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Gear/Equipment Should Not be Level Locked

RayhotepRayhotep Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
Hello, I am a long time MMORPG gamer and I believe equipment/gear level locks ruin the first part of a MMORPG game.

There are a few reasons I feel this ways. First off, lower level gear does not seem as important, until a character reaches level cap. As a player levels, they will continually switch to new and better gear appropriate for their level. This devalues midgame gear and crafting. There is no reason that I would invest my hard earned currency or time in new gear every level. Especially, if the gear I buy is just going to get replaced in 2 hours of gaming when I level up. However, if I put on some gear that has good specs I may wear it for many levels and will be proud of it.

Second, having gear level locked encourages a player to rush to the level cap and not enjoy the ride. A player who is continually reminded that they can not utilize certain items, until level cap, will push as hard as they can to get to the end game. Again, rushing levels prevents players from enjoying the entirety of the game.

Third, level locked gear takes away from the immersion. When a player finds a piece of gear they cannot use, it reminds them they are in a game. Only in a game is someone unable to pick up and put on a pair of boots (supposing they don't have size 15 feet....)

Some may argue that it is unfair for experienced players. New players have not invested the countless hours into the game, and so should not receive good gear a low level. Experienced players may feel that a new player should not be able to have the best gear immediately. However, the only way for a new player to get good gear is for an experienced player to give it to them or for them somehow to come up with enough currency. If an experienced payer gives them the gear then this means they would be working closely with each other (a benefit for the game and all parties involved.) If the new player was able to purchase the gear then they would have earned it. The economy will be player driven which means the better gear will cost a lot...perhaps much more than a new player could shell out.

I believe the game would be much more enjoyable if there were not gear/equipment level locks.
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Comments

  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited October 2020
    Rayhoyep wrote: »
    There are a few reasons I feel this ways. First off, lower level gear does not seem as important, until a character reaches level cap. As a player levels, they will continually switch to new and better gear appropriate for their level. This devalues midgame gear and crafting. There is no reason that I would invest my hard earned currency or time in new gear every level.

    Low to mid tier gear will remain relevant as top tier gear will require low and mid tier gear to make it; and, low level materials will be required for repairs. Repairs will not be an inconsequential cost.


    https://ashes101.com/coreimages/low_level_items.jpg
    https://ashes101.com/artisan
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Crafting#Upgrading_items
  • WoodOxWoodOx Member, Explorer, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I heard the levelling process will be longer than a couple of days like some games (cough wow), closer to a month or two depending on playstyle and hours committed. Players will also create alt characters which will fill that gap too. I enjoyed how ESO did gear as a level range- once you hit a threshold it was exciting to get your new gear and upgrade it to epic quality.

    Never getting upgrades after your first set would be kind of bland to be honest, finding new gear and crafting new upgrades always excited me.

    Plus the whole needing low level crafting items to create the high tier stuff as mentioned above.
  • RayhotepRayhotep Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I think the lower tier gear playing a part into the crafting of higher tier gear will greatly alleviate the problem. I’d missed that part prior to now. Thank you!
  • Rayhoyep wrote: »
    Only in a game is someone unable to pick up and put on a pair of boots (supposing they don't have size 15 feet....)

    Yeah, this. If I've got the skill to get an armour piece that's designed for higher levels, or I've amassed the cash needed to buy it, why should I not be allowed to use it?
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
  • i really hope that its going to be somewhat similar to lineage 2, where top end gear was very hard to reach long after you hit the lvl cap. So mid game gear was still relevant and it didnt feel like you just wear throwable shit all the time, and you keep switching eq everytime you lvl up.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Im a long time mmorpg player and I dont care if iron sword isnt relevant at lv 50.

    I also dont care for lv1 players wearing high end gear. This "encourages players to rush to the level cap and not enjoy the ride."

    Seriously what the hell are you talking about?
    Gearing up from tier to tier is one of the pillar features of PROGRESSION.
  • Im a long time mmorpg player and I dont care if iron sword isnt relevant at lv 50.

