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PvP progression should be reworked
Marzzo
Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
IS defines AoC as a PvX game. These are IS definition of PvX, these statements are crucial since they define what AoC sees as PvX:
1*We like to really refer to ourselves as a PvX game, because in those systems of PvP, PvE, crafting they're all intertwined: They're interdependent on each other... Our system of development really requires some interdependence there between those things. You're going to need a crafter to give you the best items. You're going to need PvPers to secure cities and castles. You're gonna need PvErs to take down those world bosses for those materials to craft.[1] – Steven Sharif
2*There will not be different PvP and PvE gear types.[5]
3*Progression in the game might require PvE elements.
4*It is unlikely that a player could purely focus on just PvP or just PvE.
5*There is a balance between PvP and PvE in Ashes of Creation.
Main request:
In a PvX game, PvP, PvE and crafting are all connected and balanced togheter. Currently, there is no way to obtain gear pieces from PvP, you only get materials from certain activities. But, PvE players have acces to materials, and finished gear pieces that will drop regulary.
I want there to be atleast a few gear pieces, a weapon and cloak perhaps, that are obtainable through PvP activity. In the form of crafting recepies that are unlocked or in the form of gear vendors of some kind.
I also want PvP players to get rewarded more often than once every 6 months as it currently stands.
Unfair advantage for PvE players
Currently, PvE players are favoured in regards to gearing in AoC. You can obain finished gear pieces and materials from quests, dungeons and raids every week. Without any problems at all, you can ignore every single piece of PvP activitity in the game and not be handicapped gear wise. Since 100% of gear comes from quests, dungeons raids and artisan classes you dont need to focus on any PvP activities to gear up.
You can not however, obtain a single piece of gear from sieges, wars, caravans or arenas. The only gear progression you get from PvP is once every 6 months in the form of enchants. This means that if you are a focused PvP player, your progression will be a lot slower than a focused PvE player. This is not balanced.
Rewarded for playing 80% PvE, punished for playing 80% PvP
A player that loves PvP and wants to dedicate the majority of his time doing PvP activities like caravans, sieges and wars will have a harder time gearing than a player that spends most of his time in dungeons and raids. Since you are rewarded gear from dungeons and raids, you always progress your character while doing these activities. But, a PvP player that works just as hard doing PvP activities, will never obtain a single piece of gear at the same rate as a PvE player.
Instead, I believe you should be awarded gear from PvE, Crafting and PvP in a balanced and fair way. If this is implemented properly, everybody wins. If the game stands as it is now, a big chunk of the PvP community will lose and have less fun.
The things I think are fun reward me better than the things you think are fun
If you hate PvP and only have fun doing PvE this is the game for you. You don't even need to touch PvP, just spam dungeon and raids over and over while picking flowers and chopping trees and you will have best in slots in no time!
But if you dare to hate PvE, and do not want to spam raids and dungeons, you are handicapped gear wise. This is not fair. There should be a progression balance between crafting, PvP and Pve.
Forcing people to PvE, rewarding people for ignoring PvP
If you want to be a competitive PvP guild or player, you will have to spend the majority of your time doing PvE content. Since most materials and all items comes from PvE, the most effective way to aquire said materials and items is to do PvE content. But, you get very little progression from focusing on PvP.
This system, has not a single drawback for people ignoring to do PvP activities but a massive drawback for people ignoring PvE content.
How would you feel as a PvE player, if the only way to progress effectivly in a game, was by playing PvP?
This is how many PvP players currently feel.
Counter arguments make no sense as it stands now
1: Unique PvP and PvE armor has no place in a PvX game
2. If we allow PvP gear, people will just stay AFK and do arenas
3. By offering PvP gear, people will ignore PvE content
Counter argument 1:
I do not want unique PvP gear. I want PvPers to be able to aquire certain items of equivalent power to PvE/Crafted gear by doing PvP activities like: Caravans, sieges, guild wars, bounty hunting and arenas. This can be limited to 3-4 item pieces. These items can be in the form of unlockable recepies you unlock by doing certain PvP activities.
Counter argument 2:
The only afk PvP activities are arenas. Caravans, sieges, wars and bounty hunting all require equivalent or even more dedication than PvE content. All these activities are open world and require you to go out and play just like PvE activities does.
Counter argument 3:
Just like all items do not come from PvE alone, all items do not have to come from PvP as well. By offering SOME gear pieces from PvP, as much as PvE, you have balance, which is what PvX stands for.
Solutions everyone wins on
1. Reward PvP players more often than once every 6 months. Since PvE players are rewarded with gear and materials every week, PvP players should also be rewarded in someway every week. PvP players should at the very least be rewarded once every month.
