Greetings, glorious adventurers! If you're joining in our Alpha One spot testing, please follow the steps here to see all the latest test info on our forums and Discord!
Options
A cosmetic shop is bad
gobbals
Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Hello, this is a post where i will try to say that a cosmetics shop is Pay to win in an mmorpg. There might be some bad english we'll see.
Tl;dr at the end.
We need to first think about what constitutes winning in an mmorpg. What is the easiest way of telling if someone is winning in an mmorpg?
Well that is easy, they look awesome.
If that is true then a cosmetic shop in an mmorpg would be PTW especially if those cosmetics look as cool as the best gear you can get in the game.
Actually a cosmetic shop is in some ways worse than PTW, because it gives you an hollow illution of winning.
A cosmetic shop also underminds the most important thing in an mmorpg, prestige.
Showing you are better than others is THE most important thing in a community based mmo. Why do you think people in vanilla wow and classic wow with the best and coolest gear just hang out in the most populated areas?
A cosmetic shop is the antithesis of prestige, there is NOTHING speciall about someone paying to get something instantly to "skip the grind".
The items would be known and you would be looked down upon by those who actually EARNED their cool rweards.
If a cosmetic shop is added then the people making the game have an financial INCENTIVE to make everything else look worse.
Why do you think the cosmetic shop is there for? To sell cosmetics (obviously).
Do you think there is no way that anyone will buy it? Well that is sadly not true because there WILL be casuals and stupid people that will buy them. If nobody buys the copsmetics then the game will suffer to make sure people use the cosmetics shop.
There is barely anything to be gained by having a cosmetics shop in an mmorpg, those who buy the cosmetics get an hollow victory for about a minute, those who do not buy them look down upon those who do. Those who do not buy them may risk looking like shit.
If you are going to argue that "it's just cosmetics" then why don't we all just wear potato sacks and wield sticks? If you want a great explanation to why it's not "just cosmetics" then Jim Sterling has a great video on it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce5CDrq4dGg
The only real positive with the cosmetic shop would be intrepid earn some more money. That COULD translate to a better game, but what is the probability of that? Microtransactions don't have a place in mmorpgs, they can only make the game worse. There are some mircotransactions that are close to ok like: Namechange, server change and maybe race and gender change.
Please consider to rather add a box cost instread. A box cost that would include 1 month of subscription, maybe 20$ - 30$.
Or the BEST alternative for the players, just don't add a cosmetics shop.
TL;DR - A cosmetics shop in mmorpgs is PAY TO WIN and the players get a worse experience.
Tl;dr at the end.
We need to first think about what constitutes winning in an mmorpg. What is the easiest way of telling if someone is winning in an mmorpg?
Well that is easy, they look awesome.
If that is true then a cosmetic shop in an mmorpg would be PTW especially if those cosmetics look as cool as the best gear you can get in the game.
Actually a cosmetic shop is in some ways worse than PTW, because it gives you an hollow illution of winning.
A cosmetic shop also underminds the most important thing in an mmorpg, prestige.
Showing you are better than others is THE most important thing in a community based mmo. Why do you think people in vanilla wow and classic wow with the best and coolest gear just hang out in the most populated areas?
A cosmetic shop is the antithesis of prestige, there is NOTHING speciall about someone paying to get something instantly to "skip the grind".
The items would be known and you would be looked down upon by those who actually EARNED their cool rweards.
If a cosmetic shop is added then the people making the game have an financial INCENTIVE to make everything else look worse.
Why do you think the cosmetic shop is there for? To sell cosmetics (obviously).
Do you think there is no way that anyone will buy it? Well that is sadly not true because there WILL be casuals and stupid people that will buy them. If nobody buys the copsmetics then the game will suffer to make sure people use the cosmetics shop.
There is barely anything to be gained by having a cosmetics shop in an mmorpg, those who buy the cosmetics get an hollow victory for about a minute, those who do not buy them look down upon those who do. Those who do not buy them may risk looking like shit.
