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Replayability Ideas
frostborn4
Member
I wanted to put my ideas here to see how they are accepted by others and if they would be appropriate for in-game achievability.
TLDR: reincarnations / new generations with boosts / boosting long-term achievements
Backstory/reasoning
I have had bad experiences with games (MMORPG's mostly) in the past for several reasons.
1: because the games are very short lived, there is little to do, and once you do everything you originally set out to accomplish, everything is just 'meh' after that, and maybe just loyalty groundwork to continue going.
2: because the games may have only an end-game, which is not what everyone wants to do. Many people like myself enjoy the journey there, living the story line as you progress up the divinity system. This is solved in a lot of games by offering variables . This includes things like Randomly Generated spawns, Randomly Generated loot, and other Randomizations. Another is solved by including multiple ways to complete in the game (such as CIV games where you have multiple win conditions, kind of idea). And others include things such as guaranteed different play-throughs every time you play, such as randomizing the maps, objectives, and even monsters you fight. But all of these things boil down to basically 'different each time' sort of deal. And in AoC this can be answered by the variety of different classes and combinations. However, in order to do this that means you MUST create a new character for every single playthrough. To my understanding, this means that the average person would need up to 64 possible character slots available per account if they wish to preserve each character as they do another 'combination'. Which sounds from a playable perspective, certainly something fun and entertaining and desirable for a goal.
3: because games simply have a stopping point. Now MMO's that get regular updates generally don't have as much of a problem with this, and it would be as expected to continue playing as each new 'update' and 'expansion' arises. But even then, it comes down to 'does the expansion actually drive curiosity enough to come back to the game and play that?'
Idea
I have played multiple games, and have also seen what I personally like best about the games I've played. One game in particular is the game/MMO that I play most, and is always my go-to when I get into gaming(DDO). However, it has many flaws in it (namely, bugs and balancing issues). But they incorporated a lot of good ideas that I would love to see come to this game.
**1** is that you always have something to accomplish, at least something that would keep people going far longer then it would take to just wait for the 'next expansion'. This is done in a lot of games by simply adding Achievements; and don't get me wrong, I think achievements definitely carry a game's interesting capabilities for a LONG time by providing goals for more dedicated gamers. But I would like to see 'achievements' provide some veterans bonuses to make them more interesting, and more sought after. That is to say, they gain a small edge, by having played the game more than others. But at the same time; its not something that someone with a much higher skill (gaming skills) cannot overcome. And to that point; I would like to see something like 'stat advancements' available for achievements.
---- Such as: You complete a very big portion of the game, near-max out most of your capabilities in the game, and complete some arbitrary requirement / Quest. in particular, lets say you start a main class as a 'Fighter' and then achieve the max level, maxed your crafting skills (with what is possible to achieve in each crafting skill not including the 1 mastery above the rest) to the best, and then are rewarded with this by lets say, a 'account-wide bonus to all your characters: +1 Constitution, +1 Strength, +1 Dexterity' sort of thing. Now maybe these numbers can be tweaked to be more of a balance, as I do not know the balancing numbers; but you have the idea. Another idea could be something like, instead of directly increasing stats, you have something like a 'bonus' that adds a small percentage. Maybe '+5% movement speed, +2% of all damage, -1% of all damage taken'. Now obviously this should not stack infinitely. But perhaps maybe 1 for each class, or perhaps maybe you can achieve it multiple times per class (like, say, up to 3 times?), or perhaps you can only select one of the achieved at a time to provide that bonus. Or maybe even up to '5' of them? There are different ways to balance this.
**2** is that, to solve the multiple playthrough abilities, while still maintaining a desirable smaller selection of character pools, would be to allow a sort of 'restart' kind of system. Obviously, no-one wants to just simply 'restart' out of the blue. But when you provide incentives for it, its certainly not out of the question anymore. So something that I would like to see is something similar found in the D&D Universe, where they have a 're-incarnation system' sort of deal. I believe that providing a sort of in-game character restart, without actually deleting the character AND by providing incentives (lets say, ways to grow stronger) will by-in-large increase the games survivability and long-term gameplay in my opinion. This would work for the end-game bossing group of people, as you may change your classes instead of restarting completely, to find something that may work better for your role in your group. But this would also work for the people that enjoy the journey there more than the simple 'end-game grind' as you provide this sort of restart incentive.