2. Offer unlockable or buyable recepies that award gear based on your PvP activities in Caravans, Arenas, sieges, wars and bounty hunting. These recepies should offer gear that is equal to the equivalent difficulty in PvE but have a cosmetic difference to show your PvP achivments.
By making the rewards as recepies, you do not screw up the value from crafters and gatherers, since they are still needed to make the gear people unlock with PvP.
Why?
Because PvP players want to have some form of gear progression from PvP. It does not have to be a lot. It just has to be there in some form or another.
PvP players want to display gear they earned from doing what they love. I don't want to use gear I only got from crafting and PvE, I want to use gear I got from doing what I love, and that is PvE, PvP and crafting.
Cosmetic difference in gear that is awarded in PvP will make the PvP community happier. People will be able to show their passion and interests in the way their gear looks. This will motivate people to play more PvP and not take ANYTHING from people that want to play PvE.
1*We like to really refer to ourselves as a PvX game, because in those systems of PvP, PvE, crafting they're all intertwined: They're interdependent on each other... Our system of development really requires some interdependence there between those things. You're going to need a crafter to give you the best items. You're going to need PvPers to secure cities and castles. You're gonna need PvErs to take down those world bosses for those materials to craft.[1] – Steven Sharif
2*There will not be different PvP and PvE gear types.[5]
3*Progression in the game might require PvE elements.
4*It is unlikely that a player could purely focus on just PvP or just PvE.
5*There is a balance between PvP and PvE in Ashes of Creation.
Main request:
In a PvX game, PvP, PvE and crafting are all connected and balanced togheter. Currently, there is no way to obtain gear pieces from PvP, you only get materials from certain activities. But, PvE players have acces to materials, and finished gear pieces that will drop regulary.
I want there to be atleast a few gear pieces, a weapon and cloak perhaps, that are obtainable through PvP activity. In the form of crafting recepies that are unlocked or in the form of gear vendors of some kind.
I also want PvP players to get rewarded more often than once every 6 months as it currently stands.
Unfair advantage for PvE players
Currently, PvE players are favoured in regards to gearing in AoC. You can obain finished gear pieces and materials from quests, dungeons and raids every week. Without any problems at all, you can ignore every single piece of PvP activitity in the game and not be handicapped gear wise. Since 100% of gear comes from quests, dungeons raids and artisan classes you dont need to focus on any PvP activities to gear up.
You can not however, obtain a single piece of gear from sieges, wars, caravans or arenas. The only gear progression you get from PvP is once every 6 months in the form of enchants. This means that if you are a focused PvP player, your progression will be a lot slower than a focused PvE player. This is not balanced.
Rewarded for playing 80% PvE, punished for playing 80% PvP
A player that loves PvP and wants to dedicate the majority of his time doing PvP activities like caravans, sieges and wars will have a harder time gearing than a player that spends most of his time in dungeons and raids. Since you are rewarded gear from dungeons and raids, you always progress your character while doing these activities. But, a PvP player that works just as hard doing PvP activities, will never obtain a single piece of gear at the same rate as a PvE player.
Instead, I believe you should be awarded gear from PvE, Crafting and PvP in a balanced and fair way. If this is implemented properly, everybody wins. If the game stands as it is now, a big chunk of the PvP community will lose and have less fun.
The things I think are fun reward me better than the things you think are fun
If you hate PvP and only have fun doing PvE this is the game for you. You don't even need to touch PvP, just spam dungeon and raids over and over while picking flowers and chopping trees and you will have best in slots in no time!
But if you dare to hate PvE, and do not want to spam raids and dungeons, you are handicapped gear wise. This is not fair. There should be a progression balance between crafting, PvP and Pve.
Forcing people to PvE, rewarding people for ignoring PvP
If you want to be a competitive PvP guild or player, you will have to spend the majority of your time doing PvE content. Since most materials and all items comes from PvE, the most effective way to aquire said materials and items is to do PvE content. But, you get very little progression from focusing on PvP.
This system, has not a single drawback for people ignoring to do PvP activities but a massive drawback for people ignoring PvE content.
How would you feel as a PvE player, if the only way to progress effectivly in a game, was by playing PvP?
This is how many PvP players currently feel.
Counter arguments make no sense as it stands now
1: Unique PvP and PvE armor has no place in a PvX game
2. If we allow PvP gear, people will just stay AFK and do arenas
3. By offering PvP gear, people will ignore PvE content
Counter argument 1:
I do not want unique PvP gear. I want PvPers to be able to aquire certain items of equivalent power to PvE/Crafted gear by doing PvP activities like: Caravans, sieges, guild wars, bounty hunting and arenas. This can be limited to 3-4 item pieces. These items can be in the form of unlockable recepies you unlock by doing certain PvP activities.
