@Aardvark that's exactly what PvX is. No other MMORPG has done this this, successfully.
This is the reason you are seeing all these old skoolers resurrecting their ideals. No MMORPG has ever gotten PvP just right.
It's always been about PvP vs PvE. Carebear vs hardcore. No one has ever considered PvX. Sure they talked about having both content, but never PvX. A truly combined multiplayer game.
Steven is an old skooler, another reason for the Old Necro Fanbois. And he knows the vision. It's his game. He's financing and building this game, with his own hands. I admire that.
All we can do, is hope Intrepid makes a great world for us to burn.
We need to stop calling it pvx as that is not what it is. It’s pvp with a few other Things added for the purpose of causing more pvp. There is 0 meanful pve from what we are hearing. They need to stop confusing people and call it what it is. Pvp with some stuff to cause more pvp. There is no pvx as it is described
Just to clarify, i am not against instanced raids.
What i am against is those instanced raids giving BiS's, uniques, or an end game alternative to avoid any interaction with other players. Also i am against those instances being the only selling point of the game, the only focus of the devs or even the only thing that goes right at all.
I prefer a small raid size in which there is no perfect class constellation because there are not enough spots for every class.
You will always miss the skills of a class that has not been taken along. Each class has other skills besides damage that make it important.
In a huge raid, the class identity doesn't matter anymore as every class will be there anyway.
@Aardvark that's exactly what PvX is. No other MMORPG has done this this, successfully.
This is the reason you are seeing all these old skoolers resurrecting their ideals. No MMORPG has ever gotten PvP just right.
It's always been about PvP vs PvE. Carebear vs hardcore. No one has ever considered PvX. Sure they talked about having both content, but never PvX. A truly combined multiplayer game.
Steven is an old skooler, another reason for the Old Necro Fanbois. And he knows the vision. It's his game. He's financing and building this game, with his own hands. I admire that.
All we can do, is hope Intrepid makes a great world for us to burn.
We need to stop calling it pvx as that is not what it is. It’s pvp with a few other Things added for the purpose of causing more pvp. There is 0 meanful pve from what we are hearing. They need to stop confusing people and call it what it is. Pvp with some stuff to cause more pvp. There is no pvx as it is described
Well, you tell Steven that he's not designing a PvX game. Those are his words and it's his game.
So, you're telling me; picking flowers, killing the AI guards and bandits, making gear, chatting in the tavern, isn't PvE?
Sure, you might have to run away from a Red, now and again. Or you might be forced to guard your caravan. I sure don't want my house to burn, so I am being forced to get water to put it out, because some turds decided to siege my node. Don't like those features? Doors right there.
I think Open World Raiding will create an interesting dynamic in AoC. With Server sizes being so large and travel being very limited you could see Regions controlled by different guilds. Where each guild has a certain raid on farm. Though if they needed gear from another raid all the way across the map the Raid become a much more hectic endeavor, requiring more preparation and pvp centric tactics. Basically the further a raid is from your guilds territory the more challenging it will be to complete the raid as you'd be encroaching on other guilds territory. That means if you want that gear you either take the raids by force, create guild alliances, or barter using your guilds raids loot.
I don't see how a guild that occupies a node on the other side of the map can successfully hold off a a guild raiding near their own node. respawn and travel times for the two guilds would vary drastically.
I’m a PvE player and I agree that this game is PvX, PvX doesn’t mean 50% is PvP and 50% is PvE.
But yes, I do think that most interesting things in the end is PvP, but I understand why. Like I and some other person have said, instanced raids or other content will be something everyone can do if they just try hard enough, learn by there mistakes and spend enough time. So that is a thing that will be hard in the beginning but easier as you learn.
The open world raids on the other hand will always be hard and you will never know going in if it’s something you will be able to finish or not. So it’s more exciting. Of course with time some guilds stop doing that raid and it will be easier to find raids like that without competition, but it will take longer than instanced raids.
The thing is, we have crafting, gathering and other similar things, as well as questing and stuff as PvE, but to get the best things in the game we’ll need to always do PvP or buy it from the market. Best materials is from boss drops and that is how a PvE player gets the best things usually, and PvP players get it by Arenas or similar things. Now the PvE player needs to do PvP probably but the PvP player doesn’t need to do PvE. They can still just do Arenas.
