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So I heard this game is potentially coming out in 2023.

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Comments

  • Osire wrote: »
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    So I can play that Harry Potter game and not have to worry about Ashes coming out in the middle of it.

    what harry potter game yo? im tryna play a harry potter game

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JygnOzvXrAI
    zZJyoEK.gif

    U.S. East
  • Beck AltarrBeck Altarr Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    This is a bit of a critique based on my observations which are based on nearly 20 years of experience working with Game Dev's as a creator. I was doing Online Radio back in the early 2000's and at the time it was one of the best forms of content creation as most other forms didn't exist back then. I got to learn a lot from great people about how development works and be involved in a lot of early testing.

    Based on their own You Tube Channel AoC started development in 2016 with their first video being published in Dec 2016 as an early environment demo which was pretty good so some time had already been spent in development. At least 5 years has been put into AoC so far and the average for a good MMORPG is 5-7 years. Star Citizen is going to move that average up a year or two if it ever releases...

    I also agree most of the current hype was created by a content creator and is trying to be maintained by other creators. However, I.S. is doing nothing to stoke the hype train and keep it moving down the tracks. I'd say they've actually cooled it off quite a bit with their NDA Alpha 1 previews and lack of any real content to show in the past couple months. Current creators are all rehashing the same content and nothing original is really being produced. It's just reactions or opinions many have already done. At best we can argue over who did it or said it first, but in the end it doesn't matter. There is a lot of Creator Action trying to maintain interest in AoC and I am worried that new people are going to see through it all and notice there isn't really much new coming out about the game.

    Perhaps they are trying to manage expectations. I personally don't think they are anywhere near an Alpha 1 No NDA release state yet. While they have said Covid hasn't really hurt them and they have met or exceeded their internal milestone goals, we don't know what those internal goals are. I think the March Alpha 1 will be delayed until next fall before it happens and I think that would be a benefit to development based on their concerns for delaying it in the 4th place (if you watch their vids they have promoted a fall Alpha multiple times. Just about once a year since 2017 starting with a fall 2018 Alpha)

    We know that their art department has been able to work more or less unimpeded, but they have faced set backs in engineering issues, such as the Apocalypse Battle Royal where they had to totally rebuild some systems which was a huge delay and more recently their update of the Unreal Engine clearly created another big mess of broken systems they have had to deal with. This means they have to take what they have learned and build in additional buffers to reduce the lost time in the future when their custom systems and Unreal Engine break apart. It will happen again, but how they go about with preventative measures will go a long way but those measures take time to create and implement. These are good things. Breaking stuff early and finding fixes for them means a better, stronger, foundation going forward. Especially at this place in development. Imagine the game launches and more people than expected do something and... well I remember WoW when it launched. The first month was almost unplayable with all the issues. We don't want that with AoC. I hope they can find all the major kinks early and I don't mind if that takes a little more time.

    We have yet to see most of the systems in any kind of working state. We are getting a lot of combat vids but it's basically the same combat in different environments. This months was a Caravan Siege in a Castle in open PVP, where as the last Caravan siege was team based in a forest. There has been nothing actually new. That is VERY telling of where they actually are in development. We are getting a lot of art, the last 3 months has been mostly Dunir Dwarves with a little bit of Eastern Humans. We have seen nothing but concept art for some Orc Buildings, but nothing much of the actual Orc's themselves. Anyone remember there are Tulnar? This tells me where they are in total game completion is not where I feel they are implying they are at.

    This is OK. I think they just need to tell us. I'd like to see some kind of document that actually lists in general terms where they are at in regards to their goals. IE: Dunir Dwarven Art/Buildings/Weapons 50% done. Quest lines for Dunir: 30% Tulnar: Art/Buildings/Weapons 10%. Etc.

    Give us a ball park in some general terms.

    I get they don't want to give too much away, it also doesn't help sell or hype the game. Yes, I know Steven is personally funding the game... except that's also not entirely true and a different conversation for another time. Let's just say the Cash shop isn't priced like any other F2P MMO out there if they didn't need our cash and they wouldn't have tried having a cash shop for Apoc, which was supposed to be a testing ground only, if they are not projecting a need for our money to fund the game. AoC is likely to cost 60-100 million. Steven has committed to personally up to 40 million. WE are going to fund this game to completion.