---Such as: You achieve max-level in your class, or something close to it, and then lets say you complete a 'Quest' that only a max-class character could complete. And as a reward, you receive some blueprints to 'catalyze your life' kind of system. And lets say this could be set up in your own 'player-owned housing', and only works on max-level characters. And this could require components that could only be made by master-craftsmanship (thus requiring you to trade parts around, as you can only achieve creating 1 of the master-craft specializations per character (or per-life sort of thing)). And in this canalization, it restarts your level back to, lets say, level 5? But as incentive, you receive some boost that only a 're-incarnated' or 'catalyzed' character could receive. Perhaps this could be something like, if you 're-incarnate' as a Bard, you receive a 5% price discount for all transactions with NPC's on that character. Or perhaps you receive a 'bardic lifestyle' that slowly heals you even while in combat. Just these little boosts that aren't game-breaking but are certainly a goal to aim for (and even to explore/find out). And these would of course be achievable for trying different 're-incarnations' sort of thing. Perhaps even, this could be a use of things like a combination of crafted items that combine into: A machine that makes use of life-control and a 'magical' giant egg from Animal Husbandry, which houses a new life which you work toward growing. And at the end, you actually 'transfer' your life force into the egg, and end up being re-born as the new character (but containing benefits). And as such, perhaps each time you 're-incarnate' you receive a permanent 'Experience Boost' to your character. Lets say, each time adds another +10% EXP, up to +50% after 5+ re-births? And this would affect both crafting and combat-level experiences. But each time you use this process, you sacrifice the required equipment, and reduce your level by 90% (or even 100%?), essentially starting over in terms of combat [AND in crafting, as it would reduce ALL levels, but also require certain achieved levels to perform]. But what you would gain from doing so, is perhaps a boost to your character, as well as the added bonus exp (so that as you do it more and more, it becomes easier to do to a certain degree). Obviously, however, the equipment, housing, and every 'object' owned by the character would remain with the character, as only the characters levels are reset, with some added bonuses.
**3** is that, by providing achievements and a replay-ability that contributes to your 'accounts' over-all effectiveness, you both reward players with experiencing different aspects of the game, but also reward the player by achieving things that are not the easiest to be done, and would require to some degree a great amount of commitment to actually accomplish. I realize that this may make it a power-creep in terms of Veterans to Newbies, but I also believe that this would not hurt the game in any way, but hugely benefit the player-base. So by providing incentives to play you can guarantee the player-base will not dwindle from simply having 'achieved everything there is'. This should not hinder the people who have not put in this kind of work, however, as even a newbie well-performing group should be able to achieve relevantly the same as a veteran's group of poor-performing. I also do realize that with open-world PVP a thing, this may slightly unbalance 1 on 1 PVP situations, but lets be honest: A veteran certainly deserves an advantage as he's put the hard work in on the first time to get to where he is at now.
All of these are Ideas, and simply that- Ideas. Gathered from experience, and put through a AoC thinking process. There would certainly need to have some balancing involved, but also it would be good to see that after this amount of work, it pays off. As opposed to just
I achieved the max end-game on my Rogue-Wizard, and now there is nothing left. I can make a Guardian-Cleric next, but the game wont be as interesting; and I have to delete my other Rogue-Wizard in order to create and start over with a Guardian-Cleric.
Would love to hear other opinions on these sort of ideas. Something that would work in AoC? Or not?
TLDR: reincarnations / new generations with boosts / boosting long-term achievements
Backstory/reasoning
I have had bad experiences with games (MMORPG's mostly) in the past for several reasons.
1: because the games are very short lived, there is little to do, and once you do everything you originally set out to accomplish, everything is just 'meh' after that, and maybe just loyalty groundwork to continue going.
2: because the games may have only an end-game, which is not what everyone wants to do. Many people like myself enjoy the journey there, living the story line as you progress up the divinity system. This is solved in a lot of games by offering variables . This includes things like Randomly Generated spawns, Randomly Generated loot, and other Randomizations. Another is solved by including multiple ways to complete in the game (such as CIV games where you have multiple win conditions, kind of idea). And others include things such as guaranteed different play-throughs every time you play, such as randomizing the maps, objectives, and even monsters you fight. But all of these things boil down to basically 'different each time' sort of deal. And in AoC this can be answered by the variety of different classes and combinations. However, in order to do this that means you MUST create a new character for every single playthrough. To my understanding, this means that the average person would need up to 64 possible character slots available per account if they wish to preserve each character as they do another 'combination'. Which sounds from a playable perspective, certainly something fun and entertaining and desirable for a goal.
