Greetings, glorious testers!
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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Look to your Community if you need talent
Paradoxically
Member
I've always been confused about one thing in games.
Normally Devs dont think to look for talent in there area. Think of voice acting, no one wants to read through dialogue, its boring and breaks immersion. But I can promise you huge games like this one have voice acting fans. One of the hardest things to do as a new voice actor is to get experience. If the Devs can't get a voice for a minor character they could always post an audition for the role. It would allow new voice actors a chance to get there foot in the door and work with a team, an invaluable experience. It would also fill in the world and make it come alive. I highly recommend looking in your area and creating an internship program for new voice actors.
Givin, I have no idea how that is coming along. I'm just hoping that if this is an issue, that you see this, and your team is able to create an even better game. I'm super hype for this coming alpha 2. So I'm just hoping to help in anyway I can. I'd love to see others Ideas about this and what they think about giving minor character slots away to students or up and coming voice actors in the community. Also if it doesn't work out then it doesn't, its a very low cost investment of a few hours. With 2 years of time before the game is out you have a lot of extra time.
You could even use your community to find the best voice actors of the bunch, make the application's a form post and have the community up vote there favorites so the trolls and less practiced dont take up your time. Obviously this is a harsh plan but if you dont have the time to look through the auditions its a alright idea. Just make it a positive experience on the form to the best of your abilities. Again this is just if you first need the voice actors, and second dont have the time to look through all of the application on your own.
If your not sure about the idea you could try making a poll about it and seeing what the community thinks. It could double as a bold move on your part and even spread the word about your game.
Just a side note I gain nothing out of this, I'm not a voice actor, I just follow quite a few of them online and they always talk about how hard it was to get that first bit of experience, especially under a competent director. So I figure that this would be a win/win and is definitely a reasonable idea.
Sorry for any errors in spelling or grammar. It's late I'm tired. lol
Edit: I was talking with a guy in the thread and wanted to clarify. I'm talking once this game has a community I've been here for 5 days or so and I recognize 50% of the people writing the posts. That's not bad forms are normally not very active and we are 2 years out.
In other words The game can launch without fulling voicing everyone. I'm saying that in a Sub to play game adding small installments of voices every few patches could be a great way to flesh out the game.
My only worry is if the game doesn't do as well as Im anticipating at launch, and the Devs feel pressure because most characters aren't voiced. Just gonna say it now so that doesn't happen, I dont need a fully voiced game, I'm fine reading text. But when this game takes off and becomes huge I'd love to see the world get fleshed out. XD much love no matter what the Devs decide. I'm gonna fully stand behind them. You dont get great Devs like them very often.
(Lol I completely understand where the confusion came from, "With 2 years of time before the game is out you have a lot of extra time." I was just mentioning it bc if they thought it was a good idea having this system to fall back on beforehand would be handy.)
Normally Devs dont think to look for talent in there area. Think of voice acting, no one wants to read through dialogue, its boring and breaks immersion. But I can promise you huge games like this one have voice acting fans. One of the hardest things to do as a new voice actor is to get experience. If the Devs can't get a voice for a minor character they could always post an audition for the role. It would allow new voice actors a chance to get there foot in the door and work with a team, an invaluable experience. It would also fill in the world and make it come alive. I highly recommend looking in your area and creating an internship program for new voice actors.
Givin, I have no idea how that is coming along. I'm just hoping that if this is an issue, that you see this, and your team is able to create an even better game. I'm super hype for this coming alpha 2. So I'm just hoping to help in anyway I can. I'd love to see others Ideas about this and what they think about giving minor character slots away to students or up and coming voice actors in the community. Also if it doesn't work out then it doesn't, its a very low cost investment of a few hours. With 2 years of time before the game is out you have a lot of extra time.
You could even use your community to find the best voice actors of the bunch, make the application's a form post and have the community up vote there favorites so the trolls and less practiced dont take up your time. Obviously this is a harsh plan but if you dont have the time to look through the auditions its a alright idea. Just make it a positive experience on the form to the best of your abilities. Again this is just if you first need the voice actors, and second dont have the time to look through all of the application on your own.
If your not sure about the idea you could try making a poll about it and seeing what the community thinks. It could double as a bold move on your part and even spread the word about your game.
Just a side note I gain nothing out of this, I'm not a voice actor, I just follow quite a few of them online and they always talk about how hard it was to get that first bit of experience, especially under a competent director. So I figure that this would be a win/win and is definitely a reasonable idea.