    We have not seen anything economy related yet, such as stock exchange, player shops, or even crafting. Some limited gathering is about it. This is a major system that will govern many of the others. Other than buying houses I don't think we've seen anything else economy related.

    I am not saying any of this to be negative. Just pointing out what I see are facts. This is going to be a big game and it's going to take a lot of time, but with the recent hype, it's also going to burn out some potential players. I am sure I am not alone in thinking this game was about 1 year out when I first came on board back in June. I've since watched every video on their channel, many twice, and it's clear their communication involves a lot of omission about their actual state of the game. I'd say it's still currently more of a run around and do very basic things than it is to where they would like us to believe the game is. This comes down to a lack of good communication.

    They don't even have an Official Creators program which they talked about months ago and with the Lazy Peon bringing in so many new creators that should have been a top priority but there isn't so much as a peep about it. There are the O.G. Creators who have some special status and access from their previous program but there is nothing for the new creators like myself. I'm more of a Let's play and react guy, I want to share the experience with my community and there is nothing for me to do that hasn't already been done to death with the limited content available. I'm also working on the only access anywhere audio format Phoenix Radio which is targeted for the Role Play Community but also a great resource for news and updates while showcasing other community creations, I can't get any real conversations going with anyone at I.S. to help me create anything to support AoC and I think other Role Players feel the same since none of them are reaching out to be involved with the radio either. Indications of the true state of the game. Which is O.K. if they were a little more open/honest with their communication.

    They talk a lot about how good their communication is with the community. They shouldn't, it's been disappointing, when I look at other games I've been apart of, even earlier in development. I think they spend a lot of time with certain creators and older community members and that may be skewing their perception, but unless you are constantly logged into their discord to catch a few moments here or there there really isn't any community communication. They used to do multiple streams per month, that ended years ago. They used to start their streams with a short interview with a content creator, a brilliant idea... not any more.

    I look at Wingman's Hanger from the Old Star Citizen days. Descent Studios and Defiance did weekly updates online or the access I had to Dev's, especially lore masters to come up with fun teases and story lines for my Radio Projects. I look back at the great relationships creators had with NetDevil before NCSoft killed them off. I can still chat with Eric Peterson easily. My point is, what we are told isn't exactly the truth. Not saying anyone is lying. It's more by omission. I get they don't want to hurt their product or give anything away, but what they are doing it letting the creator community create content that may not be accurate and could end up being misleading about the end product. I want to support AoC as much as I can, but I am also a realist. The hype train is coasting to a stop and they have many creators who are trying to stoke the fire but without any help from I.S. it's going to burn out and while some people will stay regardless many will move on and not all will return and there are already a growing number of commentators taking shots at I.S. and sadly negativity grows faster than positivity and postivitity is harder to maintain.

    As an example: I am trying to create story lines for the Radio based on Sanctus before the portals re-open. I don't need to know every detail of Sanctus. I do need to know some basics to make sure I am pointing in the right directions. Left to do it all on my own I could end up crafting an entirely different world that risks not only hurting my project that is costing me money, but I could very well hurt the game too, especially if the community thinks what I am producing is legit lore. It's not good for either brand.

    I fully expect to see another delay in No NDA Alpha 1 before March next year. Which isn't a bad thing. I predicted the current delay. I think they are a good year from a serious Alpha 1 Testing. I know my experiences are anecdotal. My point is, I want them to take the time to develop the systems to be a robust as possible. I think they also need to be a little more open about the actual state of the game because what they are showing us doesn't look like there is much progression in the past few months. Not all of the systems are going to play nice together, we get that, they need to balance the systems, they need to balance what they share with the community and they need to balance the 8 classes and 64 variations. It's a big to do list. They are doing things few other games have even attempted. I am confident they can and will do it. Given enough time...
    phoenix.png
    Alpha/Beta Tester of Many Games - Station Manger of PhoenixRadio.Online an AoC & Gamer themed online Radio. Tune In Here
    Love a good story and lore.
    Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
  • @Beck Altarr
    I got part-way through. I really tried...!
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
  • Cold 0ne FTBCold 0ne FTB Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    .

