PvE Difficulty

We know that AoC is going to have 80% open world PvE content and 20% instanced PvE content (mainly lore content).

This brings me to my question. How will they create challenging, Open world, PvE content?

We've seen Archeage try this before, but the content itself changed into PvP content due to the fact that the difficulty stemmed from the PvP aspect of it and not from the PvE content itself.

This is why I'm worried about PvE content in AoC, as I feel like Steven, in his pursuit for social interaction, won't be willing to sacrifice some of it in exchange for creating challenging PvE content.

One of my solutions was to create two different types of PvE content: Open world dungeons/raids for enchanting materials/augments/enchanting risk-reducing materials etc. (like enchanting in L2), and Instanced dungeons/raids for gear.

Another solution that I heard was to add a lot of depth to PvE content, by adding multiple rooms and levels and stuff, so that players don't constantly contest each other.

What do you think? Do you think that this is going to be a problem? If so, how do you propose to solve it?

(P.S. There's also the aspect of zerging down bosses but Steven has already stated that they're working on introducing mechanics to ensure that this won't happen. I don't know how successful these mechanics will be, but I really hope that they nail it, as if they don't, the game will fail.)

EDIT - To those of you saying that this game shouldn't appeal to everyone....Shut up. Steven clearly said that he wanted AoC to appeal to all types of players: PvP, PvE, crafting etc. He wants this to be a PvX game.

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Grievousness

PvP:

"Because players are motivated by different things, because they want something from the game that other players don't want, that's going to cause people to butt heads. Different players are going to want different experiences and the conflict between the two of them will create a bigger and better thing. Out of strife comes rebirth and that's a core symbol, it's a core theme that occurs throughout the game.[4]" – Jeffrey Bard
source: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP

Feels like we are already playing the game guys. Butting heads.

@Bricktop
PvE:

"There is going to be a lot of PvE content for all portions of the playerbase... Part of that risk versus reward: Your risk is your time you're putting in to having a chance at getting the reward and successfully completing; and that should feel good based on how much time you devote. Now I know that there's a spectrum of casual and hard-core players in the time there, what we can do, but that's why we have many different content paths that play towards how you affect the world around you" – Steven Sharif
source: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvE

Steven is comparing Risk with the time you invest.
If they make a PvE encounter that takes a lot of time invest, it is perfectly in line with the vision for the game.
If the content is instanced or not doesn't really matter, it just seems easier to design it in an instanced way.

Bricktop

Grievousness wrote: »

PvP:

"Because players are motivated by different things, because they want something from the game that other players don't want, that's going to cause people to butt heads. Different players are going to want different experiences and the conflict between the two of them will create a bigger and better thing. Out of strife comes rebirth and that's a core symbol, it's a core theme that occurs throughout the game.[4]" – Jeffrey Bard
source: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP

Feels like we are already playing the game guys. Butting heads.

@Bricktop
PvE:

"There is going to be a lot of PvE content for all portions of the playerbase... Part of that risk versus reward: Your risk is your time you're putting in to having a chance at getting the reward and successfully completing; and that should feel good based on how much time you devote. Now I know that there's a spectrum of casual and hard-core players in the time there, what we can do, but that's why we have many different content paths that play towards how you affect the world around you" – Steven Sharif
source: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvE

Steven is comparing Risk with the time you invest.
If they make a PvE encounter that takes a lot of time invest, it is perfectly in line with the vision for the game.
If the content is instanced or not doesn't really matter, it just seems easier to design it in an instanced way.

And I will defend to the death that Instanced content is not healthy for the game. Make all the PvE you want and make it challenging, but don't put it in an instance. He also uses the words "Part of that risk" and that statement truly doesn't mean anything to me when you don't even know how the PvE content plays out and demanding more instancing.

Grievousness

Bricktop wrote: »

And I will defend to the death that Instanced content is not healthy for the game. Make all the PvE you want and make it challenging, but don't put it in an instance.

Having to much instancing is unhealthy for most MMOs in general, since next to all of them have an open world that is supposed to be populated.

But failing PvE content in favour of everything is a PvP thing is neither healthy nor is it the intended vision for the game.
Which is why we are talking about it.

CaptnChuck

Bricktop wrote: »

I don't believe it is me who is misinformed here

The best gear in the game drops as recipes and materials from world bosses and it's all crafted. You will need high level crafters to be able to utilize the legendairy recipes. PvPers WILL need to kill bosses to have the best gear in the game and utilize crafters. I'm not "confusing my idea" of anything, I'm explaining to you how the game is going to work since you can't seem to grasp the concept of OPEN WORLD.

