Greetings, glorious adventurers! If you're joining in our Alpha One spot testing, please follow the steps here to see all the latest test info on our forums and Discord!
Options
1 VS 1 really?
valerian
Member
After thinking about this for a long time, I asked myself why would Steven early on declare they won't balance 1 vs 1? It seems odd stating that when we know already from experience that in any mmropg the developers always start meddling into class metas by tweaking their abilities and so forth.
Before you know it, the community will be in up and arms about what's being Nerf and what's getting a buff? After investing for a year or two and find out that your class that your playing will either get Nerf or get a buff will create other players to respond? We've all been on this road before, so you might as well say class balance is just a natural part of an mmorpg development and we will strive to make it fair for everyone.
Because as soon as you start "balancing" class abilities, the 1 vs 1 argument falls apart because you might discover that your class might of gained a buff and now it's viable in combat whether it's 1 vs 1 or in group combat? Also, with the introduction of new gear sets that might make it into the game via expansions, you might find something that will compliment your abilities which you didn't have before and make your class a better competitor.
Also, when everyone reaches end game and are gearing themselves up to the best of what the game can offer regardless of metas, it's a very fine margin of a certain class being good only in groups but not 1 vs 1. From my experience, an mmorpg that I play, most players who have a good dual builds also are good in group PVP. And one of the reasons for that is because the game does not have specific gear for PVP vs PVE.
Another reason why people might start complaining is that a game like Ashes has open world PVP and arenas. So, does that mean the arenas will be limited for only group play like 2 vs 2 etc..? Also, the different PVP systems like siege and guild wars does not mean that you will always be in a group, you might end up defending yourself alone against another person when most of your buddies are resurrecting and on their way. Different scenarios can play out which will make your class equally important for group play and solo.
Before you know it, the community will be in up and arms about what's being Nerf and what's getting a buff? After investing for a year or two and find out that your class that your playing will either get Nerf or get a buff will create other players to respond? We've all been on this road before, so you might as well say class balance is just a natural part of an mmorpg development and we will strive to make it fair for everyone.
Because as soon as you start "balancing" class abilities, the 1 vs 1 argument falls apart because you might discover that your class might of gained a buff and now it's viable in combat whether it's 1 vs 1 or in group combat? Also, with the introduction of new gear sets that might make it into the game via expansions, you might find something that will compliment your abilities which you didn't have before and make your class a better competitor.
Also, when everyone reaches end game and are gearing themselves up to the best of what the game can offer regardless of metas, it's a very fine margin of a certain class being good only in groups but not 1 vs 1. From my experience, an mmorpg that I play, most players who have a good dual builds also are good in group PVP. And one of the reasons for that is because the game does not have specific gear for PVP vs PVE.
Another reason why people might start complaining is that a game like Ashes has open world PVP and arenas. So, does that mean the arenas will be limited for only group play like 2 vs 2 etc..? Also, the different PVP systems like siege and guild wars does not mean that you will always be in a group, you might end up defending yourself alone against another person when most of your buddies are resurrecting and on their way. Different scenarios can play out which will make your class equally important for group play and solo.
0
Comments
If your Bard gets popped by a Rogue who caught them without buffs up, that doesn’t mean Bard is weak or Rogue is overpowered.
If your Mage kites out a Tank and kills them, that doesn’t mean Mage needs less CC or Tank needs more gap closers.
Classes will have distinct and intended weaknesses. Classes will have distinct and intended strengths. That’s what it means to not balance around 1v1s.
As for “what if I’m alone”, well if the matchup is bad for you then you probably lose unless you outskill or outlevel the other player. If the matchup is good for you, then you probably win if the person doesn’t outskill or outlevel you. Ashes isn’t particularly a solo-friendly game, if you’ve noticed.
There are lots of assumptions there, overtime if they start balancing classes having in mind only for group game play then they will fall into the trap of making some classes better in 1 vs 1 un-intentionally. A good developer should have in mind for both types of gameplay.
For example, if the community demands to buff the gap closing and damage of a rogue because in a group setting the mages always easily nuke the rogues 1st and have no chance then that will also buff the rogue for 1 vs 1 because the game doesn't distinguish if your playing as a group or not?
Also, you mention that i noticed that ashes isn't particularly solo-friendly game and yet there is 1 vs 1 scenarios in any mmorpg you play. And there isn't alot of combat footage yet for the mmorpg and lots can change between now and then.
That's why you have secondary classes, diff armor types and sets, gear stats, and passives.
If you're playing a mage, why not take tank or fighter as your secondary to give you some defense to counteract rogue's burst dmg? You could even take cleric and focus on healing back your lost hp.
You could also wear heavy or medium armor, instead of light or cloth armor. Heavy armor is strong against physical damage and gives you more hp. This further reduces the burst potential of a rogue. (No info on medium armor yet)
You have 16 gear slots, use them wisely. There might be set bonuses that give you defensive/pseudo defensive effects.
Crafters that craft gear for you can determine the stats for that gear. Why not sacrifice some magic damage for some extra evasion/resistances?
