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Group focused- rock,paper,scissors- bad dynamic
Medrash
Member
Hi guys, i'm now reading all the wiki, that i missed somehow, and i saw this...
"There will be match ups in 1v1s where one class will be superior to another; and that application should be a rock-paper-scissors dynamic. We want there to be counter-play between the different classes... Instead it's going to be a group focused balance, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present, that's going to be an equal level playing field. It's going to be very dependent on skill and strategy."
I think i'm going to post a lot of discussions when i have time, becouse i think there are many bad interpretations of good game dynamics/mechanics .
Why do i think this idea is bad for the game and will be pretty weak.
the rock-paper-scissor is a dynamic that originates from martial arts ... where you have to choose the type of attack to kill the enemy, the idea behind the concept is choise, you need to reflect, perceive and intuit the enemy ... this is called a "balanced" fight, and introduce to the strategy.
Now immagine the game, but you can only use 1 of the 3 moves (rock,paper,scissors) , that's ashes of creation idea right there.
"it's going to be Very dependent on Skill and Strategy"!
but you can only have one class ... win against come enemies, do some stuff ... so at the end your one dimentional character is going to give you epic moments of Strategy 
That's a fault.
the rock paper scissor mechanic is ment to fit into one character, so you can choose and be strategic, otherwise there is 0 strategy involved.
So it's bad to have a 1 vs 1 where one class will be superior to another, that's not balance at all. That's a railroad gameplay, not even a Game.
I wanted to get you noticed that the ashes creators are rly nice, good people, players and fans of the mmorpg genre, but they need a serious game designer with them to help, otherwise i fear the will be uncapable of making a Great mmorps as we all expect. I don't know, right now this is my forma-mentis, but i'm rly excited for the game and the project. But right now i don't see it working well, maybe it needs just time.
So speaking about this dynamic i read and explaining more ... a strategy is when you have the choise in your "hand" (lol) , when you speak with a guy and ask to him ... what's the next move dude? Giving to the players only the scissor or the paper will kill any type of relation and social aspect of this part of the game. Becouse you will have your job, the designer of ashes of creations have already decided for you what to do, like a robot. Do your job ... you are the hand and the DM (devs) are the mind. They act like gamers in this project becouse it's their nature, i think they need a good Game designer ...
The dev comment ( made by Steven Sharif) in the wiki made me shiver.
-"We want there to be counter-play between the different classes ... Instead it's going to be a group focused balance, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present, that's going to be an equal level playing field."-
This is not a thirth person strategic game, where you have to coordinate an army of enemies with different classes, it's a mmorpg , everyone is a dude and needs individual counterplay in their kit, the rock-paper-scissor.
Counter-play between the different classes means no counterplay (or much less) individually, in 1 vs 1 situations. If you charge your counter you die, if you are the counter you will win. This is going to Freeze the Meta, same groups, same strategy ("strategy"). So basically there will be 1 option to follow, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present you will not lose, and the fight will be equal ... if you miss a class or an archetype the level will not be equal xD .
i wanna say that the game can be fun with this restriction too, but i hope there will be some counter to some classes, like wow does in some situation with the use of items to cover some weak spots, and give more options for the player.
I hope you devs got the issue and will do something about this
i rly trust in you and your good faith!
For the Alliance!!! just kidding ... pff horde go away ..
Cya then
"There will be match ups in 1v1s where one class will be superior to another; and that application should be a rock-paper-scissors dynamic. We want there to be counter-play between the different classes... Instead it's going to be a group focused balance, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present, that's going to be an equal level playing field. It's going to be very dependent on skill and strategy."
I think i'm going to post a lot of discussions when i have time, becouse i think there are many bad interpretations of good game dynamics/mechanics .
Why do i think this idea is bad for the game and will be pretty weak.
the rock-paper-scissor is a dynamic that originates from martial arts ... where you have to choose the type of attack to kill the enemy, the idea behind the concept is choise, you need to reflect, perceive and intuit the enemy ... this is called a "balanced" fight, and introduce to the strategy.
Now immagine the game, but you can only use 1 of the 3 moves (rock,paper,scissors) , that's ashes of creation idea right there.
"it's going to be Very dependent on Skill and Strategy"!
but you can only have one class ... win against come enemies, do some stuff ... so at the end your one dimentional character is going to give you epic moments of Strategy That's a fault.
the rock paper scissor mechanic is ment to fit into one character, so you can choose and be strategic, otherwise there is 0 strategy involved.