Yes you are @Bricktop . That reply of yours indicates that you don't know what you're talking about. Steven doesn't want players to be forced to play a way they don't want to play. He doesn't want crafting to be THE way to gain gear. If so.....why even have other professions? He doesn't want PvP players to be FORCED to play PvE or FORCED to pick crafting to get gear, like in WoW. He also doesn't want PvE players to be FORCED to PvP constantly to get PvE gear. This is why in Asmongold's Interview, he clearly stated that he wanted open world content to be "potentially" contested.

Crafting isn't going to be the ONLY way to get gear but it is going to be the most consistent. That's why every guild will have crafters and other professions, as a lot of people will need crafters to craft gear for them as they won't be at the top for PvE and PvP content. I'm pretty sure that high level PvPers will be able to get gear from PvP content and that high level PvErs will be able to get gear from PvE content.

Bricktop wrote: »

You are trying to modify the content of a game that isn't released yet and you know next to no information about. You have no idea if the current iteration of PvE content will be unique and challenging. We all saw what happened to New World after the PvErs got involved. Instanced content directly goes against the design philosophy of the game which is Risk vs Reward.

Again, incorrect as usual. I'm making suggestions. This is a DISCUSSION. Steven has clearly said before that he wants to read our takes on different systems in the game. So no, I don't have to wait till release to make suggestions. Can my suggestions be wrong? Absolutely, hence why its called a discussion and if you don't wanna participate, then by all means don't type.

Also, no, New World changed its design simply because they weren't capable of dealing with the toxicity that an open world game brought. Instead of fixing it, they chose to change it completely instead. Ashes is a different story. The devs are fully intent on sticking to the open world nature of AoC and that's exactly what it should be. But there's nothing wrong with having partial instanced content.

Bricktop wrote: »

There is no risk in instance scripted encounters where a boss does the same 3 abilities. If you want a no risk game there are PLENTY of games for you to play that aren't open world and you can log in every tuesday and thursday to kill scripted AI.

No risk? What is your definition of no risk? Is having super challenging bosses that can wipe your raid not high risk? Is PvP the only source of risk? Yet again, I'm afraid you're wrong.

maouw

@CaptnChuck Steven has said 2 things that are really relevant to your concerns:

Endgame raids are designed to have dynamic difficulty: the more efficient you are at clearing the raid, the boss behaviour will change, and the better the rewards.
PvP and PvE is intertwined because there is no "gear for PvP only". The PvPers will need materials that only PvE bosses drop. In the other direction, the particular endgame raids available on each server depend entirely on Node control - which is ultimately PvP only.

I'm personally way more comfortable with PvE, but even I know that the PvP elements of this game (node sieges, guilds at war) are the agents that make the world non-linear. This is something no other PvE game can achieve because the non-linearity of the entire world is determined by real human v human politics.

I also disagree with your desire for more instancing - it directly disrupts socialization in the game, undercuts the economy and breaks suspension of disbelief. Instancing is all about solving "I want it now, without having to wait for someone else" - but that's the intention! Having highly contested content creates economy.

Bricktop

Yes this is indeed a discussion, which is why I'm urgently discussing why you shouldn't try and change the entire design philosophy of an open world game by adding instancing. Did you see what happened to New World when you try and change an entire game after it's been developed with one thing in mind the whole time? Crafting isn't going to be THE way to get gear, but the best gear in the game will be from crafting stuff from world bosses, that was also stated in one of those interviews.

There's no risk in raid instances no, you have a fake death, the group respawns and runs back, and if you are really bad you might have to do a repair bill or something every so often. The risk in an open world game is if you flag up on some guild to defend a world a boss for your guild to kill, you may now get war declarations sent to you and have an enemy guild hunting down your guild trying to kill every single one of you and make you miserable for months. Let's be honest with one another, that's really why you want instances isn't it?

Warth

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

I'm sorry but you are just wrong here. The game is PvX in that PvPers will still need to PvE and kill bosses in order to get gear, and that PvErs still need to PvP in order to kill bosses and get good gear. Crafting is needed by all players in order to craft said gear. The reason it works that way is because it's an open world game.

Why are you typing when you don't know anything? PvPers don't NEED to PvE to get gear. Crafting is NOT needed by all players to get gear. If so, whats the point in having other professions?