And finally, we also have passive skills. You can invest skill points that you gain from leveling up into the following passive skills: Block, cloth armor, elemental, heavy armor, light armor, mana pool, medium armor and ranged passive. Why not invest some points into block and heavy armor/medium armor passives (depending on which one you choose to wear) to further mitigate burst damage?
You have ample of opportunities for counterplay. It just depends on how you build your character.
You can find more info here:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Skills#Passive_skills
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Armor
There will be match ups in 1v1s where one class will be superior to another; and that application should be a rock-paper-scissors dynamic. We want there to be counter-play between the different classes... Instead it's going to be a group focused balance, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present, that's going to be an equal level playing field. It's going to be very dependent on skill and strategy.[3] – Steven Sharif
So long as there isnt a class thats universally better than the others or isnt a dynamic of one or two classes ruling all others for pvp. The rock, paper, scissors dynamic works in theory.
But this is speculation until we see firsthand how strong the classes/archtypes are and how much the secondary archtypes affect the primary archtypes abilities
There will be other variables to like world skill lines, specific weapon/set synergies that we just wont know until we get to ingame testing
Even in a 1v1 scenario in the open world, keep in mind that it is open world pvp. So, you might think its just you and one person, but another (or group of people) will come along and kill you anyway. Doesn't matter how good you are as one person verses 8 people. The point of this statement is that the game isn't created for one verses one game play.
It’s not a problem to have hard counters and distinct class weaknesses/strengths. Balancing for the 1v1 just means you end up homogenizing every class.
The presence of potential situation where you fight 1v1 doesn’t mean anything about the game’s design philosophy. Ashes will support and reward group play; none of its planned features support or reward solo play. In many cases, it’s discouraged, such as with caravans.
I love the combination of large class number and group-focused balancing and content. One thing I LOVE to do in games is to go against the grain and see how much above my weight I can punch. Content not meant to be soloed? My Bard isn't meant to take on a Rogue? Hold my beer.
You make a good point by saying you can't make everyone happy, but in this case obviously Steven has completely ignored the 1 type of player which is the solo pvp'er. The solo pvp'er is a very large player base also in contrast to group PVP'ers. Given the fact that there are classes who are just going to dominate 1 vs 1 because there are no counter play for it, maybe they will pick up there pitch forks and knock on Steven's door.
The solo PvPer is not a group they’re trying to appeal to. Same as they aren’t trying to appeal to PvE-only players. Ashes will not cater to every type of player and that’s alright. People can decide if these gameplay aspects are ones they can live with or not.
As for this mythical “OP 1v1 class” that you think is going to beat everyone: There will always be something that beats it.
I'm a solo PVPr and I don't feel left out one bit. All my friends of 10+ years are also solo PVPrs and we are all KS backers. We love games where the game is stacked against us. In the event that we are over powered that 1 in a 100 win is so freaking satisfying. We also almost always have 2nd or even 3rd toons that are opposite to our mains. This is fun because it is our version of replay-ability. I have always hated balancing for 1v1. Steven and the team are not going to create a game based on the complaints and criticisms of individuals "who know whats best". Your pitch forks comment, even in jest, are becoming far to common. He and the AoC team have a clear vision and providing feedback AFTER testing has been done helps made educated decisions. They want proper tests to help them make better decisions that use their own system. They dont want to follow every other MMO and simply comply to the standard. I would much rather AoC sticks to their guns and make their vision and it fail then to change it by balancing (classes, towns, raids, and other content) which makes the game everything that has convinced me to leave other MMOs.
as i will create 1 of each of these classes heres hopping lol
I've theory crafted to a certain degree but until we know more about the game my theory crafting has stalled. My theory crafting has guided my decisions so far but there are gaps in information. I dont believe my theory crafting is infallible or complete.
Or, you take the chance and hope your skill on your rogue can overcome any hard-counter-ness of those classes. And if they end up killing you, well, maybe the next ranger or summoner you meet will suck a bit more.
We dont want:
Got 250vs250? No worries. It's just 250 1v1s.
Wouldn't sound exciting, interesting or good to me. Which is why I backed Ashes and appreciate the concepts.
That doesn't mean it's impossible for a knife-wielder to beat a sword, just that it's a lot harder. As long as you are aware of your weaknesses, like the inability to burst down heavy armor, you can start working out the tactics and maybe learn to overcome those disadvantages.
The way they've talked about gear, level, and class in PvP, I don't think it'll be this extreme; your skill will count and you can still win in these cases.
This.
I imagine it's going to be more along the lines of:
If you are facing another player with an equal skill level, and they are playing a class that is a hard counter to yours, you will lose. Rock beats Scissors
If you are facing another player with a lower skill level, and they are playing a class that is a hard counter to yours, you might lose, you might win. Rock normally beats Scissors, but this Rock is made of gypsum, while the Scissors are made of good steel. Maybe Rock crushes Scissors. Maybe Scissors are able to hold together and split Rock apart.