    As an example: I am trying to create story lines for the Radio based on Sanctus before the portals re-open. I don't need to know every detail of Sanctus. I do need to know some basics to make sure I am pointing in the right directions. Left to do it all on my own I could end up crafting an entirely different world that risks not only hurting my project that is costing me money, but I could very well hurt the game too, especially if the community thinks what I am producing is legit lore. It's not good for either brand.

    I wouldn't hold your breath on getting enough lore for a backstory prelaunch. Steven is holding most of it close to the chest.
    ZxbhjES.gif

    That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.
  • This is a bit of a critique based on my observations which are based on nearly 20 years of experience working with Game Dev's as a creator. I was doing Online Radio back in the early 2000's and at the time it was one of the best forms of content creation as most other forms didn't exist back then. I got to learn a lot from great people about how development works and be involved in a lot of early testing.

    Based on their own You Tube Channel AoC started development in 2016 with their first video being published in Dec 2016 as an early environment demo which was pretty good so some time had already been spent in development. At least 5 years has been put into AoC so far and the average for a good MMORPG is 5-7 years. Star Citizen is going to move that average up a year or two if it ever releases...

    I also agree most of the current hype was created by a content creator and is trying to be maintained by other creators. However, I.S. is doing nothing to stoke the hype train and keep it moving down the tracks. I'd say they've actually cooled it off quite a bit with their NDA Alpha 1 previews and lack of any real content to show in the past couple months. Current creators are all rehashing the same content and nothing original is really being produced. It's just reactions or opinions many have already done. At best we can argue over who did it or said it first, but in the end it doesn't matter. There is a lot of Creator Action trying to maintain interest in AoC and I am worried that new people are going to see through it all and notice there isn't really much new coming out about the game.

    Perhaps they are trying to manage expectations. I personally don't think they are anywhere near an Alpha 1 No NDA release state yet. While they have said Covid hasn't really hurt them and they have met or exceeded their internal milestone goals, we don't know what those internal goals are. I think the March Alpha 1 will be delayed until next fall before it happens and I think that would be a benefit to development based on their concerns for delaying it in the 4th place (if you watch their vids they have promoted a fall Alpha multiple times. Just about once a year since 2017 starting with a fall 2018 Alpha)

    We know that their art department has been able to work more or less unimpeded, but they have faced set backs in engineering issues, such as the Apocalypse Battle Royal where they had to totally rebuild some systems which was a huge delay and more recently their update of the Unreal Engine clearly created another big mess of broken systems they have had to deal with. This means they have to take what they have learned and build in additional buffers to reduce the lost time in the future when their custom systems and Unreal Engine break apart. It will happen again, but how they go about with preventative measures will go a long way but those measures take time to create and implement. These are good things. Breaking stuff early and finding fixes for them means a better, stronger, foundation going forward. Especially at this place in development. Imagine the game launches and more people than expected do something and... well I remember WoW when it launched. The first month was almost unplayable with all the issues. We don't want that with AoC. I hope they can find all the major kinks early and I don't mind if that takes a little more time.

    We have yet to see most of the systems in any kind of working state. We are getting a lot of combat vids but it's basically the same combat in different environments. This months was a Caravan Siege in a Castle in open PVP, where as the last Caravan siege was team based in a forest. There has been nothing actually new. That is VERY telling of where they actually are in development. We are getting a lot of art, the last 3 months has been mostly Dunir Dwarves with a little bit of Eastern Humans. We have seen nothing but concept art for some Orc Buildings, but nothing much of the actual Orc's themselves. Anyone remember there are Tulnar? This tells me where they are in total game completion is not where I feel they are implying they are at.

    This is OK. I think they just need to tell us. I'd like to see some kind of document that actually lists in general terms where they are at in regards to their goals. IE: Dunir Dwarven Art/Buildings/Weapons 50% done. Quest lines for Dunir: 30% Tulnar: Art/Buildings/Weapons 10%. Etc.

    Give us a ball park in some general terms.