Life isn’t fair, and this is not a huge deal for me now when I understand what they mean when they say open world raids. And hopefully the gear and drops from the instanced raids will be as good as the PvP gear/open world raids gear.
As for "loot on silver platters" sounds like a lack of experience with raiding lol. We dont do it because its easy. transparent.
Well, we have different perspective on raiding, for me everything that is instanced is easy, no matter how many obscure and weird mechanics you throw at it, all it takes is time to take it down, for some it takes more, for some it takes less, but at the end everyone will be killing that content and everyone will be "equalized". While the "pvp raids", no matter what mechanics you add to them, your hardest part will always be the competition, as it doesnt have a specific ai boundaries and a set of moves that you can read a few minutes ahead. Thats the beauty of it for me. That adds another layer of depth to the raids, calling it "lack of experience" is kinda wrong. For example if you are a part of a guild at the beginning of a server on Archeage, when gear is not powercrept yet, and you compete with lets say 2-3 more guilds for a world boss named Anthalon, be sure as hell that there will be a hell of a lot of movements, engages and disengages that revolve not only around players, but also around the boss mechanics and timers, as there are so many ways to interfere with the current farming squad and try to stop/wipe them. If you put that boss in an instance, it becomes a boring "timed mechanics" boss.
I do not mean any disrespect but when you raid the hardest content at the hardest difficulty. It is difficult enough to earn respect from everyone. Now you're also assuming everyone will down the content which should not be true and should not happen. Only the elite deserve and should be able to down that content at the hardest difficulty. This is why i am having issues with retail WoW. WoW nerfs content and pushes lesser guild through bosses they can not kill. It also does not just take time. It takes skill and coordination between a team which alot can not successfully do. This also is why a dps meter is needed because it takes team work and community to help each other perform at the highest level. Its hard enough with a difficult encounter to figure it out. without a dps meter there will be bosses that will take years to figure out. This is why i am saying you obviously have a extreme lack of experience on difficult raid encounters. You may have your opinions and want something different but it is obvious you are not speaking from experience.
@Aardvark that's exactly what PvX is. No other MMORPG has done this this, successfully.
This is the reason you are seeing all these old skoolers resurrecting their ideals. No MMORPG has ever gotten PvP just right.
It's always been about PvP vs PvE. Carebear vs hardcore. No one has ever considered PvX. Sure they talked about having both content, but never PvX. A truly combined multiplayer game.
Steven is an old skooler, another reason for the Old Necro Fanbois. And he knows the vision. It's his game. He's financing and building this game, with his own hands. I admire that.
All we can do, is hope Intrepid makes a great world for us to burn.
We need to stop calling it pvx as that is not what it is. It’s pvp with a few other Things added for the purpose of causing more pvp. There is 0 meanful pve from what we are hearing. They need to stop confusing people and call it what it is. Pvp with some stuff to cause more pvp. There is no pvx as it is described
at this point it definately sounds more like a PVP game, i am hoping he opens up more information about what content a PVE player has. PVP sounds amazing. The PVE is extremely lack luster. If youre a pvper you should want good PVE content to bring more players to the game. more population = more fun and more people to fight with. If it ends up just being a PVP game i dont see it lasting long term and a game with good PVP and PVE content will trump it. I imagine there is more to the game yet to be released on the PVE side. i know they are working targeting systems still.
I prefer a small raid size in which there is no perfect class constellation because there are not enough spots for every class.
You will always miss the skills of a class that has not been taken along. Each class has other skills besides damage that make it important.
In a huge raid, the class identity doesn't matter anymore as every class will be there anyway.
I agree 100%. it is nice to have to pick and have Pros and Cons to your decision as a Raid Leader.
@Aardvark that's exactly what PvX is. No other MMORPG has done this this, successfully.
This is the reason you are seeing all these old skoolers resurrecting their ideals. No MMORPG has ever gotten PvP just right.
It's always been about PvP vs PvE. Carebear vs hardcore. No one has ever considered PvX. Sure they talked about having both content, but never PvX. A truly combined multiplayer game.
Steven is an old skooler, another reason for the Old Necro Fanbois. And he knows the vision. It's his game. He's financing and building this game, with his own hands. I admire that.
All we can do, is hope Intrepid makes a great world for us to burn.