3: because games simply have a stopping point. Now MMO's that get regular updates generally don't have as much of a problem with this, and it would be as expected to continue playing as each new 'update' and 'expansion' arises. But even then, it comes down to 'does the expansion actually drive curiosity enough to come back to the game and play that?'
Idea
I have played multiple games, and have also seen what I personally like best about the games I've played. One game in particular is the game/MMO that I play most, and is always my go-to when I get into gaming(DDO). However, it has many flaws in it (namely, bugs and balancing issues). But they incorporated a lot of good ideas that I would love to see come to this game.
**1** is that you always have something to accomplish, at least something that would keep people going far longer then it would take to just wait for the 'next expansion'. This is done in a lot of games by simply adding Achievements; and don't get me wrong, I think achievements definitely carry a game's interesting capabilities for a LONG time by providing goals for more dedicated gamers. But I would like to see 'achievements' provide some veterans bonuses to make them more interesting, and more sought after. That is to say, they gain a small edge, by having played the game more than others. But at the same time; its not something that someone with a much higher skill (gaming skills) cannot overcome. And to that point; I would like to see something like 'stat advancements' available for achievements.
---- Such as: You complete a very big portion of the game, near-max out most of your capabilities in the game, and complete some arbitrary requirement / Quest. in particular, lets say you start a main class as a 'Fighter' and then achieve the max level, maxed your crafting skills (with what is possible to achieve in each crafting skill not including the 1 mastery above the rest) to the best, and then are rewarded with this by lets say, a 'account-wide bonus to all your characters: +1 Constitution, +1 Strength, +1 Dexterity' sort of thing. Now maybe these numbers can be tweaked to be more of a balance, as I do not know the balancing numbers; but you have the idea. Another idea could be something like, instead of directly increasing stats, you have something like a 'bonus' that adds a small percentage. Maybe '+5% movement speed, +2% of all damage, -1% of all damage taken'. Now obviously this should not stack infinitely. But perhaps maybe 1 for each class, or perhaps maybe you can achieve it multiple times per class (like, say, up to 3 times?), or perhaps you can only select one of the achieved at a time to provide that bonus. Or maybe even up to '5' of them? There are different ways to balance this.
**2** is that, to solve the multiple playthrough abilities, while still maintaining a desirable smaller selection of character pools, would be to allow a sort of 'restart' kind of system. Obviously, no-one wants to just simply 'restart' out of the blue. But when you provide incentives for it, its certainly not out of the question anymore. So something that I would like to see is something similar found in the D&D Universe, where they have a 're-incarnation system' sort of deal. I believe that providing a sort of in-game character restart, without actually deleting the character AND by providing incentives (lets say, ways to grow stronger) will by-in-large increase the games survivability and long-term gameplay in my opinion. This would work for the end-game bossing group of people, as you may change your classes instead of restarting completely, to find something that may work better for your role in your group. But this would also work for the people that enjoy the journey there more than the simple 'end-game grind' as you provide this sort of restart incentive.
---Such as: You achieve max-level in your class, or something close to it, and then lets say you complete a 'Quest' that only a max-class character could complete. And as a reward, you receive some blueprints to 'catalyze your life' kind of system. And lets say this could be set up in your own 'player-owned housing', and only works on max-level characters. And this could require components that could only be made by master-craftsmanship (thus requiring you to trade parts around, as you can only achieve creating 1 of the master-craft specializations per character (or per-life sort of thing)). And in this canalization, it restarts your level back to, lets say, level 5? But as incentive, you receive some boost that only a 're-incarnated' or 'catalyzed' character could receive. Perhaps this could be something like, if you 're-incarnate' as a Bard, you receive a 5% price discount for all transactions with NPC's on that character. Or perhaps you receive a 'bardic lifestyle' that slowly heals you even while in combat. Just these little boosts that aren't game-breaking but are certainly a goal to aim for (and even to explore/find out). And these would of course be achievable for trying different 're-incarnations' sort of thing. Perhaps even, this could be a use of things like a combination of crafted items that combine into: A machine that makes use of life-control and a 'magical' giant egg from Animal Husbandry, which houses a new life which you work toward growing. And at the end, you actually 'transfer' your life force into the egg, and end up being re-born as the new character (but containing benefits). And as such, perhaps each time you 're-incarnate' you receive a permanent 'Experience Boost' to your character. Lets say, each time adds another +10% EXP, up to +50% after 5+ re-births? And this would affect both crafting and combat-level experiences. But each time you use this process, you sacrifice the required equipment, and reduce your level by 90% (or even 100%?), essentially starting over in terms of combat [AND in crafting, as it would reduce ALL levels, but also require certain achieved levels to perform]. But what you would gain from doing so, is perhaps a boost to your character, as well as the added bonus exp (so that as you do it more and more, it becomes easier to do to a certain degree). Obviously, however, the equipment, housing, and every 'object' owned by the character would remain with the character, as only the characters levels are reset, with some added bonuses.
