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My Concern for Heavy Armors

SqueezySqueezy Member
edited September 2020 in General Discussion
I've been following AOC for several months now and have watched most of the videos showing off game play, weapons and armors. I know all of the footage and images are still in pre-alpha, but that is why I want to address this now. I'm going to post some official art from the Ashes of Creation Dev team and compare them to other art and games.
ss-2020-05-30-00_50_21-00002.png
vlcsnap-2019-08-01-10h32m19s253.png
kaelar-20-armor-plate-22m58.png
AshesOfCreation_ProductionArt_025.jpg


The Pros
I think overall, the armor is extremely good looking, elegant and well detailed.
Female Plate isn't useless or skimpy, and actually protects the vital organs.
The armors are impressively diversified racially and match the aesthetics of each race fairly well.

Concerns
My number one BIGGEST concern is that the armor looks flat. I don't mean this in the sense of low polygon counts or lack of detail. I mean that it doesn't have the FEEL of bulky heavy armor. If you look at the gameplay livestreams where Steven is playing the tank, he looks almost indistinguishable from a mage or a healer in outline. The shoulders are small, the breastplate wraps tightly around him like leather armor and doesn't have any apparent weight. Now i'm not a huge stickler for graphics, but I think this might be a big problem for the sake of immersion and class diversity in the long run.

52208.jpg?cb=4E37B0136549EE3915318F12AA147596
The Lions Regalia Armor however looks amazing it looks bulky, protective and distinguishes itself from the armors above.
wx5kozpcax4p.jpg
Also this concept piece looks very strong and bulky.

Conclusion Overall I think there isn't enough "Fantasy Bulkiness" in the heavier armors please let me know what you guys think, and let me know if you have any counterpoints!

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Comments

  • I agree that in what they have showed us thus far the tank looks rather squishy.

    It is good to keep an eye on this during development to see if it's simply that they haven't come around to the heavy sets, or if it really is going to end up like that.

    What I think is that they haven't showed us the heavy sets, because we have seen art of stuff that does look heavy like these:
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Face_of_Sorrow
    Face_of_Sorrow.png
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Protector's_Armor
    Protector%27s_Armor.png
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Titanbark_Mail
    Titanbark_Mail.png
  • Bare in mind any gameplay we’ve seen so far are of level 10 characters, it’s all part of the armour progression at lower levels armour is simplistic and in most cases not as bulky then as they progress through the levels more bulk and protection (look) is added to the armour. At least that is the case I’ve seen in most games.

    Most non-in game concepts are for the cosmetic items which do not follow the progression paths normal armour will which is why they look more appropriate than what has been shown so far in game
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I honestly like the direction they are going in so far. They don't have the obnoxious World of Warcraft giga pauldrons that are bigger than the characters head. That type of thing is fine in some settings, but I feel like it is over done.

    Historically I think armors bulk came from layers. You could have cloth,leather, and chain mail under plate from what I understand. The plate itself would get a lot of its strength from the shape. If you look at AoC concept art. It looks like that they are going for.

    Another thing to consider is that in being conservative with armor bulkiness they can minimize a lot of the clipping issues that other games run into. Having ultra thick and spiky parts just makes it ugly when you mix and match parts from sets.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • VarkunVarkun Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    A good point as someone who plays a tank main I do like my heavy armour to look heavy and match my role. The armour they have shown so far has been stated as being lower level and this makes sense as alpha 1 is supposed to have a level cap of 20 thus they would be making the armours to match.

    Armour should have some bulk to it as it is those layers of cloth chain and plate that give it its bulk and thus its protection.
    3KAqRIf.png
    Close your eyes spread your arms and always trust your cape.
  • I agree, from what we have seen from gameplay, the armor is good looking but I would like to see a bigger difference in armor classes.

    I’m hoping that it’s a bigger difference in the endgame armor sets, but right now we only have hand drawn images of that kind of armor, so I would like to see how it looks in game, also next to different armor classes so we can better see the difference the armor makes.
    Member_Baconbread.png
  • @Squeezy I agree, but one thing I'd like to ask is, where is that last armor set you posted from? I think it looks amazing.
  • I agree that we need bulkier armor for tanks, it's a fantasy game so yes, big big armor.
  • Tres wrote: »
    I agree that in what they have showed us thus far the tank looks rather squishy.

