Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Game Play Idea's and Boss fight mechanics
Kreed
Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
Hello Everyone,
I wanted to run a few idea's by everyone and the game developers. These following idea's have been talked about for years but never really seen or done in a full potential manner. For this part of the list, these 2 idea's have always generated a lot of interesting conversations when the topic comes up during game play with fellow guild members over the years. I think some of the idea's below would increase value to the game for the players and make it stand out even more than the competition.
Devs interactive in game
A few games over the years when beta ended or the game closed sometimes the Devs would spawn in as some sort of boss and attack players or towns or cities. These were fun times. When games went live it never happened again. These moments are some of the most memorable times and events for gamers.
Devs really should consider the value in this. They should spawn in as world bosses or Dungeon bosses randomly un-announced. It doesn’t have to be all the time but occasionally would be a lot of fun. It can be done several ways, nothing gets more stale then doing end game bosses repeatedly for gear going into the fight knowing where everyone needs to stand and do and expected boss sequence attacks or positioning. Having a random show of a dev or game master take over the boss and completely change up the fight would be a thrilling experience. World bosses could be even more fun, attacks can be changed up and the fighting can take place in a much wider area, the Boss can focus on random players breaking aggro and really mess with people. If the boss gets beat quickly the Dev/ game master can respawn even tougher and chase down the attackers. Random attacks on cities or towns would be a lot of fun as well.
Boss fight mechanic
Many games with boss fight mechanics simply have the Boss standing and moving around swiping at players never really making full contact. Would it be possible to have the boss mechanic be able to grab the players, such as the boss can reach down and grab the tank or other players in the raid by the ankles and swing them around using them as a bat to beat up the rest of the raid. There can be a focus of the raid to do something that releases the held player. Or the Boss simply tosses the tank aside and demands a real tank be brought to the fight, if the tank survives the beating then he is geared enough to survive the encounter and shakes off the stuns. It would be an impressive sight to see the tank used as a bat and his armor starts to take damage and fly off. Well any player for that matter.
Dragons could grab players and impale them on their horns declaring “ How worthy are you ? Can you survive my horns?” Eventually the Dragon could shake off the impaled players. It would be one hell of a sight to see players wiggling impaled on the horns in agony.
Or do something like swallow certain players from the raid where the players are picked up and eaten, for the players that have this happen they are teleported into a temporary instance ( stomach of the beast.) Several things can happen and be done at this point like the players outside still fighting can focus on freeing the captive players by doing something that makes the beast throw them up or cuts the belly open partially. While the players inside can take acid damage and will need to be rescued before they lose their armor and die.
Depending on the setup of the dungeon it can be done several ways, a big log can swing ( constructed during raid or cut loose in raid) out and hit the beast in the stomach or he is tricked to eat something foul ( target Dummy / Scare crow) that will make him sick enough to cough up the swallowed party members.
I wanted to run a few idea's by everyone and the game developers. These following idea's have been talked about for years but never really seen or done in a full potential manner. For this part of the list, these 2 idea's have always generated a lot of interesting conversations when the topic comes up during game play with fellow guild members over the years. I think some of the idea's below would increase value to the game for the players and make it stand out even more than the competition.
Devs interactive in game
A few games over the years when beta ended or the game closed sometimes the Devs would spawn in as some sort of boss and attack players or towns or cities. These were fun times. When games went live it never happened again. These moments are some of the most memorable times and events for gamers.
Devs really should consider the value in this. They should spawn in as world bosses or Dungeon bosses randomly un-announced. It doesn’t have to be all the time but occasionally would be a lot of fun. It can be done several ways, nothing gets more stale then doing end game bosses repeatedly for gear going into the fight knowing where everyone needs to stand and do and expected boss sequence attacks or positioning. Having a random show of a dev or game master take over the boss and completely change up the fight would be a thrilling experience. World bosses could be even more fun, attacks can be changed up and the fighting can take place in a much wider area, the Boss can focus on random players breaking aggro and really mess with people. If the boss gets beat quickly the Dev/ game master can respawn even tougher and chase down the attackers. Random attacks on cities or towns would be a lot of fun as well.
Boss fight mechanic
Many games with boss fight mechanics simply have the Boss standing and moving around swiping at players never really making full contact. Would it be possible to have the boss mechanic be able to grab the players, such as the boss can reach down and grab the tank or other players in the raid by the ankles and swing them around using them as a bat to beat up the rest of the raid. There can be a focus of the raid to do something that releases the held player. Or the Boss simply tosses the tank aside and demands a real tank be brought to the fight, if the tank survives the beating then he is geared enough to survive the encounter and shakes off the stuns. It would be an impressive sight to see the tank used as a bat and his armor starts to take damage and fly off. Well any player for that matter.