@Bricktop , I'm afraid you're grossly uninformed on what Steven wants this game to be. He doesn't want to force players to do things they don't want to do. He wants to allow every type of player to play the game. That's what he means by PvX.

Stop confusing your idea of a PvX game with Steven's. Yours is completely different, and may I say terrible. Forcing players to play one way is a terrible way to design a game.

Bricktop wrote: »

There is an 80/20 split of non-instanced vs instanced already in the game. You are suggesting MORE instanced content, which goes against the open world design of the game. Instanced dungeons that good gear drops out of are an absolutely atrocious idea if you are trying to make an open world game that requires people to fight over limited resources. Please stop trying to completely change the design of the game to have instanced raids.

Sometimes its ok to modify the design of a game, if it makes it better. Besides its not the ONLY solution. Its just something I came up with.

I think that introducing instanced PvE content is the only way Intrepid can bring challenging PvE content into AoC. That's my personal opinion, based on games that have done similar things in the past. I'd love to be proved wong, but so far I haven't been. That's all.

Bricktop certainly is right. You are the misinformed person here. Not him.

Steven wrote:

We like to really refer to ourselves as a PvX game, because in those systems of PvP, PvE, crafting they're all intertwined: They're interdependent on each other... Our system of development really requires some interdependence there between those things. You're going to need a crafter to give you the best items.

Its very interesting, that you keep trying to tell us what Stevens wants the game to be, ignore all relevant quotes that directly contradict your statements and fail to provide a single one supporting the claims you make yourself.

bigepeen

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

I don't believe it is me who is misinformed here

The best gear in the game drops as recipes and materials from world bosses and it's all crafted. You will need high level crafters to be able to utilize the legendairy recipes. PvPers WILL need to kill bosses to have the best gear in the game and utilize crafters. I'm not "confusing my idea" of anything, I'm explaining to you how the game is going to work since you can't seem to grasp the concept of OPEN WORLD.

Yes you are @Bricktop . That reply of yours indicates that you don't know what you're talking about. Steven doesn't want players to be forced to play a way they don't want to play. He doesn't want crafting to be THE way to gain gear. If so.....why even have other professions? He doesn't want PvP players to be FORCED to play PvE or FORCED to pick crafting to get gear, like in WoW. He also doesn't want PvE players to be FORCED to PvP constantly to get PvE gear. This is why in Asmongold's Interview, he clearly stated that he wanted open world content to be "potentially" contested.

Crafting isn't going to be the ONLY way to get gear but it is going to be the most consistent. That's why every guild will have crafters and other professions, as a lot of people will need crafters to craft gear for them as they won't be at the top for PvE and PvP content. I'm pretty sure that high level PvPers will be able to get gear from PvP content and that high level PvErs will be able to get gear from PvE content.

Actually, a person or a group of people who only does PvE exclusively will likely not be able to get the best gear in the game.

Here's a direct quote from Steven: "Just because our flagging system gives corruption to pkers, doesn't mean PvP won't happen. There is plenty of reason for PvP to occur open-world. Scarce resources, open world hunting grounds, caravans, sieges, guild wars etc."

Notice the part about scarce resources. It is probably these scarce resources that will be needed to create the best gear. These resources therefore will likely be contested in the open world, because everyone wants the best gear. Therefore, if someone wants to craft gear with these resources, someone along the line, it is very likely that someone will have to PvP for those resources.

CaptnChuck

maouw wrote: »

[*] PvP and PvE is intertwined because there is no "gear for PvP only". The PvPers will need materials that only PvE bosses drop. In the other direction, the particular endgame raids available on each server depend entirely on Node control - which is ultimately PvP only.

Rewards for arena ladders will be revealed at a later time.[5]
Titles can be received from arena play.[6]
Arena points that can be used to buy gear are not currently in the design.[6]

There is possibility for Arena-based gear.

maouw wrote: »

I also disagree with your desire for more instancing - it directly disrupts socialization in the game, undercuts the economy and breaks suspension of disbelief. Instancing is all about solving "I want it now, without having to wait for someone else" - but that's the intention! Having highly contested content creates economy.

I don't WANT it. I want challenging PvE content. And if they can do it with Open World content, then I have absolutely no problem with it. What i said was only a POSSIBLE solution. So far I haven't seen any MMO achieve a solid level of challenge for open world content. Hence the suggestion.