    It is good to keep an eye on this during development to see if it's simply that they haven't come around to the heavy sets, or if it really is going to end up like that.

    What I think is that they haven't showed us the heavy sets, because we have seen art of stuff that does look heavy like these:
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Face_of_Sorrow
    Face_of_Sorrow.png
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Protector's_Armor
    Protector%27s_Armor.png
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Titanbark_Mail
    Titanbark_Mail.png

    Those bottom two armor sets look amazing. The first one is okay too but I think its just not my preference.

    @Vhaeyne I agree, WoW overdoes it but at the same time things don’t have to look historically accurate, they have to look good and distinguish them from other set types.

    @Merek actually found it on an old forum post and it isnt actually ashes of creation official art, I just realized this now while looking for it again. Credit to @ArchivedUser for posting it here: https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/33857/armor-styles-designs-exc/p1
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  • Guys you have to understand that there is no class set in AoC in the classic way to speak of.

    You will see full plate mage that are almost as efficient as a clothes one.

    But for the designs, we should see more massive armor when they show late game content.
  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    My second favourite heavy armor currently:
    450px-Sentinel_Greatcoat.png



    What my favourite one is? The Obsidian Armor from APOC that I got in the last day of testing in the first run of it before they made the Network update.
    roaaztC.gif
  • Gimlog wrote: »
    Guys you have to understand that there is no class set in AoC in the classic way to speak of.

    You will see full plate mage that are almost as efficient as a clothes one.

    But for the designs, we should see more massive armor when they show late game content.

    That is true but I still want a battle mage wearing plate to look fantasy bulky and protective.
    Ymir-Transparent-Background.png
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  • KhronusKhronus Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I hate to bring up wow but I thoroughly enjoyed the armor design from them. Not all of them but some definitely deserve praise. As a main tank, I want my armor to look huge. I am even going with Orc (assuming it is the largest in size), because I really want to be a presence recognized from afar. Flat sleek is not my thing haha.
  • KHRONUS wrote: »
    I hate to bring up wow but I thoroughly enjoyed the armor design from them. Not all of them but some definitely deserve praise. As a main tank, I want my armor to look huge. I am even going with Orc (assuming it is the largest in size), because I really want to be a presence recognized from afar. Flat sleek is not my thing haha.

    I don't disagree, keeping on topic of plate armors, take a look at this. 142e2c9fbeb07d6deef852499fcb88e2.jpg

    That armor was made some 13 years ago and even though the polygon count is low, the bulk is there. The shape itself is gorgeous.
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  • No this game should NOT have an abundance of world of warcraft pauldron-bigger-than-head armor sets.
    Those are ridiculous.
  • PlagueMonkPlagueMonk Member
    edited September 2020
    Squeezy wrote: »
    KHRONUS wrote: »
    I hate to bring up wow but I thoroughly enjoyed the armor design from them. Not all of them but some definitely deserve praise. As a main tank, I want my armor to look huge. I am even going with Orc (assuming it is the largest in size), because I really want to be a presence recognized from afar. Flat sleek is not my thing haha.

    I don't disagree, keeping on topic of plate armors, take a look at this. 142e2c9fbeb07d6deef852499fcb88e2.jpg

    That armor was made some 13 years ago and even though the polygon count is low, the bulk is there. The shape itself is gorgeous.

    So while the Devs are busily trying to interject some realism into the art assets (some garish weapons not withstanding), you are telling me you want WoW style armor (i.e. pauldrons that are literally BIGGER than the breastplate, not to mention how small his head now looks)?

    You do realize the armor in the OPs post is closer to what full armor would look actually look like in real life, right? I would recommend doing some research before answering.

    I personally LIKE the direction they are headed so we don't have goofy, over the top WoW style armor sets. What WoW has works for WoW but I would hope AoC tries to stay closer to the realistic side.

