Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Too many healers?
Orell
Member
Will there be too many healers in AoC with too little demand for them?
My concern stems from two bits of information coming from Steven, stated in various interviews.
1.) Clerics will be the only main archetype with a focus on healing, that is, you’ll need to be a cleric/something to fulfill the healer role in your group.
2.) The standard group size will be 8, and the content/PvP will be balanced around the idea of these groups of 8 containing one of each of the main archetypes.
It follows from the above that a group of 8 will require one main healer, allowing that other something/cleric classes will be able to provide some off healing, the ratio of which we have no information on as of now.
I have little experience with MMOs, only ever played WoW and ESO, where the standard group sizes (requiring one healer) are 5 and 4, respectively. And in neither of these games have I seen a shortage of healers, which means that every 4th or 5th player in the game is willing to play a healer. If AoC is balanced in a way that requires every 8th person to play a healer, won’t there be too many of (with too little demand for) them?
#clericunemployment
My concern stems from two bits of information coming from Steven, stated in various interviews.
1.) Clerics will be the only main archetype with a focus on healing, that is, you’ll need to be a cleric/something to fulfill the healer role in your group.
2.) The standard group size will be 8, and the content/PvP will be balanced around the idea of these groups of 8 containing one of each of the main archetypes.
It follows from the above that a group of 8 will require one main healer, allowing that other something/cleric classes will be able to provide some off healing, the ratio of which we have no information on as of now.
I have little experience with MMOs, only ever played WoW and ESO, where the standard group sizes (requiring one healer) are 5 and 4, respectively. And in neither of these games have I seen a shortage of healers, which means that every 4th or 5th player in the game is willing to play a healer. If AoC is balanced in a way that requires every 8th person to play a healer, won’t there be too many of (with too little demand for) them?
#clericunemployment
2
Comments
The instance ques in WOW and cross server mask this quite well.
My first MMO was GW1 I started as an elementallist (mage) and could never find a group due to lack of healers. So I went and made one. Never had problems finding a group after that.
But anything is possible.
Let me tell you a story. I played a rogue for most of my life in WoW. I normally waited 15-30min for a healer in group finder or lfm.
15 TO 30 MINUTES!
Healers are like yetis. Some say they exist, but I tell you boy they are just a fkn myth!
Let me tell you a tip: For every healer in WoW exist 15 rogues or 30 hunters.
What kind of content did you run? Casual normal dungeons or the REAL stuff?
Everyone can quickly respec into a healer spec and run a normal dungeon thats easy.
Dont forget, it wont be possible to change your specialisation of your class like in WoW where you click on healer and become a fkn healer.
A paladin DPS can become a healer for one run no problem (especially now that they have always have either strength/intelligence on plate, dex/intelligence on chain, dex/int on leather switching depending on your current specialization)
Clerics usually do not count towards those. Clerics, Tanks and Bards will most likely be the most sought after primary archetypes as they tend to be the ones that are played the least.
Mages, Rogues and potentially Summoner tend to be the most overplayed classes.
Good old GW1 man. I miss it.
(I was lucky that my best friend in the game ran a Ritualist/Monk back in the day)
I only played WoW without LFG/LFR, my experience is limited to that. Never saw the lack of healers as a problem. Tanks? Oh yes, big time. My concern is more like the main healer role limited to one archetype, and the danger of that archetype being overrepresented compared to others.
When i qued up as Dmg dealer for dungen runs in ESO i would sometimes wait up to 5 min while as a healer i waited around 20 seconds and as a tank around 5 seconds.
But that's my personal experience.
Im sure there will be content where 1 healer is not enough in the group.
Healer can also augment like all the others so there will be a difference between a Cleric/Cleric healing ability and a Cleric/fighter healing ability.
There is also a difference in what skills each cleric focuses on.
You can spend more skill points on a skill to make it better. But you only have limited skill points.
Maybe i play cleric but only have dmg ability's with a single heal for emergency's.
With all that i believe no 2 clerics will be the same and you may find groups that take clerics as extra dmg dealer and off healer with them.
In the end we got 8 Archtypes and nobody knows how popular each of them will be.
All we can do is wait for the testing to start.
I missed the launch of the first expansion and when I came back just couldn't get into it. RL being what it is.
WoW somewhat mitigates the lower numbers of tanks/healers in a couple ways. While definitely lower than at their peak, they still have one of the largest overall playerbases of any MMO. They also allow you to basically freely switch between specs within your class. With 5 (I think?) classes having at least one spec that is a healing spec, it is very easy for players to switch to a healer if needed.
For ESO, since many skills depend purely on the weapons you use, I believe it is possibly for any class in that game to switch to a healing role if needed. It's been a while since I played, so I could be wrong. While not every class might have the say effectiveness at the role, it helps considerably towards alleviating the issue.
For whether there will be too many or too few healers in AoC, it's way too early to tell. I would hazard a guess that it will be like most other MMOs, and tanks/healers will be on the lesser played side. But a lot will depend on how big of a factor healers will be able to be in the various content.
TBC and Lich King 2007-2009, and now classic since release. Never played the one-button-respec expansions. And it depends on what you mean by the "real stuff". Played arena/semi-HC raiding.
I really hope you guys are right. I don't fancy myself a game designer, it just seemed strange to me to hear that if you wanna be a healer, you need to go cleric. But as stated above, probably much is subject to change in class design still.
