and mob stats
unless of course the devs secretly rebalance the values often to throw the testers off
― Plato
Logs are the raw data used by combat trackers, combat assistants and DPS meters.
DPS meters are meters for measuring DPS, using information from the log.
Combat tracker is a tool that tracks all combat, using information from the log.
Combat assistants are tools that take information from the log and use it to assist players in encounters in more specific ways than just providing information.
Again, all a combat tracker and DPS meter can do is display information from the log in an easier to read format.
One of the methods I heard about being used was a developer working on the game basically put the tracker on the server, rather than relying on client computers to do it.
Anyone that knew how to get it was then able to get all data from all combat around them straight to a log file, that could then be parsed using ACT. Since there was no unusual interaction with the game client, there was no way for it to be noticed. No one ever even thought to look at the data going from the server to the client.
This was a fairly major game, as well.
This is not a method that anyone I am aware of is attempting with Ashes, but honestly only because it isn't deemed necessary.
I said it last year, and the year before, people that want to track combat will have that data, and no game developer or publish will stop us.
As long as you allow the game to be unrestrictably streamable and at the same to not have quite advanced detection of programs that you run on your setup then you make it really easy to have a game capture being analysed by a tracker. Which is quite frankly very easy to setup for almost anyone, because it would be just about running a screencapture program and the tracker at the same time to have live data even as a discord like overlay when playing
I would very much love for them to focus on fighting cheaters instead
― Plato
"A parser is a compiler or interpreter component that breaks data into smaller elements for easy translation into another language"
The combat tracker takes the information from the combat log via a parser and displays it. DPS meter is a component with in the combat tracker that only display the damaged done per second.
So, parser =/= DPS meters
Indeed, like there is absolutely nothing they can do to prevent you from doing that unless they find out who you are and give you an id ban (which means as soon as they find you own an account then it is immediate permaban of that account) and even then there are ways for you to go around that
What I'm talking about is that unless they plan to restrict streaming then using a tracker will be super easy and accessible
― Plato
This is how I parsed Stevens combat from a YouTube video.
I didn't quite have it real time - but I also did it myself (using GitHub), and I am no software developer.
As a point to Dygz final comment in that post - the argument that Steven doesn't know the difference between a combat tracker and a combat assistant didn't come up until after that post. He wrote what he said in reference to my argument under the assumption that a combat tracker was a combat assistant - as far as I am aware this is still his mistaken assumption.
Data = combat log.
If you want the difference between log and tracker, go to my message with screenshot, you will understand why it is far better to have a tracker and not log... because i have really hard time to analyse hundreds of data without a tool...
And i am ok with it... in fact i approve i hate boss modes. even in the act ways where the player have to create it itself after fighting the boss (and so, before having alerts, players have to understand the fight)
Not seeing healthbar of ennemy is a common thing in MMORPG, even back in the "good old days where MMORPG were great" ... those days when there was already parsers. and is still a thing today.
There is even BDO where you don't have combat bar if you don't learn some knwoledge about the mobs...
And for combat data : "[spell name] does [damages] to [target]" this is what all combat log does, and you can't do less basic than this.
*
Number of people needed =/= difficulty... Really.
He wants thing hard ? yes, i wait for him and his team to produce boss fight really hard.
But i don't thing the content will be so hard with how false he is about end game PvE in his thought about DPSmeter.
And i will continue to say his point of vue is based over false informations, i can prove it to him if he wants.
and so, his opinion, can be the one that count, remains not accurate at all.
And because he doesn't want at all third party program
Because he wants hard content (it exists nowhere there isnt a decent use of any kind of parser)
because he wants at most not having the "combat assistant"
he really should add ingame combat tracker :
People won't try to go third party program (and it is forbidden in many games, and games never know when player uses it.) Also, many from hardcore community would jsut leave if they are banned for using an external parser. (so lower the level of the whole community )
It will allow all people to master their class, give high DPS, so fight will be focused even more around boss mechanics. Why ? if you consider people will have 95% efficiency, you can set the stats of the boss high enough to avoid people to zerg the boss life so fast that it makes the fight far more easy... because it is what happens in some bosses on other game : they were set for lower DPS player (lower stuff, or devs considered player would'nt be as good) and some team just burn boss life so fast they avoid 10% or 20% or more of boss attack... (some people wants fight doing 10 min instead of 6 min right? yes, so they make the fight far easier!)
Without parser or you kick, or you have people that have this high efficiency gameplay, but far less players. making a bigger gap between players in the same community
With having the combat tracker ingame, he can directly decide what it can show or not show...
Steven has professional game designers with decades of MMORPG experience on his team.
If they can't convince him, you can't.
Quick Google search shows people commonly using parser/dps meter/dps parser interchangeably.
You can define the start of the timer as being when a specific effect is triggered (start the timer when you receive damage from a specific ability, as an example). But the player using ACT needs to set how long the timer will count down before sounding, meaning you need to already know the encounter before you can even set the timer.
The thing about this that is most amusing is that literally within a week of EQ launching, people were using actual, literal stopwatches to time abilities on mobs. It is literally just an extension of what was happening all the way back then.
And further, even more amusing to say that it is something Steven doesn't want, all a developer needs to do to make stopwatches (and thus ACT's timer) completely worthless is to not use time as a trigger for abilities.
You can't accurately time something that is irregular.
We can be correct and unable to convince him... If he doesn't want to be convinced, or don't care the opinion, don't care about the proof and fact we give, yes, we won't be able to convince him.
i just hope he will chose to listen the path of wisdom about this subject. and at least gives real argument and not false one.
he has a big, really big misconception around DPSmeter/combat tracker/parsers. This is a big problem... for the PvE... and if he manage to ban any user of third party combat tracker, this will be a big problem for hardcore community.
It is not innocent that on FFXIV there is not any DPSmeter, third party program are forbidden, but there is a tolerance around ACT. Naoki Yoshida knows without allowing this, he would lose most of hardcore community...
Yes, there are numerous way to avoid timer to be usefull.
Steven can't be convinced by people he is not listening to.
Again, this is why we should be worried - Steven doesn't know what he is talking about, and is refusing to listen to people that do.
Because wikis are aways correct.
A parser is any tool that scans data for any reason. When you ctrl+f a document or web page to find s specific word, that is a parser.
ACT is also a parser, it scans data in order to create tables and charts.
quick google search can get you to detailed explanations on why earth is flat
Like really you want to use searching trend terms as an argument that dps meter is uqual to parser
The best example is from actully the first iron man movie when on the end the character Tony Stark says that it is funny they call him an Iron man, because the suit is made from steel-nickel-titanium alloy
people rarely call things on what they actually are, but what is the most convenient name for them to use
@Dygz it is painfully clear that you've got no personal input into the discussion, you are capable only to recite what Steven has in some of his posts/quotes and when we are talking about the properties of the topic you've got no clue on what is talked about so you default to disbanding the discussion for having no purpose because it is Steven's decision
― Plato