    I also dont care for lv1 players wearing high end gear. This "encourages players to rush to the level cap and not enjoy the ride."

    Seriously what the hell are you talking about?
    Gearing up from tier to tier is one of the pillar features of PROGRESSION.

    So, if I've managed to get progress to getting my hands on a Level 30 piece of armour at Level 26, why should I not be able to use it, when I've progressed that far to be able to get my hands on it?
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited October 2020
    daveywavey wrote: »
    Im a long time mmorpg player and I dont care if iron sword isnt relevant at lv 50.

    I also dont care for lv1 players wearing high end gear. This "encourages players to rush to the level cap and not enjoy the ride."

    Seriously what the hell are you talking about?
    Gearing up from tier to tier is one of the pillar features of PROGRESSION.

    So, if I've managed to get progress to getting my hands on a Level 30 piece of armour at Level 26, why should I not be able to use it, when I've progressed that far to be able to get my hands on it?

    Put it in your bank, wear it later. Enough with the instant gratification
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member
    edited October 2020
    daveywavey wrote: »
    Im a long time mmorpg player and I dont care if iron sword isnt relevant at lv 50.

    I also dont care for lv1 players wearing high end gear. This "encourages players to rush to the level cap and not enjoy the ride."

    Seriously what the hell are you talking about?
    Gearing up from tier to tier is one of the pillar features of PROGRESSION.

    So, if I've managed to get progress to getting my hands on a Level 30 piece of armour at Level 26, why should I not be able to use it, when I've progressed that far to be able to get my hands on it?

    Put it in your bank, wear it later. Enough with the instant gratification

    Saving enough cash to buy a decent armour set, or working your arse off to get it by yourself isn't instant gratification. It's the reward for effort.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
  • daveywavey wrote: »
    daveywavey wrote: »
    Im a long time mmorpg player and I dont care if iron sword isnt relevant at lv 50.

    I also dont care for lv1 players wearing high end gear. This "encourages players to rush to the level cap and not enjoy the ride."

    Seriously what the hell are you talking about?
    Gearing up from tier to tier is one of the pillar features of PROGRESSION.

    So, if I've managed to get progress to getting my hands on a Level 30 piece of armour at Level 26, why should I not be able to use it, when I've progressed that far to be able to get my hands on it?

    Put it in your bank, wear it later. Enough with the instant gratification

    Saving enough cash to buy a decent armour set, or working your arse off to get it by yourself isn't instant gratification. It's the reward for effort.

    The lvl tiers are there so that, people joining some friend guilds, big streamers etc couldn't just get through to lvl cap by getting or borrowing top end gear and then one shooting everything
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited October 2020
    I wont entertain this ridiculous idea of low lv chars running around in the full splendor of high end gear switched over from mains, just because you dont understand the basics of mmorpgs as opposed to singleplayer games for 10 pages, like you did with the other pointless topic.
    It wont be implemented.

    Gear tiers are fundamentals of mmorpgs:
    Loot
    Crafts
    Farming mats/parts
    Quests
    Daring zones

    It's tied to it all. Deal with it.
    What's next? All abilities are available at lv1, but you just dont have enough points to slot them right away?

    Im out. Let's see how many more responses this thread will get.
  • SokkenSokken Member
    edited October 2020
    Hard disagree. But what I do think is that gearing shouldn't be an astronomical difference between player power. I think levels should mean something. A level 50 with high end gear shouldn't be a god compared to a level 50 with low end level-appropriate gear. The difference should definetly be substantial, but not to the point that a low end geared player can't even hurt the high end one.
    vH8mBZL.gif
  • GeronimoGeronimo Member
    edited October 2020
    @FuryBladeborne I really like this concept:
    Low to mid tier gear will remain relevant as top tier gear will require low and mid tier gear to make it;

    I saw your references from ashes101 but I could not find anything official from Steven or intrepid on that.

    The data from the official wiki that you linked only talks about enchanting which I think is different than upgrading. Do you know anywhere that Steven or intrepid mentions that?

