Death penalty seem too harsh?

I was reading about the death penalty and was surprised how severe it seems to be. While you can't de-level you get:

Experience debt
Skill and stat dampening
Lower health and mana
Lower gear proficiency
Reduction in drops from monsters
Durability loss
Drop a percentage of raw materials

This seems a bit excessive. I'm a player who likes to explore a lot, go off the beaten path and just see what's out there. I hate the feeling that I have to worry about incurring all these penalties for taking risks. If I was a designer I'd want players who seek to take risks, throw caution to the wind, engage powerful enemies, go explore an evil looking cave...without the constant fear of attaining these negative effects. It seems like it'll create an atmosphere of playing things safe, not taking risks, not exploring or being adventurous. I don't understand these types of penalties. I know people will say that death should have significance and to a point yes, but I think they should be rather minor (especially in pve). This is a video game, first and foremost, shouldn't it be about FUN? This just seems like it'll lead to frustration.

Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter.

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Sussurro

WoW's penalty for death was inconsequential. I was relieved to have such a forgiving penalty. I now think it may have been an error in judgement; a foundational decision that shaped contemporary WoW.

I think the developers know this, They're experimenting with a zone in the next expansion where you have the potential to lose all of the resource (Stygia) you need to progress your character if you die. You must retrieve the resource by doing a corpse run! The metrics that Blizzard have collected for Shadowlands show, comparatively, the highest interest in virtually any expansion to date. They'll also be implementing a procedural instance. It isn't lost on me how WoW will have a procedural instance in an expansion called "Shadowlands" and that we will be returning to "ICC" for the pre-patch event. I'm excited to play Shadowlands because I see the beginnings of a return to form, not just in WoW but in the industry.

I chose AoC because their passion is reminiscent of their predecessors, but their goals are so much more established and well defined. I encourage people to research how MMORPGs are developed so that the scales may fall from their eyes.

NelsonRebel

volsh wrote: »

There's no adventure if there's no risk

True. But there comes a point where you ask does this make the game better or more realistic?

Being more realistic isnt always a postive nor does it always make the game better. You should always want to make the game better since making a game more realistic is a self-defeating idea anyways in an online game where the objective is Massive Multiplayer and socialization. Its nice to have realism, if checked properly without being a source of inherent frustration

On the topic of the death penalties. At first glance it looked like the Corruption death penalties. So in my opinion, yes it looks to extreme if it mirrors what is essentially corruption penalty death.

However we have to keep in mind we dont know how the system works yet and Intrepid is building placeholders that can and will be adjusted once properly tested. So dont use the "First Pass" as the concrete be all end all. Because a lot of mechanics and placeholders will go through several different iterations before launch

Radzig

Let's break it down a bit.

[*] Experience debt
This depends on the amount loss and time spent to recuperate lost EXP.
For example; dying looses 4% exp. But 4% exp takes 1 week to recup, that's a bit rough, but if the content is there, and it's fun, loosing exp should be ok. It really depends on the exp curve they have set for each level and their goals for the game. It also influence if that also applies to Pvp deaths, Aggressive Actions resulting in death and exp loss? Sure. Getting pk'd? That's a bit much.

[*] Skill and stat dampening & Lower health and mana
Same as above for EXP.

Can be good, and should not influence your Group PvE that much. Should only really influence you in PvP.

Also, depends on how much and for how long. Otherwise, it's fine.

For example: 10m a la World of Warcraft Rez Sickness? Debuff time seems right, the hp/mana loss is a bit much though. I always thought you should at least be able to play, albeit a lot more carefully but you should definitely avoid PvP with this, it becomes a direction issue again, as to where they want to take this and a tuning issue down the lines in alphas/betas.

[*] Lower gear proficiency
I would need to see a more detailed explanation from the dev team on this, but coming from MMOs where you just LOST everything, or had a chance to loose 1 or 2 pieces of gear per death (10-20% chance kind of thing) it's not bad. It depends what's the mechanic to get it back or grind it back, because if its just permanent loss without any way to recup, that's more annoying than fun. It doesn't provide replay-ability at that point, unless gear is super easy to come by.

[*] Reduction in drops from monsters
I'm fine with this, as long as it's short enough to not cause you to go afk waiting that it drops and not harsh enough to cause the same problem. It should at least make it so you cant throw your body until you 80year old at a mob to get his special loot when you clearly cannot be there.

[*] Durability loss
I feel that's just normal MMO thing now a days. Doesn't seem harsh at all. Also, your body literally died, and your equipment would be fine? IMMERSION!! (jk)

[*] Drop a percentage of raw materials
Same thing as Drops Reductions for me.