Dragons could grab players and impale them on their horns declaring “ How worthy are you ? Can you survive my horns?” Eventually the Dragon could shake off the impaled players. It would be one hell of a sight to see players wiggling impaled on the horns in agony.
Or do something like swallow certain players from the raid where the players are picked up and eaten, for the players that have this happen they are teleported into a temporary instance ( stomach of the beast.) Several things can happen and be done at this point like the players outside still fighting can focus on freeing the captive players by doing something that makes the beast throw them up or cuts the belly open partially. While the players inside can take acid damage and will need to be rescued before they lose their armor and die.
Depending on the setup of the dungeon it can be done several ways, a big log can swing ( constructed during raid or cut loose in raid) out and hit the beast in the stomach or he is tricked to eat something foul ( target Dummy / Scare crow) that will make him sick enough to cough up the swallowed party members.
6
Comments
Bots, Botting, gold spammers are a pain and have plagued games across the board. Botting programs are getting way more sophisticated. However there are some games that have been successful at eliminating the offenders.
LOTRO has a next to no gold spammers, their reporting system is based when one receives a certain number of reports the offender gets their chat ability removed. To report them it is a simple right click on their name in chat and options comes up as to which reason they are getting reported. I think it is set at 5 reports gets you shut down. Reports are verified by Game Masters and bans are implemented. Either way they have been successful in removing gold spammers. Along with their system they also run an anti spam program that picks out the gold spammers in chat and in game mail.
There should also be an active Game Master dedicated to hunting bots, along with an easy reporting suspect players in live time for active players to help. Games that have dedicated anti botting are successful in reduced offenders.
There could also be additional options in how to handle bots when found. Game masters could teleport the characters to a jail or shackle them in the town square, with no chance to log out to get free, the offender characters are stuck there until the evidence finds them guilty or not guilty. The guilty get a ban, there characters get a righteous public death. Fed to a Dragon or impaled at a city gate.
Or the Game Masters mark them globally and other players show up to repeatedly destroy them. Players can get awarded achievements for identifying botters and killing them.
Female Armor
Hot topic no pun intended.
Cosmetic clothing should look good a little leg , a little belly , shoulders. I have had several discussions with Women who play online games and many of them want to make their characters have sex appeal, they want to make them pretty or look really dressed to the nines and look attractive. As in real life women have fought through history to wear and look how they want whether its conservative covered or liberal less covered.
As for the armor, light armor or leather armor should be tailored to the female design and not look like they are wearing mens clothing. They should be able to dress up or dress down to the players preference. There should be a freedom there within reason.
Powers and Secondary set Augments
From what I have read and watched so far with power sets and skills the secondary power archetype just augments the main power sets skills for the class. Would it not be better to have the ability to choose an additional skill power as well from that secondary archetype? Like limit it to two power skill choices to add to the main skill tree? This would truly make the class setup become the named archetype. This would make classes far more distinct and unique.
WATCH & SUBSCRIBE TO ME ON: Twitch --- YouTube --- PLAY: Ashes Of Creation
==================
One thing that has plagued MMO boss fights is that boss fights become too-learnable, with nothing in it being unpredictable. It's that UNPREDICTABLE factor that can add to the uniqueness of boss fights in this game. As we stand now, once a guild downs a boss, a "HOW TO" guide pops up on youtube, and then the boss fight becomes much easier for everyone.
But what if the boss had it's own personality, and it's own thought process, and like any other creature in the world can do something totally unpredictable?
EXAMPLES:
> Boss becomes so enraged that he has a child-like temper tantrum and jumps all over the room knocking people down left & right.
> Boss is taking so much damage and is loosing the fight, so he jumps up in some non-reachable area to rest/heal.
> This one would be a very rare situation, (maybe happening once every 5000 raids), but the party approaches the boss, and he looks at the 40 people before him and instead of fighting, he just says "F*ck This!". drops his loot and runs away scared! (No fight happens)
None of these are things we would want to happen each and every fight. They are random events that COULD HAPPEN making the fight much more unique, and making "HOW TO BEAT <BOSS NAME>" guides a bit less reliable because no-ones fight with that particular boss is gonna be exactly the same as another groups fight with the same boss.
I'm sorry - but the old routines for boss fights where we have everything figured out step-by-step is OLD, and worn out. And once a boss is figured out, he just becomes farming material - and quite honestly - boring.