    I get they don't want to give too much away, it also doesn't help sell or hype the game. Yes, I know Steven is personally funding the game... except that's also not entirely true and a different conversation for another time. Let's just say the Cash shop isn't priced like any other F2P MMO out there if they didn't need our cash and they wouldn't have tried having a cash shop for Apoc, which was supposed to be a testing ground only, if they are not projecting a need for our money to fund the game. AoC is likely to cost 60-100 million. Steven has committed to personally up to 40 million. WE are going to fund this game to completion.

    We have not seen anything economy related yet, such as stock exchange, player shops, or even crafting. Some limited gathering is about it. This is a major system that will govern many of the others. Other than buying houses I don't think we've seen anything else economy related.

    I am not saying any of this to be negative. Just pointing out what I see are facts. This is going to be a big game and it's going to take a lot of time, but with the recent hype, it's also going to burn out some potential players. I am sure I am not alone in thinking this game was about 1 year out when I first came on board back in June. I've since watched every video on their channel, many twice, and it's clear their communication involves a lot of omission about their actual state of the game. I'd say it's still currently more of a run around and do very basic things than it is to where they would like us to believe the game is. This comes down to a lack of good communication.

    They don't even have an Official Creators program which they talked about months ago and with the Lazy Peon bringing in so many new creators that should have been a top priority but there isn't so much as a peep about it. There are the O.G. Creators who have some special status and access from their previous program but there is nothing for the new creators like myself. I'm more of a Let's play and react guy, I want to share the experience with my community and there is nothing for me to do that hasn't already been done to death with the limited content available. I'm also working on the only access anywhere audio format Phoenix Radio which is targeted for the Role Play Community but also a great resource for news and updates while showcasing other community creations, I can't get any real conversations going with anyone at I.S. to help me create anything to support AoC and I think other Role Players feel the same since none of them are reaching out to be involved with the radio either. Indications of the true state of the game. Which is O.K. if they were a little more open/honest with their communication.

    They talk a lot about how good their communication is with the community. They shouldn't, it's been disappointing, when I look at other games I've been apart of, even earlier in development. I think they spend a lot of time with certain creators and older community members and that may be skewing their perception, but unless you are constantly logged into their discord to catch a few moments here or there there really isn't any community communication. They used to do multiple streams per month, that ended years ago. They used to start their streams with a short interview with a content creator, a brilliant idea... not any more.

    I look at Wingman's Hanger from the Old Star Citizen days. Descent Studios and Defiance did weekly updates online or the access I had to Dev's, especially lore masters to come up with fun teases and story lines for my Radio Projects. I look back at the great relationships creators had with NetDevil before NCSoft killed them off. I can still chat with Eric Peterson easily. My point is, what we are told isn't exactly the truth. Not saying anyone is lying. It's more by omission. I get they don't want to hurt their product or give anything away, but what they are doing it letting the creator community create content that may not be accurate and could end up being misleading about the end product. I want to support AoC as much as I can, but I am also a realist. The hype train is coasting to a stop and they have many creators who are trying to stoke the fire but without any help from I.S. it's going to burn out and while some people will stay regardless many will move on and not all will return and there are already a growing number of commentators taking shots at I.S. and sadly negativity grows faster than positivity and postivitity is harder to maintain.

    As an example: I am trying to create story lines for the Radio based on Sanctus before the portals re-open. I don't need to know every detail of Sanctus. I do need to know some basics to make sure I am pointing in the right directions. Left to do it all on my own I could end up crafting an entirely different world that risks not only hurting my project that is costing me money, but I could very well hurt the game too, especially if the community thinks what I am producing is legit lore. It's not good for either brand.

    I fully expect to see another delay in No NDA Alpha 1 before March next year. Which isn't a bad thing. I predicted the current delay. I think they are a good year from a serious Alpha 1 Testing. I know my experiences are anecdotal. My point is, I want them to take the time to develop the systems to be a robust as possible. I think they also need to be a little more open about the actual state of the game because what they are showing us doesn't look like there is much progression in the past few months. Not all of the systems are going to play nice together, we get that, they need to balance the systems, they need to balance what they share with the community and they need to balance the 8 classes and 64 variations. It's a big to do list. They are doing things few other games have even attempted. I am confident they can and will do it. Given enough time...

    wow that was a really really good reply, and really really good info and insight thank you
  • Beck AltarrBeck Altarr Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    .

