Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Your augments change how the group works together.
So... we should not be relying on a combat tracker to try to find THE meta.
Rather we should be paying attention the augments and Weapon Skills our team mates are using so that we can synergize and stack those effects.
We shouldn't just be using a personal combat tracker just to improve our individual tactics, rather we should be paying attention to the tactics of our team mates to see how they play and how we can support their play.
How Hallowed Ground is deployed should be different based on whether it's a Shadow Disciple, a Scryer or an Oracle. And team mates should be paying attention to the different buffs they can get while standing in Hallowed Ground based on whether it was dropped down by a Shadow Disciple, a Scryer or an Oracle.
There are 4 Schools of augments for each Secondary Archetype and, as far as we know, we can switch augments in-between battles - we don't have to be in a town/city to do so.
Which means, after a wipe, it might be decided that a High Priest's Hallowed Ground augment should be from the Death School rather than from the Life School (could be one of the other two Schools I just don't know what those are).
We can do all of that without relying on a combat tracker.
The way RPGs are supposed to work is that you learn how to use the abilities you've chosen to best work with the abilities of the people around you. Rather than have other people tell you what your build should be for the meta based on their combat tracking tool.
You do need to build in a way that the structure doesn't fall down.
That doesn't mean that there is only one way to accomplish that.
That doesn't mean that a PC is necessary to parse the data to do so.
Also doesn't mean it has to be the meta or a speed run.
We players know next to nothing about the actual realisation of the raids... and yet some people want to argue that we must have combat trackers.
Just as some people argue that we need separate PvE-Only servers.
I don't know what type of top end raid groups you've been taking part of but too me that sounds fairly casual & normal. Of course time must be respected as in between time A and B your full attention is required for the content which you signed up for, but this goes for the whole group and not just the raid leader.
If all is done correctly every player should have a full picture on how the group is going to tackle the raid. How many days/week, which days & how many hours per session. This should give everyone the idea whether they have the time for it or not.
Your constant attacks on others views goes to show how you would use a combat tracker in what you refer to as a 'toxic manner'. You can't even read someones post because it doesn't fit your *required* form posting format. A combat tracker DOES show you everything in a fight, stop trying to hide this by obfuscating with one portion of a combat tracker saying, "DPS can't tell you what to do". Of course not, but seeing what damage/abilities the boss uses, the time intervals between them, the spikes of damage, the down-time. All of these metrics can be collected automatically without the raid having to pay attention to anything, just spam heals and live. Then, the entire fight is mapped out and simplified. This doesn't make content more engaging. It makes it a spreadsheet battle that you then try to perfect in game. It's not organic, it's not fun, and it's not cooperative. You TELL people what to do or remove them if they wont, from your own words.
This game is about people, and interacting with them. Not Systems to best parse Data.
Also, it's pretty obvious you're in the Vocal minority, as you have filled this mega thread with the same nonsense. This mega thread should be removed/locked imho because it's gone in circles.
false
there was combat tracker for everquest.
So this statement is false. Except if you limit "good old days" to Ultima Online (the commonly considered first MMORPG) . . . "in 1997 and 1998, before everquest came and ruined the genre, we didnt have combat tracker, it was good" ... but if you go in such speak, you just get totally ridiculous.
And one of the most used combat tracker today is 16 years old, from 2005...
So, what about try to think a little by yourself instead of repeating statement that was proven false ?
I debunked the WHOLE quote you just did, in this topic... i did 2 post, which prove, with objectiv proofs, this quote if totally false.
If you are unable to find other argument than a false quote... just, you should stop speaking about a subject you know nothing about. You just act like flat earther
Funny how you are right... and you put there an argument pro-combat-tracker . . .
HOW can you know the best way to synergies without test, measure, and data analysis? . . .
Casual and Hardcore... there is no objectiv rule that define one or the other.
Personnaly i would say it is around the 20h time a week. Over it you are on hardcore side. AND i KNOW this is clearly not a perfect way to define it.
but, it sounds "casual" if you forget that on hardcore side, he won't stop to "ok, lets kill this raid 1 time a week" no... ... ... Ok on wow / FFXIV it is this because those are totally casual games.
