I don't think ammo should be an additional upkeep on top of repair costs, since ranged weapons will not be able to be used point blank, additionally, rangers will have to use both melee and ranged, so on top of repairing bow and gathering ammo for it, they also have to repair their melee weapon. I don't see a reason to gimp ranged more then it is already, unless you want to call the repair bill for ranged weapons "ammo bill"
With regard to ammo as a consumable required in order to deal damage, I've had some thoughts:
If the value of the damage per unit of ammo consumed is effectively balanced, then the use of the ammo as a consumable could make things interesting. If mobs will simply be "bullet sponges" that require 30 minutes of constant dps to drop, then perhaps the concept of consumables would be too costly. I like the idea of large quivers, but I don't like the idea of infinite quivers (in general) as that cheapens the value of each shot. I get that boss fights will be different than trash mobs, but that doesn't mean that there can't be ammo recovery systems (such as some sort of talent that enables you to retrieve XX arrows from a downed target).
If we could consider the weight of the cost in relation to the amount of damage per shot, then there might be more purpose to being a physical-ranged damage dealer. This also opens an opportunity for crafting (supply & demand) if arrows/bolts are functionally necessary for ranged combat... not to mention different ammo types that could have additional added effects (poison tips, armor piercing, broad-heads, etc). If you plan to go hunting/skinning for the day, you'll probably want to load up on broad-heads... or if you want to go raiding heavily armored serpents with your guild, you might want to stock up on armor penetrating bodkin arrows. They don't have to be excessively expensive either and basic arrows could/should be simple to craft.
Example of the value of consumable ammo w/ fake numbers, compared to other DPS roles:
- Fighter deals 15-30 damage per strike w/ 2h weapon. (1 att/sec)
- Rogue deals 5-10 damage per strike w/ daggers (dual wield). (3-4 att/sec)
- Ranger deals 35-75 damage per strike w/ long bow. (0.5 att/sec)
Another consideration would be how augments could present players with the "infinite" sort of ammo if they have Ranger-Mage, Ranger-Summoner or Ranger-Bard for augments.
Example ideas:
- Ranger-Mage (Scion): Magic Arrows (chance to proc on any ranged attack to consume no ammo)
- Ranger-Summoner (Falconer): Conjure Arrow(s) (generates ammo of whatever type is in your quiver; chance to proc on attack); Retrieve Arrow(s) will trigger your Falcon/Raven pet to go find and return nearby arrows; can be used in combat.
- Ranger-Bard (Bowsinger): Guided Arrow (arrows have a higher chance to hit their target and a chance to return to your quiver automatically after striking a target).
If it had even the slightest boost to damage I am telling you now that I personally would be almost guaranteed to use it. If you are talking about an occasional inconvenience to keep ammo in it but I was guaranteed to do more damage then I can’t imagine using a different weapon. My tank will have a crossbow in that scenario.
That’s the problem when you reduce apples to make up for oranges. That’s why I proposed that weapons with ammo might just need to be repaired less often, because you’re replacing one type of maintenance with another. If you’re saying that carrying ammo meant you always had the highest-damage weapons in the game you will see everyone with one. That’s the mentality of gamers.
That’s why when you are trying to balance things you have to be careful to make sure you’re compensating in a relevant way. Otherwise it’s like you are flying a plane and you are compensating for steering too far to the left by pitching the plane upward. That won’t get you back on course, steer to the right instead.
I feel your points, but had some thoughts:
1 - Not everyone will have them (ranged weapons) if there is a minimum distance required to use them. If they are ineffective in melee range, then I don't see ANY tank having them (other than to pull with or for one-off situations). Not only that, but if they are 2-handed, then you'd be sacrificing a shield as a tank.
Having some sort of ranged attack as a utility for each class is great, but as a primary damage source, it may not be the most effective if there are different damage types / resists that require a diverse group.
Example: Would you want to drop 100 arrows into a slime cube or just have a mage fireball it once?
If the game does a shallow version of damage/resist mechanics, then I'd concede your point. I truly hope that there is depth to the design of damage & mitigation, but it will likely be some time before we see all the details on it.
2 - Your stance on less repair costs makes a lot sense, as melee weapons are constantly being used in a way that warrants repairs. I support this idea.
I will be running ranger as I do in most games. Honestly I would be disappointed if there was no ammo in the game. Ammo management can be fun mechanic and it would create a whole new profession. Imagine the amount of business you would get as an arrow merchant. Selling different types of arrows, some tipped with potions.
Let me go over some of the good points I saw in this thread.
1. Bows already have a repair cost and needing to keep up with ammo would add another form of maintenance.
Honestly I wouldn't mind having both but if one needs to go I'd much rather keep ammo. Would make sense that ranged weapons degrade slower. Make the basic arrows cheap and easy to create. Like made from just tier 1 wood and stone and craft 50 at a time. When you run low you go to any town buy a shitton from a merchant, store any extra you can't carry in your freehold and you will be good for days or even weeks.