So it's bad to have a 1 vs 1 where one class will be superior to another, that's not balance at all. That's a railroad gameplay, not even a Game.
I wanted to get you noticed that the ashes creators are rly nice, good people, players and fans of the mmorpg genre, but they need a serious game designer with them to help, otherwise i fear the will be uncapable of making a Great mmorps as we all expect. I don't know, right now this is my forma-mentis, but i'm rly excited for the game and the project. But right now i don't see it working well, maybe it needs just time.
So speaking about this dynamic i read and explaining more ... a strategy is when you have the choise in your "hand" (lol) , when you speak with a guy and ask to him ... what's the next move dude? Giving to the players only the scissor or the paper will kill any type of relation and social aspect of this part of the game. Becouse you will have your job, the designer of ashes of creations have already decided for you what to do, like a robot. Do your job ... you are the hand and the DM (devs) are the mind. They act like gamers in this project becouse it's their nature, i think they need a good Game designer ...
The dev comment ( made by Steven Sharif) in the wiki made me shiver.
-"We want there to be counter-play between the different classes ... Instead it's going to be a group focused balance, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present, that's going to be an equal level playing field."-
This is not a thirth person strategic game, where you have to coordinate an army of enemies with different classes, it's a mmorpg , everyone is a dude and needs individual counterplay in their kit, the rock-paper-scissor.
Counter-play between the different classes means no counterplay (or much less) individually, in 1 vs 1 situations. If you charge your counter you die, if you are the counter you will win. This is going to Freeze the Meta, same groups, same strategy ("strategy"). So basically there will be 1 option to follow, where as long as you have the diversity of classes present you will not lose, and the fight will be equal ... if you miss a class or an archetype the level will not be equal xD .
i wanna say that the game can be fun with this restriction too, but i hope there will be some counter to some classes, like wow does in some situation with the use of items to cover some weak spots, and give more options for the player.
I hope you devs got the issue and will do something about this
i rly trust in you and your good faith!For the Alliance!!! just kidding ... pff horde go away ..
Cya then
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Comments
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Fighting a class that counters you isn't an automatic loss, it's a disadvantage. You cannot simply abstract away the process of actually playing the game.
THIS right here. Perfect explanation
I dont mind that a class counters mine. So long as there isnt a class that dominates any one spectrum of combat or even 1-2 classes that do. Like one class dominating all pvp or pve
But what @apmax said about homogenization because one class does X well against X class is what kills pvp for me in games.
ESO used have a interesting dynamic between classes and while some things were overperforming, many skills or abilities were not but simply worked well against one class or another. The only exception being stealth, stealth (for obvious reasons) is an particularly difficult mechanic to balance
I agree as well. The reason WoW's combat became so boring is because every class got everything.
It is also more than this. Your secondary archtype will give you the ability to mitigate some of the weaknesses of your class. Let's say for instance you play a tank, which is really good close combat situations but is really vulnerable to range combat realistically this would make it weak against Rangers and Mages as they can run away from you and as long as they can effectively kite you, you can't do much. Now lets say you choose the mage subtype, we know from the Dev's that one of the tanks augments when combined with a mage is a gap closer teleport. Now you have a means to catch up to the enemy and to maintain close corridor combat.
This type of system rewards forthought and practice as you need to know the limits of your classes, and the classes that counter your class. From here you can develop strageties and tactics to overcome your weaknesses.
If the classes were just the 8 classes I agree it would be a bit boring and railroady but they are not and you have a huge variety of skills to choose from. What you choose, why you choose it will matter more in this kind of combat and I expect people to be able to beat classes they shouldn't just by understanding their class more and accommodating for their weaknesses.
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.
Plus we don't even know exactly how big of an advantage you will get. There is every possibility that even if you are the disadvantaged one, you could still win if you have superior PVP skills. Paper > rock doesn't mean you might as well just give up if you are rock.
U.S. East
AoC is a team combat game, much like Overwatch, Team Fortress 2, or your pick of multiplayer online battle arena. Team members fulfill roles in your team; a team lacking a role is at a disadvantage to a team that has that role filled. In a team fight, fights are often decided after the first or second kill, not only because of the difference in numbers, but more importantly because of the deficit in roles. In particular, the roles in AoC are Tank, Damage, and Healing. Since there is only one Tank and one Healer, but six Damage characters, AoC employs a trinity system to spice up PvP interactions.
