Death penalty seem too harsh?

Rhaelah

@Tyrantor Wow, I didnt think of it like that. It does have the same effect as de-leveling without actually de-leveling. I kinda like that. You could make the argument that it would be fun to hear/see the level up again, but thats trivial.

I haven't heard about this "non-combatant" PvP scenario youre talking about or that someone will be able to loot my corpse even if they haven't dealt any damage to me(idk how I feel about this one, I'd need to hear some points made on it).

And I still dont like the idea of just waiting out debuffs, even for PvP, especially world PvP. Tying it to exp loss would make it so that PvP encounters happen less often between the same participants effectively deeming one party the winner for the time being. I can see however, someone being targetted for their debuffs. Unless, debuffs/buffs arent shown to anyone but yourself(which I hope its this way).

I dont see how you came to the conclusion that youre more likely to die from NPCs than other players?

Ventharien

Rhaelah wrote: »

@Tyrantor Wow, I didnt think of it like that. It does have the same effect as de-leveling without actually de-leveling. I kinda like that. You could make the argument that it would be fun to hear/see the level up again, but thats trivial.

I haven't heard about this "non-combatant" PvP scenario youre talking about or that someone will be able to loot my corpse even if they haven't dealt any damage to me(idk how I feel about this one, I'd need to hear some points made on it).

And I still dont like the idea of just waiting out debuffs, even for PvP, especially world PvP. Tying it to exp loss would make it so that PvP encounters happen less often between the same participants effectively deeming one party the winner for the time being. I can see however, someone being targetted for their debuffs. Unless, debuffs/buffs arent shown to anyone but yourself(which I hope its this way).

I dont see how you came to the conclusion that youre more likely to die from NPCs than other players?

You can't wait out the debuffs as they currently stand. You need to repay the exp death, or work off corruption, or die to lose corruption, but still have to deal with exp debt, at a magnified degree.

And an easy way to think of how you could die more to pve than pvp, is the world is massive with little faster travel. Your chance of running into someone out in the woods is less than it might be in more concentrated games.

Tyrantor

@Rhaelah well it just seems logical to me that you will purposefully engage more PVE content on the journey to max level than PVP giving a greater degree of failure/death. While it's completely possible that someone not only plays overly cautions during their leveling based on most MMOs I've played PVE death happens a reasonable amount on the journey to max level.

Now if you seek out PVP constantly then the opposite may be true. I think the take away here however is that any complaints about PvP death penalty seems laughable considering it will be each players choice to reduce their penalty by 50% by engaging someone. So if death is inevitable - fight back and the PvP death penalty just helped you.

Regarding the PVE death resulting in a corpse looting rights, it's possible you just drop items and there is no corpse.

I can't find specific information that says "If you die to a mob XYZ happens" the only take away here is that reading a non-combatant death results in the following "normal penalties" and this includes dropped materials/items.
A non-combatant (green player) who dies suffers normal penalties, which include:[3]
Experience debt (negative experience).[4]
Skill and stat dampening.[3]
Lower health and mana.[3]
Lower gear proficiency.[3]
Reduction in drop rates from monsters.[5]
Durability loss.[3]
Dropping a percentage of carried raw materials.[3]
This includes a percentage of items carried on the player's mule.[6]
This also includes a percentage of the certificates a player is carrying.[7]

Ventharien

goemoe wrote: »

In my view, no developer creates a full blown open pvp system, where players can be looted, when he does not like to grief other people. No one ever likes to be looted and the risk vs reward phrase is only a cheap excuse for it. When you create such a system you like such a system. It is that easy.

So Great Brae, I agree with you, lootable player pvp is bad design, if you want to be succesful in the long run. They will either face the toxic community that will arise eventually or they will strip the game from it. After all those years playing MMOs (with and without pvp with loot) I would guess, when lootable stays upt o the release, they will strip the game of it, when more than half of the initial players have left it. Like every other such game, the death penalties will be smoothed then as well.

I will wait and see. Without this loot crap (sorry only my view, nothing personal) I believe the game would losse nothing but attract way more people.

Remember here though, it is not full loot pvp drop. You arent losing gear, or items, or any finished crafted thing. Only gatherables. And with the limit of what you can personally carry, there is also a limit to what you could lose at any point in time. If you played WoW, think ores or flowers. And swinging at the attacker even once halves what you will drop, and be penalized with.

Rhaelah

@Tyrantor If the PvP system works so that anyone can engage in combat with anyone else at basically any time, I can definitely see guilds/roaming bands of players who's sole goal is to cause chaos/kill. Which is nice in some ways and not in others, thats the way the cookie crumbles. But that's why Im assuming that PvP deaths will be just as likely or even more so than PvE. I know this isn't WoW, but in WoW(Vanilla-WotLK) I died many more times to PvPers than mobs. Again, that is, if anyone can attack anyone at basically any time.

Sorry if my lack of knowledge led to some strange assumptions. I struggle with trying to know as little about a game before I play it, but also get involved with discussion and try to steer the game/community in the best direction. With so many terrible games, especially MMOs, I figure maybe its time to get involved instead of watching another one plunge into the depths. Not that this one is, quite the opposite.

@Ventharien That's good to hear, didnt know that.