Sorry for any errors in spelling or grammar. It's late I'm tired. lol
Edit: I was talking with a guy in the thread and wanted to clarify. I'm talking once this game has a community I've been here for 5 days or so and I recognize 50% of the people writing the posts. That's not bad forms are normally not very active and we are 2 years out.
In other words The game can launch without fulling voicing everyone. I'm saying that in a Sub to play game adding small installments of voices every few patches could be a great way to flesh out the game.
My only worry is if the game doesn't do as well as Im anticipating at launch, and the Devs feel pressure because most characters aren't voiced. Just gonna say it now so that doesn't happen, I dont need a fully voiced game, I'm fine reading text. But when this game takes off and becomes huge I'd love to see the world get fleshed out. XD much love no matter what the Devs decide. I'm gonna fully stand behind them. You dont get great Devs like them very often.
(Lol I completely understand where the confusion came from, "With 2 years of time before the game is out you have a lot of extra time." I was just mentioning it bc if they thought it was a good idea having this system to fall back on beforehand would be handy.)
5
Comments
I have a favorite but that's because he narrated my novel, Pray. Wayne June is the man! He's done a bunch of Lovecraft audio books as well. You should definitely check him out.
I've actually heard of him, I was really into the SCP verse for awhile and he popped into my feed. I 100% need to go back a listen to some of the stories he voiced though.
Im listening to your book.
Even having some passable voice talent in the AoC community provide filler ADR while scheduling professional talent would be a cool way to contribute and to your point get some no risk experience.
Im glad you like it.
You could call great ideas talent in a way
1) The major cost for the voice acting isn't paying the actors. It's the tens, and hundreds, and thousands of hours of reading the lines, getting the right take on the line, and then the sound engineering to process hundreds of thousands of lines. SWTOR spend roughly $90,000,000 on the voice acting portion of the game, including voice actor salaries and sound engineering. That's $90m out of a total $400m budget for the game, and $90m out of the $200m that went into the actual game development (the rest was advertising, licensing, marketing, studio overhead, etc)
2) Once you give someone a cookie, they want a glass of milk. Once you had someone work for free and your game is a hit, they aren't going to want to work for free on the sequel. Or they may not be available to work for free on the sequel. FFXIV has this issue with their voice over actors. They have changed some actors in between expansions and it totally ruins the immersion when you get a different voice actor.
True, for principal characters, but for random NPCs it would be cool to get some community members in there. Why not let Joe Schmo be drunk #4, dying outlaw victim #57, or orc consort #6?
Voice acted extras fill out the world, increase immersion, and you have someone bragging to their family that they worked tirelessly to get that perfect blend of ‘gutteral’ and ‘sultry’ juuust right.
But who said they need to have all characters voiced at launch? I'm Subbing to play so with every other update or so they could release a small character voice pack and slowly develop the game into a more alive game. Not to mention a lot of people are gonna be dropping hundreds to get into alpha 2 (including me XD)
This is an issue EQ2 had.
Christopher Lee, Heather Graham, Minnie Driver and Wil Wheaton were all used as voice actors in the games original release, but were all unable to return for any expansions (for a multitude of reasons).
Honestly though, I was going to make a point similar to the first point you made. The cost of voice acting is routinely 25% or more of the total cost of a game, but most of the cost of voice acting isn't paying the voice actors. Most of the cost is the studio and sound engineering - and that is a cost that increases the less professional your voice actors are. More professional voice actors get it right sooner, meaning less studio time and faster work for engineers - this is why people are reluctant to use amateur voice actors.
It also doesn't matter if this cost is all before the game releases, or if it is spread out over many years - in fact, it will likely end up costing more if spread out (it will be harder and thus more expensive to maintain consistency if the process is drawn out).
I personally like voice acting in games - along with ambient sounds, combat sounds and title music, it is the only sound I really leave on in most RPG games.
However, I also know the cost associated with it, and so I fully understand why it doesn't exist in some games, and why the quality of it (both in terms of acting and from a more technical perspective) are often lacking in even some AAA games.
Two things I am not keen on though, are partial voice acting, and using amateurs for voice acting.
Using amateurs costs more than using professionals - even if they are free. Studio and sound engineering make sure of that - and you really don't want to cheap out on those two.
As to partial voice acting, it is quite jarring to me to be going through an area running a few quests or some such, reading all the stories as I go, to suddenly find that one of the quests in the area - and only one of them - is voiced. Even worse is if it is the other way aroud, you are doing quests that are voiced, and then come across one that isn't. You would naturally neglect that one that isn't voiced, mush as people naturally neglect NPC's that are voiced with the generic NPC dialog.
