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PvE Difficulty

13

Comments

  • CaptnChuck wrote: »
    So anyone has a better idea than instancing?

    I mentioned one in my post. Make multiple rooms and levels for each dungeon/raid so that players aren't forced to constantly contest other groups.

    So basically increasing the offer to make it less contested?
    That may work for grinding spots but how exactly would you introduce that to a boss encounter?
    Or what do you exactly mean?
  • CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    edited September 2020
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    So anyone has a better idea than instancing?

    I mentioned one in my post. Make multiple rooms and levels for each dungeon/raid so that players aren't forced to constantly contest other groups.

    So basically increasing the offer to make it less contested?
    That may work for grinding spots but how exactly would you introduce that to a boss encounter?
    Or what do you exactly mean?

    Basically make dungeons/raids into a maze of sorts with multiple entrances. Each entrance leads into its own mini dungeon/raid within the original dungeon. These entrances can lead to a set of 3 or so bosses, and can also intersect with another entrance's mini dungeon/raid to connect some bosses.
  • CaptnChuck wrote: »

    Basically make dungeons/raids into a maze of sorts with multiple entrances. Each entrance leads into its own mini dungeon/raid within the original dungeon. These entrances can lead to a set of 3 or so bosses, and can also intersect with another entrance's mini dungeon/raid to connect some bosses.

    Why would people not make parties just to farm the bosses in that case?
    In BDO you also had multiple rare mobs in an area so you could just make farm routes for them instead of actually grinding all the mobs in the area.
  • CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    edited September 2020
    CaptnChuck wrote: »

    Basically make dungeons/raids into a maze of sorts with multiple entrances. Each entrance leads into its own mini dungeon/raid within the original dungeon. These entrances can lead to a set of 3 or so bosses, and can also intersect with another entrance's mini dungeon/raid to connect some bosses.

    Why would people not make parties just to farm the bosses in that case?
    In BDO you also had multiple rare mobs in an area so you could just make farm routes for them instead of actually grinding all the mobs in the area.

    You can't. There's simply too many paths and they are quite far apart. So if you split your group into multiple groups, then they won't be able to do anything if they encounter a larger group.
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Interesting conversation.
    Personally I don't want any gear coming from a mini game of any kind. Open world or not at all.

    Because another game had weak PvE means this one will as well is an odd statement.
    What evidence do you have that Ashes will have weak PvE? they have a solid core of devs from some solid titles that do have this kind of content.


    If that is the case half of the PvE content is not PvE but PvP making it laughable if you look for a challenging PvE experience.

    This is the very definition of PvX. Trying to seprate the the two into PvE and PvP only is a mistake. It isn't one OR the other it is both at the same time.

    And Chuck

    No that's not exactly what it means. The crafting system isn't tied to PvP. So why should the entire PvE system be tied to PvP then? A PvX game is a game that caters to players of all playstyles.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Caravans

    Transporting larger amounts of resources for crafting requires caravans which is PvX. I'll bet even mobs in the world will attack caravans.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited September 2020
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    Warth wrote: »
    PvX doesn't mean you can do it all separately.
    PvX means that they are all intertwined.

    No that's not exactly what it means. The crafting system isn't tied to PvP. So why should the entire PvE system be tied to PvP then? A PvX game is a game that caters to players of all playstyles.

    Besides, I'm not asking for PvE content to be purely instanced. Only 50/50. The enchant/resource dungeons are open world while gear based dungeons are instanced.

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Crafting

    Heavy note on this part. Is the 5th line down.
    Anything that you want to bring into existence in the world is going to be built by players: Whether that is Ships, Siege engines, Weapons, Armor, etc.[8] – Jeffrey Bard
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • So from what I understand, you are afraid that fighting off contestants will be more difficult than the boss itself.
    If 75% of difficulty came from PvP it would be a huge turnoff for PvE players, but players that mostly PvP would probably love it. Instanced raids would be the other end of the extreme 100% PvE and no PvP. It really just comes down to preference and it's not possible for a single raid to satisfy everyone.
    I think the best option would be to diversify all the raids. Keep the 20% instanced but for the rest, have a diverse balance of PvP and PvE. The way you can regulate it is to change the difficulty of entry into a dungeon/raid. For example a dungeon door requires a key that takes a ton of time to grind for and is consumed on entry. This way you are less likely to run into a contesting group but not entirely PvP free. This could be about 90/10 in favor of PvE difficulty. Then another dungeon that's completely free entry which could be about 25/75 in favor of PvP difficulty
  • So from what I understand, you are afraid that fighting off contestants will be more difficult than the boss itself.
    If 75% of difficulty came from PvP it would be a huge turnoff for PvE players, but players that mostly PvP would probably love it. Instanced raids would be the other end of the extreme 100% PvE and no PvP. It really just comes down to preference and it's not possible for a single raid to satisfy everyone.
    I think the best option would be to diversify all the raids. Keep the 20% instanced but for the rest, have a diverse balance of PvP and PvE. The way you can regulate it is to change the difficulty of entry into a dungeon/raid. For example a dungeon door requires a key that takes a ton of time to grind for and is consumed on entry. This way you are less likely to run into a contesting group but not entirely PvP free. This could be about 90/10 in favor of PvE difficulty. Then another dungeon that's completely free entry which could be about 25/75 in favor of PvP difficulty