    Also I seem to recall that there won't be traditional armor restrictions, so a Mage for example could wear heavy armor, but at some penalty to their magic ability. So with all classes having a mishmash of styles, not to mention 64 different class combos it might not be so easy to distinguish a caster type at a glance anyway.
    isFikWd2_o.jpg
  • AardvarkAardvark Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited September 2020
    We want the game to succeed and nice looks help with that. I personally want better armor too as a lot of them make you look like either a peasant or apprentice which is ok for level 10 but not at 50. Please make some good looking armors and not all this super basic stuff. Remember there is nothing less realistic about a 40lb hammer than there is about shooting fireballs out of your hand
  • PlagueMonk wrote: »
    Squeezy wrote: »
    KHRONUS wrote: »
    I hate to bring up wow but I thoroughly enjoyed the armor design from them. Not all of them but some definitely deserve praise. As a main tank, I want my armor to look huge. I am even going with Orc (assuming it is the largest in size), because I really want to be a presence recognized from afar. Flat sleek is not my thing haha.

    I don't disagree, keeping on topic of plate armors, take a look at this. 142e2c9fbeb07d6deef852499fcb88e2.jpg

    That armor was made some 13 years ago and even though the polygon count is low, the bulk is there. The shape itself is gorgeous.

    So while the Devs are busily trying to interject some realism into the art assets (some garish weapons not withstanding), you are telling me you want WoW style armor (i.e. pauldrons that are literally BIGGER than the breastplate, not to mention how small his head now looks)?

    You do realize the armor in the OPs post is closer to what full armor would look actually look like in real life, right? I would recommend doing some research before answering.

    I personally LIKE the direction they are headed so we don't have goofy, over the top WoW style armor sets. What WoW has works for WoW but I would hope AoC tries to stay closer to the realistic side.

    Also I seem to recall that there won't be traditional armor restrictions, so a Mage for example could wear heavy armor, but at some penalty to their magic ability. So with all classes having a mishmash of styles, not to mention 64 different class combos it might not be so easy to distinguish a caster type at a glance anyway.

    I’m saying artistically, the bulk is there. I’m not classifying it as the end all and be all of heavy armor and im not saying that its realistic. I know what full armor actually looks like, I’ve literally written papers about medieval warfare on infantrymen and knights armor, thats not the point. Just because something is closer to what it would actually look like in in real life doesn’t make it better in a VIDEO GAME. Also if you look at my first post I specifically show 3 or 4 armors that are much less dramatic than the WoW armor and still look great. This is high fantasy we don’t need obnoxious shoulders but we also don’t need realistic renditions of unsatisfying chainmail hauberks and gambesons.

    Tldr: Studded Leather is cooler than a brigandine.
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  • Squeezy wrote: »
    I’m saying artistically, the bulk is there. I’m not classifying it as the end all and be all of heavy armor and im not saying that its realistic. I know what full armor actually looks like, I’ve literally written papers about medieval warfare on infantrymen and knights armor, thats not the point. Just because something is closer to what it would actually look like in in real life doesn’t make it better in a VIDEO GAME. Also if you look at my first post I specifically show 3 or 4 armors that are much less dramatic than the WoW armor and still look great. This is high fantasy we don’t need obnoxious shoulders but we also don’t need realistic renditions of unsatisfying chainmail hauberks and gambesons.

    Tldr: Studded Leather is cooler than a brigandine.

    While, yes, this is just a video game, I would hope IS sticks to a certain level of realism. I can understand wanting a more 'fantasy' look (I said nothing about the completely UNrealistic face of sorrow armor in Tres post. All those points, while looking cool are definitely not practical) but please lets not get WoW crazy. There was a Dev topic about immersion and I should have listed things like that WoW armor as immersion breaking for me. That and carrying around FF sized weapons :#

    Just remember, one of the reasons you wanted this bulkier look was to more easily see the tanks as opposed to casters. Well with 8 classes and x8 variations, that will cause so much mixing PLUS everyone being able to wear anything, I don't think you will be able to easily tell who is playing what based on what they are wearing.

    isFikWd2_o.jpg
  • AardvarkAardvark Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    PlagueMonk wrote: »
    Squeezy wrote: »
    I’m saying artistically, the bulk is there. I’m not classifying it as the end all and be all of heavy armor and im not saying that its realistic. I know what full armor actually looks like, I’ve literally written papers about medieval warfare on infantrymen and knights armor, thats not the point. Just because something is closer to what it would actually look like in in real life doesn’t make it better in a VIDEO GAME. Also if you look at my first post I specifically show 3 or 4 armors that are much less dramatic than the WoW armor and still look great. This is high fantasy we don’t need obnoxious shoulders but we also don’t need realistic renditions of unsatisfying chainmail hauberks and gambesons.

