Not exactly. Theres a fine line between rock, paper, scissors
And just having blatant overpowered classes.
Theoretically if the devs do the balancing correctly here, every class is going to run into X class with X ability that counters that playstyle.
I'm just saying that having X class should never be around that every single other class says "yup broken" know what I mean? There shouldnt be any 1 or 2 classes thats completely dominate in pvp or pve damage. If there is the balance has failed miserably in any game
You are absolutelly right, i was a little bit drunk when i wrote that commet xD it was late. Nevermind ...
Having overpowered classes is exacly the problem i have right now with the game Idea. Actually overpowered and weaker at the same time ... depending on the class you fight.
I didn't understood that:
"Theoretically if the devs do the balancing correctly here, every class is going to run into X class with X ability that counters that playstyle.";
what playstyle?
Having a broken class doesn't mean a "balanced" game... i don't get why correctly balancing the game will lead into a unbalanced one xD .
You are absolutelly right ... broken classes are terrible, but the devs already said they think about that, using a rock-paper-scissor dynamic in teams... but the problem still that certain classes will be overpowered against some classes.
At the end there will be a small difference of power ... they said. we will see .
Yea balance need to not fail, of course. You got the point at the start your comment was messy but i got your thoughts.
Fighting a class that counters you isn't an automatic loss, it's a disadvantage. You cannot simply abstract away the process of actually playing the game.
End of thread.
If a disadvantage is actually "playing the game" i will ask to close the discussion, but fighting without a leg is not a fair game When you have a disadvantage you have less choice and less fun. usually it imply that you cannot play that much when a game is not fair. A permanent disadvantage is a problem in games.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Life isn't fair. Some of the best open world pvp fights I've been in over the years have been the most unfair.
If your fighting a mob and someone jumps you from an opposing faction when your already half dead is a big disadvantage. Even if you have the stronger class. I don't think most open world fights will take place in a vacuum. There will be a lot of other factors involved be it terrain , monsters or other players.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
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SussurroMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Rock paper scissors class balance with hard counters is good, homogeneous class balance is bad.
Fighting a class that counters you isn't an automatic loss, it's a disadvantage. You cannot simply abstract away the process of actually playing the game.
I agree as well. The reason WoW's combat became so boring is because every class got everything.
@CaptnChuck Exactly, Blizzard's dynamic is demonstrated again in Overwatch where a player can choose a counter hero but the outcome of the matchup may be skill based (this is muddled during certain patch cycles). They seem to be returning to some semblance of their former philosophy in Shadowlands and I'm excited to play that as we continue to iterate on AoC.
“Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.” - Terry Prachett, Reaper Man
@Medrash So what I get from this is you know how to design a game where 8 classes have unique mechanics and skills, but are completely balanced in every 1v1 fight variation as well as 8v8...hell even in 250vs250? All while making sure they aren't in any way, shape, or form just copies of one another with different ability names and particle effects to give you the feeling they are unique(retail WoW)?
If you are telling us you found a way to do this you deserve a job at intrepid, otherwise if you have no clue how to do any of that, you should just let the devs do their jobs because in reality, you can't give a true all around balance without giving every class the same skill set, and that takes away the point of there even being a class system. And that sounds absolutely awful.
Fighting a class that counters you isn't an automatic loss, it's a disadvantage. You cannot simply abstract away the process of actually playing the game.
End of thread.
If a disadvantage is actually "playing the game" i will ask to close the discussion, but fighting without a leg is not a fair game When you have a disadvantage you have less choice and less fun. usually it imply that you cannot play that much when a game is not fair. A permanent disadvantage is a problem in games.
We don't know how fair the game will be yet, no point sweating over it. You also describe it like you will have a disadvantage with no possible alternative situations where you would have advantage akin to having you monitor turned off. Seems like your are thinking in the extremes..
I dont think its going to be black and white; rock, paper, scissors. There will be lots of grey area. Just because a class has a clear advantage over one doesnt mean you auto will lose. They advantage player could suck at playing their character. Have clear advantages and stating that these classes are better then that class but suck against this one makes it so that dont have to do the impossible task of balancing.
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SussurroMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Life isn't fair. Some of the best open world pvp fights I've been in over the years have been the most unfair.