2. Ammo taking up inventory space.
This is annoying, I agree. Simply solved by having extra quiver slots that can only hold arrows. If you have like 5 slots you can decide to either have 5 stacks of basic arrows to make sure you won't run out any time soon or have some special types you can switch between. The stack size can be changed on player feedback.
3. Depletable ammo would make the archetype less viable so it would have to be buffed to balance it.
In most games, the fact that you can use the weapon from range is the balancer. Melee weapons don't run out but you will have to be close to the enemy and thus be more prone to damage. Attacking from range will be more safe but it will consume ammo. From what I've seen ranger will be a high damage class anyways so damage won't need to be buffed further.
4. Running out of ammo mid combat.
I can't remember the last time that happened to me since I always keep a close watch on my ammo count and get more as soon as it has a risk of running low. So if I did run out and died cause of it I would have deserved that. And Ashes doesn't limit rangers to just bows, you could have a backup dagger incase you do run out.
5. How will you get ammo when you just started the game?
At first I thought of giving a set amount at start to begin with, but there will probably be some dumdums who waste it all without knowing how to get more and no backup melee weapon so that's not enough. Another option is to add a base skill that generates arrows. This would help with the previous point as well. For example:
Ranger skill (Placeholder name)
Tier 1: Create 10 basic arrows. Can only be used when quiver is empty, if the arrows are not used up in 30 sec they disappear. 30 sec cooldown.
Tier 2: Create 20 basic arrows. 30 sec cooldown.
Tier 3: Create 30 basic arrows. 30 sec cooldown.
Assuming you can shoot 1 arrow per second, tier 3 would equate to an infinite quiver. So if players really don't like gathering basic ammo they can use up some skillpoints. You would still need to buy better arrows.
2
AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I will be running ranger as I do in most games. Honestly I would be disappointed if there was no ammo in the game. Ammo management can be fun mechanic and it would create a whole new profession. Imagine the amount of business you would get as an arrow merchant. Selling different types of arrows, some tipped with potions.
Let me go over some of the good points I saw in this thread.
1. Bows already have a repair cost and needing to keep up with ammo would add another form of maintenance.
Honestly I wouldn't mind having both but if one needs to go I'd much rather keep ammo.
Of course you would. A bow doesn’t break and need replacement when you run out of arrows.
That’s why the idea of bows not needing repair hasn’t been suggested seriously. That would really overpower them if they become the weapon type you never have to replace. I suggested maybe they degrade slower, but all gear needs to have the risk of breaking for the system to work properly.
They can easily make an ammo system similar to Runescape, ammo would basically not take any more space than a sword would and some skills may not use any ammo. I think it would bring a good dynamic into the game using certain types of arrows for certain content or for certain effects in pvp like healing for some of the damage you deal or poison damage or maybe a chance to slow someone or something. Though I believe I heard that AoC will not have auto attacks which means it would have to be balanced so that some abilities will use more ammo than others and some might not at all. There could also be certain magical weapons that do not require ammo or have a chance to save ammo that you use.
It would be nice if Ammunition could be an equipable item. You start out with "Splintered Arrows" that deal 1-3dmg per shot. You can then buy or craft new types that you equip instead.
They would not have a certain amount, you would just have them equiped until you find better ones.
lunarskyMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Having ammo adds to the immersion but as a former hunter in wow that had to craft or buy my ammo constantly before raids etc it did get cumbersome after a while. It made old school Ranger in FFXI very cost-prohibitive as well. Nowadays I prefer systems where you don't need to carry and buy ammo.
Suppose the Quiver that you could equip would have "durability" somewhat reflective of an ammo count, which would then require repairs due to use. That may be a sort of compromise, but less interesting for immersion.
A few people have mentioned that there will be no auto-attack feature... but will we have basic attacks that utilize our weapons, or will every attack simply be an ability type move with a cooldown?
I have always liked the ammo system it seems more realistic but I've also thought that if there was some kind of epic quest or rare item to obtain some how like, " quiver of eternal arrows", where by you have endless amount of arrows that would be cool as long as it wasn't easy to get but not at the mercy of RNG either.
Comments
If the value of the damage per unit of ammo consumed is effectively balanced, then the use of the ammo as a consumable could make things interesting. If mobs will simply be "bullet sponges" that require 30 minutes of constant dps to drop, then perhaps the concept of consumables would be too costly. I like the idea of large quivers, but I don't like the idea of infinite quivers (in general) as that cheapens the value of each shot. I get that boss fights will be different than trash mobs, but that doesn't mean that there can't be ammo recovery systems (such as some sort of talent that enables you to retrieve XX arrows from a downed target).
If we could consider the weight of the cost in relation to the amount of damage per shot, then there might be more purpose to being a physical-ranged damage dealer. This also opens an opportunity for crafting (supply & demand) if arrows/bolts are functionally necessary for ranged combat... not to mention different ammo types that could have additional added effects (poison tips, armor piercing, broad-heads, etc). If you plan to go hunting/skinning for the day, you'll probably want to load up on broad-heads... or if you want to go raiding heavily armored serpents with your guild, you might want to stock up on armor penetrating bodkin arrows. They don't have to be excessively expensive either and basic arrows could/should be simple to craft.