We need to stop calling it pvx as that is not what it is. It’s pvp with a few other Things added for the purpose of causing more pvp. There is 0 meanful pve from what we are hearing. They need to stop confusing people and call it what it is. Pvp with some stuff to cause more pvp. There is no pvx as it is described
Well, you tell Steven that he's not designing a PvX game. Those are his words and it's his game.
So, you're telling me; picking flowers, killing the AI guards and bandits, making gear, chatting in the tavern, isn't PvE?
Sure, you might have to run away from a Red, now and again. Or you might be forced to guard your caravan. I sure don't want my house to burn, so I am being forced to get water to put it out, because some turds decided to siege my node. Don't like those features? Doors right there.
Correct picking flowers, crafting, chatting are not pve those are just a game with a game world. PvE would be quests, dungeons, raids, tired progression etc. And if a way that does more than just cause pvp right now the pvp is not meaningful just there as some objectives to pvp over.
I do not mean any disrespect but when you raid the hardest content at the hardest difficulty. It is difficult enough to earn respect from everyone. Now you're also assuming everyone will down the content which should not be true and should not happen. Only the elite deserve and should be able to down that content at the hardest difficulty. This is why i am having issues with retail WoW. WoW nerfs content and pushes lesser guild through bosses they can not kill. It also does not just take time. It takes skill and coordination between a team which alot can not successfully do. This also is why a dps meter is needed because it takes team work and community to help each other perform at the highest level. Its hard enough with a difficult encounter to figure it out. without a dps meter there will be bosses that will take years to figure out. This is why i am saying you obviously have a extreme lack of experience on difficult raid encounters. You may have your opinions and want something different but it is obvious you are not speaking from experience.
I did not play wow, as the game has no appeal whatsoever to me, however when i decided to go carebear mode in aion during 5.x days, my group was the the first ones to clear the hardest instances, get the respective unqiue titles, and do that across 2 servers... I know what i am talking about, and a strict pve encounter will never be as challenging as a "dumbed down" pve encounter in comparisson(it doesnt have to be easy, but being extremely hard for no reason is not required) that has pvp elements, and i've been a part of that for a far longer timer than i've been a carebear. And i can say confidentelly that a squad that can deal with pvp raids, will have no problems dealing with pve raids, however otherwise i would question it.
The main reason of people not clearing "hard pve" content is because they arent interested in it enough, the loot is not of importance, the time invested is not worth their time(or they simply dont have it), or they just dont care about it.
The main reason of people not clearing "pvp bosses", because they cant deal with the competition.
The first one is only bound by ones ambitions and time invested, the second one is a powerplay check, can you outperform your opponents.
And in either of those situations you dont need a dps meter, you can do all of those testings without a dps meter, form a rotation without a dps meter, find a proper class without a dps meter. DPS meter is the lazy way of 2020 of acquiring information, i personaly dont care if it exists or not, i dont pick sides on the matter, but i never felt, and probably never will feel the need to have one.
I do not mean any disrespect but when you raid the hardest content at the hardest difficulty. It is difficult enough to earn respect from everyone. Now you're also assuming everyone will down the content which should not be true and should not happen. Only the elite deserve and should be able to down that content at the hardest difficulty. This is why i am having issues with retail WoW. WoW nerfs content and pushes lesser guild through bosses they can not kill. It also does not just take time. It takes skill and coordination between a team which alot can not successfully do. This also is why a dps meter is needed because it takes team work and community to help each other perform at the highest level. Its hard enough with a difficult encounter to figure it out. without a dps meter there will be bosses that will take years to figure out. This is why i am saying you obviously have a extreme lack of experience on difficult raid encounters. You may have your opinions and want something different but it is obvious you are not speaking from experience.
I did not play wow, as the game has no appeal whatsoever to me, however when i decided to go carebear mode in aion during 5.x days, my group was the the first ones to clear the hardest instances, get the respective unqiue titles, and do that across 2 servers... I know what i am talking about, and a strict pve encounter will never be as challenging as a "dumbed down" pve encounter in comparisson(it doesnt have to be easy, but being extremely hard for no reason is not required) that has pvp elements, and i've been a part of that for a far longer timer than i've been a carebear. And i can say confidentelly that a squad that can deal with pvp raids, will have no problems dealing with pve raids, however otherwise i would question it.
The main reason of people not clearing "hard pve" content is because they arent interested in it enough, the loot is not of importance, the time invested is not worth their time(or they simply dont have it), or they just dont care about it.