Thanz you!
Welllllll, if you are going to 'cheat' we might as well go with rock, paper, scissors, lizard Spock!
No ... I don't know what homogeneous class balance means exactly, just class balance. I don't mentioned any homogeneous thing. Maybe you mean that every class will be the same, i didn't said that.
Fighting a class that counters you means a loss, even though you win in a rare situation , or the counter is just bad with the class, you will lose more against him. Whan 2 players of the same level and skill start to fight , the counter will win for sure. That's boring and not fun, not strategic and rewording.
This happen in LoL , in WoW and many new games. This create toxicity as well ... becouse you create a flase sense of skill.
I understand your thought , playing with disadvantage is fun sure, but you can only win if you can counter the enemy , otherwise the disadvantage is unidirectional and unhealthy for a game.
The BALANCE is important!
i don't get your last point, what do you mean ? Abstract away the process of actually playing the game?
the counter mechanics is a fun and important for sure, but i said that each player need that function. You are right that each class is different, but the Rock paper scissors applied class balance works only on teamfights, where a player choose to focus into a rule to be more effective at the cost of rely on teammates.
you are assuming to know how much of an advantage the rock/paper/scissor method has but you have no idea. When we use the term rock/paper/scissor it is just an analogy and not a direct representation. If you and me play R/P/S then we know that paper beats rock 100% of the time.
In an MMO many other things come into consideration. player skill, gear, some RNG all will play a role. If all of a sudden I added a blade on top of my rock it might beat the paper now. For all we know at this point the advantage could equate to something like a 1-5% advantage which is easily negated by skill, gear, and RNG. You are viewing it as strictly R/P/S which is what it might be at the very base and bones of it. The difference is there is going to be layers upon layers of things that will effect and change the results of a fight.
If me and someone else are equal in skill but they have better gear then me I will lose. That is very similar to if me and someone were dead even in skill but I lose to the R/P/S. the reality is you will rarely meet someone who is EXACTLY even to you because you have to factor in gear and RNG. RNG could be anything. I have a piece of gear or an item that gives me 30% chance to lower your attack for 5 seconds. maybe in a particular fight it procs 70% of the time and another it procs not a single time.
Heroes Fade but Legends last forever
I think that's fine as long as 'advantage' stays as just an advantage rather than outright countering. For example, if archer beats mage beats tank beats assassin beats archer then it should due to the strengths of their kits. Archer can outrange mage and do better single target damage, mage has enough cc and damage nukes that limited mobility tanks can't get through easily, tanks can survive assassin burst and win with sustained damage, assassin has the mobility to stick to archer and burst them down, and then we return to the start of the loop.
However, that mage should be able to close the gap with that archer and be capable of landing a burst combo that lets them beat that archer still. Tanks should be able to use well times defense to eat the mage's aoe and use their limited mobility wisely to close the gap, assassins should be able to kite between combos to beat that tank, and archers should be able to use well timed mobility to counter the assassin's gap closers.
Emphasis on skill>everything is the key to me. Using a tier system like bronze/silver/gold/platinum/diamond a platinum rock should beat a gold paper 9/10 times still.
I understand that the balancing of classes can lead to a loss of variety, when you want to semplify everything ... of course the everything will be more balanced, but that doesn't mean that uniqueness cannot coexist with balance. You can be a tank that can survive to everything, or an assassin that can kill everything.
For example , in wow the druid counter the mage becouse he can shapeshift and free himself from many cc of the mage and then charge him... dead mage. The mage can have some counter to the druid that prevents his shapeshifting, or other options to fight him (and not just the freeze one) and maybe the druid something to free himself from that type of magic. This will create a more dynamic spell rotation, based on choise... and not only 1 rotation to use in every situations, where sometimes can be effective (vs warrior) and sometimes not (druids) .
They still druids , but the can counter each other.
In reality every class need to follow his archetype, his style and rules, but the game should allow a master of a certain class to be a Master, and give to him the power of fight every situation, to beat everyone ... if the skill cap of the player is also perfect. Without changing his archetype or identity ...