**3** is that, by providing achievements and a replay-ability that contributes to your 'accounts' over-all effectiveness, you both reward players with experiencing different aspects of the game, but also reward the player by achieving things that are not the easiest to be done, and would require to some degree a great amount of commitment to actually accomplish. I realize that this may make it a power-creep in terms of Veterans to Newbies, but I also believe that this would not hurt the game in any way, but hugely benefit the player-base. So by providing incentives to play you can guarantee the player-base will not dwindle from simply having 'achieved everything there is'. This should not hinder the people who have not put in this kind of work, however, as even a newbie well-performing group should be able to achieve relevantly the same as a veteran's group of poor-performing. I also do realize that with open-world PVP a thing, this may slightly unbalance 1 on 1 PVP situations, but lets be honest: A veteran certainly deserves an advantage as he's put the hard work in on the first time to get to where he is at now.
All of these are Ideas, and simply that- Ideas. Gathered from experience, and put through a AoC thinking process. There would certainly need to have some balancing involved, but also it would be good to see that after this amount of work, it pays off. As opposed to just
I achieved the max end-game on my Rogue-Wizard, and now there is nothing left. I can make a Guardian-Cleric next, but the game wont be as interesting; and I have to delete my other Rogue-Wizard in order to create and start over with a Guardian-Cleric.
Would love to hear other opinions on these sort of ideas. Something that would work in AoC? Or not?
0
Comments
My experience with rebirth systems comes from maplestory:
First on private servers: where we would rebirth into a different class after hitting max level, but you get to keep all the previous class skills on your keyboard.
This was really fun, but also burned out the game population really fast (there are nearly zero private servers with rebirth today, coz they all died - whereas other servers have lived on). It also destroyed all uniqueness between builds because everyone went bishop->mage x2 -> thief x2 -> bowmen x2 -> Warrior x3 to collect all the skills that would stack. But this is an extreme example
Second, on the global servers they added benefits to making alts:
And because maplestory is expecting its players to make 52 alts, they made 3 beginner quest lines to add variety to progression. This to me says that they know it's boring.
Altogether, providing external incentives for people to repeat content increases intrinsic boredom of the content <--- which is why dailies feel like chores.
To me, replayability is all in the question: why is it fun to swing around the city as spiderman for no particular reason? Everyone did it, swinging around with nowhere to go, just coz the swinging was fun.
(And I reckon the secret sauce is: cyclic activity with intelligent pacing)
my 2c
EDIT: your second point: unlockables are fun, but they need to make sense (why are they locked?). Also AoC has a major advantage over pure PvE MMOs - PvX has natural buffer systems "because humans" and maximizing interdependencies of the different game elements breeds a living economy, adds depth to the game which both contribute greatly to "replayability"
I would agree in some aspects to what you've brought up. But I also think that these are indeed extreme situations. What I am proposing is something more like; Achieve something of high magnitude (as we've all seen the guestimations I'm sure) and be rewarded something in terms of small payouts.
As a real-life example: Lets say you build a Prophet class in AoC first. You get your skill. But then when you 're-incarnate' you do not KEEP any of your previous skills. You do not ADD your stats to the next one. Instead, you simply get a static boost. And thus, achievable by everyone so it is balanced. But at the same time, it will make fights easier in the longer run, for sure. But by how much?