    As an example: I am trying to create story lines for the Radio based on Sanctus before the portals re-open. I don't need to know every detail of Sanctus. I do need to know some basics to make sure I am pointing in the right directions. Left to do it all on my own I could end up crafting an entirely different world that risks not only hurting my project that is costing me money, but I could very well hurt the game too, especially if the community thinks what I am producing is legit lore. It's not good for either brand.

    I wouldn't hold your breath on getting enough lore for a backstory prelaunch. Steven is holding most of it close to the chest.

    Which is its own risk/reward. Like I said. If you leave too much up to the community then we will fill in the gaps or run with what we think might work best and that means the community will be setting the standards and not Steven because he is not taking those reigns. This is why some kind of a Creators Communication system is so necessary with the appropriate NDA's.

    If I craft the world of Sanctus for my Radio Dramas and I sell it convincingly, then those who come across my work will take it as gospel, even if I don't intend it. My goal is to keep things vague enough that it shouldn't happen, but I also have to have some good plot lines, characters and stories to tell. Even if I knew the actual lore of Sanctus, it doesn't mean my stories would be based on that lore because I look to the real world and how much does anyone know about history? The Bible itself has spun off into 3 primary religions with many sub-variants in only a few thousand years. Imagine what 10 thousand years could result in. We don't know which 1 of the three is closest to the truth or even if the Bible is true on it's face. I look at Sanctus as something similar. History says we came from a portal, that there was a land of Magic, much like King Arthur and Excalibur. How much is myth, legend and fantasy? What I'd like to know is mostly going to be inconsequential to the over all lore of Sanctus. Like the name of a Dwarven Town near an old portal. Is Sanctus divided into Kingdomes/Continents? Do the Races intermix well and often or are they segregated? I can fill in a lot of the rest because the stories are from individual perspectives, not an omniscient one. I could have 1 group of people believe the true history and have 7 other groups who believe variations and you the listener would never know which one was which. Just like the characters wouldn't know either, yet those 8 groups would all believe they represent the true history.

    What I do know is I have at least 2 years to craft something that I hope will at the very least be competitive with the depth of the actual lore and as believable. I'll be setting standards for many things and creating many sects/cults/beliefs within Sanctus based on legends with characters people will love and I hope love to hate. I'd like to know enough to be in line with the lore, to augment it rather than risk being totally off base and waste 2 years only to have to ret-con the entire project.

    I'm looking at it from all these "Everything you need to know" type videos that other creators are putting out. Some of which I know are not accurate. It's creating a false impression of the game. People will expect X based on what they seen from creators who have little to go on and then I.S. puts out Y which is not what people expect. How many people are going to blame the creators? How many creators will blame I.S.? It's just not a good situation and it's because of a lack of communication. Content Creators are also Influencers who will have their own fans. Though the big streamers will forget about AoC unless they are being compensated because it's not in their best interest to spend time on a game 2 years from release. They will stay with what is shiny now and keeps their attention and thereby their viewers. For all the free Keys Asmongold will get...

    I know they have good intentions. I believe it was Smedley who said in their Pax round table: "Once you launch a game it's not yours anymore." What he was trying to say is that no matter how much a developer wants to keep things to himself to not ruin the experience, we, the community, will take ownership of the game and make it ours in our own ways and in our communities. Our stories will become intertwined with that of the game. There will be rise and falls of trolls and toxic people, there will be rise and falls of great community people and positive supporters. It only takes one thing to trigger those rises and falls and it's a fine line to walk. So far it's the community managing itself and it's doing O.K. So far the majority of Toxic people I've found are the older community members who believe themselves established with I.S. but see some new creators as threats to their seats, or they are tired of rehashing the same topics every time a new wave of people find out about the game and join the community, their frustration is obvious.

    My point is, they mishandled the hype train so far. Either through inexperience or by intention. If it's intentional then I think it supports the theory that the game isn't near enough to the Alpha State they want to lift the NDA by some degree and that's obviously why we have the current delay and why I think it wont be the last at current rate of development (covid being a legitimate part of that). If it's through inexperience then it's going to be up to the Community to take the reigns and run with it, which might not go over to well in the long run because mob rule never ends well.