The main reason of people not clearing "pvp bosses", because they cant deal with the competition.
The first one is only bound by ones ambitions and time invested, the second one is a powerplay check, can you outperform your opponents.
And in either of those situations you dont need a dps meter, you can do all of those testings without a dps meter, form a rotation without a dps meter, find a proper class without a dps meter. DPS meter is the lazy way of 2020 of acquiring information, i personaly dont care if it exists or not, i dont pick sides on the matter, but i never felt, and probably never will feel the need to have one.
i can chalk this up to you being a bad PVE player lol. There are other places you can mention with some respectable PVE content, however Aion is not one. (tried it) Dungeons vs raids. WoW has some of the most difficult content and the biggest population so i guess that counters the point that nobody likes PVE content because of the population of PVE players in WoW alone, not to mention all the other MMOs. DPs meters are a basic fundamental requirement for raiding for multiple reasons, none of which you have obviously used them for. You can not even create a accurate DPS rotation unless the abilities are simple and basic. Otherwise there is no way for you to know what increases your dmg more, your dot or your melee speed steroid. Lets not even get into a dot class with a stat multiplier. The biggest problem with PVP mixed with PVE is that it is really easy to wipe a PVE raid. This is why WoW's World bosses sometimes take 6-12 hours for a kill. This is not something you can plan out with a team.
I dont strive to be a "good pve player" nor it was ever my ambition to get glorified for instanced mobs kills, all i am saying is, dont make BiS's and uniques accessable to everyone through instances, simple as that.
And yet i believe that i can gather just about enough info without any dps meter to improve the setup of my group, or my self, i wont have necessarely the precise numbers in 80% of the time, but i managed to live without them for 20 years of mmo experience, i believe i am capable of handling without them. It is really not hard to see what will do more damage, "your dot or your melee speed steroid", as it all dumbs down to very specific factors like duration of both, animation time of both, the ability of the target to cleanse the dot and etc. It might take me more time than a program, and it will be less precise, but the result will be the same.
If it will ease your mind on pve content, i was also a training commander and a CM clear commander in gw2 for a few months.
Also i dont think i've said anywhere that "nobody likes PVE", everyone has his own preferences
Comments
We need to stop calling it pvx as that is not what it is. It’s pvp with a few other Things added for the purpose of causing more pvp. There is 0 meanful pve from what we are hearing. They need to stop confusing people and call it what it is. Pvp with some stuff to cause more pvp. There is no pvx as it is described
What i am against is those instanced raids giving BiS's, uniques, or an end game alternative to avoid any interaction with other players. Also i am against those instances being the only selling point of the game, the only focus of the devs or even the only thing that goes right at all.
You will always miss the skills of a class that has not been taken along. Each class has other skills besides damage that make it important.
In a huge raid, the class identity doesn't matter anymore as every class will be there anyway.
Well, you tell Steven that he's not designing a PvX game. Those are his words and it's his game.
So, you're telling me; picking flowers, killing the AI guards and bandits, making gear, chatting in the tavern, isn't PvE?
Sure, you might have to run away from a Red, now and again. Or you might be forced to guard your caravan. I sure don't want my house to burn, so I am being forced to get water to put it out, because some turds decided to siege my node. Don't like those features? Doors right there.
I don't see how a guild that occupies a node on the other side of the map can successfully hold off a a guild raiding near their own node. respawn and travel times for the two guilds would vary drastically.
But yes, I do think that most interesting things in the end is PvP, but I understand why. Like I and some other person have said, instanced raids or other content will be something everyone can do if they just try hard enough, learn by there mistakes and spend enough time. So that is a thing that will be hard in the beginning but easier as you learn.
The open world raids on the other hand will always be hard and you will never know going in if it’s something you will be able to finish or not. So it’s more exciting. Of course with time some guilds stop doing that raid and it will be easier to find raids like that without competition, but it will take longer than instanced raids.
The thing is, we have crafting, gathering and other similar things, as well as questing and stuff as PvE, but to get the best things in the game we’ll need to always do PvP or buy it from the market. Best materials is from boss drops and that is how a PvE player gets the best things usually, and PvP players get it by Arenas or similar things. Now the PvE player needs to do PvP probably but the PvP player doesn’t need to do PvE. They can still just do Arenas.