If your fighting a mob and someone jumps you from an opposing faction when your already half dead is a big disadvantage. Even if you have the stronger class. I don't think most open world fights will take place in a vacuum. There will be a lot of other factors involved be it terrain , monsters or other players.
I would say another factor may be consumables, crafted items, buffs received from other classes and all gear being made available available to all classes. My contention with this is that I don't believe they're heading towards a balance of hard counters; rather, this rock-paper-scissors dynamic will be focused around how one would play a class or base archetype 'conventionally'. The nerf hammer may also come down on outlying 'unconventional' builds but, if I'm understanding it correctly, the sheer agency a player has to shape their character is so wonderfully convoluted that it would make such balancing soft counters at best.
Take this with a grain of salt, I'm the kind of person that would love to have the build potential of something as monstrous as PoE in his MMO. AoC's projected class design would be grounded by comparison.
“Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.” - Terry Prachett, Reaper Man
Life isn't fair. Some of the best open world pvp fights I've been in over the years have been the most unfair.
If your fighting a mob and someone jumps you from an opposing faction when your already half dead is a big disadvantage. Even if you have the stronger class. I don't think most open world fights will take place in a vacuum. There will be a lot of other factors involved be it terrain , monsters or other players.
Absolutelly, when you farm a mob you need to take some risk and precautions, if you play it well there isn't a disadvantage , even better, it can become a bait for the enemy. In games usually it's pretty random, you cannot influence your actions that much or build strategic scenarious.
Disadvantage is an important mechanic in video games, i didn't say i don't like it, i just said that is needed counterplay and strategy that comes with your skill.
In classic wow if you fight a mob you just prey and farm ... there is no tactic or any other solution that gives to the player a choice, that involve skill.
if you win a fight it's not unfair for you usually, of course in wow skill matters sure, for that reason he actually killed him . I don't see pleasure in killing noobs ... some of the best fights xD . But usually they will kill you , if the are not noobs. Becouse the game have such a railroaded machanics that gives to the player less skill required and strategy.
So my idea is to reward a skilled player and make the game in general less boring for smart people and mmorpg expert.
How many times in classic you end up doing the same thing everytime, go .. try and then die, and there is anything you can do ... or you try to farm (probably dying) or you do nothing .
@Medrash So what I get from this is you know how to design a game where 8 classes have unique mechanics and skills, but are completely balanced in every 1v1 fight variation as well as 8v8...hell even in 250vs250? All while making sure they aren't in any way, shape, or form just copies of one another with different ability names and particle effects to give you the feeling they are unique(retail WoW)?
If you are telling us you found a way to do this you deserve a job at intrepid, otherwise if you have no clue how to do any of that, you should just let the devs do their jobs because in reality, you can't give a true all around balance without giving every class the same skill set, and that takes away the point of there even being a class system. And that sounds absolutely awful.
Yes, i thought about this and many other games when i was young, how to fix them and make them better. I had a lot of ideas , but i gave up ... the idea of making a game just becouse it's too hard alone .
i have a general idea now , a little fogged of my thoughts and fix.
Actully i have an idea where 100+ unique class can be unique, balanced and fun. I don't know how much possible is to implement a system like this, maybe it will be too heavy for a pc, but it will not be that heavy for just 8 classes i suppose.
I will try to expose some in the "Community creations" ... maybe?
I'm good at thinking but horrible in "concretizing" xD
We don't know how fair the game will be yet, no point sweating over it. You also describe it like you will have a disadvantage with no possible alternative situations where you would have advantage akin to having your monitor turned off. Seems like your are thinking in the extremes..
yes i'm thinking in the extremes a little bit to make it more clear. Of course we actually don't know how much of a disadvantage it will be, but the problem remain that into a system like AoC .. and other mmorpgs, if you make each class with less disadvantages and advantage it will be boring in every 1vs1, becouse it's going to be just a damage output, without counterplay. Maybe they built a rly good set of skills, who knows, i actually don't know, maybe it will be awesome ... i just reacted to the Dev on the wiki to make clear that a railroaded 1vs1 is not fun or "strategic".
Comments
You are absolutelly right, i was a little bit drunk when i wrote that commet xD it was late. Nevermind ...
Having overpowered classes is exacly the problem i have right now with the game Idea. Actually overpowered and weaker at the same time ... depending on the class you fight.