I want to see this game remain fresh for years, and that includes the times when i go and fight <BOSS NAME> for the 10th or 20th time. I want to be able to walk away and say "Wow! That was much harder than last time!", or "MAN! We got so lucky that the boss ran away this time!".
UNPREDICTABLE RANDOMNESS.
Thats what we would like to see.....
WATCH & SUBSCRIBE TO ME ON: Twitch --- YouTube --- PLAY: Ashes Of Creation
There are so many ways by story , scripting and reaction that can be done if they mix it up a bit. I like some of your ideas you expanded on.
The boss running away can get expanded to he shows up later in the dungeon with another boss.
But as stated above. It become stale quickly as guides pop out saying "Do this in phase 1 and do that in phase 2."
A better way would be to have multiple different skill sets for each boss.
Every time the boss spawn they random a set of them.
Example.
The ogre can in Phase 1 - 4
Swing around his tree and has skills corresponding to that.
Or he has no tree and starts garbing and swinging players.
Or he spawn as a Elemental variant but you only see it after he starts breathing Toxins.
Or he calls Adds that he usually only calls on the second phase.
There could be dozens over dozens of moves for 1 boss that could be miss matched to different phases.
When the phases start should also change with each boss spawn.
The first time you killed the boss he went into phase 2 at 80% health.
In your second fight he switched to phase 2 at 95%health and switches phases randomly every 5% - 10% health, never changing at the same % twice.
There is so much potential for engaging boss fights.
The only negative site is the time to create all that.
Each boss would take the time of several "Normal" bosses to create.
I am however a fan of Quality of Quantity.
Better a small number of engaging bosses then a large number of boring bosses.
#MakeBossFightsChallanging
I don't want to see semi naked women running around on the battlefield. I think that armor should mostly be fully-covering for both males and females. Obviously you can play around with a little bit of cleavage or thigh action, but not more than that.
As for giving players the option to choose 2 schools of augments from their secondary, I kind of disagree with that as well. We still don't know exactly how much impact these augments will have. If they have sufficient impact on the base archetype, then I don't think that its necessary to give players the ability to choose another school of augment. If it isn't, then we will see to it then. They already have a metric TON of balancing to do.
I brought up the idea a while ago in a thread about raids where the boss is so near death he leaves and you have to chase him and it takes a while to find it. Most people didn't or a few didnt like the idea. I loved it, it adds something new to the game that has never been done before.
I agree with the OP, the genre boss fights are old and tired, we need an injection added to these. Crazy, not expecting this sort of things.
@Warth corrected me on this. Apparently its not based on how well you do on the previous boss. Its based on how well you do in the different phases of each boss.
To clarify on the augments, the selection would be powers / skill attack, being able to to choose an actual attacks1 an from the secondary archetype, it doesnt need to be a whole bunch simply at least two attacks. By doing so then the character becomes more of the class name. They also don't necessarily need to be part of the tree line either? or they could be only accessed through the main treeline.
Using a Ranger as example, with a Fighter cross over becomes a Strider just from refernce the wiki for the powersets/ attacks remain the same for the class of Ranger the Second archtype doesnt really change any of the attacks , there are no fighter attacks / moves. So then how does it make a Strider? His attacks are all the same it doesnt really make him part melee or changes him to fight partially like a fighter class.
Yes I do understand there is more info to come and I am just going on existing.
When you choose a secondary class, it gives you access to 4 schools of augments. For eg: If you're a fighter and you pick a mage secondary, you may gain access to the school of teleportation, the school of elements etc. etc.
Different schools affect different abilities differently. As of now, we don't know if we'll be able to mix and match the different schools or not. We just have to wait for more info.
Yeah, more info will help, I just hope it makes the secondary archetype enough of something to really make the class as a whole different.
OH ya that would be cool having a spider boss snag one of the group wrap them and the crunching bite to immobilize , this could be applied to mini bosses , just on the way to the main boss or Main boss minions that stalk the players in the shadows. Trap door spiders could be fun, " Where did the Healer disappear to?"
Its endless with what you can do with a boss just being able to physically in game grab players and pick them up .
Can you imagine an Spiky Armadillo that rolls into a ball and runs over the group , those that dont dodge and get hit get stuck onto its back when it unfolds.. So many ways for Bosses to impale, pick up players, grab and abuse players.
Doesn't have to be trained to perfection (coz at that point, humans resort to cheesing the AI like in DotA2).