Life isn’t fair, and this is not a huge deal for me now when I understand what they mean when they say open world raids. And hopefully the gear and drops from the instanced raids will be as good as the PvP gear/open world raids gear.
I do not mean any disrespect but when you raid the hardest content at the hardest difficulty. It is difficult enough to earn respect from everyone. Now you're also assuming everyone will down the content which should not be true and should not happen. Only the elite deserve and should be able to down that content at the hardest difficulty. This is why i am having issues with retail WoW. WoW nerfs content and pushes lesser guild through bosses they can not kill. It also does not just take time. It takes skill and coordination between a team which alot can not successfully do. This also is why a dps meter is needed because it takes team work and community to help each other perform at the highest level. Its hard enough with a difficult encounter to figure it out. without a dps meter there will be bosses that will take years to figure out. This is why i am saying you obviously have a extreme lack of experience on difficult raid encounters. You may have your opinions and want something different but it is obvious you are not speaking from experience.
at this point it definately sounds more like a PVP game, i am hoping he opens up more information about what content a PVE player has. PVP sounds amazing. The PVE is extremely lack luster. If youre a pvper you should want good PVE content to bring more players to the game. more population = more fun and more people to fight with. If it ends up just being a PVP game i dont see it lasting long term and a game with good PVP and PVE content will trump it. I imagine there is more to the game yet to be released on the PVE side. i know they are working targeting systems still.
I agree 100%. it is nice to have to pick and have Pros and Cons to your decision as a Raid Leader.
Correct picking flowers, crafting, chatting are not pve those are just a game with a game world. PvE would be quests, dungeons, raids, tired progression etc. And if a way that does more than just cause pvp right now the pvp is not meaningful just there as some objectives to pvp over.
I did not play wow, as the game has no appeal whatsoever to me, however when i decided to go carebear mode in aion during 5.x days, my group was the the first ones to clear the hardest instances, get the respective unqiue titles, and do that across 2 servers... I know what i am talking about, and a strict pve encounter will never be as challenging as a "dumbed down" pve encounter in comparisson(it doesnt have to be easy, but being extremely hard for no reason is not required) that has pvp elements, and i've been a part of that for a far longer timer than i've been a carebear. And i can say confidentelly that a squad that can deal with pvp raids, will have no problems dealing with pve raids, however otherwise i would question it.
The main reason of people not clearing "hard pve" content is because they arent interested in it enough, the loot is not of importance, the time invested is not worth their time(or they simply dont have it), or they just dont care about it.
The main reason of people not clearing "pvp bosses", because they cant deal with the competition.
The first one is only bound by ones ambitions and time invested, the second one is a powerplay check, can you outperform your opponents.
And in either of those situations you dont need a dps meter, you can do all of those testings without a dps meter, form a rotation without a dps meter, find a proper class without a dps meter. DPS meter is the lazy way of 2020 of acquiring information, i personaly dont care if it exists or not, i dont pick sides on the matter, but i never felt, and probably never will feel the need to have one.
i can chalk this up to you being a bad PVE player lol. There are other places you can mention with some respectable PVE content, however Aion is not one. (tried it) Dungeons vs raids. WoW has some of the most difficult content and the biggest population so i guess that counters the point that nobody likes PVE content because of the population of PVE players in WoW alone, not to mention all the other MMOs. DPs meters are a basic fundamental requirement for raiding for multiple reasons, none of which you have obviously used them for. You can not even create a accurate DPS rotation unless the abilities are simple and basic. Otherwise there is no way for you to know what increases your dmg more, your dot or your melee speed steroid. Lets not even get into a dot class with a stat multiplier. The biggest problem with PVP mixed with PVE is that it is really easy to wipe a PVE raid. This is why WoW's World bosses sometimes take 6-12 hours for a kill. This is not something you can plan out with a team.
And yet i believe that i can gather just about enough info without any dps meter to improve the setup of my group, or my self, i wont have necessarely the precise numbers in 80% of the time, but i managed to live without them for 20 years of mmo experience, i believe i am capable of handling without them. It is really not hard to see what will do more damage, "your dot or your melee speed steroid", as it all dumbs down to very specific factors like duration of both, animation time of both, the ability of the target to cleanse the dot and etc. It might take me more time than a program, and it will be less precise, but the result will be the same.
Also i dont think i've said anywhere that "nobody likes PVE", everyone has his own preferences