I didn't understood that:
"Theoretically if the devs do the balancing correctly here, every class is going to run into X class with X ability that counters that playstyle.";
what playstyle?
Having a broken class doesn't mean a "balanced" game... i don't get why correctly balancing the game will lead into a unbalanced one xD .
You are absolutelly right ... broken classes are terrible, but the devs already said they think about that, using a rock-paper-scissor dynamic in teams... but the problem still that certain classes will be overpowered against some classes.
At the end there will be a small difference of power ... they said. we will see .
Yea balance need to not fail, of course. You got the point
If a disadvantage is actually "playing the game" i will ask to close the discussion, but fighting without a leg is not a fair game
If your fighting a mob and someone jumps you from an opposing faction when your already half dead is a big disadvantage. Even if you have the stronger class. I don't think most open world fights will take place in a vacuum. There will be a lot of other factors involved be it terrain , monsters or other players.
@CaptnChuck Exactly, Blizzard's dynamic is demonstrated again in Overwatch where a player can choose a counter hero but the outcome of the matchup may be skill based (this is muddled during certain patch cycles). They seem to be returning to some semblance of their former philosophy in Shadowlands and I'm excited to play that as we continue to iterate on AoC.
If you are telling us you found a way to do this you deserve a job at intrepid, otherwise if you have no clue how to do any of that, you should just let the devs do their jobs because in reality, you can't give a true all around balance without giving every class the same skill set, and that takes away the point of there even being a class system. And that sounds absolutely awful.
We don't know how fair the game will be yet, no point sweating over it. You also describe it like you will have a disadvantage with no possible alternative situations where you would have advantage akin to having you monitor turned off. Seems like your are thinking in the extremes..
I would say another factor may be consumables, crafted items, buffs received from other classes and all gear being made available available to all classes. My contention with this is that I don't believe they're heading towards a balance of hard counters; rather, this rock-paper-scissors dynamic will be focused around how one would play a class or base archetype 'conventionally'. The nerf hammer may also come down on outlying 'unconventional' builds but, if I'm understanding it correctly, the sheer agency a player has to shape their character is so wonderfully convoluted that it would make such balancing soft counters at best.
Take this with a grain of salt, I'm the kind of person that would love to have the build potential of something as monstrous as PoE in his MMO. AoC's projected class design would be grounded by comparison.
Absolutelly, when you farm a mob you need to take some risk and precautions, if you play it well there isn't a disadvantage , even better, it can become a bait for the enemy. In games usually it's pretty random, you cannot influence your actions that much or build strategic scenarious.
Disadvantage is an important mechanic in video games, i didn't say i don't like it, i just said that is needed counterplay and strategy that comes with your skill.
In classic wow if you fight a mob you just prey and farm ... there is no tactic or any other solution that gives to the player a choice, that involve skill.
if you win a fight it's not unfair for you usually, of course in wow skill matters sure, for that reason he actually killed him . I don't see pleasure in killing noobs ... some of the best fights xD . But usually they will kill you , if the are not noobs. Becouse the game have such a railroaded machanics that gives to the player less skill required and strategy.
So my idea is to reward a skilled player and make the game in general less boring for smart people and mmorpg expert.
How many times in classic you end up doing the same thing everytime, go .. try and then die, and there is anything you can do ... or you try to farm (probably dying) or you do nothing .
Yes, i thought about this and many other games when i was young, how to fix them and make them better. I had a lot of ideas , but i gave up ... the idea of making a game just becouse it's too hard alone .
i have a general idea now , a little fogged of my thoughts and fix.
Actully i have an idea where 100+ unique class can be unique, balanced and fun. I don't know how much possible is to implement a system like this, maybe it will be too heavy for a pc, but it will not be that heavy for just 8 classes i suppose.
I will try to expose some in the "Community creations" ... maybe?
I'm good at thinking but horrible in "concretizing" xD
yes i'm thinking in the extremes a little bit to make it more clear. Of course we actually don't know how much of a disadvantage it will be, but the problem remain that into a system like AoC .. and other mmorpgs, if you make each class with less disadvantages and advantage it will be boring in every 1vs1, becouse it's going to be just a damage output, without counterplay. Maybe they built a rly good set of skills, who knows, i actually don't know, maybe it will be awesome ... i just reacted to the Dev on the wiki to make clear that a railroaded 1vs1 is not fun or "strategic".