You cannot disagree that by saying, I give a 2% dmg boost and 1% less dmg taken boost, you make really ANY dent in the different of a fight of a boss. Lets say it takes you 586 hits to kill the boss, and you die in 18 hits. Now if you take less dmg, and deal more, you kill it in 576 hits, shaving off several seconds to your 20-minute fight? And now you can actually survive. or may not. the last hit that would have killed you previously. Likewise, this does not seem a very big power creep, so even if you DOUBLED your power completely by achieving ALL possible unlocks, (which would take a very substantial amount of time) you would even compare to the Maplestory powercreeps. You may cut your killing time in half, double your survivability, but maybe thats about it? You still cannot solo-kill 3 players at once any better then you could before without having a LOT of work put in? (unless you are super skilled?) Its not like its ADDing unfair skills.
Edit:
To your edit, having the small advantages does not really change anything. At best it makes it a goal and maybe a 'requirement' to become the 'best' of the 'best'. Sure this means that long-term payouts are expected and that a newbie would never be able to compete at the same skill-level. Or more accurately; a Skilled Veteran with an Alternate character would easily SQUASH anyone in their way after they've perfected their gameplay, and have just as much if not MORE of an advantage then the system I'm talking about.
P.S. This is not 'true re-playability' that would become a Chore so much, because the idea would be that you would expect to change things up. Be a different class. A different combination of classes. Try different things. Etc. All while giving the incentive for doing so.
Reincarnation is what alts are for. Chances are, we will have 8 character slots, per server (almost standard MMORPG meta). So, you will be able to play each base class, on a single server. With the ability to respect your secondary arch type (class), there is no need to "create" 64 toons (ie, make 8 base toons, respec them 8 times each.).
If you are advocating perma death, to justify reincarnation. You will not be met with friendly replies, as AoC is a MMORPG and not a FPS. Stick to Role Playing.
As to longevity. That's where AoC is different from other MMORPGs. With Nodes and Player Agency (mayor's, kings, guilds, wars, caravans, etc), these expound the late game. No longer are we chasing a carrot (while waiting for expansions), we get to build and burn a world.
As to those little boosts, you mentioned. I believe those are called; augments.
yeah, % increases are better than flat increases in that sense. And I agree, maplestory is a loose cannon.
I think rebirthing was done in Mabinogi, and a lot of new game+ single player games.
I guess my point is more that these mechanics don't increase the fun of the game, but instead increase longevity by introducing powercreep. (at the expense of fun, I'd argue)
I agree that if you boost older players by a lot, new players would be more discouraged from joining. But because this game is not all about 'I'm better, 1v1 me newb' then I disagree that this would in any way adversely affect the player base. If anything, it would encourage newbies to partner up with veterans for both learning and getting better themselves. Its also providing a goal by showing off ones boosts to newbies, and now newbies want that as well.
But in the end, the power should not increase by magnitudes, so even a veteran can be bested by its counter-play class and styles all the same.
I can almost guarantee that once a player hears they wont be able to pass certain players up in power that they won't even bother with the game. Many players aim to be competitive and outplay others in the game.
But then, you do not have the ability to have any MORE. And if you tried them all, what if u liked 2 of them? You make 2 alts of that? But then you go over your limit? How hard will it be to respec then? How often? How freely? That may be a big determining factor? And when I advocate for bonuses, I'm assuming base class only?
This is the opposite. I am advocating for long-life characters. Your character will survive the test of time if you can repeat on the same character, as opposed to starting over to try something different? Permadeath is more in line with starting over characters.
I agree. But at the same time, i do not agree that everyone likes that. Many will simply avoid the 'bigger city' that is targeted because they dont want that to happen to them and dont have time to be involved? Likewise, my suggestion may not be liked by all, but certainly it will not destroy the experience of those that simply would rather start a new character, or perhaps have two characters at the end-game at the same time?
I'd be interested in seeing how those play out. But at the same time, this is another way idea to provide something of similar aspect? But achievable differently?
But if they are told that they cannot pass up another player, they are being lied to. ANYONE can be more skillful. Lets say you make a Rogue that is very adept at building full damage and nearly instantly killing the other player. When someone tells you that's the ONLY way to play because you cannot beat it, I bet you also lose all hope and quit the game?
AoC, as far as I know, will have counters. And a counter will mean more than a little power increase. Its not like i'm advocating for extreme power creep. But a reason to continue on can only be helpful for the game's player base in general?