    EDIT:

    There is this about deconstructing (to get the raw materials from a completed item to create another item). But that also seems different than upgrading because the weapon name and enchantments, etc. would probably not survive deconstruction while you would expect them to with upgrading.

    I think this is a good question for the next Q&A.
  • @Sokken the most extreme discrepancy of gear will be 40% - 50% as per Steven here. That sounds OK to me.
  • Rayhoyep wrote: »
    Third, level locked gear takes away from the immersion. When a player finds a piece of gear they cannot use, it reminds them they are in a game. Only in a game is someone unable to pick up and put on a pair of boots (supposing they don't have size 15 feet....)
    Plenty of other people are addressing the technical/balancing aspects of characters running around in high stat gear and whatnot so I'll just give my opinion on the immersion thing you mentioned:

    The thing is gear in general in MMORPG's is rarely not "immersion breaking". How the hell does a pair of boots give you more intelligence or strength? I'm not a huge lore guy but afaik most games don't bother to create a logical lore explanation for item stats, it's just a given part of the genre. If you did want to make a lore explanation for such stat enhancements you could create a system of magic/energy that is tied to items and this energy is what enhances your player when wearing the item. More powerful items simply have more energy tied to it, and your player requires a certain experience level to be able to harnass said energy. By that lore logic you could make items non-equippable when under-leveled because the energy would overwhelm and kill your player. Or it could be equippable, just without stat benefits, as you're not yet skilled enough to harness the energy from the item. Or lastly you could have a certain cap of how much total energy your character can harness so maybe you can equip those level 30 boots at level 26, but that means in your other item slots you will need to use like a level 22 item to not surpass your total energy cap for your level.

    Ultimately though it just seems over complicated to invest time and resources in creating a more immersion-friendly gear system, when the majority of the MMORPG community seems perfectly fine with the current standards. It's just not an aspect of immersion that most people care about (and if you don't believe me go look at the dev discussion on immersion breaking moments and count up how many posts talk about not being able to equip gear at low level, I'll give you a hint, not many).
  • just because you dont understand the basics of mmorpgs as opposed to singleplayer games for 10 pages, like you did with the other pointless topic.

    Lol, the classic 'sinking ship' response: "you just don't understand anything". Good one.....
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
  • RayhotepRayhotep Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited October 2020
    I wont entertain this ridiculous idea of low lv chars running around in the full splendor of high end gear switched over from mains, just because you dont understand the basics of mmorpgs as opposed to singleplayer games for 10 pages, like you did with the other pointless topic.
    It wont be implemented.

    Gear tiers are fundamentals of mmorpgs:
    Loot
    Crafts
    Farming mats/parts
    Quests
    Daring zones

    It's tied to it all. Deal with it.
    What's next? All abilities are available at lv1, but you just dont have enough points to slot them right away?

    Im out. Let's see how many more responses this thread will get.

    Bro, you came on a little strong there but I will address some of your concerns.

    First off, one of the key points of Ashes of Creations is it challenges the "themepark" (WOW) MMORPG. So when you say it is a fundamental part of MMORPGs I would agree. But that can change as the game will be changing many aspects of the MMORPG. So lets entertain alternate ways of doing things and not be closed off to it. The Idea of no tiers is not a new one. Red Dead Redemption is an excellent example of an MMORPG that does not lock out gear.

    Second, Once a player reaches max level, and creates a alt/mini they all ready will be sending their alts currency , crafting mats , ect... By saying the maxed character will send their gear you are also implying that all gear will not be soulbound. From the sounds of the game there will be very few and hard to get legendary gear items. I personally would not want my weak alts to have the good gear. Perhaps a player will have multiple excellent sets of gear but it is less likely and if they do, they still earned it.

    Third, a lot of people have voiced, in this thread, how they hope gear alone will not grant players an overpowering advantage. An increase, yes, and maybe enough to give an edge but not enough to dominate all others. So If a lower level player gets gear it won't over power them to early on.

    As far as single player games, lvl lock is the a pitta me of a single player game. The game gives you the items when it wants you to have it rather than you have the ability to choose and create your own story.