    I could also be wrong. I can only go off my personal experience and by the information I have available to me through what they have released and not released. In the end, I want them to create a sold product for launch and I am o.k with waiting. I encourage everyone else to be equally as patient.
    phoenix.png
    Alpha/Beta Tester of Many Games - Station Manger of PhoenixRadio.Online an AoC & Gamer themed online Radio. Tune In Here
    Love a good story and lore.
    Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack

    If I craft the world of Sanctus for my Radio Dramas and I sell it convincingly, then those who come across my work will take it as gospel
    No they won't.
  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited November 2020
    @Beck Altarr
    I don't want to dig through your post for quotes, so I will just list a couple of reactions.

    My personal opinion is that driving the hype train while so far out is not a good idea. It's just not going to stay high energy for the number of years that production is still happening. The official content creators program is locked. I don't know their reasons for this, but not pushing the hype train years before release seems like a good one.

    I don't feel like I.S. is concealing their lack of progress to the community. Pre-Alpha (where we have been until recently) means systems haven't even reached formal testing. As in, systems are not even made yet to be tested. Alpha means the first phase of testing.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#:~:text=Alpha software is not thoroughly,it is released to customers.&text=At this time, the software,the software as a product.

    I know that everyone would like things to be faster, but with large projects such as this, it is more likely to be slower than faster. Planning fallacies are common and difficult to overcome. Unless you use a statistical analysis of similar projects, any estimate given is more likely to be closer to a best case scenario than a realistic one. Additionally, any timeframe given that is not met will only increase the discontent of fans. Cyberpunk 2077 announced another one month delay recently and developers have been receiving death threats over the delay. The issue of announcing schedules is much worse than it probably seems.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planning_fallacy#:~:text=The planning fallacy is a,and underestimate the time needed.
    https://www.dailysabah.com/life/cyberpunk-2077-in-between-never-ending-delays-crunch-and-death-threats/news
    Because I want to shorten this post, I will just say that asking for progress percentages is effectively equal to asking for completion dates.

    I really hope they are able to stick to the current dates that they have finally given us :neutral:
  • I've got to be honest, @Beck Altarr - it just sounds to me like you're asking "Can you please tell me loads of info so that I can make some money from your IP?"
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
  • Cold 0ne FTBCold 0ne FTB Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @Beck Altarr
    I don't want to dig through your post for quotes, so I will just list a couple of reactions.

    My personal opinion is that driving the hype train while so far out is not a good idea. It's just not going to stay high energy for the number of years that production is still happening. The official content creators program is locked. I don't know their reasons for this, but not pushing the hype train years before release seems like a good one.

    I don't feel like I.S. is concealing their lack of progress to the community. Pre-Alpha (where we have been until recently) means systems haven't even reached formal testing. As in, systems are not even made yet to be tested. Alpha means the first phase of testing.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#:~:text=Alpha software is not thoroughly,it is released to customers.&text=At this time, the software,the software as a product.

    I know that everyone would like things to be faster, but with large projects such as this, it is more likely to be slower than faster. Planning fallacies are common and difficult to overcome. Unless you use a statistical analysis of similar projects, any estimate given is more likely to be closer to a best case scenario than a realistic one. Additionally, any timeframe given that is not met will only increase the discontent of fans. Cyberpunk 2077 announced another one month delay recently and developers have been receiving death threats over the delay. The issue of announcing schedules is much worse than it probably seems.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planning_fallacy#:~:text=The planning fallacy is a,and underestimate the time needed.
    https://www.dailysabah.com/life/cyberpunk-2077-in-between-never-ending-delays-crunch-and-death-threats/news
    Because I want to shorten this post, I will just say that asking for progress percentages is effectively equal to asking for completion dates.

    I really hope they are able to stick to the current dates that they have finally given us :neutral:

    Couldn't have said it better myself. Let them finish the game. If they won't give you lore they won't give you lore. Content creation for this game won't really start until Alpha 1 and even then it won't be a lot. They will likely take down servers multiple times to fix and update.

    They will likely update their content creator program prior to that. So if you want in you will have to wait until then, assuming you meet their criteria.

    They also haven't likely finished the lore. They probably haven't developed it passed where it is now. They are still working on alot of internal systems.