Also if the same boss can occasionally spawn with a different personality: like in one raid where the boss is really defensive and the battle is more about going all out at every opportunity you get before the boss flees, but then another raid the boss is really aggressive, so your concern is more about keeping everyone alive.
I enjoy the classic bosses with protected weakpoints - where you have to do something for the boss to fall over and then you can attack its weakpoint.
It'd be cool if there was a boss that goes invisible and tries to jump attack someone in the back lines
HOWEVER, there is a danger of going overboard coz boss mechanics can become annoying gimmicks.
@CaptnChuck nah, you are right.
People jusz keep parroting the wrong information
Wait. So what is the correct info?
1. A boss fight to me should be epic. You've endured the dungeon or wild and it's minions to get to said boss, and now it's time to grit your teeth and put all your skills to the test. (I'm going to use a dragon as the example because I think we all associate a dragon with the big bad guy in a true fantasy mmo. That is not to say there are other type of nasties as bosses, I'm just using a dragon for this one.) A side note, I don't know if dragons in Ashes are like most table top rpg's as in they can talk and cast magic, but for this scenario I will assume they can do both.
Phase 1. The Lair
For one, since Ashes is implementing archetype skills, there should be traps all over the place, especially at the entrance to the boss. That is taking for granted the boss isn't stupid and it hears all the fighting going on in the hallways or caverns leading up to it. (which i hope is the case) The traps could be of any type, spike traps, flame traps, darts, etc. IT will give the rogue a hearty workout for sure and possibly the ranger.
But as soon as the first party member steps into the lair the dragon takes flight and will do a few strafing runs on the entrance. The whole raid will have to time it to run to a relatively safe space while the dragon is circling above or get cooked. While the dragon is flying he will taunt the party, calling them insects, vermin, or even fool hardy wannabe thieves, etc
Once in the room you notice the cavern is immense and the ceiling is barely visible, you also see a huge spire in the center of the room, which is a great distance away, with a stair case that is carved on the side of the spire that leads up to the top. You also see magical auras flashing from atop the spire and you hear booming chants coming from the top.. Great, he has lackeys to help him, but you do know the top of the spire is where you need to go. The raid sets off for the spire as the dragon continues to make strafing runs at the raid, and also uses it's massive weight and fire to loose huge stalactites from the ceiling that will fall down onto the raid, which are now fiery molten pieces of stone. A very tedious cat and mouse game ensues until the raid reaches the spire. Luckily, there are a few stalagmites scattered across the floor to hide behind while the dragon unleashes holy hell fire upon the raid.
Phase 2. The Spire
The raid has made it to spire, it's immense, a LOT bigger than you first thought. The spire ascends at least 100 feet up if not more, and the steps aren't very wide. A fall from the top would be certain death, and even halfway up a fall would be deadly. The journey up is not without peril. The dragon circles the spire breathing fire on the raid, and in once instance the dragon hovers before the raid and unleashes a HUGE breath of fire, engulfing a huge section of the stairs. If you are unlucky enough to be caught in it it will be certain death. To make matters worse the dragon tail slaps the spire and you have to be butted up to the spire wall or be knocked prone or off the side.
After a tedious climb you make it to the top to find four wizards, hands and arms moving, voices booming. What spell or ritual they are attempting to cast is unknown but you know it's best to stop them. A very hard fight ensues and to make matter worse the dragon continues to fly overhead and breath fire onto the raid. The wizards employ all kinds of tactics to the fight even levitating off and away from the spire to rain spells of mass destruction onto the raid. One notable spell is a control person spell all wizards use, and it is discernible by the length of the time taking to cast the spell, those unlucky enough not to stop this spell will be controlled and walked off the spire top and fall to certain death.
The fight is long and tedious, but you have managed to kill all four of the wizards and stopped whatever spell/ritual they were attempting atop the spire, but as the last wizard dies the dragon becomes enraged and finally lands onto the top of the spire.
Phase 3. The Dragon
The dragon lands and then with it's huge wings, wing buffets the raid hoping to knock some of them off the edge, but all will be knocked prone. if you are knocked prone the massive wind from the dragon's wings push you back 10-15 feet, hopefully you aren't at the edge of the spire.
The fight is a nasty one, with it's breath weapon and tail slaps, bites, and claws. The dragon takes flight twice during the fight and lands repeating the wing buffet on the raid. As a last ditch effort the dragon polymorphs into a giant humanoid type creature and begins casting spells at the party. Numerous types of spells are employed against the raid, the control person, silence, mass control, slow, and the most powerful, the ray of death, which is a thin dark violet beam that will dot the player and quickly kill the player.