In my opinion, an MMO without any risk while stepping into the world or even worse a dungeon where there is a potential for mistakes to be made, is not fun to play during the levelling process, however long that may be. There are even mechanics that can be implemented specifically for dungeons to help streamline this.

Cheers

Atama

Drokk wrote: »

I don't see how becoming weaker after dying can ever be a good thing. You're just out questing and can't quite kill a mob and die...next attempt you're even weaker. Your guild wipes on a raid boss, next pull you're all even weaker. The examples can go on and on. It incentivizes playing it safe. It rewards...cowardice. Not challenging yourself unless you know you'll come out on top.

It should reward cowardice. It absolutely should. It discourages stupid Leeroy tactics and face rolls. You should fear failing.

Are you saying you’ve never played an MMO that had res sickness before? I remember when every MMO had it, it was just the expectation. The reason why it existed was because the game wanted you to take it easy and wait before charging right back in there. Usually it was around 10 minutes or so. Long enough to maybe make you impatient, but it also ensured that death felt like a setback.

It also made you think, plan, strategize. You had to weigh your risks. After beating an enemy you could charge over to the next one immediately, or wait and heal up properly, With res sickness you had a real choice; if you were reckless and took on too much too fast you could actually lose time because you were forced to wait. Without it there is never a reason to not push the envelope every time.

It’s good to see it in this game. It makes it a big kid game.

Roko

I'm not saying that I think the death penalty is too harsh.

But even if it was I like harsh death penalties, imo death should sting. Maybe I have been playing a lot of full drop survival games, but I like death mattering.

EmoNagger

The death penalty is just fine, unless you never experience mmo with harsh death penalty before...

Grimfaldra

EmoNagger wrote: »

The death penalty is just fine, unless you never experience mmo with harsh death penalty before...

This.

The dividing line between "too harsh" and "just right" might be the people who played EQ. EQ had real corpse runs (unless you had someone who could summon it of course) and I still get PTSD from some of the runs I had to make.

Both sides have arguments that cannot be ignored, yet I'm still with the crowd that calls for clear risk vs. reward.

Being able to die towards a goal with minimal consequences is brushing me the wrong way. You should feel the pain if you were careless enough to die multiple times. And if you continue to do it, yes, the character should temporarily be crippled.

Aardvark

It’s hard to have a discussion about this when the fans just want to parrot back risk vs reward and refuse to hear what people are saying. It’s very possible for some types of risk vs reward to be fun and excighting while other types of risk vs reward just sucking and feeling more like punishment than anything else. Like everything in this game it will
Need to be tweaked to feel right

Tres

it doesn't seem harsh to me at all.

Warth

na, they are good.

might have to be adapted for siege scenarios though

Drokk wrote: »

Sussurro wrote: »

These penalties for death not only make death more weighty, they are preventative measures that keep motivated players from using death to exploit systems and mechanics. I believe the penalties become harsher upon successive deaths, so not all penalties would be activated for an occasional death.

Design the systems to not be exploited by death then...
Anyway, I'm just trying to think of scenarios where this kind of design is good, and I can't. But obviously that's my opinion. I'm just saying as a player I've always hated the feeling that I need to be overly cautious. I don't think it's particularly helpful in a video game. It creates what is, to me, the wrong kind of environment and atmosphere.
If you're trying to train or improve or challenge yourself in something...you don't make each failure cause the next attempt to be even harder. That's contradictory. If I'm trying to jump a 6 foot gap on a bike and don't make it I don't try 7 feet the next time. You do that and what happens? People just give up.

nah you won't try the 7 feet gab next time. But you might be slightly hurt from the crash, which weakens your ability to do 6 feet gab the next time around.

PlagueMonk

Atama wrote: »

Drokk wrote: »

I don't see how becoming weaker after dying can ever be a good thing. You're just out questing and can't quite kill a mob and die...next attempt you're even weaker. Your guild wipes on a raid boss, next pull you're all even weaker. The examples can go on and on. It incentivizes playing it safe. It rewards...cowardice. Not challenging yourself unless you know you'll come out on top.

It should reward cowardice. It absolutely should. It discourages stupid Leeroy tactics and face rolls. You should fear failing.

Are you saying you’ve never played an MMO that had res sickness before? I remember when every MMO had it, it was just the expectation. The reason why it existed was because the game wanted you to take it easy and wait before charging right back in there. Usually it was around 10 minutes or so. Long enough to maybe make you impatient, but it also ensured that death felt like a setback.