Look the face of asmongold everytime he faces a mage xD a 1 vs 1 ... do you think he has fun in that moment? when he loses almost everytime.
Of course the game already have some counterplay, becouse if the counter doesn't know how to play correctly he will probably lose. Becouse the base mechanics of the damage output are balanced usually. But the rest of the kit usually is not that balanced, and will lead a stronger class to win 90/100% of the times.
When you balance a class it means that he has the same power and chance to win of all the others. The idea of ashes of creations is to balance only the team fights of a pre-ordered team composition.
That's my issue , hope you get the point.
An MMO can be balanced, it's just not that easy probably. The standard philosophy of a MMOrpg genre (or just rpg) focus on the variety of characters and builds, so it's usually pretty hard to balance it. But the way to get a good mmorpg is to balance every class, keeping his unique value and personality.
@Cold 0ne FTB
I realized that sometimes i act like this, maybe i'm a little arrogant, i ask sorry to the Devs and everyone ... i didn't ment you are bad designer
I just want to help you fix some points of the game, but my personality take it over maybe
So you agree with both points xD interesting , actually it's the same for me.
I think a class can counter another one, but only is some circumstances, when you corrupt yourself to gain more power or give make a strategic choise... but give some big vulnerability to the others, that can work well into a team composition sure. But only into a team probably, so if you decide to give up your powerfull equipment and your team, you will be able to counter or escape in some situations or fights ... i'm making some films in my head xD , i don't know if you get it
Well we don't want mages to fall over in melee range, let's give them gigantic shields, short cooldown roots, and instant cast spells that let them do essentially the same damage. Let's give rangers(hunters) short cooldown traps, five escape abilities, get rid of their dead zone, etc. <-- WoW's approach. -- > well now our melee classes are struggling to keep in range of the ranged classes, we need to give them more mobility and lockdowns, and it just snowballs after that. It's not clean anymore, it's just a frenetic mess. I'm completely on board with rock/paper/scissors centered around group play - with hard counters, if there are classes I can't beat 90% of the time 1v1, that's fine by me, give me tools to keep me aware of approaching threats, and the ability to disengage/run away if I react soon enough.
Not exactly. Theres a fine line between rock, paper, scissors
And just having blatant overpowered classes.
Theoretically if the devs do the balancing correctly here, every class is going to run into X class with X ability that counters that playstyle.
I'm just saying that having X class should never be around that every single other class says "yup broken" know what I mean? There shouldnt be any 1 or 2 classes thats completely dominate in pvp or pve damage. If there is the balance has failed miserably in any game
End of thread.
thank you a lot for the answer ... yea i got that sure. This complicated system that uses secondary archetypes gives to the player more variety and classes for sure, but it doesn't fix the problem to the "root".
You can still opt for a tank/tank class build or even a tank/mage , but you will never be able to get more power i suppose. So if you choose the tank/tank you will probably get countered a lot by the archmage and many mages, and when the player choose the tank/mage one the counter pool will shift, but still exist. So now mages cannot counter you that much just becouse you can mimic some of their ability, you will lose power against against some classes you counter but get countered heavly from the Mage/tank one maybe.
I like the idea of mixing some classes, but still, the main class will be prevailing.
My issue remain, a class counter another one, so the gamplay ends on your class selection at the start of the game. Said at the extremes ... if you face a mage as a tank you will lose most of the times (it all depends on the skill cap of the enemy i believe) , of course the game have always some basic combat mechanic that allow you to counter and win fights, but the class will feal powerless against some classes and op against other, and that's Boring.
So i have some idea of game design to fix that problem, i think.
Usually a ranger get a range advantage at the cost of a melee disadvantage, so the warrior want to engage and the hunter escape. But that doesn't mean the hunter counter the warrior, it should be skill to determinate that... a warrior can use his shield to protect himself from the hunter, or charge him.
In wow you can cover some weak spots with items, to make you more powerful and versatile.
The game need to promote defensive skills in my opinion , way to escape bad situations and re-group into a good strategy. So the "hunter" or pvp abuser need to be actually good to catch a player ... there is too much focus on dps.
Anyway this is another topic, you have to follow your game design idea... i will read more of the wiki. So i can be more prepared.
I liked your second part of the comment , where you explain that you need to know your limits ... but you can overcome them with tactis. Then with the levelling .. skill, practice and gearing you can balance all the 1vs1 into a 50/50 right?