The period i was the most invovled in heavy hardcore was WOTLK, when there was new raid, we were around 5 night a week, 3h30 raid each night. and when we killed last boss (in hardmode because WOTLK...) we aimed to reduce to 2 night a week asap. (and even to 1 night a week). I speak about official guild run. some continued to log in everynight, doing other stuff (reroll, some like me had one in more casual guild i helped, guided thru raid to help them to learn the game, the bosses for example.) Or even playing other game because WoW was not the only good game on the market. in WOTLK i discovered and loved Aion. 2010 got wonderfull game like fallout new vegas, red dead redemption, or Mass effect 2
Because we wanted to not have to chose between out of the game life and in game life, we just did all we could to clean content each week as fast as possible.
Hardcore or casual gets also IRL life, and while the myth of hardcore is close to the "nolifer" the reality is "nolifer" is part of the hardcore...
Now looking at Ashes of Creation : PvE will be a part of the game, a usefull part for what i think will be the main dishes : PvP conflicts. Caravans, castle siege, node siege, guild wars.
The more a guild spend time in PvE, the less the same guild can spend time to do other part to prepare those PvP conflicts. (consumable... even more because they are used in pvE also, etc) so, the less the guild will be efficient in those conflict. So reduce PvE time ? getting less reward, less stuff, less efficient. Solution : increase the global "farm per hour". this include "cleaning raids content as fast as possible" ...
In totally casual games like WoW/FFXIV, hardcore try to go asap just to enjoy different thing in video games/real life.
In hardcore game, same, but also to be in as much content as possible...
And so come back to combat tracker : some guild will be able to get those 'all faster". A combat tracker will help more people to do it. making the game more balance between all player.
As i said, the most hardcore will spend time needed out of game to reach the perfect rotation, the perfect build. the "2nd" rank hardcore player will try their best, without spending time about calculations... so there will be a real gap between this 2 group. I have nothing against being weak against another guild. But i am not sure it will be good for a game to have 1 or 2 guild per server dominating the others . . . Would be better to have a strong guild, but that can be in danger because even if weaker, the gap of power is short
On RPG, don't need combat tracker, because calculation are easy... do also lot of pen&paper RPG and all my characters are optimized, like i does with the help of combat tracker in MMORPG... But this is were you are unable to understand...
There is 3 situation
1) formula are global, easy to use. FFXIV, WoW vanilla / BC are on this side. It is also pen&paper RPG. And most MMORPG from "old good days"
The bonus the buffs gives are clearly shown. and anyplayer could easily see what are the stronghest skill, calculate their DPS.
Those was simple system because even for dev side you have a simple thing that works for all. The main flaw is "nearly impossible to balance classes" but old MMORPG didn't care about balance
Formula on wow was simple for direct spell : base damage + spellpower x casttime/3,5
In FFXIV we have the potency of each skills, the system is build a such way that soft/hardcap are not such a big thing to find the best DPS avaible. You won't have exact values, but atleast you know how to do your best
In this one, you can theorycraft and get close to the real meta. You know what is the "perfect DPS" on training dummy and how to have it.
There is one problem : real fight, with moving, target switch, etc. you need a combat tracker to know how to fully optimize in real fight... Mathematic way can do the work, but calculation becomes far harder...
2) Chaotic formula (WoW retail) but with combat tracker. The base formula is the same, but there is more hidden variable
Here even to see the best DPS avaible on dummy, a parser is useful because each spell has its own damage calculation. It is easier to balance for devs but harder for player to find the meta without parser even on dummy
3) mathematic hard to do AND no combat tracker :
You are just fucked up. Devs hate you.
Maybe, Steven will fit totally the "old good days" and do simple skill damage/heal calculation, and give us the 1 situation without combat tracker. it would be "bad but not so"... but lets be honest, i don't think he will do like those "old good days when MMORPG were great". He feels like he doesnt want player to be able to even do calculations and measures. so we will probably go on 3rd situation.