    But you are not completed screwed. This second Life stream is a huge opportunity. You will see a set of characters from the world. You could base your character's on what you see and hear from that pathfinder game. You likely won't find out a lot but you will likely be given a few basic overarching cultural norms
    ZxbhjES.gif

    That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.
  • Beck AltarrBeck Altarr Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited November 2020
    Noaani wrote: »

    If I craft the world of Sanctus for my Radio Dramas and I sell it convincingly, then those who come across my work will take it as gospel
    No they won't.

    Through previous experience... I differ with your opinion. Defiance is a great example where people felt what we were putting out was far better than what Trion Worlds was putting out. Now, we did have excellent access to some of the Lore people and writers of the TV series so we could craft great stories in the universe with the events of the game as a back drop but told the stories of those events more convincingly than the game did.

    I have seen other creators do the same in other mediums across several games.

    I am not saying it will happen here, only that it is possible.

    With out anything to go on, we are all free to create the narratives for our characters back stories.
    @Beck Altarr

    My personal opinion is that driving the hype train while so far out is not a good idea. It's just not going to stay high energy for the number of years that production is still happening. The official content creators program is locked. I don't know their reasons for this, but not pushing the hype train years before release seems like a good one.

    I don't feel like I.S. is concealing their lack of progress to the community.

    I agree, if you read my comments, I stated that when I first found AoC the impression was it was a year out from release, not 2-3 years and from talking with many others I am not alone. Maybe it wasn't intentional but their always positive approach is misleading and it seems only when there are major issues that anything is addressed to the community, sadly too common among all developers. My comments are based on that impression. It's only been in the last month or two that I have determined they are not as close to Alpha 1 as they expected to be and at the end of August I predicted we would see a delay in Alpha 1 and I am saying now there is likely to be another delay before March as well.
    I know that everyone would like things to be faster, but with large projects such as this, it is more likely to be slower than faster. Planning fallacies are common and difficult to overcome. Unless you use a statistical analysis of similar projects, any estimate given is more likely to be closer to a best case scenario than a realistic one. Additionally, any timeframe given that is not met will only increase the discontent of fans. Cyberpunk 2077 announced another one month delay recently and developers have been receiving death threats over the delay. The issue of announcing schedules is much worse than it probably seems.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planning_fallacy#:~:text=The planning fallacy is a,and underestimate the time needed.
    https://www.dailysabah.com/life/cyberpunk-2077-in-between-never-ending-delays-crunch-and-death-threats/news
    Because I want to shorten this post, I will just say that asking for progress percentages is effectively equal to asking for completion dates.

    Again, if you have read my comments, I encourage patience, I warn there may be delays and that they are O.K., It is better to find the major issues now in development than closer to launch.

    The % idea isn't going to give anything away as far as a completion date. It's just saying where they are at currently in their development. We couldn't predict a completion model unless it was something they updated on a monthly or quarterly basis, which I am not suggesting. I am say for a current state of things now. Though I do accept many people will read into it. That's just the nature of communities.

    This is a very ambitious project and I have seen people doubt it can be done because of Steven's inexperience, but I look at the qualifications of the people he has hired. A good leader doesn't need to be the best at what they are leading so long as they are best at surrounding themselves with the most capable people to do so. It does appear that is the case with I.S.

    That doesn't mean that a project such as this can't and wont face delays. It just means you have some of the best people around to solve issues faster and set in place preventative measures as they learn what ticks off Unreal Engine.


    daveywavey wrote: »
    I've got to be honest, @Beck Altarr - it just sounds to me like you're asking "Can you please tell me loads of info so that I can make some money from your IP?"

    You are going to need to provide some context for your comment. I have not asked for loads of info. I have asked for clarification and the level of communication they claim to have with the community that I haven't seen. No where have I suggested making money from their IP either. I produce content and people follow or subscribe, as they do with any other creator. By your statement you should go rail against Jahlon or Lazy Peon as they have and are making the most money off the AoC IP from their social media channels. Please provide citation as to where I have stated I want to make money off AoC.