    This is an interesting way to do it as well.
  • CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    edited September 2020
    @bloodprophet

    Crafting isn't dependent on PvP in the same way that PvE is. As it is now, PvE content relies on player contention in order for dungeons/raids to be challenging.
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    So anyone has a better idea than instancing?

    I mentioned one in my post. Make multiple rooms and levels for each dungeon/raid so that players aren't forced to constantly contest other groups.

    Please watch this from the timestamp (11:19)
    https://youtu.be/H0LQSMT83L0?t=679

    Steven specifically wants to encourage endgame raids and bosses to be heavily contested, because it encourages guilds to form alliances and make political moves against other groups to secure access to raids.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    edited September 2020
    @maouw

    I've seen this video more times than you have. So you don't have to link it to me.

    If you listen carefully, at 11:35 , you can hear that Steven said "potentially". Which means that they're still working on what degree of player contention they want for end game content. He hasn't stated if he wants it to be a low, moderate or high level of contention.

    So you're just incorrect when you say this:
    maouw wrote: »

    Steven specifically wants to encourage endgame raids and bosses to be heavily contested, because it encourages guilds to form alliances and make political moves against other groups to secure access to raids.

  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    @CaptnChuck

    My friend, he's clearly leaning in this direction, but because he used the word "potentially" - it therefore negates all intention?

    I'm not gonna argue with you at this level, because, you know, it's that far above me.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    edited September 2020
    maouw wrote: »
    @CaptnChuck

    My friend, he's clearly leaning in this direction, but because he used the word "potentially" - it therefore negates all intention?

    I'm not gonna argue with you at this level, because, you know, it's that far above me.

    It doesn't negate all intention. You said that he intends endgame content to be HEAVILY contested. That's just incorrect. You don't know how contested Steven wants open world content to be.

    Above you? Its easy to escape being wrong in an argument by saying that you're "above all this". You ain't above shit. Grow up weeb.
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think you misunderstood what is meant by "potentially". This part will be regulated by the community of players.
    If you show up to kill the boss. "Potentially" another group might show and contest you for it or they might move on or they might watch you wipe and kill it before you get back.

    I've seen this video more times than you have. So you don't have to link it to me.
    Interesting comment to make.
    Are you sure?
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    edited September 2020
    I think you misunderstood what is meant by "potentially". This part will be regulated by the community of players.
    If you show up to kill the boss. "Potentially" another group might show and contest you for it or they might move on or they might watch you wipe and kill it before you get back.

    I've seen this video more times than you have. So you don't have to link it to me.
    Interesting comment to make.
    Are you sure?

    You don't know what it means for sure either. You can interpret it in both ways.
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited September 2020
    What?
    Define that please.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • AbominatusAbominatus Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    So from what I understand, you are afraid that fighting off contestants will be more difficult than the boss itself.
    If 75% of difficulty came from PvP it would be a huge turnoff for PvE players, but players that mostly PvP would probably love it. Instanced raids would be the other end of the extreme 100% PvE and no PvP. It really just comes down to preference and it's not possible for a single raid to satisfy everyone.
    I think the best option would be to diversify all the raids. Keep the 20% instanced but for the rest, have a diverse balance of PvP and PvE. The way you can regulate it is to change the difficulty of entry into a dungeon/raid. For example a dungeon door requires a key that takes a ton of time to grind for and is consumed on entry. This way you are less likely to run into a contesting group but not entirely PvP free. This could be about 90/10 in favor of PvE difficulty. Then another dungeon that's completely free entry which could be about 25/75 in favor of PvP difficulty

    I don’t agree with that description of the problem. The issue for me is that if you tune encounters to be achievable when contested then they intrinsically will be trivial when uncontested. That results in what others have described as bosses that are basically just trash mobs with huge hit point reserves.