It is a decent bet to consider what are common to ALL MMORPG
It is not impossible that for AoC, they do it a way NO OTHER mmorpg did making finally the DPS meaningless (the only situation combat tracker wouldn't be needed)... i would be surprised, really...
Combat tracker don't show strategy... else you consider that the boss strategy are mainly about tank + heal + damages... ... sad you never did good bosses with deep strategy... because the best boss i fought, the mechanics making it so good were never shown on any parser... (sanity from yog, the teleport from twins emperor, the valkyr/profanate from arthas, the frostmourn mechanic also. the 6 ice area on anubarak, etc)
Again, it is funny how it is totally different from what i saw... Hardcore guild were more about speaking to each other the tool they had to get rid of a problem in the fight. (even more about problem outside of "tank/heal/DPS not enough) and when i helped casual guild, they were more about just... retry without speaking untill it became 100% obvious they had to speak... (mostly because i said "what about find solution to [problem]
And again "toxicity". it reminds me a topic on FFXIV, where the anti - parser was just explaining how toxic this tool was, to, in the end, being called the toxic guy by many people... who didnt say anything pro parser... but just read the topic and realised that pro parser just wanted to be carried and had no care about other players investment... but yes, continue.
I remove people that come in a raid with far less comitment that what all other people of the raid has...
BUT i also kick people with to high expectation (so far more comitment that all other people in the raid).
Because, while you consider that all people can go any raid (and so encourage toxicity between players), i consider that each one can find its place where people is in the same mindset they have (and so encourage harmony between players)
If the DPS is a thing => wanting to improve DPS will be a thing for reason i said in this topic => combat tracker will be needed.
Want combat tracker not needed ? make DPS meaningless.
The main argument seems so "people have to comunicate to win fight"... which is the case even with people with parser. due to many things that parser don't say, or don't show what to do, how to do, how raid can coordinate to do this as clean as possible (cf all example of previous post from some wow bosses)
But there is 1 thing that can make the communication useless : strategy guide...
So because you consider parser is bad because it reduces the communication between people. We have also to forbid any kind of "read this strategy guide before going in the raid" right ?
A strategy guide tells everyone, exactly what to do, step by step, it gives timing for everything, it gives how the whole raid have to move for specific moment of the raid, etc etc. So, it is far worse than any kind of combat tracker...
While i am pro combat-tracker, personally, i went from "strategy guide are good" to "NOPE"... the more i helped casual raids, the more i felt that strategy guide was a problem for such guilds. The strategy guide became a "homework" for them, spoiling the content, cutting any need to communication inside the raid, and worst of all : people never improved. they managed try after try to progress untill the death of the boss, but they didnt learn anything. they just "followed strategy". I saw far better results when i forbid totally people to read strategy guide, and made them part of the learning :
1 try => wipe => let them identify what happened => find solution. I spoke only for a more detailed explanation and solution, but first the aim was to be sure they understood the fight itself and not strategy.
On the other side, yes i saw people kicked because combat tracker show them low damages (and they really were...) i also saw some kick on this way but far more abusiv (the people was low among the raid, but it remains really fine, enough to kill boss).
But i saw far more people kicked for "not knowing strategy" with the "reading strategy takes 5 minutes on google". I have to confess, i was on this mind originally... fast realised how stupid i was...
Just to be sure that people against parser for this "communication" reason are also against any form of strategy guide that are even worst about it
You didn't debunk shit.
You are just repeating the same bs. And, of course, it's not convincing me any more than what I've said convinces you.
Pretty sure Ashes is not going to provide a strategy guide for metas and speed runs.
So again, things that exist for more than 20 years now won't exist in ashes ? ...
Steven aim to ban people with parser... but you think he will ban people who will write any guide?
And i know i didnt convicne you, because you are too deep in this religion. no fact could prove you are wrong... And i continue to wait the proof what steven says is true. you just quote him, but any proof to prove this quote is true?
the most factual of the long list of fact i gave : "back in days when MMO were grea, there wasn't DPS meter" => 2005, year of birth of ACT, maybe the most used parser nowadays. so back in days where mmo were great, DPS meter did exist. then, i proved that combat tracker didnt show how to kill boss (even with graphs for when there is damages from bosses, because most of strategies are outside of the simple "you will take X damage")...