It also made you think, plan, strategize. You had to weigh your risks. After beating an enemy you could charge over to the next one immediately, or wait and heal up properly, With res sickness you had a real choice; if you were reckless and took on too much too fast you could actually lose time because you were forced to wait. Without it there is never a reason to not push the envelope every time.

It’s good to see it in this game. It makes it a big kid game.

Could you imagine what would happen if you only ever had one life? Now I'm not saying one and done BUT what about if there was simply no respawn timer? You would have to find someone to come rez your body. Now THAT would be hardcore. So people complaining about a minor penalty for a few mins BECAUSE THEY DIED.....

jsolo

I agree , it great that a MMO has gone back to the root where dyeing has consequences to long the WOW and Casual MMO gameplay has ruin the experience of playing in the game world were there is risk.

Hansrutger

I'd like to see this in action before commenting too much about it, but I do see the concerns. However, there is an audience for this kind of play style, so much that a private server in WoW altered the client so that when you die you drop items. Rust is a good example too and it's interesting how they are slowly moving into the RPG genre. But I think for now these penalties are reasonable.

Atama

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Drokk wrote: »

I don't see how becoming weaker after dying can ever be a good thing. You're just out questing and can't quite kill a mob and die...next attempt you're even weaker. Your guild wipes on a raid boss, next pull you're all even weaker. The examples can go on and on. It incentivizes playing it safe. It rewards...cowardice. Not challenging yourself unless you know you'll come out on top.

It should reward cowardice. It absolutely should. It discourages stupid Leeroy tactics and face rolls. You should fear failing.

Are you saying you’ve never played an MMO that had res sickness before? I remember when every MMO had it, it was just the expectation. The reason why it existed was because the game wanted you to take it easy and wait before charging right back in there. Usually it was around 10 minutes or so. Long enough to maybe make you impatient, but it also ensured that death felt like a setback.

It also made you think, plan, strategize. You had to weigh your risks. After beating an enemy you could charge over to the next one immediately, or wait and heal up properly, With res sickness you had a real choice; if you were reckless and took on too much too fast you could actually lose time because you were forced to wait. Without it there is never a reason to not push the envelope every time.

It’s good to see it in this game. It makes it a big kid game.

Could you imagine what would happen if you only ever had one life? Now I'm not saying one and done BUT what about if there was simply no respawn timer? You would have to find someone to come rez your body. Now THAT would be hardcore. So people complaining about a minor penalty for a few mins BECAUSE THEY DIED.....

That might be interesting if you could play as a ghost wandering around and begging for a resurrection.

That reminds me of EQ, where you could get a necromancer to cast a spell to help you find your corpse. There was no automatic waypoint and sometimes you couldn’t remember where it was, or you go where it was but can’t find it because you were behind a bush or something.

I like the idea of making death actually sting but there is a dividing line between impactful failure and a game just having mechanics that are a pain in the ass. I’m sure where that line falls will vary from player to player.

Hystorix

I think it’s not enough but it’s the best of any mainstream mmos

Ziu

I don’t think it’s as good as you guys think. Many people will travel in groups all the time. It’s basically multi wilderness everywhere. Dying will be very common especially in the beginning. If the penalty for a low level is even a little bit, it can cause people to feel stuck at their level unless they constantly group with other people. I don’t think that’s very healthy to basically have to travel with a group for protection literally everywhere you go.
I think there should be LITTLE TO NO death penalty from the beginner levels to the mid levels, while later levels is when the penalty from dying starts to grow.

Foogle

Strongly disagree, especially when you can lose the negative-ness by dying or by grinding some mobs with protection from friends/allies.

Personally I think it's a great system.

PlagueMonk

Atama wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Drokk wrote: »

I don't see how becoming weaker after dying can ever be a good thing. You're just out questing and can't quite kill a mob and die...next attempt you're even weaker. Your guild wipes on a raid boss, next pull you're all even weaker. The examples can go on and on. It incentivizes playing it safe. It rewards...cowardice. Not challenging yourself unless you know you'll come out on top.

It should reward cowardice. It absolutely should. It discourages stupid Leeroy tactics and face rolls. You should fear failing.

Are you saying you’ve never played an MMO that had res sickness before? I remember when every MMO had it, it was just the expectation. The reason why it existed was because the game wanted you to take it easy and wait before charging right back in there. Usually it was around 10 minutes or so. Long enough to maybe make you impatient, but it also ensured that death felt like a setback.

It also made you think, plan, strategize. You had to weigh your risks. After beating an enemy you could charge over to the next one immediately, or wait and heal up properly, With res sickness you had a real choice; if you were reckless and took on too much too fast you could actually lose time because you were forced to wait. Without it there is never a reason to not push the envelope every time.