Counter argument 2:
The only afk PvP activities are arenas. Caravans, sieges, wars and bounty hunting all require equivalent or even more dedication than PvE content. All these activities are open world and require you to go out and play just like PvE activities does.
Counter argument 3:
Just like all items do not come from PvE alone, all items do not have to come from PvP as well. By offering SOME gear pieces from PvP, as much as PvE, you have balance, which is what PvX stands for.
Solutions everyone wins on
1. Reward PvP players more often than once every 6 months. Since PvE players are rewarded with gear and materials every week, PvP players should also be rewarded in someway every week. PvP players should at the very least be rewarded once every month.
2. Offer unlockable or buyable recepies that award gear based on your PvP activities in Caravans, Arenas, sieges, wars and bounty hunting. These recepies should offer gear that is equal to the equivalent difficulty in PvE but have a cosmetic difference to show your PvP achivments.
By making the rewards as recepies, you do not screw up the value from crafters and gatherers, since they are still needed to make the gear people unlock with PvP.
Why?
Because PvP players want to have some form of gear progression from PvP. It does not have to be a lot. It just has to be there in some form or another.
PvP players want to display gear they earned from doing what they love. I don't want to use gear I only got from crafting and PvE, I want to use gear I got from doing what I love, and that is PvE, PvP and crafting.
Cosmetic difference in gear that is awarded in PvP will make the PvP community happier. People will be able to show their passion and interests in the way their gear looks. This will motivate people to play more PvP and not take ANYTHING from people that want to play PvE.
7
Comments
*I am aware you, as a PvPer will get resources from doing PvP activities.
*I am not saying PvP should "drop" finished gear pieces
*I am aware corrupted players drop finished gear, but this will not be reliable source of progression since corrupted players will easiliy avoid this system. Corrupted players that have not put their gear in a safe place before getting corrupted will be very rare.
The problem is that as a PVE player, you get FINISHED gear, materials and everything you need by exclusivly playing PvE. You have no real progression drawbacks by ignoring PvP entirely. This is not the case for PvP players. This creates an unfair balance where you are handicapped if you spend a majority of your time playing PvP, since the rewards are simply lesser than PvE.
A solution is to track your PvP activity either every month or every week (instead of the currently planned 6 months) and award unlockable recepies that are competitive with PvE drops. These recepies do not need to offer gear for every slot, instead, a few major ones like helm, shoulder and weapon would suffice.
This gear only needs to visually distinctive to the PvE gear to show people you are a PvP player. The gear is supposed to be competitive with PvE dropped gear, not superior.
This system will not change anything in the game at all, except making PvP players happier.
I'm fine with forcing PvE. The game already forces PvP so it's only fair that PvPers have to engage in PvE for gear.
U.S. East
There is progression in PvP. Every 6 months, the best PvP players will get rewards in the form of specific PvP augments and enchants that increase your power.
While the game forces PvP, its not the same as the issue I presented.
The issue is that you have to do PvE to gear, but can't get gear from PvP.
In a PvX game, pvp and pve should be balanced.
What you think PvX means is not really relevant, the only thing that matters if what steven thinks PvX means, and I wrote it down for you.
There is an unbalanced favor for people who decide to ignore PvP. Almost not a single drawback.
If you ignore PvE, you cant even play the game.
Since steven said there should be balance here, it should. Currently there is no balance here.
What are you even talking about, what are you trying to say with this post, dude. It sounds like you are creating imagined realities where you're persecuted in scenarios you yourself invented.
Should arenas(a mini game) drop gear? This is not part of the world. The rest of the world does drop stuff.
What are you looking for specifically?
What exactly in my post is a imaginative reality?
"You can make large amounts of money through PvP content and use that money to buy gear."
Does not change anything I said in the post, read again.
"You even have the possibility of directly acquiring gear through PvP encounters."
This is true, but not even remotly close on how easy it is to aquire gear directly from PvE. Corrupted players will exploit the gear drop system anyways which will make it useless.
"winning gives you a material benefit as a PvP player"
A lot less, than a PvE player would get.
No, arenas should not drop gear. It makes me laugh, you did not even read the post. Everything is explained in great detail there. Atleast try to be funny lol
In arenas
U.S. East
Firstly, is it so hard for you to read the post? Secondly, who is talking about PvP drops at all?
Currently, AoC has a pvp activity tracker. Once every 6 month, your combined effort in PvP will reward you with different types of gear augments and enchantsments that will make you more powerful in PvP.
In my post, I explained an alternative system. Want me to explain it again since it seems so hard to simply read the "solutions" part of my post?
never said that.
What makes you think that?
Let's not go crazy with the "This is unbalanced and it should be reworked!!!" when we didnt even touched the game and nobody knows how it will turn out when the entire playerbase is making this PvX work. Im not saying you dont have good points, and im very excited for this game too, but let's wait at least to beta stage to talk about balance.