I am quite sure that he will not include a strategy guide in the game and that he will not publish a strategy guide for metas and speed runs.
Nobody has stated that combat trackers show how to kill a boss. That, again, is your misinterpretation of what Steven said. Nor did Steven claim that DPS meters never existed at all "back in the day".
For one thing, for Steven "back in the day" is before 2005.
But, also, he's saying the devs did not provide them... and he would have preferred that MMORPGs did not allow those types of add-ons.
The question is if people agaisnt parser for the reason "cut communication between people" are also against strategy guide for the same reason.
No MMORPG i know did publish any strategy guide... so never spoke about "official" one. Would be the silliest thing ever. ruining all the devs work... dropping from 200+ wipe to...30... or even less ^^'
So again the question, what about strategy guides ? Which are source of toxicity (don't know strat? kick) and replace players communication (read strategy, apply it, shut up)
I'm torn on the subject - and both pro and against have to do with getting difficulty right. I will use Wow as the example here because its a game many are rather familiar with, and it's by far the (mmo, damn you dota) game I've spent the most hours in.
To preface I live for difficult encounters. I want an encounter to kick me in the teeth, pick me up, piledrive me into the floor and then walk over the gooey puddle that's left of me.
Because when that bastard finally eats dust themselves, well nothing tops that feeling.
why it could be great
So THE largest issue with PvE encounters as far as I'm concerned is the Addon DBM and WeakAuras. These tools are so incredibly powerful that they negate a significant portion of an encounter by giving you perfect information ahead of time.
X ability in Y seconds
C happened move to D
You have F on you make sure no player is in this circle we popped up on your screen.
And even if you dislike them you're at such a severe disadvantage for not using it that it's hard to justify if you care about results.
There's also avoiding Johnny Thunderclock constantly posting the dps meters after blowing every single CD on a trash mob which honestly is a great argument.
If severely limiting what add ons can do to not allow the ones that collects excessive data about bosses also means no dps meter that's a phenomenal trade-off as far as I'm concerned.
Yed I know dps meter restriction doesn't necessitate other add ons being restricted but I took the opportunity to preach.
why it can be an issue
So on the wow classic subreddit someone posted their logs of a raid they were unable to clear and asked for assistance. (logs being every encounter in the raid combat logged to be reviewed later) these are some things that stood out.
Out of 10 people 3 of them averaged about one ability every 10 seconds.
One spent two minutes alternating between two different debuffs that doesn't stack
Over half of them didn't use their full arsenal but instead just an ability or two.
We clear that raid in just over an hour.
Now I'm not pointing this out to be an asshole, I'm doing it showcase the massive difference between some players because a not insignificant portion of the MMO playerbase sits on a decade or two of experiences, while others come in entirely fresh.
Without metrics of some kind it becomes harder to identify like minded players and form your guilds around this.
Could this exclude players? Well yes.
But that's the point of a guild isn't it, to have a community of people with similar goals.
"Go X archetype or bust"
No.
with a class system as diverse as AoC's that should be utilized, not minimized.
How this is achieved I don't know, I leave that to more brilliant minds.
About other addon : i love addons in wow, but there is some i really hate they exist (DBM-bigwigs or large part of what allow weak aura are top on my list, and not even alone...)
On this topic, no one defend "addons" and even less those kind of addon, and i will be totally against anykind of request close to those in AoC.
This topic remains around combat tracker. (so, in wow : recount, skada, details or tinyDPS) and no other.
About the people a little to fanatic about their big d...PS, just a combattracker without any button to link it in chat... in fact, i never liked them, was nearly never usefull to link the results in chat : people who wants to know already had one... (and those "can anyone link my DPS" i think most of time was just a way to anyone else showing "how good they are" ... useless )
If someone doesnt respect their own opinion enough to follow a millenia old standard designed for the purpose of making text easier to read, why should I respect their opinion enough to read it?