When you are told that the other player only has a 2% advantage. Do you quit the game? When you are told that you can only do half the damage as the guy who's played the game the most in the world, do you quit the game? No, you probably say 'well how can I get up to that point, or build my own skillset to show I am better skilled then a little damage advantage'
Sure, but I am being realistic. The PvP community that will be playing this is going to be full of min/maxxers both at the start and later when people hear about the game post-release. The only players that would want this system are players starting from day 1 so they can benefit the most from it and gain an advantage. Its not a matter of players quitting the game because they'd have the same benefits from day 1, the matter is about new players hearing that even if they have the same gear and skill level as a player who started a year before them, the veteran player will have stat boosts just from being around longer that the new player won't be able to attain, or if they can it won't be until they put in a lot of game time playing catch up. And realistically speaking that will make a player not want to bother with the game, especially if they are a competitive player. Now my question for you is why would this game need that mechanic? Would it really provide a beneficial and engaging gameplay mechanic? Or is it to just make long time players feel good about themselves and possibly have an advantage over other newer players? Hell I plan on being in this game day 1 and I don't see any need to give myself even a slight buff over someone who plays later. Stats in game should have the same attainability regardless of if the player is new or old, that way it really is skill that decides the outcome.
I agree that it should be about 'skill'. But I disagree that a new player will be swayed against playing because they dont have the same 'advantages'. Take a look at other games that have high skill caps. Do u see people deterred because they aren't great yet? or do they invest time to get better? its not like its an overwhelming advantage. and it does greatly provide incentive to play more.
The only advantage a veteran player should have over a newer players is time played, they don't need an added stat boost for already having an advantage over new players by knowing more about the game. I still want to hear how this mechanic would benefit the game other than purposely giving veteran players a stat advantage over new players. What is it accomplishing? How does it make the game better at all?
Plus the fact that they'll likely be wanting to sell additional character slots, so this would effectively cause a lost source of income, since people won't need those slots any more.
I understand the desire to keep things fresh at end-game, and I too enjoy the rush of levelling a character, but I personally feel that this would be more damaging than useful.
Agreed but I can confirm that not only did they say no pay to win, but also no pay to convenience. So no purchasable bank slots, bag slots, or character slots and what not.
Well, my heart's completely broken
That's pretty much all I do in MMOs! Gotta catch 'em all, right?!
I got to the point in ESO where I'd used all the purchasable slots, and had to start killing off old characters to make way for new ones! Hahahaha
can always make another account
My wallet will be broken, then. I can get a heart transplant. I can't fix a broken wallet!
lmao, in any case I am sure with 64 class types you will be able to have each primary class and switch up the secondary's if you want to switch things up
I believe the idea behind how it benefits the game, is it provides a way for people who focus more on combat and completion, to be rewarded for doing so. Clearly there will be a stronger max-level character vs your level-35 character because you started over. But when you reach back to the maximum level; you are slightly more powerful then you would have been previously. That is not to say that suddenly you cannot take damage from anyone ever again, or that you do 10x their damage. Obviously there could be ideas and inputs to balance these 'benefits' more. And clearly there would be a CAP (8? 16? 32? 64?) on how many you could do; so its not like someone at the top could never be caught up to. And not each class 'benefits' would need to be the same thing. So maybe you gain benefits to survivability from having been a tank; or perhaps you receive benefits to your max mana and mana regeneration from having been a mage. Things like these, that are in small amounts, should not even make the difference between losing to a higher-skilled opponent, and losing to a higher-skilled opponent with your higher stats. Its not like you wont see people build min-maxxed PVP toons specifically to fight in a 1v1 and win quickly. You would still lose almost as badly as you would have otherwise. But by having these bonuses you feel good by doing them, and can benefit slightly by being more competitive in pvp or pve content.
Ideally, the boosts should not be something so game-breaking as to be too powerful that you could never be killed by a character without these bonuses; but from videos of gameplay, that would not be an issue at all. Clearly skill and tactics would work much more.
Still not hearing how it makes the game better... All You are doing is explaining the mechanic, I get it. Play for a long time, gain stat bonuses for it. I want to know how it would benefit gameplay at all to have a mechanic that provides an edge NO MATTER HOW SMALL over newer players. I personally find the idea of constantly re-leveling my character just for miniscule upgrades to be exhausting. It sounds like a time-sink more than an opportunity to have an enjoyable experience. If I want another playthrough, making another unique characters sounds much more appealing, and I get to keep my original character so I can go back to it. If you really want a "prestige" system as I would call it (referring to call of duty hurts my soul), do it simply as a flex mechanic. instead of an outright advantage incentive though stat boost, just reward cosmetic skins or titles. That's incentive enough. And it doesn't give the player an unnecessary edge.