Bricktop

CaptnChuck wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

[*] PvP and PvE is intertwined because there is no "gear for PvP only". The PvPers will need materials that only PvE bosses drop. In the other direction, the particular endgame raids available on each server depend entirely on Node control - which is ultimately PvP only.

Rewards for arena ladders will be revealed at a later time.[5]
Titles can be received from arena play.[6]
Arena points that can be used to buy gear are not currently in the design.[6]

There is possibility for Arena-based gear.

maouw wrote: »

I also disagree with your desire for more instancing - it directly disrupts socialization in the game, undercuts the economy and breaks suspension of disbelief. Instancing is all about solving "I want it now, without having to wait for someone else" - but that's the intention! Having highly contested content creates economy.

I don't WANT it. I want challenging PvE content. And if they can do it with Open World content, then I have absolutely no problem with it. What i said was only a POSSIBLE solution. So far I haven't seen any MMO achieve a solid level of challenge for open world content. Hence the suggestion.

The suggestion that completely goes against the core design philosophy of the game (Open world player driven), which is what everyone is arguing against. Everybody here is in agreeance that we want Challenging PvE content for players who enjoy PvE.

CaptnChuck

Bricktop wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

[*] PvP and PvE is intertwined because there is no "gear for PvP only". The PvPers will need materials that only PvE bosses drop. In the other direction, the particular endgame raids available on each server depend entirely on Node control - which is ultimately PvP only.

Rewards for arena ladders will be revealed at a later time.[5]
Titles can be received from arena play.[6]
Arena points that can be used to buy gear are not currently in the design.[6]

There is possibility for Arena-based gear.

maouw wrote: »

I also disagree with your desire for more instancing - it directly disrupts socialization in the game, undercuts the economy and breaks suspension of disbelief. Instancing is all about solving "I want it now, without having to wait for someone else" - but that's the intention! Having highly contested content creates economy.

I don't WANT it. I want challenging PvE content. And if they can do it with Open World content, then I have absolutely no problem with it. What i said was only a POSSIBLE solution. So far I haven't seen any MMO achieve a solid level of challenge for open world content. Hence the suggestion.

The suggestion that completely goes against the core design philosophy of the game (Open world player driven), which is what everyone is arguing against. Everybody here is in agreeance that we want Challenging PvE content for players who enjoy PvE.

I'm not making it completely instanced, you still need to do resource dungeons if you wish to enchant and progress your gear further (similar to L2). These resource dungeons are Open-world. Even if you do instanced PvE for gear, like in my suggestion, you still have to do these resource dungeons if you wish to progress your gear further.

If people don't like my suggestion, then so be it. Its just what I think would be a way to do it.

Ultimately, I want the same thing as all of you, Challenging PvE content. Whether that is instanced or open-world, I don't care.

bigepeen

CaptnChuck wrote: »

I'm not making it completely instanced, you still need to do resource dungeons if you wish to enchant and progress your gear further (similar to L2). And if people don't like my suggestion, then so be it. Its just what I think would be a way to do it. Ultimately, I want the same thing as all of you, Challenging PvE content. Whether that is instanced or open-world, I don't care.

This is what you just said. And then, here is what you said before:

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

PvX doesn't mean you can do it all separately.
PvX means that they are all intertwined.

Besides, I'm not asking for PvE content to be purely instanced. Only 50/50. The enchant/resource dungeons are open world while gear based dungeons are instanced.

You obviously do care if it is instanced or open-world if you are pushing for a higher ratio of instanced PvE content.

CaptnChuck

bigepeen wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

I'm not making it completely instanced, you still need to do resource dungeons if you wish to enchant and progress your gear further (similar to L2). And if people don't like my suggestion, then so be it. Its just what I think would be a way to do it. Ultimately, I want the same thing as all of you, Challenging PvE content. Whether that is instanced or open-world, I don't care.

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

PvX doesn't mean you can do it all separately.
PvX means that they are all intertwined.

Besides, I'm not asking for PvE content to be purely instanced. Only 50/50. The enchant/resource dungeons are open world while gear based dungeons are instanced.

You obviously do care if it is instanced or open-world if you are pushing for a higher ratio of instanced PvE content.

You don't understand. When I said 50/50, I was talking about my suggestion. That suggestion came about because I've not seen challenging open world content in previous MMOs. If ashes manages to create challenging open world PvE content, then I have 0 problems with it. Its just that a lot of MMOs have tried and failed.