And yes, this does show how I would use a combat tracker. Those who respect others time are welcome, and get my respect back (your post was presented in a manner that showed you respect your own opinion, as such, you receive a reply that reflects that same respect). Thise who do not respect the time of others (dont use a combat tracker for personal improvement) dont get anything from me - including a guild invitation.
Now, some people may consider that toxic. However, in ky decades of experience running raids, toxicity only happens when you attempt to combine people that respect others time with people that dont respect others time. If you have a raid fun of people with that respect, everyone is on the same wavelength, and has the same goals.
There is no room left for toxicity in such an environment. All that is left is helping each other be as good as we can each be, so that we are as good as we can collectively be.
The key to this being successful is in not suffering through people that waste time. Wasting 5 minutes of time on a 40 player raid is to waste almost an hour and a half of player/time. Not acceptable.
As to your point about hoping Steven keeps to his word, I do too. Assuming, by keeping to his word, we are talking about when he said that Ashes will have difficult raids, that are only able to be completed by a single digit percent of players.
If he sticks to his word there, then the game will be suitable for players like me.
I assume you are talking about secondary class here.
The best way to make all of them viable is to have a detailed combat tracker so that players can show that every build that is viable, is indeed viable.
Without this proof, players will use trial and error to work out what builds do work, and will then require those. Since they are known to work, people will be reluctant to go with anything not known to work.
If that combat tracker is there to show objective data on builds, the only way a build wont be viable is if Intrepid screwed the build up and made it not viable. In this case, we can use data collected from combat trackers to show Intrepid, and out together a case for fixing it.
And I agree with you in regards to things like DBM. However, in order for something like that to exist, the developers need to add a lot to the games API, and the resulting program/addon is no longer a combat tracker, but a combat assistant.
The devs should not provide them and there should not be add-ons for them.
Just as there is not an in-game strategy guide.
So, you are against an in game strategy guide as it would hurt communication, but not against an out of game strategy guide that would do the same.
Yet, you are against an in game combat tracker as you think it would cut communication, and are also against an out of game one.
There is some hypocritical thinking in there.
(Which is very likely to happen - just schedule with 2-3 other guilds a time when all of your combined members just go on a rampage through all of your nearby nodes to oneshot all open world bosses/raids and have all of the crafting materials gathered from those divided between those guilds by prenegotiated rules
All we see currently is pointing only one way - if you have problems with a boss gather more players to make those problems irrelevant
So the "single digit percentage" of players that can defeat the hardest encounters is a matter of opportunity and not a matter of difficulty
I know what they said about their "designs" and "goals", however we have not seen a single thing in the alpha that is supporting the design goal of raids being hard by execution
― Plato
I hope they do as well.
If not, I would consider taking a little over 1k players to a raid spawn and killing it. Then, since the server capacity is only 10k, we have killed a single boss spawn with a double digit percent of the servers population.
The way it is going, it does seem more likely that a double digit percentage of online players on a server would be involved in a raid kill than how likely the notion of only a single digit percentage of players being involved in top end raiding is.
Daredevil is not a meta subclass to be playing with the melee train.
Because of this I always got thrown in the party of rangers even though it can't function there.
DPS meters allowed some commanders to see it wasn't useless and started give me proper parties.
Without DPS meters, people will just follow the meta and instead of being rejected or kicked out of groups for performance, you will be rejected or kicked for not being meta.
Keep quiet - your personal experience of a meter helping you to defy meta is a direct contradiction to their dogma!!
― Plato
The TLDR is that it is Yoshi-p explaining that he really only bans people using meters when it leads to harassment. I would not be surprised if the conversation went the same way point for point. It is only a 6-minute-long video, but in that time expresses both sides of many of the arguments from this thread and then explains why his official stance is "No" to DPS meters, but he is not going to ban people for using them.
To me, it is the most rational and obvious way to handle this sort of situation. I encourage anyone participating in this thread to check it out.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
However, this is a result of the idea that in both games, you don't really need other players as much as you will in Ashes, or do in a game like Archeage.