    As I stated in my thread, the main issues In most MMORPGs is that low level gear means nothing. Which as a result devalues all level aside from max. However, if the game factors into it crafting the next tier gear, I think the problem is greatly reduced.
  • Absolutely not. All it would do is lead to low levels characters in high level gear. Sure a small buffer for gear would be alright, a level 45 wearing level 50 gear isn’t awful, but a level 1 being allowed to wear level 50 gear? No way would that be healthy.

    Then you’d definitely make anything under max level worthless when no one would ever have to use it.
  • RayhotepRayhotep Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Caeryl wrote: »

    Or it would drive the price of the good gear up, making it unattainable for low level characters due to supply and demand.

  • Rayhoyep wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »

    Or it would drive the price of the good gear up, making it unattainable for low level characters due to supply and demand.

    Great and this helps the problem of funneled characters how? Max level crafters making max level gear for their new level 1 characters? Players who buy gold with real money and pay those outrageous prices for maxed gear? Why open up those cans of worms when you can just not do that?

    Play the game as it’s meant to be played. Propose reasonable compromises like that level buffer I mentioned when pushing a few levels ahead is doable, but it’s absolutely unreasonable to expect a major and needed stopgap to be completely removed.
  • RayhotepRayhotep Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Caeryl wrote: »
    Rayhoyep wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »

    Or it would drive the price of the good gear up, making it unattainable for low level characters due to supply and demand.

    Great and this helps the problem of funneled characters how? Max level crafters making max level gear for their new level 1 characters? Players who buy gold with real money and pay those outrageous prices for maxed gear? Why open up those cans of worms when you can just not do that?

    Play the game as it’s meant to be played. Propose reasonable compromises like that level buffer I mentioned when pushing a few levels ahead is doable, but it’s absolutely unreasonable to expect a major and needed stopgap to be completely removed.

    Max leveled character are going to make the best gear possible for their alts one way or another. Why is it a problem if people have good gear at low level? It’s an artificial barrier emplaced.

    People who do RMT are going to do RMT if they can get away with it. There will always be things to buy with gold in a game and developed accounts to buy. It’s sad but they are going to try. What they buy is irrelevant.

    I do like the level buffer and it does sound like it will take longer to level so people will need to care about their gear more than the typical game. I also hope that low gear will play apart in high gear. In reality I completely understand that gear will most likely continue to have level lock. But I really hope they make a way for it to seem relavent. I just created a new character on a MMORPG and I have no clue what gear he’s had for the first 80+ levels. He cycles through it so fast. The low level gear is pointless.
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Here's the kicker...I levelled 7 Toons from 1 to 61 in one Month on Black Desert because once I unlocked the Boss Gear on my first 61 I could simply transfer it to my level 1 toons and one-shot mobs. I'm ambivalent about the process but it definitely shortened the levelling process. There was no challenge left after the initial challenge. There were few soul bound or character bound items more family bound items.

    I do not mind which way the dice falls in Ashes of Creation but so far I've understood that a main character will be more useful than a ton of Alt Characters.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • GodgearGodgear Member, Intrepid Pack
    Instead of levels, I prefer having stat requirements
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Godgear wrote: »
    Instead of levels, I prefer having stat requirements

    You mean like in Dark Souls where you can only equip certain items if you have enough points allocated to a specific stat? That's great but only works if you can manually allocate the stats however you like, which as far as I know, Ashes won't have.

    The issue with unlocking gear to all levels is it makes the game incredibly hard to balance for everyone below the max levels. @Neurath eluded to this with his example of BDO being able to 1-shot everything just because he had max level gear. It makes the levelling completely redundant because without any form of challenge you don't learn anything, and when you can kill a mob instantly just by right-clicking on them once, you have no need to learn what any of your abilities do or how the game works. At that point you might as well get rid of the levelling entirely and start the game at max level.
    volunteer_moderator.gif
  • I'm sorry Rayhoyep but if your post was made out of paper id be wiping my arse with it
    I tell you what i know about Dwarf's.
    Very little
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Godgear wrote: »
    Instead of levels, I prefer having stat requirements

    You mean like in Dark Souls where you can only equip certain items if you have enough points allocated to a specific stat? That's great but only works if you can manually allocate the stats however you like, which as far as I know, Ashes won't have.