I also can't see how they could voice act one region at a time - this would be just as jarring when you move between them.
Keep in mind all those "hundreds" go to the game development. That money will be spent getting the product out the door, it won't be sitting in a pile waiting around to do voice acting.
Your monthly subscription, that doesn't generate nearly as much money as people think. 5% goes right off the topic to Epic Games in royalties. 30% goes right to Federal and California state taxes. Take out payroll and then add 6% payroll take on top of that, that $15 per person gets whittled down very quickly.
When you come up with the statement "there are work arounds for the cost" but you don't actually list them out, they are basically a fantasy land answer.
Why should side characters in the main plot be voiced before doing say cinematics? Why should they do cinematics before the first expansion is finished?
Where will investing $1 produce the best results? If you invest $1 and get 30 cents return, that's a bad investment.
if the point doesn't sound like it was made against your argument then it wasn't.
Alright so the issue that I've read thats the most glaring is about the voice actors. I was saying host an audition. If no talent arises, then it doesn't fit the criteria. In other words you're not using bad, unprofessional voice actors. You're using diamonds in the rough that with slightly more polish would be well on their way to becoming professionals. This is not a saturated market. Most pros don't have a bunch of experience when compared to normal professions (as in other type of pros like other professions). That is Professional experience, I'm not saying they don't practice personally more or less then others. So the price really shouldn't be that different. Again if they aren't good don't use them. "have the community up vote their favorites so the trolls and less practiced don't take up your time."
Next Glaring issue, Games make money. That's a fact. Now the amount of money is different depending on the game but as I said in the edit above. I only would like voices to be added if the game blows up. Not if they are barely making a profit. Cosmetics, Subbing, pre-orders, investments, merch, ext. All of that makes money. Now while some money has to be spent to make money games wouldn't be a thing if you spent a dollar to make 30C. Again I was only putting in my 2 cents on what I would like to feel more immersed in the game over time. That brings me onto the next issue.
Adding voices per region is a dumb idea. That's true. But I'm talking about adding more filler lines. In other words you have a set amount of lines that filler NPC's can say. So slowly take the more important NPC's in batches and make the once dead characters into a alive ones. If for what ever reason you want a static world. Then Idk add new NPC's with those lines? That's done all the time btw. Think every DLC ever. I have no idea why you find more voices being added as un-immersive if anything thats a kinda common thing again DLC's. Are you gonna remember every single NPC and all of there lines in a T5 city? I don't think so. So having billy move in down the street from you shouldn't even effect you. Again this is a small thing so it shouldn't cost much a multi year plan where in one take you get all the lines you need and your done. The characters don't need voices past there original lines because at most they add a bit to the lore. Again this is done a lot. Think normal NPC's that don't talk to you vs the store vendor is that jarring to you? These would just be NPC's that give some lore/make the game feel fuller.
Also cinematic's are part of the main plot.... No idea what you think they are.... but I figured that was a no-brainer... "Don't voice everything, but side characters in the main plot should be voiced." Do I have to expressly say that if side characters need voices that main characters do too? Again cinematic's are expensive I don't think they will be adding any to side plots and offshoots from the main story. If I'm wrong then sure voice those too??? I really don't know what you want me to say you seemed really serious about this, and I thought that, that was a given. But my words don't expressly state that so, sure my guy.
Also also I was just mentioning that the hundreds should be able to offset some of the cost not afford them all of the cost. It will be a loss. I know that. Voice acting in and of itself is a loss of profit that Dev's take on to make the game attractive to their audience. I was just talking about one of the many ways to involve the community in that process. Paying actors is an expense, removing that expense for the same outcome is still a worth while venture if it can happen. Again I already went over some ways to find those better actors in my post.
"to suddenly find that one of the quests in the area - and only one of them - is voiced." That's actually my bad I did not mean for it to come off like that. Big oof. Well you should understand now. I don't like that side stories cant all be voiced but I'm not after side stories. Im just on about the main story and adding special npcs to make the game more alive. If side stories can get the same treatment I figure it has to happen before the game comes out...
"When you come up with the statement "there are work around's for the cost" but you don't actually list them out, they are basically a fantasy land answer." Did your brain cut out my idea? "There are work around's for cost. Don't voice everything", "But who said they need to have all characters voiced at launch?". That's the way to work around cost. Not cut cost, but work around it so its not so jarring. Like paying back a loan but in reverse. I talk about cost problems above in this comment. First paragraph.
I know a lot of that sounds rude but fr I'm just insensitive. Sorry if what I said make you upset that was not the intention.