If you are going to argue that "it's just cosmetics" then why don't we all just wear potato sacks and wield sticks? If you want a great explanation to why it's not "just cosmetics" then Jim Sterling has a great video on it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce5CDrq4dGgThe only real positive with the cosmetic shop would be intrepid earn some more money. That COULD translate to a better game, but what is the probability of that? Microtransactions don't have a place in mmorpgs, they can only make the game worse. There are some mircotransactions that are close to ok like: Namechange, server change and maybe race and gender change.
Please consider to rather add a box cost instread. A box cost that would include 1 month of subscription, maybe 20$ - 30$.
Or the BEST alternative for the players, just don't add a cosmetics shop.
TL;DR - A cosmetics shop in mmorpgs is PAY TO WIN and the players get a worse experience.
2
Comments
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
1. the normal ingame outfits looks as good or at least on par with the shop ones
2. if the shop outfits dont look like ingame ones with new colours
FIne, if the game does not suffer from this then it's ok. It looks promising and im still going to play it, im tired of wow and just want a new good game. Maybe my memory is faulty but i do not remember them saying there will be a cosmetic shop unill after the KS and summersale was done.
But yes, I do agree that part of an MMORPG is working hard to make your character look good by putting time into the game... not just dropping 20 bucks into the cosmetic shop every time you log in to the game.
There's a question in the ks faq section dated the same day the ks went live.
Everyone has their own goals.
I've been doing other things and just recently came back to see the progress.
I stand corrected.
You cant truly beat an enemy if you dont beat him on ALL THE FIELDS OF BATTLE!
For one, monthly cash shop content for sure contributes to FOMO, but at the same time, it radically limits the possible spending. There won't be a catalogue that dates back years, where you spend all your money trying to get it all, you're capped at whatever the flavour of the month is. And even then, the ability to simply buy what you like or seek out the equipment ewuivalent ingame makes it not at all the same as games like Overwatch, where your only real progression outside ranked is hidden in loot boxes of dubious worth.
So, you have a monthly fee and a cash shop hard cap. Not only that, but a cash shop that specifically only offers alternative looks to things that are available in the game through regular progression. I find that personally agreeable, though things can obviously change when details are revealed. If, for example, the prices are predatory, or the shop is full of stuff that looks way superior to its alternative, I'll for sure critisize it heavily.
Tl;dr: There's good and bad cosmetic shops, and this systems seems pretty ok so far.
I don't care that you look awesome if I oneshot you.
Edit: I would prefer no cosmetic shop, but If at least it's fair to the other players and purely cosmetic its okay.
But I understand why it exists and that the pros outweigh the cons so I am ok with it existing.
At the end of the day nothing is ever perfect, and this is the lesser but necessary evil.
If you think qbout BDO and Overwatch, cosmetics are a HUGE money sink. "Cosmetics don't matter" isn't a constructive attitude when discussing those payment models.
It highly diminishes the efforts of dedicated players when someone shows up next to them glowing like an angel with huge angel wings, clearly outshining their hard-earned end-game pauldrons and weapons.
The fact that animal husbandry exists in this game as a way to breed mounts and stuff (as far as the wiki and interviews have said) alongside cash shop mount cosmetics is very disturbing to me, because why tame and breed cool looking mounts when you can just buy a cool looking skin for a mount. Granted we don't know exactly how animal husbandry is going to work so take my complaint with a grain of salt.
I absolutely love GW2 as a game, but I'll be damned if I don't say the cosmetics and visual progression of the game has gotten out of hand. Absolutely none of the in-game armor even compares to cash shop outfits and items. You can't go anywhere without rainbows and bright shimmering bodies and animations bombarding your screen. On top of that ArenaNet has long given up on keeping cosmetics tied to the lore of GW2. People running around with angel wings and all kinds of crazy things that break immersion and would give RP players aneurysms.
We already see the angel/demon and fire/ice skins (https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Racial_skins) that kickstarter backers are getting, which is incredibly immersion-breaking, since (as far as we know) there are no angels or demons in any of the playable race's societies. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining that the kickstarter backers are getting rewards, I'm just using it as an already known example.
To sum up my worries on this is that I think Intrepid will go into this cosmetic shop with honest intentions but eventually slowly drift into visual seizure territory. I'd like to trust that they won't fall to the slippery slope that is visual creep, but I've seen it happen many times, and they're only human.