Bricktop

CaptnChuck wrote: »

bigepeen wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

I'm not making it completely instanced, you still need to do resource dungeons if you wish to enchant and progress your gear further (similar to L2). And if people don't like my suggestion, then so be it. Its just what I think would be a way to do it. Ultimately, I want the same thing as all of you, Challenging PvE content. Whether that is instanced or open-world, I don't care.

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

PvX doesn't mean you can do it all separately.
PvX means that they are all intertwined.

Besides, I'm not asking for PvE content to be purely instanced. Only 50/50. The enchant/resource dungeons are open world while gear based dungeons are instanced.

You obviously do care if it is instanced or open-world if you are pushing for a higher ratio of instanced PvE content.

You don't understand. When I said 50/50, I was talking about my suggestion. That suggestion came about because I've not seen challenging open world content. Hence why I said, I don't care if its instanced or not. If ashes manages to create challenging open world PvE content, then I have 0 problems with it.

They haven't really showed off any content yet thoroughly, so maybe we should wait and see before suggesting a 50% instanced game?

Grievousness

So anyone has a better idea than instancing?

Bricktop

Grievousness wrote: »

So anyone has a better idea than instancing?

Wait and see what the PvE content in the game actually looks and plays like is one

CaptnChuck

Bricktop wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

bigepeen wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

I'm not making it completely instanced, you still need to do resource dungeons if you wish to enchant and progress your gear further (similar to L2). And if people don't like my suggestion, then so be it. Its just what I think would be a way to do it. Ultimately, I want the same thing as all of you, Challenging PvE content. Whether that is instanced or open-world, I don't care.

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

PvX doesn't mean you can do it all separately.
PvX means that they are all intertwined.

Besides, I'm not asking for PvE content to be purely instanced. Only 50/50. The enchant/resource dungeons are open world while gear based dungeons are instanced.

You obviously do care if it is instanced or open-world if you are pushing for a higher ratio of instanced PvE content.

You don't understand. When I said 50/50, I was talking about my suggestion. That suggestion came about because I've not seen challenging open world content. Hence why I said, I don't care if its instanced or not. If ashes manages to create challenging open world PvE content, then I have 0 problems with it.

They haven't really showed off any content yet thoroughly, so maybe we should wait and see before suggesting a 50% instanced game?

I doubt that it will be different from how I picture it. I've seen some of the previous dungeon footage. I hope that I'm wrong, but I don't know. Hence why I made a post now.

Also, stop asking people to wait. There is nothing wrong in making educated guesses about how systems are going to turn out, based on previous MMOs, and finding possible solutions for it. By your logic, nothing should ever be discussed on this forum as nothing has been revealed yet. Why discuss multiboxing or corruption if we don't know exactly how its going to function?

bigepeen

CaptnChuck wrote: »

bigepeen wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

I'm not making it completely instanced, you still need to do resource dungeons if you wish to enchant and progress your gear further (similar to L2). And if people don't like my suggestion, then so be it. Its just what I think would be a way to do it. Ultimately, I want the same thing as all of you, Challenging PvE content. Whether that is instanced or open-world, I don't care.

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

PvX doesn't mean you can do it all separately.
PvX means that they are all intertwined.

Besides, I'm not asking for PvE content to be purely instanced. Only 50/50. The enchant/resource dungeons are open world while gear based dungeons are instanced.

You obviously do care if it is instanced or open-world if you are pushing for a higher ratio of instanced PvE content.

You don't understand. When I said 50/50, I was talking about my suggestion. That suggestion came about because I've not seen challenging open world content in previous MMOs. If ashes manages to create challenging open world PvE content, then I have 0 problems with it. Its just that a lot of MMOs have tried and failed.

Then you should be fine with the 80/20 ratio. Please stop pushing for more instanced content when we don't know about the layout of the PvE dungeons/raids, or how difficult they will be. Besides, there are plenty of ways for IS to increase difficulty, and Steven has even mentioned that this difficulty will be dynamic, adjusting to how well you are doing at different points in the dungeon/raid.

Vyraka

Bricktop wrote: »

Grievousness wrote: »

So anyone has a better idea than instancing?

Wait and see what the PvE content in the game actually looks and plays like is one

I agree. I think the horse has been beaten to death on this one. It's hard to say - give me something better and more difficult when I haven't even had a chance to create a character in the game.

CaptnChuck

Grievousness wrote: »

So anyone has a better idea than instancing?

I mentioned one in my post. Make multiple rooms and levels for each dungeon/raid so that players aren't forced to constantly contest other groups.

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