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We need this.
nykz
Member
I was watching some history videos of some old MMORPGs when I came across this.
We need these feelings back, basically - in this case, it comes down to letting harder enemy spawn at night in some areas so you're afraid to visit them at night. Just listen to what this guy said. He tells an awesome story and mentions some stuff he loved about EQ and I think he has some very good points.
Time stamp is 11:24 if the link won't work.
https://youtu.be/79KOeDWHfCs?t=684
We need these feelings back, basically - in this case, it comes down to letting harder enemy spawn at night in some areas so you're afraid to visit them at night. Just listen to what this guy said. He tells an awesome story and mentions some stuff he loved about EQ and I think he has some very good points.
Time stamp is 11:24 if the link won't work.
https://youtu.be/79KOeDWHfCs?t=684 11
Comments
There should be plenty of "super basic fantasy stuff" to enjoy as well.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
I don't think I knew much about the development of the genre from MUDs
Not sure what the best way to handle death in games is, he makes some cool points on how it should be punishing and it makes the game more rewarding when there is that tension. But on the other hand in raids, waiting for stuff like post death stat decreases to wear off for all players or having to reequip all your items after a wipe kind of sucks a little too. Being afraid to die is a good thing though to an extent. There's just a line somewhere between heightening the mood and being a nuisance and I'm not sure where it is.
I see a fellow masochist! lol no but on a serious note i agree. People call this "hard core" but in all actuality newer "easier" mmos are just faster. All features are designed for MORE FASTER MOAR NOW. Death, travel, pvp and quests should be worth it and I want to feel that sweet sweet adrenaline hit when I aggroed a bit to much, my hp is plummeting, and death is inevitable. This only happens when death is not just a "meh i'll just die and try again".
Reason I left EQ, was for the glitz and glamour in WoW and a dream of meaningful PvP. But, as the fella say; it's tough going back.
WoW was supposed to be the EQ killer. It's still alive, after 20+ years. That has to say something. Other games died because of poor design, not because another game was better.
I agree with a lot of things he said however like story making sense, areas being dangerous and mystery around every corner. It's memorable to discover things in a meaningful way that you will remember.
I liked how the forest was dangerous at night, a mob that would KoS you if it saw you killing forest creatures, etc. There were some things like that in DAoC, there was this 80ft giant in Albion that, if you attacked him would go off and start killing anything in the area until he was taken down. /sigh
One thing though...PLEASE no spawn camping. A friend told me he waited in line for 16 hours..SIXTEEN....to kill a spawn that dropped a special weapon that he was going to give to a good friend. Sorry but that doesn't sound enjoyable nor does it make any sense. If I was that mob I would be like, "FK it, i'm done with this and going home".
I also remember them shutting down Everquest Next simply because the Devs deemed, "it wasn't fun". WTF??? How in the hell can you not know something you have been working on for YEARS is not enjoyable? That statement really stunned me. Let's hope IS will not have that problem.
I’d love a CRAPCRAPCRAPRUNRUNRUNOHGODNO!!!! kind of experience in Ashes too.
I was lucky, or I believe I was. It was a long time ago, but I do have memories of having to run my arse off to the Rivervale zone line and the safety of the halflings.
And Unrest. What a place that was. You could come out of that place with 22 deaths, but it was such a rush when you did well and had a good group going.
Everquest spawned ideas like "the coming of age run from Kelethin to Qeynos". "But we have to go through Kith", you'd say.
I remember the day I was grouping with some friends in the Karanas, and we were headed in to Qeynos to sell when we happened across a bunch of GMs coming our way. We asked what a group of GMs were doing wandering the path through West Karana and they told us it was the annual GM pilgrimage. We trvalled with those GMs all through the Karanas, down to Lake Rathe, through the swamps, up through the deserts of Ro and into Freeport. Even the GMs avoided Kithicor.
I hope he doesn't read this, because I expect he still has nightmares, but I recall the day a friend fell in The Hole. I've told this elsewhere on these forums, but there was a path through the evil city of Paineel to a dungeon called The Warrens. The trouble was there were guards that could fear you and a chance you'd fall off the bridge and in to The Hole. At level 25 you didn't want to be in The Hole. So there is my friend's corpse deep in The Hole, along with all his gear (your gear stayed on your corpse). It took a group of very generous level 60s to get his corpse. People wanted to help each other in EQ. There was a community.