As stated before; character slots may not be purchasable anyway so that doesn't seem to matter.
However even if, as you stated, characters received 2% increase each time; if you have 20-30 rebirths, im assuming that would potentially be the cap. Its not like this can go on forever; so in 3 years from now with your 500 rebirths, you have +1000% effectiveness.
Clearly you can slowly catch up to that, even if it just takes you a while, when the other player who has those already just stagnates in growth at that point. Thus this provides a replayability AND includes longer investment possibilities.
That is not to say that one who invests solely on one character can solo everything like a godlike character. But perhaps he receives more benefit from previous growths, and is able to perform faster in PVE content and Raid Bosses, and thus receive better chances at 'gear' and higher Challenges of fights; as said by the Devs etc. (Steve-- in Asmongold's interview). Clearly having a higher chance at end-game gear drops because you can kill the mobs faster is an incentive reward, and not game-breaking in anyway, for those that take the time to go through such a process. But someone who just makes more characters can likely just repeat the fights more often and thus ALSO have the added benefits of more drops simply because they do it more often instead of spending time at a lower level once again.
So as you pointed out "new content will need to be aimed at your new monster level" is actually not true. Because as stated by Steve, the fight will re-balance itself based on your performance in previous encounters in a dungeon. If you perform worse, it will be easier and you get less drops. If you perform very well (monster level well), you fight a more challenging mob, and are rewarded with higher drops.
The game design itself already takes care of such things.
As seen by the other response, I posted some more on the advantages.
But more to your point, you are somewhat right. It is an exhausting experience potentially; and thus not all players would go that extra mile obviously. But then to my own point, that's the whole point. those that DO go the extra mile are rewarded more then those that just want to get in, see if they got it, and quit.
But you do raise another point; that if character advancements for this extra work is not the right way to go, it could be a cosmetic only reward type of thing.
Also more on balance; as this game seems to be hugely impacted by social groups. Lets say you make a group of 8 people. They all perfect their PVP class and group fighting.
Now those fight another group of long-time veterans, who just happen to be a group of IRL friends that only have 5 people.
CLEARLY the 8 will win against the 5. No matter how much game-knowledge those veterans may have, they simply cannot beat these 8 others.
But lets say that the 5 long-time veterans have some advantages, then it makes it a more even fight; even if its still one-sided for the group of 8 to win.
Otherwise social norm says: Just get more people. Combat effectiveness doesnt matter. Only numbers matter.
Edit:
And to that point- new players wont have their social circles or groupies. So the group of 8 will always be the veterans and will always win anyway; therefore combat advantages for 'rebirth' system is pretty meaningless in open-world pvp.
Ok, I didn't recall seeing mention of a rebirths cap in your original post. What number do you imagine the cap to be set at?
Even just taking 2% of the original 100% power, 30 rebirths is going to give you more than a 50% increase, and that's huge. If it's working off a 2% increase to your current rebirthed power, then you're talking over a 75% increase from that original character.
As Dolyem noted, a new player isn't going to want to "slowly catch up" to that, knowing that they're at such a massive disadvantage. They just won't bother.
Well its true that someone can be deterred to catching up to something of a 75% advantage, you are right. But I bet if you got a buddy to help you, you could 2v1 easily all the same? Having a 200% effectiveness vs a 175%.
As far as the cap goes, I was thinking it would really depend on what is deemed as balancing by game designers and the content that is available for other ways to boost.
That being said, something like maybe 1 boost per base class. such as like 8. This could potentially be a way to 'explore the branches'. But if it is not so easy to augment the second class to a different one, maybe having more possibilities seems even better.
On the other hand, if the boosts are too small, you could accumulate more in the sense that, say, like 3 per base class?
But the whole 2% of power is pretty arbitrary. I'm just saying that as an example for specifically fight (a class that is main'd in dealing damage and avoiding being damaged). That being said, perhaps this is even more restrictive. Say, 2% to ONLY weapon attack/skill damage. And then, the mage counter-part has a similar +2% to ONLY spell damage.
The idea would be that each 'rebirth' might provide a unique boost that is only available for 'rebirthing' as that class. So perhaps a 'tank' rebirth receives +3% less damage taken, and can be done 3 times, for a total of +9% less damage taken? Whereas the fighter with +2 % power stacks 3 times for a max of +6%.