The dragon not being stupid knows it's losing the fight and takes to the air once again, hoping it will end the raid with it's fiery breath. While hovering above the raid, the raid has to burn him down to kill him, otherwise the dragon will self heal itself x number of heath and the process will start all over again beginning with phase two of the dragon fight. If the party does manage to bring him down the dragon falls from the sky engulfed in flames bellowing, "You will never find my hoard!!!!"
Phase 4. The Hoard
The old dragon is a smart one, it has hidden its hoard in a secret chamber deep underground in the cavern and yes, its trapped and spell warded. Time to use those archetype abilities to find it! The raid finally diffuses the traps and breaks the ward on the treasure. A hard day, but a great day to be an adventurer!
This is what I'm hoping to see and my vision as an example of an epic boss fight in Ashes of Creation.
I like both ideas. Vindictus did some things like what you are saying and some private WoW servers had very active GMs that made playing there lots of fun for everyone.
Neverwinter online has a dungeon something a bit similar with a Dragon flying around and harassing the players as they get near to the boss fight end dungeon .
The only thing missing from your script and what Neverwinter didn't have, is having the Dragon physically grabbing random players and carrying them away or something along that lines. The additional action would enhance the whole experience if it was able to not only strafe the party as it goes deeper in the dungeon it could also fly by and snag a player and carry them away, dumping them in a different part further in, this would mean the party now has to rescue the stranded team member.
For the tail slaps, perhaps the Dragon has spikes, a tail slaps in the right spot means the player in the wrong spot at the right time gets stuck to the tail spikes for a few swings then flung off.
I do like your details of the action you laid out!
I do love the tail spike idea and getting thrown off....anything new and unexpected is a plus in my book.
The old tired and worn out tank and spank or just move to pre lit area is old....we need/want more these days I do believe. The computer power is there and so is the AI. I hope we see it in Ashes!
Thanks for commenting.
Games for the last 20 years more or less have been the same stale boss fights, the actual Boss doesnt do anything but teleport players, swipe , make a motion towards players damaging players. Its time someone actually made it happen in a game. AOC has assembled a decent top team of specialized devs, you cant tell me in 2020 it isnt possible to design this mechanic?
We see cut scenes at best showing such action but never really see a Boss or mob actually pick up players and man handle them in some way during a raid. In some console games there are close up action scenes that might flip to a large hand holding a player but these are usually single player and restricted action scenes. Never seen anything like this in PC MMO games.
Maplestory has a boss that does the player grab thing (at 1:06):
You have to jump on his shoulders/back to hit his face to free them.
I don't think it's quite what you imagine though?
Well for that game its a working idea just simplified. I would like to see a boss use the person they grab as a bat to beat the raid with for a bit.
I hope they do as well, it would really make the game play far more interesting.
In general I'm always for a more expansive repetoire of boss fight mechanics. I will say it here again like in my old thread. I don't always have to kill a boss to win. There are endless ways to feel victorious even if you didn't bring something to 0 HP.
Same for the boss fight itself as you have pointed out. There are a lot of things you could do with bosses that are not "I throw x at you". I can think of a few games that did that and were memorable for it, none of them were mmos tho. Definitively something to make your mark in.
Other than that eh don't care to much. Armor (not just female) will always be a topic of discussion. I just always plead for lots of options so everyone can find something they like. Some want something more risque some want the full body armor plating and others just want to skin their enemies and wear their fur as thropys (hint hint). Neither are wrong as long as it fits the general styles found inside the world.
Only thing I will disagree on is incorprating skills of other classes through your 2ndary choice. For now at least. I want to see the extend of customization first that you can achieve with what is already planned.
Aside from it all being pretty expansive (supposedly) I don't agree with the reasoning. A ranger that can throw an icebolt doesn't feel like a true crossover of two classes. It feels weird. Why is he casting a shitty icebolt that his stats don't support? Even worse why DO his stats support an icebolt? 2 Spells don't change enough and yet already I have more problems with it than I care to admit in a post.
A ranger that can enhance his skill to apply the effect of an icebolt on the other hand feels like, imo, a class that expanded itself in a natural way. Learning from other classes.
I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
I agree on waiting and seeing how the tree's and archetypes actually play out. We wont really know until the they show us more. many people I have had conversations with just worry that the secondary archetype wont be as strong to make it truly become a particular variant of that chosen archetype.
I also agree on the armor, options and variations, not just color changes but actual design.