Tyrantor

@Rhaelah It's possible seems more likely the guilds would focus on a specific place like a dungeon, I could be wrong but I sort of think it would be a big waste of time for a large group of players to just roam through zones killing the random solo/small group players with any sort of real consistency. The value for their time, to become corrupt over this with likely limited returns. I can see guilds camping dungeons or valuable resource areas.

WoW had no penalties for dying or killing people willy nilly so of course there would have been plenty of PvP deaths in that scenario especially considering after you died (or killed someone) the objective was generally to just run back and fight again with no concern for dying. It's why PvP in WoW was boring and inconsequential and it's also why you died so much (IMO).

Guild's will likely focus on waring with other guilds so they can avoid corruption.

Ventharien

@Rhaelah Cool that you're trying to keep a bit under wraps for yourself. Definitely nice to have surprises come release day. I'm the opposite, i need to know any piece of info that isn't a lore spoiler lol.

I don't see the situation you describe occurring for a while from the games start. It would involve an entire group of people sacrificing their progression (not leveling, upping crafting skills, assisting in the construction of their node, etc.) And few people if any will want to fall behind the average. This is usually more of a problem when you have large populations of established, rich, or bored players who can invest in multiple characters since their Main is now set.

I don't think we'll be there for a while, and when we test i'm sure we can all give good feedback to keep that sort of thing as limited as possible.

Rhaelah

@Tyrantor @Ventharien You both make very good points. Although, I still hope youre both right and wrong to a degree. I would enjoy a part of the community that is like the villain. Running around the world, hiding in the shadows, never knowing when and who they will decide to strike. Perhaps there could be a certain node type dedicated to a Thieves/Rogues guild type of thing where corruption within that node is null. The node might die off fast, or thrive in a strange way.

Tyrantor

Rhaelah wrote: »

@Tyrantor @Ventharien You both make very good points. Although, I still hope youre both right and wrong to a degree. I would enjoy a part of the community that is like the villain. Running around the world, hiding in the shadows, never knowing when and who they will decide to strike. Perhaps there could be a certain node type dedicated to a Thieves/Rogues guild type of thing where corruption within that node is null. The node might die off fast, or thrive in a strange way.

Military nodes will (sort) of act like that since corruption penalties will be reduced. The interesting thing I just noticed on the Military node wiki is it actually says corruption "duration" will be reduced - that leads me back to my initial though that some of the penalties are on a timer system specific to PvP.

Steven has said in the past that they want military nodes to encourage open world PvP around them so it's likely that if you house or travel near them there will be increased risk of PvP death compared to other node systems. I imagine the religion node will be the safest if they're going to have sort of a balance between safety and danger relation within the node system. So it will be interesting if the two nodes pop up near each other and are vying to become the parent node lol.

What will be fun in my opinion is when you do see people engage each other in the open world being able to jump into those fights with less risk because they would all be flagged for combat.

To sort of build on something you seem to want to see in the open world is, once guilds sort of establish themselves within nodes, they will develope their alliances/enemies with other guilds and flag eachother as waring, which will allow them to attack eachother with no corruption consequences. So you will likely see large groups of players/guilds roaming zones around their nodes searching for their enemies, in most cases they will probably leave randoms alone (not all cases) and that scenario will lead to intense moments for people not involved but witness it, you would have the option to run, hide, engage or just watch conflicts in the zone. It will likely look a lot like the faction based PvP in WoW that randoms can probably avoid if they want to by minding their own business.

Red_Tempest

That all seems like a lot at once.

Drokk wrote: »

1. Experience debt
2. Skill and stat dampening
3. Lower health and mana
4. Lower gear proficiency
5. Reduction in drops from monsters
6. Durability loss
7. Drop a percentage of raw materials

Remove 1,4, 5and 6 and keep the rest. Never been a fan of XP debt or loss. If money is harder to come by durability is usually enough of a deterrent for me.

Caeryl

SniperCT wrote: »

That all seems like a lot at once.

Drokk wrote: »

1. Experience debt
2. Skill and stat dampening
3. Lower health and mana
4. Lower gear proficiency
5. Reduction in drops from monsters
6. Durability loss
7. Drop a percentage of raw materials

Remove 1,4, 5and 6 and keep the rest. Never been a fan of XP debt or loss. If money is harder to come by durability is usually enough of a deterrent for me.

2-5 are directly related to how much of 1 you’ve accumulated by dying multiple times.

There are only three instant penalties from dying. The others all come from being stupid and dying multiple times before you work off the exp debt.

Merek

If Clerics can revive players when they're down, I don't have an issue with the penalties at all.

Xenotor

Merek wrote: »

If Clerics can revive players when they're down, I don't have an issue with the penalties at all.

there is a video from the devs with the caravan PVP. The cleric resurrects others several times.
Now we don't know the Death penalty for being resurrected,
I expect it to be less then normal.

Tyrantor

Xenotor wrote: »

Merek wrote: »

If Clerics can revive players when they're down, I don't have an issue with the penalties at all.

there is a video from the devs with the caravan PVP. The cleric resurrects others several times.
Now we don't know the Death penalty for being resurrected,
I expect it to be less then normal.

I doubt there is a death penalty in the Caravan, Castle, Node Sieges or Arena play.