    What I want to do is tell great stories from the community perspective with the game lore as the threads that bind the book together. I want to do the lore justice while giving the community another outlet of creation via an online radio, the only medium people can experience virtually anywhere at any time. It wont be for everyone, but it will be for enough and although I am managing it, ultimately its the community that drive it, unlike other content creation which is exclusively the streamer or youtuber.

    I think you need to take the time to really get to understand me before you start making false accusations about me.

    @Cold 0ne FTB If you watched last years Second Life Stream the other lady IS their lore person. They can work on many things at once. I would be surprised if they didn't have a complete outline for the next several expansions already and complete histories of each of the raids and cities. They likely also have detailed outlines for many of the minor races and for many of the creatures. You always work on fleshing them out, but as someone who has been on a lore team, you are often keeping pace with the Art Dept and often it is the art Dept that is going to the Lore guys so they can better detail the art.

    You really can't make a great game with out some kind of lore to drive it.
    phoenix.png
    Alpha/Beta Tester of Many Games - Station Manger of PhoenixRadio.Online an AoC & Gamer themed online Radio. Tune In Here
    Love a good story and lore.
    Twitch Streamer : PRO Discord
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member
    edited November 2020
    I think you need to take the time to really get to understand me before you start making false accusations about me.

    It wasn't a false accusation.

    It was me telling you how your post sounded to me. But, now I'm starting to wonder..... the poster doth protest too much, methinks..... ;):p

    You really can't make a great game with out some kind of lore to drive it.

    This game does have lore. The basics of it can be found on the wiki. We'll be told the rest when they're ready for us to know.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited November 2020

    I agree, if you read my comments, I stated that when I first found AoC the impression was it was a year out from release..
    It is not the fault of IS if players do not understand that Pre-Alpha means systems are so undeveloped that they can't even hit the first round of testing yet. While I thought this game would launch by the end of 2022 for a long time, I don't blame IS for my lack of understanding some basic programming phases that I could have looked up and understood what they were saying.
    The % idea isn't going to give anything away as far as a completion date.
    10% complete = time taken up to this point (TTP) times 10 = approximate completion date (ACP)
    25% complete = TTP x 4 = ACP
    50% complete = TTP x 2 = ACP

    Asking the % complete is effectively equal to asking the approximate completion date.
  • CROW3CROW3 Member
    edited November 2020
    10% complete = time taken up to this point (TTP) times 10 = approximate completion date (ACP)
    25% complete = TTP x 4 = ACP
    50% complete = TTP x 2 = ACP

    Asking the % complete is effectively equal to asking the approximate completion date.

    You're assuming the amount of time to move across product completion is consistent, which I've never observed to be true in any product I've designed, developed, or deployed.

    It could take a year to get 50% complete, then another five years to get the rest complete. Product development timing looks more like the 'Jeremy Beremy' principle than a simple linear direction.

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited November 2020
    CROW3 wrote: »
    It could take a year to get 50% complete, then another five years to get the rest complete.
    Sure. However, if they give us an approximation of what is complete then people are going to use it and then argue over whether IS is meeting its goals, if it takes twice as long to do the next equal percentage was the original percentage correct, is the game ever going to release or are we being mislead with false estimates. The list will go on seemingly endlessly until it is released.

    IMO, if IS wants to release percentages, that's fine; but, they should only do it if they want to start identifying approximate timeframes for completion of the relevant stages.

  • IMO, if IS wants to release percentages, that's fine; but, they should only do it if they want to start identifying approximate timeframes for completion of the relevant stages.

    Yeah, I agree. Stakeholders, customers, leadership are all great at taking the hype train off the rails when it comes to 'data' like this - those %s can mean anything or nothing if they aren't caveated correctly. Really the golden rule to making a solid game remains true: it'll ship when it's done. ;)

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    daveywavey wrote: »
    @Beck Altarr
    I got part-way through. I really tried...!

    Same, but, you know, posts are content. :)
     
    Hhak63P.png
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I think it's a bad idea to beat the drums this early.

    It's really cool that LazyPeon brought a lot of attention to the project, but let that serve as an early blip so people know what's coming.
    I think the current approach to letting content creators have access right before NDA release is the correct move - nobody wants to get an info dump only to find out that they can't dig into it themselves. It makes a lot of sense if content goes out just as alpha 1 opens.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
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