    Tldr: Studded Leather is cooler than a brigandine.

    While, yes, this is just a video game, I would hope IS sticks to a certain level of realism. I can understand wanting a more 'fantasy' look (I said nothing about the completely UNrealistic face of sorrow armor in Tres post. All those points, while looking cool are definitely not practical) but please lets not get WoW crazy. There was a Dev topic about immersion and I should have listed things like that WoW armor as immersion breaking for me. That and carrying around FF sized weapons :#

    Just remember, one of the reasons you wanted this bulkier look was to more easily see the tanks as opposed to casters. Well with 8 classes and x8 variations, that will cause so much mixing PLUS everyone being able to wear anything, I don't think you will be able to easily tell who is playing what based on what they are wearing.

    Mage in cloth with tank cosmetic skin on
  • Valento92Valento92 Member
    edited September 2020
    Well when you're a lowlevel paladin of sorts it makes sense that from a story standpoint your armor still looks not so bulky as in you're still an amateur. On the other hand I hope they add more weight on late game heavy armor sets. And PLEASE, keep female armor actually a heavy armor because if a female decides to war as a tank she will need to protect herself too.
    "Magic is not a tool, little one. It is a river that unites us in its current."

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  • Squeezy wrote: »
    I've been following AOC for several months now and have watched most of the videos showing off game play, weapons and armors. I know all of the footage and images are still in pre-alpha, but that is why I want to address this now. I'm going to post some official art from the Ashes of Creation Dev team and compare them to other art and games.
    ss-2020-05-30-00_50_21-00002.png
    vlcsnap-2019-08-01-10h32m19s253.png
    kaelar-20-armor-plate-22m58.png
    AshesOfCreation_ProductionArt_025.jpg


    The Pros
    I think overall, the armor is extremely good looking, elegant and well detailed.
    Female Plate isn't useless or skimpy, and actually protects the vital organs.
    The armors are impressively diversified racially and match the aesthetics of each race fairly well.

    Concerns
    My number one BIGGEST concern is that the armor looks flat. I don't mean this in the sense of low polygon counts or lack of detail. I mean that it doesn't have the FEEL of bulky heavy armor. If you look at the gameplay livestreams where Steven is playing the tank, he looks almost indistinguishable from a mage or a healer in outline. The shoulders are small, the breastplate wraps tightly around him like leather armor and doesn't have any apparent weight. Now i'm not a huge stickler for graphics, but I think this might be a big problem for the sake of immersion and class diversity in the long run.

    52208.jpg?cb=4E37B0136549EE3915318F12AA147596
    The Lions Regalia Armor however looks amazing it looks bulky, protective and distinguishes itself from the armors above.
    wx5kozpcax4p.jpg
    Also this concept piece looks very strong and bulky.

    Conclusion Overall I think there isn't enough "Fantasy Bulkiness" in the heavier armors please let me know what you guys think, and let me know if you have any counterpoints!

    The 3d effects of the armour, the "bulkiness" gets added later in the design phase so I wouldn't worry. I remember seeing armour in WoW as an early draft and thinking it looked that way and then when they released it it was too far the other way lol
  • PlagueMonk wrote: »
    Squeezy wrote: »
    I’m saying artistically, the bulk is there. I’m not classifying it as the end all and be all of heavy armor and im not saying that its realistic. I know what full armor actually looks like, I’ve literally written papers about medieval warfare on infantrymen and knights armor, thats not the point. Just because something is closer to what it would actually look like in in real life doesn’t make it better in a VIDEO GAME. Also if you look at my first post I specifically show 3 or 4 armors that are much less dramatic than the WoW armor and still look great. This is high fantasy we don’t need obnoxious shoulders but we also don’t need realistic renditions of unsatisfying chainmail hauberks and gambesons.