I'll never forget being a total noob in GFay and a high level came by and gave me a set of patchwork. People did that. Patchwork, at level 5, meant something. It could last you 15 levels.
I remember going to the Common Tunnel marketplace (player made - not a bazaar) and spending my hard earnt platinum piece on a weapon with wisdom. You bought what you saw being shouted for sale. There was no search.
When that YTer mentioned dieing in Rift as a means of fast travel I cringed. From the meaningful moments in EQ to that. It's about time MMOs got back a bit of what EQ had.
Remember this site? https://msu.edu/~oconne53/eqatlas/atlas.html . Those maps were created with a lot of hard work back in the day. There were no maps in game. You had to create your own or rely on the hard work of the guy that did EQ Atlas.
Thanks so much for posting that video @nykz
The grind sucked in EQ but I do remember the chats with people waiting for spawns. Typically you’d get into a fight then have like 5-10 minutes downtime until it spawned again. Usually someone had a timer and would warn us it was coming. In the meantime you’d talk about whatever.
I remember I used to always carry alcohol on my character and I’d drink a lot, there was actually a skill in the game called Alcohol Tolerance that you increased by drinking and it was the first one I maxed out. I used to pretend that I fought better when drunk and who knows, it didn’t seem to hurt much.
A normal camping event in EQ used to be you would want something, let’s say it’s a magic staff that dropped off a unique skeleton that spawned in a dungeon. You’d go to that room and see if there was a group, then ask them if they had room. If they were full they’d take your name down and message you if they had an opening. After you joined you’d tell them you wanted the staff, and so you would be on the list for the staff. Maybe 2 others who were already there wanted the staff too, so you’d get the next one after they got theirs.
You’d wait, enemies would spawn, you’d fight them and hopefully not die. Most likely that unique skeleton didn’t spawn every time the enemies appeared, it might be a one in five chance. When he did spawn he might not have the staff when he died. So you might be there all day long, especially since you don’t get the first one. Eventually the staff drops, the person who gets it might leave if there is another person waiting to join, or they might stick around to help out and get more money/XP if nobody was waiting.
In a game like EQ it was crucial that people were honest and got along. You might grab that staff the first time it drops if you looted the skeleton first, even though it’s not your turn (we would call that “ninja looting” or “being a ninja”). You don’t want a reputation for doing that or if word got out you won’t get allowed into future groups. Other bad behavior would be pulling aggro from another group of enemies, which would bring extra unexpected fighting and might even wipe the group. And if you wipe and don’t get back to reclaim the spot in time, you might lose it.
Training was another bad thing. Since death was so rough, if a fight was going badly you might be best off running to avoid dying. Especially if someone pulls another group in another fight. This was especially bad in a dungeon, where you had rooms/halls/tunnels connected in a maze all populated by enemies. If you had to run out, chances were you’d be catching the attention of multiple groups of enemies on your way out and they’d trail behind you like the cars of a train, hence “training”. A responsible person would shout “TRAIN!!!” as they ran to warn people because any number of the monsters chasing you might break off and attack other people you pass. Trains would happen now and then even to the most careful players but you don’t want to be the one doing it repeatedly. And sometimes griefers would train on purpose just for kicks, or for revenge against someone they dislike, etc. You could get a bad rep or even a GM chat for doing it on purpose.
When you consider the hours put in to camping and the severe penalties for death, you could see why it was so important to behave properly in EQ around other players. Often when you hear about how great the community was in that game, it’s not because the players were special, or even because of how new the experience was. It was because you had to get along in order to be successful.
LOADING, PLEASE WAIT...
You have entered Denny's.
You say, 'Hail Denny's hostess'
Denny's hostess says 'Hello, Cade. Welcome to Denny's. [Smoking] or [non-smoking]?'
You say, 'non-smoking'
You say, 'I would like non-smoking please'
You say, 'what about non-smoking'
Denny's hostess says 'Right this way, please.'
You are out of food and drink.
Erlen shouts, 'has anyone seen the waiter?'
Daegarmo shouts, 'no and ive been camping him for a half hour'
You are out of food and drink.
Ester shouts, 'I see him'
Erlen shouts, 'dont kill him, i still have to do the order quest'
You are hungry.