Problem is, it is really easy to get some voice acting experience if that is what someone really wants to do.
Almost all local radio stations would happily have people that have shown interest in voice acting try reading adds. It wouldn't be paid, but there are a lot of industries out there where your first foot in the door is unpaid.
From there, these people should be getting an agent - once you've done that, the work you get will depend on how good you are as a voice actor, and how good your agent is.
The problem with using unprofessional voice actors is that almost without exception, they wouldn't have had vocal training. This means that while they may well be able to do a specific racial voice for a one off line, by the time they are 45 minutes of the way through a 4 hour session, they probably would have completely lost their voice (and perhaps done permanant damage - depending on the voice being recorded).
There are a lot of people out there that think a voice acting job can be done from home in your spare time or what ever, and that you are literally just talking in to a mic. These are people that have a dream of working from home, not people that have looked in to a potential profession.
Now, your last post seems to be more about wanting voice acting in Ashes rather than being about using unknown talent. The only reason I am able to come up with for this is that the notion of using unknown talent was nothing more than an angle you thought of using to try and persuade Intrepid to get voicing done on the cheap, not realizing that the voice actors were by far the smallest cost in an otherwise VERY expensive process.
If you took the time to read the original post you would see "It would allow new voice actors a chance to get there foot in the door and work with a team, an invaluable experience." This is "positive statement".
"Problem is, it is really easy to get some voice acting experience if that is what someone really wants to do."
This is a "negative statement" based on context. If you know anything about the debate you should know that negative statements hold the "burden of proof". Now please give me some. Because I dont for a second believe you. Read bellow before you start typing.
Any meaningful amount of time put into voice acting can only benefit you to a point. One of the biggest/best experiences for a new student/self starter voice actor is being under a great director. So these alright voice actors can be under a real professional and get experience in their field under someone that can quickly polish their skills.
Again btw you shifted the focus of my argument because you quit arguing facts and started to talk about subjective topics. So I'm following your lead. I'm not gonna do both I'm only able to type about 35 words a minute this is valuable time. Thank you.
Edit: Also no I'm not using voice actors. I'm trying to help find ways to cut cost in an otherwise very expensive process. I understand the costs. Any normal google search can make even an idiot understand this. But does that mean its a bad idea to set up a win/win???? No its not. No idea why you came at me like this but I dont appreciate it my guy. Anyways its kind of a dead argument.
Edit 2: Im convinced you just looked over my post and said its a bad idea. Never read anything. This quote was taken from my original post. "You could even use your community to find the best voice actors of the bunch, make the application's a form post and have the community up vote there favorites so the trolls and less practiced dont take up your time. Obviously this is a harsh plan but if you dont have the time to look through the auditions its a alright idea" It was a post about finding talented voice actors from the community and what it could save the company. Not about oh the voice actors feel bad for them. Im actually upset rn. I'm holding everything back from going in on you. Please read the post before you try and add to the conversation. Your a blind man trying to tell a normal guy that, "thats not red its green."
Edit 3: You even cut off my quote from the message that you just replied to.
"Alright so the issue that I've read thats the most glaring is about the voice actors. I was saying host an audition. If no talent arises, then it doesn't fit the criteria. In other words you're not using bad, unprofessional voice actors. You're using diamonds in the rough that with slightly more polish would be well on their way to becoming professionals. This is not a saturated market. Most pros don't have a bunch of experience when compared to normal professions (as in other type of pros like other professions). That is Professional experience, I'm not saying they don't practice personally more or less then others. So the price really shouldn't be that different. Again if they aren't good don't use them. "have the community up vote their favorites so the trolls and less practiced don't take up your time." See this last bit on the end that you cut off ( the part in bold)? That is the message you cut in half to fit your bs argument.
Edit 4 way after because why not: Straw man fallacy – misrepresenting an opponent's argument by broadening or narrowing the scope of a premise and refuting a weaker version (e.g.: saying “You tell us that A is the right thing to do, but the real reason you want us to do A is that you would personally profit from it).[
Anyway, to your point/proof. I'm honestly not sure why you posted that video as it doesn't really support your statements at all. The video is about how to not get overwhelmed by the tons and tons of information on how to get started as a voice actor, which is not in line with your arguments at all.
The thing about voice acting is that it's mostly done as contract freelance work. You will very rarely see jobs for permanent voice acting positions so the career path is very different to non-freelance work because there is simply no need to have a voice actor on staff all the time.