The system I presented will make it ingame eventually, I just want the devs to see the problem so they are prepared. Eventually they will realize the currently planned features are incomplete.
I agree with you, we should wait. But this issue har already made a lot of people ignore the game.
And I dont think PvE should reward you with anything other than cosmetics and pets. (Just kidding but since you brought a werid argument up)
The latest information from steven is that there will be ENCHANTS and AUGMENTS from PVP you get every 6 months based on your performance.
Why do you only bring up arenas? Did you even read the post lol
I do think that crafting should be the avenue to support most pvp activities though. The problem then becomes the materials and can open world normal materials and questings support those crafting needs?
Or if doing PVE raids where only the elite raid players can get the materials in order to craft neccessary gear to play pvp.
If crafting can provide the equivalent to what is needed in the open world with open world materials (normal pve dungoens and quests) to function in pvp then I should be good with doing normal pve stuff.
If elite raiding pve is the only way to get pvp gear (thats actually good or strong) then its kind of one sided since a lot of players may enjoy pve open world just not raiding, but they enjoy crafting and pvp and all the other social interactions.
I've always been of the mind that Raid gear should give the best raid style benifits but still be functional in pvp. But shouldnt dominate pvp as thats entirely counterproductive to the players who like to spend time casually playing and participating in sieges, node quests, and open world.
In my opinion at least
Crafting is going to have as much of a presence as it does in Ragnarok Online. There were classes meant to craft and nothing else. AoC probably won't have classes meant for it, but the focus on crafting is a big thing.
Getting overly defensive really destroys your points though.
U.S. East
1 No
2 you
Everything and I mean everything PVP related in Ashes will drop materials or gear (depending on corruption level) EXCEPT arenas they drop augments and enchants based on performance.
So if your looking for leader boards and and a PVP cosmetics vendor say so. Personally I don't think that would be a bad idea and might get more people involved in arenas.
I give up, we are on two completly different places in this discussion. We are not even remotly discussing the same issue and you are not even close to the discussion i presented in this post.
Read the post for a third time then
Hint: read the solutions part if you find it boring to read the other stuff.
Solutions everyone wins on
1. Reward PvP players more often than once every 6 months. Since PvE players are rewarded with gear and materials every week, PvP players should also be rewarded in someway every week. PvP players should at the very least be rewarded once every month.
2. Offer unlockable or buyable recepies that award gear based on your PvP activities in Caravans, Arenas, sieges, wars and bounty hunting. These recepies should offer gear that is equal to the equivalent difficulty in PvE but have a cosmetic difference to show your PvP achivments.
By making the rewards as recepies, you do not screw up the value from crafters and gatherers, since they are still needed to make the gear people unlock with PvP.
Why?
Because PvP players want to have some form of gear progression from PvP. It does not have to be a lot. It just has to be there in some form or another.
Sooooo your looking for pvp vendor that sells stuff based on how you do in pvp?
Tell me you didn't write a novel to say that little bit.
You need to pvp in raids too when someone comes along to contest. Thats the whole point of pvx. And you need to do pve anyway for leveling and working off xp debt after death. You are always "forced to pve" in this game, at every level.
So, even if you got a drop every time you get a kill to trade for recipes at the honor vendor, you would still need to pve at least ocassionally. Heck, raiders would NEED pvp savvy players in order to contest properly. You do the math.
The example I gave is kind of like you enter a castle and it instantly marks u corrupt so if you die you lose everything. But u can loot the castle for decent augments etc etc. High risk high reward. Kind of like the wilderness from RuneScape or the dark zone from division.
Also, by PvPing other nodes, guilds, caravans, or mules, you can steal mats from any of them if they are killed/destroyed. In the case of node PvP, you effectively get to control trade routes which supply you with a renewable source of income via trade routes and control of higher tier resources.
Basically, you can become much richer than non-PvPers through these mechanisms, and since there is no PvP or PvE specific gear, then it's certainly possible to afford better gear than non-PvPers.
You can not ignore PVP as a PVE players.
Node Sieges, caravans, Guild wars.
If a PVE player wants to transport his goods its not his choice if other players attack his caravan and optain his hard farmed ressources.
In the same argument as PVP players get rewards for hunting down caravans and winning node sieges.
The reward are ressources of the caravan / the destroyed node.
These ressources allow you to either craft the gear yourself of trade them for gear.
So rather then imbalance towards PVE the imbalance is towards PVP as PVP is forced on PVE players in nearly every aspect of the game.
Wait didnt you give the same argument?
Then we allready have perfect Balance as Both PVE and PVP players are forced to do the oposite.
Its Fine, just leave it as it is.