    Really challenging PvE bosses often require even the best players in the world to make hundreds of attempts before they can beat it even without being contested. Putting content like that into a contested environment will make it literally impossible given that every wipe will force yet another round of pvp just to get the chance to make your next pull. And even the slightest interference during the attempt has a good chance of wiping you.

    I think that there might be a bigger problem that whether or not there are instances. Doing some reading and watching makes me think that gear progression in AoC is intended to be very flat. That’s a valid choice, and it makes a lit of sense in the context of open world pvp, where you would prefer inter-player encounters to be meaningful and not just one guy roflstomping the other guy due to gearing. But it goes counter to traditional raiding progression where the objective is to engage progressively more difficult content in order to achieve the gear level needed to even have a chance at the hardest instances. That gear progression grind is intrinsically part of the challenge of raid pve.

    It may well be that the systems choices that are being made for AoC mean that it’s simply a PvP mmo with some cosmetic PvE decoration, not a genuine PvX game at all. Which is fine, if that is actually the intent. But then it’s just a pity that it’s being marketed as “truly PvX”.

    I hope I’m wrong. We will see.
  • CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    edited September 2020
    What?
    Define that please.

    Contention depends on a lot of factors. The size of the dungeon/raid, the no. of rooms, the difficulty of the content in that dungeon/raid, and the no. of players online at that time.

    You can control some of these factors to control just how contested you want a dungeon/room to be. So we don't know how contested a particular dungeon/raid is going to be. To say that its heavily contested right off the bat, without knowing what these parameters are, is just incorrect.
  • CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    edited September 2020
    What happened @bloodprophet ? I defined it for you. So let me ask you, are you sure that I misunderstood it?
  • AbominatusAbominatus Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    One option that was rather weakly explored in WoW is to make the raid instanced, but gate it behind a PvP setpiece. In other words, once per day or week or whatever period is appropriate, there’s a pvp battle in which everyone chooses a side (attacking or defending or whatever). Whichever side wins the battle gets exclusive access to the raid instance until the next battle. If they want to keep it, they have to win the battle again.

    Doing this in a non-faction based system needs a bit more work: is it all members of guilds who participated? How many guild members have to participate to qualify? Etc. but it can probably be worked out.
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    I think you misunderstood what is meant by "potentially". This part will be regulated by the community of players.
    If you show up to kill the boss. "Potentially" another group might show and contest you for it or they might move on or they might watch you wipe and kill it before you get back.

    I've seen this video more times than you have. So you don't have to link it to me.
    Interesting comment to make.
    Are you sure?

    You don't know what it means for sure either. You can interpret it in both ways.

    Try this again.
    Define what you meant here.
    The potential exists for many out comes here.

    I get what your saying about harder content you can do uninterrupted I just think games that have the potential for interruption are more fun then static encounters where a boss mob does XYZ at a certain time in a certain order are a lot more fun.

    Why I prefer playing on PVP servers. Makes you pay more attention to your surroundings and whats going on.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Abominatus wrote: »
    One option that was rather weakly explored in WoW is to make the raid instanced, but gate it behind a PvP setpiece. In other words, once per day or week or whatever period is appropriate, there’s a pvp battle in which everyone chooses a side (attacking or defending or whatever). Whichever side wins the battle gets exclusive access to the raid instance until the next battle. If they want to keep it, they have to win the battle again.

    Doing this in a non-faction based system needs a bit more work: is it all members of guilds who participated? How many guild members have to participate to qualify? Etc. but it can probably be worked out.

    GW1 had a similar setup. What ever guild was winning the PvP battles gave their region access to the raids. Waiting out side the door for the local team to win so we could go in was fun/frustrating. But mostly fun.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    edited September 2020
    @bloodprophet

    I don't completely understand what you are saying, but yes, PvP contention is quite fun. But so is PvE content that can wipe your whole group if you don't pay attention or if you don't position/react properly. Is it wrong to want both?
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    What happened @bloodprophet ? I defined it for you. So let me ask you, are you sure that I misunderstood it?