You are thirsty.
You are out of food and drink.
You say, 'Hail Denny's waiter'
Denny's waiter says 'Hello, Cade. You look like you could use some [coffee]'
You say, 'Yes I'll have some coffee'
You say, 'what about coffee'
Denny's waiter says 'Ah, excellent! We have [regular] and [decaf].'
You say, 'I will have some decaf'
You say, 'what about decaf'
You say, 'what about decaffeinated coffee'
Denny's waiter says 'I expected nothing less of you. Here, take this.'
You gain experience!
Your faction standing with Juan Valdez got better
You drink your coffee.
You were hit by non-melee for 39 dmg
YOU are burning!
You shout, 'Ow hehe this coffee's hot'
Kyrani shouts, 'Haha u sux0r'
You are hungry.
You are out of food.
Annoying kid says 'Pikachuuuuuu'
Annoying kid tries to hit YOU, but misses!
Annoying kid tries to hit YOU, but misses!
Annoying kid hits YOU for 3 points of damage.
Auto-attack on.
You hit Annoying kid for 17 points of damage.
You hit Annoying kid for 22 points of damage.
You have slain Annoying kid!
Your faction standing with Disciplineless Mothers got worse
Your faction standing with Denny's Customers got better
Your faction standing with The World at Large got better
Annoying kid's corpse0 says 'My mother will avenge my death!'
You receive 3 copper as your split.
You are hungry.
You are out of food.
Disciplineless mother says 'Your actions and history are a personal affront to all I stand for.'
Disciplineless mother begins casting a spell.
Disciplineless mother pet is enveloped in flames.
Off-duty police officer says 'Hey! No pets in the building!'
Disciplineless mother pet hits YOU for 18 points of damage.
Off-duty police officer hits Disciplineless mother for 287 points of damage.
Off-duty police officer hits Disciplineless mother for 234 points of damage.
Off-duty police officer kicks Disciplineless mother for 27 points of damage.
Disciplineless mother is slain by Off-duty police officer!
Disciplineless mother pet hits YOU for 12 points of damage.
Off-duty police officer hits Disciplineless mother pet for 262 points of damage.
Off-duty police officer was burned.
Disciplineless mother pet is slain by Off-duty police officer!
Off-duty police officer says 'Let this be a lesson, that none can withstand the wrath of the San Diego Department of Public Safety.'
You are hungry.
You are out of food.
You say, 'Hail Denny's waiter'
Denny's waiter says 'Can I get you some more [coffee]?'
You say, 'No, I want to place my order'
You say, 'Can I place my order?'
You say, 'Let me place my order dammit!'
Denny's waiter says 'Ah, would you like to try our [Grand Slam Breakfast]?'
You say, 'I will have the grand slam breakfast'
Denny's waiter says 'How would you like your [eggs]?'
You say, 'scrambled'
You say, 'I would like them scrambled'
You say, 'what about eggs'
Denny's waiter says 'You can have [scrambled eggs] or [fried eggs].'
You say, 'I will have scrambled eggs'
Denny's waiter says 'Excellent, would you like anything to drink? Some [orange juice], perhaps?'
You say, 'I will have orange juice'
You say, 'what about orange juice'
Denny's waiter says 'Our orange juice is fresh squeezed from concentrate.'
You say, 'give me orange juice'
Denny's waiter says 'Okay, I'll be right back with your orange juice.'
You gain experience!
You are hungry.
You are out of food.
Gordon shouts, 'Attention, your bacon is now raw, because fully-cooked bacon lacks the inherent risks associated with our Vision of Bacon.'
Valshire shouts, 'Wait a minute, this bacon hasn't been cooked for months'
Gordon shouts, 'Uhh... yes it has.'
Tunso shouts, 'You kidding? We've been complaining about this stuff being raw for ages'
Gordon shouts, 'Uh, whatever.'
Gordon shouts, 'Oh.'
Gordon shouts, 'uh.... I've just been informed that the bacon has been raw for several months now, but we were unable to determine this until we fixed a bug with the pancakes, which were previously large enough to obscure the bacon.'
Gordon shouts, '... Oh, yeah, we nerfed your pancakes too.'
Denny's waiter says 'Here is your breakfast, Cade.'