If you want to be healer, you have to go Cleric initially, sure. Then you get some levels, and everyone starts to become a Scryer, High Priest, Templar, Oracle, Protector, Shadow Disciple, Shaman, or Apostle. While they're all primary Clerics, I imagine they should all play reasonably differently.
And who knows, it's entirely possible that something like a Soul Weaver - the Bard/Cleric class - could end up being a viable main healing class. I somehow doubt any of the other X/Cleric classes will be, but since Bard is already support-heavy, I could see that working out.
It all depends what sort of tanking, healing, and damage outputs the variety of content is tuned around.
agree. There been some rough mmo being a healer trying to do solo content. Sure I can group but my XP rate is slower tho or I could spam dungeons but lose out on world content.
yes and no. in AoC - clerics are the only MAIN healer. A bard can't run you through a dungeon. They are healers and buffers / debuffers.. they are more utility based.
if you need a tank - it's gonna be a tank. Not a fighter spec into def or rogue spec in def / or high evasion.
if you're gonna need a healer - only choice will be a cleric only, not a paladin, druid, bard, etc.
while there needs to be game mechanics to support group interactions to deal with challenges the sad fact is the trinity sucks. the majority dont enjoy it however end up advocating for it due to never seeing anything else work.
the game mechanic trinity concept forces archetypes into not enjoyable game classes. fighters shouldnt be attention holding damage sponges and clerics in table top games and literature while often a tier down on raw general damage are often highly destructive to exceedingly dangerous targets like undead and demonic. both monster types that get powered down in video games from their table top and literature counter parts which greatly diminish the combative role for the cleric archetype.
here's a thought experiment. instead of playing the party, play the mob. So if you are playing a dragon and group of trinity classes invade your lair how ridiculous would it be that you are forced to attack the not particularly threatening damage sponge and do nothing to counter the heal blasting mages masquerading as 'clerics' and never mind the army of dps archetypes rofl stomping you? the group game mechanics suck and are not popular evidenced by the lack of support for 2/3rd of the trinity roles.
video game group mechanics do not represent archetypes well. fighters should be up close because they do the best damage there and can survive the burst damage that is common there. fighters should be putting themselves between mob(s) and other targets. the cleric should not be reduced to heal blasting. the vast majority hates it, lets lose the mechanic. one could still do plenty of support in a conflict however it could be varied and have just as varied solutions and tactics.
dps should be an opportunity not a class defining role. fighters that arent in a fully committed defense posture should be every bit as deadly as anyone else. a wizard should be able to not only be highly defensive but provide support to their group as well. magic shield, ice wall, teleport another out of danger, ..
Bard is a buffer / debuffer not a healer.
Not going to lie, i want to roll High Priest and i really hope i can obliterate undead/shadow/demon monsters xD nothing wrong with an archetype being better at something then another!
But GW1 also let you choose two classes at the same time. Warrior/Monk was one of the strongest choices tbh.
I could be wrong (it's been... many many years since I played the original Guild Wars), but the problem with comparing AoC to GW1 in this way, is that you had access to all the skills of your secondary class, regardless of your primary. Monk/X and X/Monk all had nearly the same healing potential.
This is likely not going to be the case in AoC. While it is entirely possible, is it likely that the X/Cleric classes are probably not going to be nearly as effective at healing as the Cleric/X classes. Well, except Cleric/Cleric, which might be stronger than all the others.
We didnt actually compare GW1 with AoC though ;D
You are right though, that the secondary class did give you access to its spells.
(I loved to play Derwish with Assassin for the shadowstep xD)
Have you ever played a healer in ESO. Do you know why the queue group finder is mere minutes for a healer or a tank but upwards of an hour for a dps? There is a shortage. It is also hard to compare because how many healers you need depends on the content. Most good ball groups will run up to 8 healers for their raid ((this is out of a 16-24 person group.)) WHere as the PVE equivalent trials run 2 healers out of a group of 12.
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.
I feel like there might indeed be too many healers in this game. But I feel like Intrepid knows this, hence why clerics are given dmg as well. I just hope that they balance it out, as having a cleric that can outheal your damage while dealing a lot of damage to you is just unfun to play against. They will also completely outvalue other dps classes in group content due to the sheer value that healing has.
I intend to start as mage but if there is a lack of healers I'll roll a cleric alt. Was going to anyway but if finding groups gets to be to much of a challenge then heals it is.
When they added group finder to WOW dps que's were super long. I leveled a Discipline healer priest never left Orgimar once I could que. I logged in hit que as healer and got instant groups as long as i wanted them.
Personally glad there will be no group finder. But his worked for me as I was already raiding on my mage and was just trying to power through a healer so I could fill either role as the guild needed. Ended up raiding with both was good fun.
Well Clerics are given damage because I think a lot of the classes seem to take inspiration from their more traditional D&D counterparts where Cleric does indeed have decent damage and CC, wears Medium/Chain armor often, along with lots of heals/cleanses, and is more of a fighter than a delicate cloth wearing heal bot.
But in terms of the poll I think it's right on target. In a party of 8, 1 Cleric would be 12.5% of the party makeup. In the poll, they're 14% of the votes. So that works out just fine. If somehow there's an abundance of Clerics, well I'm sure many parties will be flexible in the class makeup so friends/guildies might be happy to take one more, especially if that extra Cleric is more dps or support focused.