    Give people a minute to respond.
    Brief internet outage all of the sudden. Like it's the dark ages again.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • TyrantorTyrantor Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    They've said that the dungeons are going to scale in difficulty because the game is going to analyze the group(s) ability to clear them and as you go through the "levels" of the dungeon it will adjust to become harder. So if you're looking for the most "intense" PVE experience you'll want to become pro at clearing the dungeons as quickly with no deaths as possible.

    Personally I think that should increase the drop rates and quality of items too so people don't just slow play the dungeons.

    Since one of the dev teams working on this came from the EQ background it seems reasonable that they will be able to create meaningful and challenging PVE. Alpha - Beta's likely will not shed a ton of light on this however since they want to limit exposure to the end game content.

    If you're goal in this thread is to avoid PvP for instanced PvE that doesn't seem to be a game model they're considering and it would defeat the purpose of the systems in place if people could simply hide in PVE instances and "gear up" in peace. Why would anyone then use the open world for it with the added risk of PVP? lol
    Tyrantor
    Master Assassin
    (Yes same Tyrantor from Shadowbane)
    Book suggestions:
    Galaxy Outlaws books 1-16.5, Metagamer Chronicles, The Land litrpg series, Ready Player One, Zen in the Martial Arts
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    @bloodprophet

    I don't completely understand what you are saying, but yes, PvP contention is quite fun. But so is PvE content that can wipe your whole group if you don't pay attention or if you don't position/react properly. Is it wrong to want both?

    I think it is wrong to segregate the community for any reason.
    But the real trouble we are having and why we are talking past each other is NONE of us has any idea what they have created or are in the process of creating aside from a couple of low level bosses. Look at the dev bios there is a lot of talent and experience there and the COE is a player first game creator second.
    This I think warrants a wait and see approach. Is super hard to give constructive feed back on stuff we can only envision / make up in our heads of how it will work.
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    CaptnChuck wrote: »
    maouw wrote: »
    @CaptnChuck

    My friend, he's clearly leaning in this direction, but because he used the word "potentially" - it therefore negates all intention?

    I'm not gonna argue with you at this level, because, you know, it's that far above me.

    It doesn't negate all intention. You said that he intends endgame content to be HEAVILY contested. That's just incorrect. You don't know how contested Steven wants open world content to be.

    Above you? Its easy to escape being wrong in an argument by saying that you're "above all this". You ain't above shit. Grow up weeb.

    We'll see when the game releases, yeah?

    Can I offer some advice? Don't go Ad Hominem. Especially when your insults miss.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • CROW3CROW3 Member, Alpha Two
    This thread seems to have devolved from ideas / suggestions on PvE difficulty to essentially two people who are trying too hard to be ‘right’ when about a product that can and will shift back and forth before launch.

    Take a step back and breathe.

    I remember when GW2 / Rift came out, where open world bosses and dynamic public events were a refreshing change from the raid instance grinding of WoW. I also remember really disliking the instanced content of GW2, which brought us back to WoW. For me, I really enjoy having a balance between open systems (world content) and closed systems (instances). Open systems make the world feel alive, creates new community & contacts, and drives a broader narrative. Closed systems allow a tighter group uninterrupted access to continually refine their play (think of it like an experiment) by eliminating outside variables and focusing on their group’s dynamic in a problem.

    It’ll be fun and interesting to see how AoC strikes a balance that adheres to Intrepid’s guiding principles and the predominant player base.
    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • CaptnChuckCaptnChuck Member
    edited September 2020
    @maouw

    Contention depends on a lot of factors. The size of the dungeon/raid, the no. of rooms, the difficulty of the content in that dungeon/raid, and the no. of players online at that time.

    You can control some of these factors to control just how contested you want a dungeon/room to be. So we don't know how contested a particular dungeon/raid is going to be. To say that its heavily contested right off the bat, without knowing what these parameters are, is just incorrect.
    maouw wrote: »
    @CaptnChuck
    I'm not gonna argue with you at this level, because, you know, it's that far above me.
    maouw wrote: »

    Can I offer some advice? Don't go Ad Hominem. Especially when your insults miss.

    Miss? I thought you said you that you weren't going to argue with me anymore cuz you're "above" my level. Clearly something hit you somewhere to bring you down from up there.
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    CROW3 wrote: »
    This thread seems to have devolved from ideas / suggestions on PvE difficulty to essentially two people who are trying too hard to be ‘right’ when about a product that can and will shift back and forth before launch.

    Take a step back and breathe.

    Fair enough.

    Thanks for calling it out, hard to see it when I'm doing it.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
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