Becouse if you mean that an experienced player will kill a noob with a class that counter him ... this is not what i ment :P .
Than i don't understand what you said about the boring and railroaded aspect ... i actually need to deep more into the wiki for that
But as i got the game design doesn't allow that strategic and dynamic way to level up the character... it will be a tank with tank skills.
Sure as i know you will chance the class depending on your secondary one, but this will add minor variations that already exist in other classes, so tecnically there will be only 8 classes that you can mix a little bit. The game will give you 8 classes with 8 unique set of spells... wow gives you more classes with 3 different specs and way to play, more character and uniqueness to each class. In some later expansions wow added more spells to choose based on the spec you have, more uniqueness ... that makes around 30 unique classes (i didn't made any math to be precise) . You have 8 unique classes ... it all depends if each secondary class will add totally new mechanics and features ... but that's a lot of work for 64 classes to make.
I think that one of the only good things wow have done good into an expansion is the skill poor increase for each spec.
Wow also started slowly .. so i don't blame you if the game will get better in the future ...
Anyway overall the class choise feel a bit caotic for me ... a dev said that it's possible to make 6 classes for the start and then expand it to 8 ... i think that this is a great idea to start from ... No summoner or bard or fighter maybe? i think is greath ... pls add the druid, it is so important i believe.
then i will give my best augury.
(sry for my delay, i had things to do)
Who is the shooter? xD we need a new class then! Pistol beat everyone -_-
If what you said is correct then i'm fine with it and a lot relieved. Actually this game has a lot and it's pretty had to build it without any mistake.
If the rest of the mechanics are fine then the game will still be awesome and pretty fun. I have to check that.
I rly hope this project will take a good road ..
I actually exaggerated how much the RPS dynamic will affect the combat, but from what i've read in the wiki in seems more of a simple 1-5% ... maybe a 20% .
I hope the 1% then ... i still want counter potential in teamfights, where a bad choise will lead your little character to death. Not just damage output and resistence xD . The RPS need to be present in the class kit.
I trust their experience with MMOrpg, i'm sure they will come up with some gear to cover that.
Anyway another problem i wanted to discuss is actually the RNG impact in the game. I didn't know if there will be randomness into the game ... if that exist i'm disapointed . RNG is bad for almost all games ... only for gambling is allowed .
just kidding, sometimes is necessary, but i hope not too much ... the player doesn't have to feel his existence.
the item you theorized must be a static 50% , for example.
You didn't get my idea of balancing and RockPaperScissor dynamic.
You are absolutelly right, diversity is essential, but i don't see how trying to balance things will lead so something less balanced. Of course you need to balance properly to get a good result ... anyway.
I don't want to get rid of the RPS dynamic at all, i'm just saying that it needs to be built into each class. Where you can choose how to act at a cost of some downsides ... why mages are op in almost all the games? xD becouse it's the master of magic ... and usually that concept will make devs to build an overloaded class .... to reflect the mage concept ... it's like God. For that reason it's the most fun to play in many games .. and the hardest to master. (not into raids xD ... wow!!?!) .
Who said that a mage cannot be a tank ... who said that a mage cannot summon or pet an animal with some classic style magic? Games generally adopt more the idea of a sorceres, or a mage more into the damage side, for the "Mages", becouse we tend to develop more the dps mechanic into games ... the Druid is the only mage that can be also a tank i suppose xD ...
So i want to make clear that when you choose to cast a spell you will get some penality or drawbacks with it, to balance the usage of a spell and the effects. Like a reduction of your mana or a CD to delay your second cast ... and more. That makes a fight rich of choises and the possibility to counter play. You have to manage your skills and resources.. counter the enemy, etc.
if a mage engage in melee combat with some melee magic he will be vulnerable to many other things, he will lose the mana and the capacity to use ranged spells.
Anyway i proper warrior with full armor will be generally more effective against a mage with leather armor... the mage is not that smart if he does such move , but maybe a mage in armor can.
This lead to another problem maybe ... if a mage can wear armor what's the difference between warrior and mage? Maybe the warrior can wear enchanted stuff and he is trained with strong muscles and some other type of magic or power , and the mage cannot use magic with enchanted stuff. The mage needs a overall nerf i think then .
Sry i'm killing you with all this thinking, i maybe have to start building my own game