    The issue with unlocking gear to all levels is it makes the game incredibly hard to balance for everyone below the max levels. @Neurath eluded to this with his example of BDO being able to 1-shot everything just because he had max level gear. It makes the levelling completely redundant because without any form of challenge you don't learn anything, and when you can kill a mob instantly just by right-clicking on them once, you have no need to learn what any of your abilities do or how the game works. At that point you might as well get rid of the levelling entirely and start the game at max level.

    I think it could still work with auto-allocated points.
    It would make sense if a level 10 fighter can wear chainmail, but a rogue has to level up more before his stats allow him to do the same thing. I guess this would spawn niche builds that could be exploited though.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • Im a long time mmorpg player and I dont care if iron sword isnt relevant at lv 50.

    I also dont care for lv1 players wearing high end gear. This "encourages players to rush to the level cap and not enjoy the ride."

    Seriously what the hell are you talking about?
    Gearing up from tier to tier is one of the pillar features of PROGRESSION.

    I agree with this; and I also agree that gearing for progression should NOT be 90%+ at 'end game'. Not everyone wants to be end-game level; because that seriously stumps the growth enjoyment getting there.

    Honestly; just give every player level-cap characters to start if you are going to make a game based on end-game only. Of course that also means that your entire game is based on level cap, and the 5 minutes to get from lvl 1 to cap. Boring...
  • Mojottv wrote: »
    i really hope that its going to be somewhat similar to lineage 2, where top end gear was very hard to reach long after you hit the lvl cap. So mid game gear was still relevant and it didnt feel like you just wear throwable shit all the time, and you keep switching eq everytime you lvl up.

    IMO, worst game-design ever. Why make anything for levels 2-49 then? Whats the point? You will wear 3 sets of equipment your entire character life. The very start to get you from 1 to cap. The easiest at-cap equipment. And finally the best-in-slot end-cap equipment. Wow. so much variety. so much enjoyment. So many grind with nothing new. boring.
  • BricktopBricktop Member
    edited October 2020
    frostborn4 wrote: »
    Mojottv wrote: »
    i really hope that its going to be somewhat similar to lineage 2, where top end gear was very hard to reach long after you hit the lvl cap. So mid game gear was still relevant and it didnt feel like you just wear throwable shit all the time, and you keep switching eq everytime you lvl up.

    IMO, worst game-design ever. Why make anything for levels 2-49 then? Whats the point? You will wear 3 sets of equipment your entire character life. The very start to get you from 1 to cap. The easiest at-cap equipment. And finally the best-in-slot end-cap equipment. Wow. so much variety. so much enjoyment. So many grind with nothing new. boring.

    Well in all fairness it worked for Lineage 2 because of the ungodly level grind. You could wear the same set of gear for months before you got enough levels to move into the next grade of armor. It wouldn't really work in Ashes.
  • Godgear wrote: »
    Instead of levels, I prefer having stat requirements

    I actually like the idea of having stat-requirements. Lets say, if you have a 'reasonable' stat expectation based on class/role, you can generalize a specific amount of a stat needed to equip a gear.

    Now, combine this with a 'within-reason' level advance, and get something like this:

    Level 1 Fighter. High STR. Able to wear Heavy armors that are within 15 lvls over the character's level. Receives a small penalty to the armor's stats for wearing under-level: ( (Stat bonus + average modifier for level of gear) / (level armor - character level + 1) ) -- which would not apply as soon as the level appropriate is reached.
    Level 1 Wizard. High INT. too weak to wear Heavy armors that are 15 levels or less over the character's level. But can wear Heavy armors that are 2 levels over their character's level. However, their benefit of heavy-played protection will not be as warranted as a cloth robe that offers little to no physical protections, but grants mobility, speed, cast speed, and cooldown speeds of their much-wanted spells. Which of course is reduced by wearing if under-leveld.
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