Once again, this seems to be the crux of the issue. If developers build games where players need others, then they don't need to concern themselves with whether or not players will treat each other badly.
The issue with FFXIV's stance is that if I am in a group with someone, and I see they are not doing well at their role and offer to help them - even if I am not using a combat tracker - they can report me for harassment and the developers would likely ban me when all I wanted to do was help another player out.
While this may (debatably) be the right course for FFXIV, like any other decision in game design, you need to consider all other factors before making the call on what is right for your particular game. In the case of Ashes, the reason why the above may be the right call for FFXIV simply doesn't apply.
I am somewhat confused with what you are saying here.
Are you saying that you don't need other players as much in WOW or FFXIV?
That aside, it seems like you are saying that it is a self sorting problem that Devs don't need to worry about.
Since players need each other to accomplish things. That I agree with.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
In games like WoW and FFXIV you don't need other players - or at least not specific players. You can treat other players like trash all you want (WoW more so), and it will not come back on you at all.
In Ashes, at least as Steven described it, that won't be the case. If you start pissing off the people in your local node cluster, you will have a hard time finding groups.
This simple fact alters player behavior.
So, the more players need those around them in an MMO, the better they will treat those around them. The less they need them, the worse they will treat them.
If you make a game where players are likely to treat those around them fairly well, then you have no need to worry about players misusing tools like combat trackers.
Since the misuse in this regard was the only thing that was talked about as a reason to not want combat trackers in the video above, it should stand to reason that there is no longer any reason in a game where this reason doesn't hold true - which would be a game where players need each other and so treat those around them fairly well.
This is the point I have made in this thread in the past contrasting WoW, Archeage and EQ2. Games (and even specific situations within those games) where players need each other, they treat each other well. When they don't, they treat each other like trash.
so their solution of having performance evaluation based on a tracker being bannable offense is quite adequate for their game
― Plato
We don't need DPS meters to figure that out.
Yes that vid says the same thing Steven is saying - just Steven is stronger about the ban for third-party tools.
One of the key statements in the linked video was that they have no idea what is on our computers, and have no business in knowing.
*snip*[/quote]
As said by Noaani, the first problem with toxicity helped by parser is the general game design...
For those who didnt play FFXIV, there is a duty finder for nearly ALL content, all except the top hardest boss ("ultimate" fights) was 2 ultimate in stormblood, i think 2 also in Shadowbringer... for 2 years expansions... all other PvE content are duty finder (with a quite well built one for the hard content, where you say if you are learning, or want to go for the kill)
In fact, toxicity is higher in modern MMORPG than "in good old days" because there was many things, and mainly one "server reputation" ... With "megaservers" and DF, it disappeared, allowing people to be the worst jerk without suffering from it (until enough report lead to a ban... but for large part of toxicity. it doesn't happen)
Also, Yoshida knows his game is nothing without PvE competition. he CAN'T fully ban it even if he could. Um. You will be thrown into whatever your Primary Archetype is.
We don't need DPS meters to figure that out.[/quote]
This is the way you will play Ashes, not the way all HAVE TO play. If some want to play different way, they can, and not even steven can forbid this. Even more, a good RPG (MMO or not) is where you CAN try exotic things, like in a pen&paper RPG, and find some quite good even if it wasn't expected...
Stop saying people "how to play" ... Play what you want, recruit who you want, and let people do what they want (bonus : i will be on European servers, so you won't even have to deal with me pretending doing a good DPS or a decent tanking as sumoner
Oh he can be even more focus about his anti-cobmat tracker frenzy... FFXI was released in 2003, and 2005 in western, modding was forbidden, like ACT is (third party program) or modding in FFXIV. and reality ? they can't know who uses act, who mods their characters. . . If steven manage to do what a big company like SE never manage to do in now 18 years...
(SE, who said when they announced PC version for FFXV "go slow on mods guys" ... yes, asking PC gamer to go easy on mods, you are cute Nomura :') )
People can try to play against the design if they want to.
But, people playing for the meta will assign people based on Primary Archetype.
And, we won't need combat trackers to figure that out.