It’s good to see it in this game. It makes it a big kid game.

Could you imagine what would happen if you only ever had one life? Now I'm not saying one and done BUT what about if there was simply no respawn timer? You would have to find someone to come rez your body. Now THAT would be hardcore. So people complaining about a minor penalty for a few mins BECAUSE THEY DIED.....

That might be interesting if you could play as a ghost wandering around and begging for a resurrection.

That reminds me of EQ, where you could get a necromancer to cast a spell to help you find your corpse. There was no automatic waypoint and sometimes you couldn’t remember where it was, or you go where it was but can’t find it because you were behind a bush or something.

I like the idea of making death actually sting but there is a dividing line between impactful failure and a game just having mechanics that are a pain in the ass. I’m sure where that line falls will vary from player to player.

I never played EQ but I heard stories about corpse runs.

Obviously we would prefer things to be a bit more on the difficult side, old school style

; Single life, arrows for bows, etc

I bet we are in the minority though.....sadly.

nidriks

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Drokk wrote: »

I don't see how becoming weaker after dying can ever be a good thing. You're just out questing and can't quite kill a mob and die...next attempt you're even weaker. Your guild wipes on a raid boss, next pull you're all even weaker. The examples can go on and on. It incentivizes playing it safe. It rewards...cowardice. Not challenging yourself unless you know you'll come out on top.

It should reward cowardice. It absolutely should. It discourages stupid Leeroy tactics and face rolls. You should fear failing.

Are you saying you’ve never played an MMO that had res sickness before? I remember when every MMO had it, it was just the expectation. The reason why it existed was because the game wanted you to take it easy and wait before charging right back in there. Usually it was around 10 minutes or so. Long enough to maybe make you impatient, but it also ensured that death felt like a setback.

It also made you think, plan, strategize. You had to weigh your risks. After beating an enemy you could charge over to the next one immediately, or wait and heal up properly, With res sickness you had a real choice; if you were reckless and took on too much too fast you could actually lose time because you were forced to wait. Without it there is never a reason to not push the envelope every time.

It’s good to see it in this game. It makes it a big kid game.

Could you imagine what would happen if you only ever had one life? Now I'm not saying one and done BUT what about if there was simply no respawn timer? You would have to find someone to come rez your body. Now THAT would be hardcore. So people complaining about a minor penalty for a few mins BECAUSE THEY DIED.....

That might be interesting if you could play as a ghost wandering around and begging for a resurrection.

That reminds me of EQ, where you could get a necromancer to cast a spell to help you find your corpse. There was no automatic waypoint and sometimes you couldn’t remember where it was, or you go where it was but can’t find it because you were behind a bush or something.

I like the idea of making death actually sting but there is a dividing line between impactful failure and a game just having mechanics that are a pain in the ass. I’m sure where that line falls will vary from player to player.

I never played EQ but I heard stories about corpse runs.

Obviously we would prefer things to be a bit more on the difficult side, old school style ; Single life, arrows for bows, etc

I bet we are in the minority though.....sadly.

Can't beat an EQ corpse run.

- 24 people running back in to Unrest to get their corpse after another train.

- Running halfway across Kunark to get your corpse because, as a ranger, you could only bind in a couple of places.

- Wiped in a dungeon and the whole group runs back as fast as is humanly possible to get that great camp sport before anyone else. Fighting off the hoards naked was a real social builder.

- Or as I did. Binding your druid in Nagy's lair so you can be a star and port people home. Then die the next day and wake up surrounded by fire giants. I think I lost half a level before I force quit the game and called a GM.

Oh EQ, my old friend. Those were some memories. Dying makes you stronger.

Atama

I remember dying in EQ from some floating grim reaper thing twice my level. I snuck back to get my corpse, and you could pull your corpse to your location if you were close enough with a /drag command. Well of course the reaper thing saw me and came at me, I spammed the /drag command as I ran away. Other players got the pleasure of seeing a halfling wearing only a loin cloth running past them, dragging his armored body, as a giant flying grim reaper ghost chased him. Good times.

The reason you’d have to do stuff like that is that if you died, your corpse was left with everything you carried. You had absolutely nothing. You had to go back and loot it one thing at a time. If you died in a dangerous place (which is the case 90% of the time, you don’t often die where things are safe) you had to be wary that whatever killed you didn’t try it again, and this time you have no weapons or armor to defend yourself. It wasn’t at all unusual to die multiple times trying to get your stuff back.

I don’t expect AoC to be that rough with death penalties. I don’t want them to be either. But I do want something harsher than you normally see. It sure was an adrenaline rush at times trying to get your stuff back, I’ll admit that.

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