I honestly can't see an internship program working well for something like voice acting. It's not just a matter of bringing in the students. You need people to train and evaluate them. You need a course structure, and there are a ton of other hoops a company needs to jump through to get a internship or apprenticeship program started. Why go through all that effort when you can just put out a casting call and audition the hundreds of people already out there ready to go?
EDIT: But let's say there is an internship for voice actors. Someone with no experience comes in and does the internship, and at the end of it they have a nice shiny piece of paper and maybe a few voice demos to take with them. Great! It won't help them at all in finding work somewhere else. Sure that shiny piece of paper may mean something to them but it won't mean anything to companies looking to find a voice actor, so really all they have is a couple of voice demos which is the same as anyone else who is just getting started.
"Now, your last post seems to be more about wanting voice acting in Ashes rather than being about using unknown talent. The only reason I am able to come up with for this is that the notion of using unknown talent was nothing more than an angle you thought of using to try and persuade Intrepid to get voicing done on the cheap, not realizing that the voice actors were by far the smallest cost in an otherwise VERY expensive process."
The transition of factual to very opinionated seemed emotional to me. Let me read through the rest and respond by editing not trying to spam you.
Edit 1: So my point was that the direct contact with the director will give the same effect as working with a proper coach. lol I was so lost in defending myself that I forgot the point of defending myself.
Not gonna lie the internship was kinda just me giving an example of how you could involve others. You do make a good point that there are better ways to cast people though.
Voice acting in an MMO is only really of use if the game is targeted at the Blizzard crowd. People that have spent serious time in other games will either be used to no voice acting, voice acting in other languages, or will have far more concern about mechanics over aesthetic aspects of a game.
Right now, that is not the target market for Ashes.
Now, post launch, should Intrepid be at the point where the only path left for expansion of the game/company is to tap in to that market, and if they have $100,000,000 left after setting aside a big chunk for marketing, then I agree that it would absolutely be worth looking in to adding in voice acting at that point - but only at that point. I'm not even saying here that it would be worth doing - but it would be worth looking in to.
In order for that much of an expenditure to be worth it, Intrepid would need to assume that it would bring in at least $1,000,000,000 in revenue just from adding it, or 5.5 million subscriptions for a full year each. If they think voice acting would have that much pull, then absolutely I think they should add it. If they don't think it will, then absolutely they should not add it.
Adding it in piecemeal though, that is a bad idea - a worse idea in terms of immersion than not adding it in at all, and a more costly way of doing it when everything is done.
The only cost effective way to voice act a project this big (that would likely be in the range of 450 hours of voice acting if done), would be to hire out a studio for about 6 months, and the engineers for a further 12 months and get it all done in one block. If done piecemeal as you suggest, then the quality and consistency of the recordings would suffer greatly - actual projects set up the studio and then don't touch a damn thing in there until the entire thing is done.
If you want an example of this done poorly, listen very closely to "All of Me" by John Legend, and listen through the intro (use good headphones if you have them). After the first four bars of the piano intro, you will hear things drastically change for the remainder of the piano intro that should - in theory - be the same. Not a critique on the song - just on the recording.
This is what the game would be like if voice acting was added piecemeal. Every time an NPC talks to you in game, it wouldn't just be a one off, every recording session would be vastly different.
As to this "point" of yours... I'm just going to "nope" right out of it. I'm not even going to watch it.
People that know what they are talking about in regards to a specific industry work in that industry. People that don't know, make videos.
So, a director may be able to give a slightly more recognised referral than a coach, but at the end of the day companies will mostly be interested in the voice itself, which comes down to the voice demos and auditions.
Edit way after lmao: Moving the goalposts (raising the bar) – argument in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded.
In other word's dont lock the audition behind a pros only sign.
As I said earlier, if they find the perfect amateur voice actor for a specific role, but that actor is only able to hold that voice for a short amount of time, they have now gone from spending $5,000 on voicing that one minor character to spending $15,000 on it, and probably not having decent quality takes of every line.
You can't just cast complete unknowns, you need to know they are up to the task for a major project like this.
Small projects are fine for amateurs, not literal 8 - 9 figure projects.
Using a relatively inexperienced person is always a risk for a company.
Edit he does it x2: Moving the goalposts (raising the bar) – argument in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded.
Edit 2 he also has 2 falacies in the same comment: Vacuous truth – a claim that is technically true but meaningless, in the form of claiming that no A in B has C, when there is no A in B. For example, claiming that no mobile phones in the room are on when there are no mobile phones in the room at all.
I'm not joking word for work he typed "When I debate, I debate points." I didn't add that period. lmfao