So, you kind of get the idea, ya? Its not infinite stacking; but at the same time it needs to be somewhat of a difference to make it appealing to players who like to invest more in their character.
Edit:
Another idea is perhaps there are set 'augments' you can choose. And you are only allowed to choose 1 at a time per 3 'rebirths' up to 5? And these boons you would achieve and activate then must be of much greater magnitude and more meaningfully different. Such as Bard gets a +15% faster skill cooldown? Fighter gets a +5% movement speed and 10% attack speed boost? Ranger gets a +5% damage boost and a +10% movement speed? etc.. Maybe rogue gets a +10% dodge/evasion boost and +5% back-stab damage boost.
Your post was mentioning advantages for the players receiving the buffs, the games community as a whole really wouldn't benefit. And being rewarded for gritting your teeth and playing through repetitive content that eats up time is not good game content, thats the sort of thing companies add to games when they are losing players due to lack of content and they can't think of anything fun to do so they just throw that in until they can think of something.
And I don't mean to seem like I am trying to argue everything you say but as far as numbers in a fight go, there are wayyy more variables than that. 8 players could massacre a group of 5 veteran players, but it could go the other way around depending on how good or bad each group is at PvP, their groups communication, the gear they wear, one groups classes could completely counter the other, group synchronization where the classes can benefit better or suffer due to some classes not playing off anothers strengths. Trust me, as someone who has played many games where I actively ran in smaller groups to fight greater numbers, your numbers don't count for crap if you cant outplay the other team. And as far as equally matched teams fighting each other, that "slight" stat advantage will be cheating the new players of a possible victory even though they were so closely matched with a veteran group, which isn't ok. The veterans should win with skill, not because they had slightly better stats. And since veterans will have social circles on top of game experience, WHY do they need any more advantage? So I say just stick with cosmetic rewards if any rewards at all.
Certainly, I can see where you are coming from. But I, as an avid gamer, also believe that hard work should be rewarded. Weather that be through practice to get the skills you need for action-combat, or growing stronger to compete with those that start out the game with massive skills on their alts. I'm sure if any toon had achieved some 'growth' it could also be displayed in the title of their name or something to show that they have a slight advantage and have done it all before. So open world pvp'ers are like 'hey, we cant handle him solo. lets get 16 people and beat him'
as an example; this would immensely include the social aspects of PVP and open world to some degree.
to that extent, however; please note that the way this game is designed; if you play one character and then restart, you will likely have a vastly different experience, and mostly unique, compared to the first. For many reasons; including social groups possible, combats, monsters available, and based on locations. etc. etc. So to say that 'starting over is just a grind' is not really accurate in my opinion.
Leveling up is reward, finding better gear is reward, unlocking news skills is reward. But so long as the rewards arent unattainable to others. Spent a lot of time playing? Awesome, you probably have cosmetics from pre order packs and more knowledge about the game. You still do not need any stat increases just because you have been around longer. Want better stats? Get better gear. the entire argument I am making is stat boosts for more time played are unnecessary and should not be a game mechanic. The only reward you could argue for a "prestige" system would be purely cosmetic crap that doesn't affect gameplay.
I suppose I do see where you are coming from. But my argument is more of to advocate for replayability and to that matter, encourage people to spend time in the levels 1-49, and not only the max level.
To me, variety matters. Replayability is a vast majority of variety to a certain extent. Having replayability be part of the 'augmented powerups' system would encourage people to not just make a toon, rush to cap, and THEN do raids. Then when that gets boring, you are just stuck waiting for a new update in most games. It is yet to be seen how that plays out with AoC; but if the game is 90% centered around end-game and raids; this will ultimately become boring for a lot of players. Mostly those that seek 'challenges' and 'adventure' and 'putting in the work for the reward'.
That is not to say that a cosmetic-only reward could not be used instead. I'm just advocating for actual power growth because that makes it seemingly a goal for everyone, not just those that want all the collectables.
I'm also advocating for achievable balanced upgrades. Not saying that suddenly if all the older players do this, they become unstoppable. But surely you would require to do this if you plan to min-max.
But again, even then, the bonuses should not be staggeringly large.
It could even be as simple as, there is a unique augment slot. This slot is tied to a 'rebirth' system. When you 'rebirth' as one class, you unlock the use of the augment. But you must start at a lower level as compensation to unlock it.
With that, suddenly now EVERYONE can achieve it in miniscule time. there is no more pvp advantages. Would that make it more appropriate for you?