Example of the value of consumable ammo w/ fake numbers, compared to other DPS roles:
- Fighter deals 15-30 damage per strike w/ 2h weapon. (1 att/sec)
- Rogue deals 5-10 damage per strike w/ daggers (dual wield). (3-4 att/sec)
- Ranger deals 35-75 damage per strike w/ long bow. (0.5 att/sec)
Another consideration would be how augments could present players with the "infinite" sort of ammo if they have Ranger-Mage, Ranger-Summoner or Ranger-Bard for augments.
Example ideas:
- Ranger-Mage (Scion): Magic Arrows (chance to proc on any ranged attack to consume no ammo)
- Ranger-Summoner (Falconer): Conjure Arrow(s) (generates ammo of whatever type is in your quiver; chance to proc on attack); Retrieve Arrow(s) will trigger your Falcon/Raven pet to go find and return nearby arrows; can be used in combat.
- Ranger-Bard (Bowsinger): Guided Arrow (arrows have a higher chance to hit their target and a chance to return to your quiver automatically after striking a target).
I feel your points, but had some thoughts:
1 - Not everyone will have them (ranged weapons) if there is a minimum distance required to use them. If they are ineffective in melee range, then I don't see ANY tank having them (other than to pull with or for one-off situations). Not only that, but if they are 2-handed, then you'd be sacrificing a shield as a tank.
Having some sort of ranged attack as a utility for each class is great, but as a primary damage source, it may not be the most effective if there are different damage types / resists that require a diverse group.
Example: Would you want to drop 100 arrows into a slime cube or just have a mage fireball it once?
If the game does a shallow version of damage/resist mechanics, then I'd concede your point. I truly hope that there is depth to the design of damage & mitigation, but it will likely be some time before we see all the details on it.
2 - Your stance on less repair costs makes a lot sense, as melee weapons are constantly being used in a way that warrants repairs. I support this idea.
Let me go over some of the good points I saw in this thread.
1. Bows already have a repair cost and needing to keep up with ammo would add another form of maintenance.
Honestly I wouldn't mind having both but if one needs to go I'd much rather keep ammo. Would make sense that ranged weapons degrade slower. Make the basic arrows cheap and easy to create. Like made from just tier 1 wood and stone and craft 50 at a time. When you run low you go to any town buy a shitton from a merchant, store any extra you can't carry in your freehold and you will be good for days or even weeks.
2. Ammo taking up inventory space.
This is annoying, I agree. Simply solved by having extra quiver slots that can only hold arrows. If you have like 5 slots you can decide to either have 5 stacks of basic arrows to make sure you won't run out any time soon or have some special types you can switch between. The stack size can be changed on player feedback.
3. Depletable ammo would make the archetype less viable so it would have to be buffed to balance it.
In most games, the fact that you can use the weapon from range is the balancer. Melee weapons don't run out but you will have to be close to the enemy and thus be more prone to damage. Attacking from range will be more safe but it will consume ammo. From what I've seen ranger will be a high damage class anyways so damage won't need to be buffed further.
4. Running out of ammo mid combat.
I can't remember the last time that happened to me since I always keep a close watch on my ammo count and get more as soon as it has a risk of running low. So if I did run out and died cause of it I would have deserved that. And Ashes doesn't limit rangers to just bows, you could have a backup dagger incase you do run out.
5. How will you get ammo when you just started the game?
At first I thought of giving a set amount at start to begin with, but there will probably be some dumdums who waste it all without knowing how to get more and no backup melee weapon so that's not enough. Another option is to add a base skill that generates arrows. This would help with the previous point as well. For example:
Ranger skill (Placeholder name)
Tier 1: Create 10 basic arrows. Can only be used when quiver is empty, if the arrows are not used up in 30 sec they disappear. 30 sec cooldown.
Tier 2: Create 20 basic arrows. 30 sec cooldown.
Tier 3: Create 30 basic arrows. 30 sec cooldown.
Assuming you can shoot 1 arrow per second, tier 3 would equate to an infinite quiver. So if players really don't like gathering basic ammo they can use up some skillpoints. You would still need to buy better arrows.
That’s why the idea of bows not needing repair hasn’t been suggested seriously. That would really overpower them if they become the weapon type you never have to replace. I suggested maybe they degrade slower, but all gear needs to have the risk of breaking for the system to work properly.
This is fantasy game let us shoot arrow from thin air, it is magic and I don't need to explain it.
They would not have a certain amount, you would just have them equiped until you find better ones.
Future Crafting Plans: Herbalism > Alchemy & Scribe or Mining > Metalworking > Jewel cutting (Pending)
A few people have mentioned that there will be no auto-attack feature... but will we have basic attacks that utilize our weapons, or will every attack simply be an ability type move with a cooldown?