Edit: To clarify, I will still play regardless of the cash shop cosmetics or not, as I still play GW2 consistently too. I'm just aware I would enjoy the immersion far, far more in GW2 if everything was in-game-world-accurate.
"Better" is subjective. We don't know that for sure.
I don't quite understand you coment, sorry, but If Intrepid studios needs the money and is a good way for them to make extra cash I totally agree with it. I think it doesn't hurt anyone.
It could be possible.
With only around 30.000 subscribers, they would make around 450.000$ a month. That would let them pay for 90 developers with a salary of 5000$ a month (i dont know how much that is for americans, but that would be more then enough for germans).
Lets say that they will have around 70 developers at all times. That would let them have around 100.000$ for equipment and rent per month.
You’re right. “Better” is subjective, which is why this concept of “cosmetics are P2W” is so annoying. Some people really, really like their shining armor + sparkles out the ass, some people like their characters leaving bloodied footsteps and shadowy wisps in their wake, others like formal wear in the midst of a siege, and yet others are happiest with simple leather armor and a cloak.
Tastes are so absurdly subjective, trying to put a win condition on some particular cosmetic item that appeals to you, and may inspire cringing from other players, is pointless.
Personally I think that ape-lion-butterfly mount is ugly as hell, but Steven seems to like it. Is that Pay 2 Win for him?
I picked up those edgy purple shadow costumes from last fall, and I know some people might attack an edge lord on sight. Is that Pay 2 Lose?
Usually I keep outfits simple, and someone else might say that makes my characters boring, meanwhile I might be wishing I could turn off all their outfit’s vfx. Are we both losing? Are we both winning?
With this games crafting system i can see the majority of the population being very miss matched. The "skins" are a way for you to make your toon look a bit more matched/cohesive. I hope their are gear options, late game / hard craftable, that are so awesome they are a status symbol and you would never want to skin them. In Lineage i think of Draconic Gear.
Well put. But, I feel with this argument quite frankly EVERYTHING can be justified as "Pay to Win". E.g. we could argue we should be able to "earn" subscription time, otherwise paying for a sub is P2W (I felt ridiculous even typing this, but hopefully you can see my point here). We must draw the line somewhere.
Steven gave his definition of P2W and I for one agree with it. Anything which you can buy with Real Money that impacts your objective/systematic performance in the game (i.e. tankier tank, deeper dps, healord healer) is P2W.
Although I agree, we should be able to earn cosmetics and it would be nice if we could, I can't regard a cosmetic cash shop as P2W.
P.S. surely this is countered by the game's crafting system? Perhaps we'll be able to craft cosmetic items, which would then solve this issue for the most part.
First, Steven said the entire project is self funded, so no cosmetic shop is needed. Second, Steven said that the game and new content are entirely possible to be sustained with just a subscription fee model, so no cosmetic shop is needed. Third, IS is already working with a Russian video game publisher/studio so you're wrong there. Fourth, Steven said the cosmetic shop cash flow is only going to support extra features to the game, not the content which will be entirely funded by subscription fee model and his own money, so no cosmetic shop is needed.
"Needed" is the keyword here. The cosmetic shop isn't needed whatsoever. But with the inclusion of the cosmetic shop, the game can and most likely will be destroyed from it. Look at other games with cosmetic shops, they intentionally make the items in the game so much worse than the cosmetics which have hundreds of hours of effort poured into them so people will spend money on them. A new cosmetic mount in WoW for instance has an entirely unique skeleton, a unique model, has the best polygon count, has amazing resolution on the textures, etc. Then you get a mount from the new raid? It's a reskin of a reskin of a reskin from a mount 8 years ago and it's textures look like they belong back in 2004. That is what people fear will happen to IS if they leave this shop in. It might not be like that on Launch, but in 1 year? In 2 years? When half the subs have quit because the game wasn't their cup of tea? When the cosmetic shop is now IS' main source of cash flow? It's going to ruin the game. More effort will be put in cosmetics than in the game content, because the game content doesn't make money.