    Tldr: Studded Leather is cooler than a brigandine.

    While, yes, this is just a video game, I would hope IS sticks to a certain level of realism. I can understand wanting a more 'fantasy' look (I said nothing about the completely UNrealistic face of sorrow armor in Tres post. All those points, while looking cool are definitely not practical) but please lets not get WoW crazy. There was a Dev topic about immersion and I should have listed things like that WoW armor as immersion breaking for me. That and carrying around FF sized weapons :#

    Just remember, one of the reasons you wanted this bulkier look was to more easily see the tanks as opposed to casters. Well with 8 classes and x8 variations, that will cause so much mixing PLUS everyone being able to wear anything, I don't think you will be able to easily tell who is playing what based on what they are wearing.
    Been practical or not does not matter, its a game. However been too practical can also hurt and been boring for the game. We don't want bulky armor to tell each other a part, its just that bulky armor look good and match that class look&feel overall. We don't want armor to look like w.o.w but we don't want it to look too simple/realistic, its a fantasy game to be what you want to be, not a clone of real life.
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited February 2021
    I really like the current armor sets we've seen. I sure don't want World of Pauldrons armor looks as the default.

    That said, I don't mind having bulky fantasy armor options as well as the more realistic options. I'm a long-time Warhammer fan, and I absolutely love the Chaos armors for example. All the spikes and stuff are ridiculously impractical in RL combat scenarios, but they do look badass :smile:

    Give me something like the armor below, and I would 100% make a character just to wear it.

    WdOmjaf.jpg
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    The other thing to keep in mind is that armour is not distringuished by class in AoC but by race.

    I totally see where you're coming from though - some of the heavier armours we've seen look quite slim-fitted, rather than bulky
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • HonshuHonshu Member
    edited February 2021
    There's a couple ways to approach this.

    From a """realism""" standpoint (note: I am not advocating for realism in video games. Seeking "realism" is dumb because what is "realistic" may or may not actually bring about good game design) there is literally nothing wrong with what you are referring to as "smooth" platemail. Historically speaking, this sort of armor was not "big and bulky and hard to move in." That is a grotesque misconception brought about by armchair historians who have never had practical experience in the field of metallurgy and the demands of medieval warfare. Platemail was designed in large part to have its weight distributed evenly throughout the body, providing superior protection at nearly no cost to agility or maneuverability.

    https://youtu.be/kK2S6WoPonY

    In this sense, I see nothing wrong with "streamlined" armor.

    Now, in the sense of building a visual distinction between classes and helping players to quickly identify archetypes at a glance, there may be an issue here. If the developers intend to allow for visual distinctiveness so that players can readily identify players by their equipment, this style of """realistic""" armor runs contrary to the design goal. If they aren't shooting for that, and are instead aiming for a soft "fog of war" that makes it potentially difficult to determine who is capable of what at a glance, this is exactly what they want; armor that does not have a silhouette that is readily different from leather, cloth, or other sorts of armor associated with casters.

    According to the wiki, there is likely to be a "threat assessment" feature on someone's nameplate that will tell you what they're predominantly wearing (cloth, leather, plate, etc), and a number of other features regarding their equipment. Personally, I hope they don't bother with this feature because I prefer games with more fog of war, more interference with your ability to assess who is what, such as Dark Age of Camelot, where you could not readily assess class at a glance. It rewards careful observation and, given what they propose, I think will reduce visual clutter.
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I had hope scale mail would be medium armour, not heavy armour.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • MushinMushin Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I would like it so we don't get impaled by our pauldrons when we raise our arms
  • WhitneyHagasMatsumotoWhitneyHagasMatsumoto Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    It's a subjective preference, so it's not easy. ......

    As for me, I don't mind if it's a bit flashy as long as it doesn't spoil the world view of Ashes.

    However, I don't like it if it looks too cartoony.

    This is a discussion of character design, but I want a design like Dark Souls, and I'm not that fond of the slightly rounded design like Fable.

    However, it might not bother me that much if there are a few of them mixed in with the many armors. :)

    I'm sorry for my half-hearted opinion. lol
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