You gain experience!
Your faction standing with Denny's Customers got worse
Scrambled eggs looks at you threateningly - what would you like your tombstone to say?
You taste your eggs.
You are chilled to the bone.
You shout, 'oh man my eggs are cold'
Tunso shouts, 'petition a manager then'
You petition, 'my scrambled eggs are cold'
Raynara shouts, 'Ack train to restroom!!!'
Aikbach says, 'Cailleach, I still can't believe you can eat this stuff'
Denny's waiter says 'Here is your breakfast, Cailleach.'
Cailleach begins to cast a spell.
Cailleach is protected from poison.
Cailleach says, 'I always come prepared'
You shout, 'Man, where's the manager'
Kyrani shouts, 'Haha u pteitond a managr u sux0r'
Napoca tells you, 'Greetings, Cade, I am Napoca, the Denny's manager. How can I assist you?'
You tell Napoca, 'my scrambled eggs are cold'
Napoca tells you, 'I will be with you as soon as possible, please stay patient'
You sip your coffee.
A cool breeze slips through your mind.
Napoca says, 'Greetings, Cade. Are your eggs still cold?'
You say, 'yes'
Napoca begins to cast a spell.
Scrambled eggs burst into flame.
Napoca says, 'Take care'
Elionia says, 'Ack, I don't feel so well'
Elionia begins to cast a spell.
Alka-Seltzer staggers.
Elionia staggers.
Elionia beams a smile at Alka-Seltzer.
Elionia says, 'Ahhh, I feel much better now...'
Denny's waiter says 'Here, let me clear that away for you.'
You say, 'Hey, wait, that's my food, I'm not done yet....'
You shout, 'Hey, this waiter took my food'
Erlen shouts, 'Yep, they do that sometimes if you let your food sit there'
You say, 'Hail Denny's waiter'
Denny's waiter says 'Hello there, Cade, how can I help you?'
You say, 'Check please'
Denny's waiter says 'Okay, here you go.'
You gain experience!
You say, 'Hail Denny's cashier'
Denny's cashier says 'Hello there, would you like to pay your [check]?'
You say, 'Yes I want to pay my check'
You say, 'what about my check'
Denny's cashier says 'You must give me the check before I can reveal more to you.'
Denny's cashier says 'Ah, excellent! Would you like to know your [total]?'
You gain experience!
Your faction standing with Denny's Cashiers got better
You say, 'what is my total'
Denny's cashier says 'Your total is 6 gold, 7 silver, 9 copper. Will you be paying with a [MasterCard]?'
You say, 'yes I will use a mastercard'
Denny's cashier says 'Unfortunately your MasterCard is over-limit. Would you prefer to pay with [cash]?'
Your faction standing with MasterCard got worse
Your faction standing with Cheesy-Ass High-Interest-Rate Credit Card Companies got better
You say, 'yes I will pay with cash'
Denny's cashier says 'Your total is 6 gold, 7 silver, 9 copper then.'
You gain experience!
You receive 2 silver.
You receive 1 copper.
Denny's waiter says 'You have stiffed me on my tip for the last time!'
Denny's waiter crushes YOU for 217 points of damage!
Denny's waiter crushes YOU for 204 points of damage!
Denny's waiter hits YOU for 226 points of damage!
Denny's waiter tries to hit YOU, but misses!
Denny's waiter bashes YOU for 74 points of damage!
You are stunned.
Denny's waiter crushes YOU for 189 points of damage!
You are bleeding to death!
Denny's waiter crushes YOU for 221 points of damage!
You have been slain by Denny's waiter!
You are no longer stunned.
LOADING, PLEASE WAIT...
You have entered Verant.
You shout, 'Can I get a SOW? My corpse is all the way over in Denny's'
Kyrani shouts, 'Haha u sux0r'
One of the more complex things in an MMO in terms of server resources is pathing. It is bad enough as it is, but when you factor in that paths will change for AI entities while traveling (because players will make sure of this), it became actually impossible to implement. Basically, they could have a world with voxels and few mobile NPC's, or a world with an appropriate number of mobile NPC's and no voxels. In either case, what they had couldn't be considered EQN.
TL;DR, when they said "it wasn't fun", they misspelled the real reason.
Such a great MMO.
PvX Focused & Competitive European Guild
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