Arena and Gear Equalization

rikardp98

I just want to say that this is an mmoRPG, a role playing game where the story lies in the characters and not the player behind the screen. And what is a part of that character? Gear, abilities, playstyle and build/specc/skillpoints.

I really like the idea of having arena being a part of the military node, but I'm also fine with instance Arena similar to wow. However, I personally feel like gear should matter.
If a new player enters a random arena and gets totally crushed by another player they will either do two things.
1. Stop doing arena and focus on other stuff like PvE content och large scale pvp.
2. They will start to do some research to find out how that character could do something like that. They will try and learn about there characters and class to find something special that will enable them to evolve. Then some day efter many hours of building a character grinding open world pvp, arena, large scale pvp they may be able to be that on character on the server that just totally smash other players. They will rise from the ashes and become a pure pvp phoenix
3. Btw, point 1 will also lead to point 2 after a while xD

A mmoRPG is all about having goals with your character and trying to get there by playing the game, which will give you, gear that makes you stronger but also knowledge about the game and your class that you can use to destroy people in arena for example.

If you do not like the role playing theme in mmorpgs then ashes may not be the game for you. Try and look in to fps or mobas like LOL.

And finally, if you want a example where players thought they wanted equal standing in arena but then they found out that it just didn't work, look at WoW. Blizzard thought that could turn WoW arena, a role playing game arena, into a esports where everyone start on equal footing, but it just didn't work.
Why didn't it work you might ask?
Well players play there characters in the open world for hours to get gear, skill and knowledge (as mentioned before), and then you enter an arena and all that is gone, all your work is gone, you have nothing to show for. You have to change your playstyle, your skills and abilities just so you can smash some random people. It does not feel good, at least not in a ROLE PLAYING GAME.

Ps. Sorry if there is alot of grammer issues and spelling mistakes

maouw

@rikardp98
I didn't notice anything until I saw grammer (should be: grammar)
HAHAHAHA

rikardp98

maouw wrote: »

@rikardp98
I didn't notice anything until I saw grammer (should be: grammar)
HAHAHAHA

damn it

Altodor

rikardp98 wrote: »

I just want to say that this is an mmoRPG, a role playing game where the story lies in the characters and not the player behind the screen. And what is a part of that character? Gear, abilities, playstyle and build/specc/skillpoints.

I really like the idea of having arena being a part of the military node, but I'm also fine with instance Arena similar to wow. However, I personally feel like gear should matter.
If a new player enters a random arena and gets totally crushed by another player they will either do two things.
1. Stop doing arena and focus on other stuff like PvE content och large scale pvp.
2. They will start to do some research to find out how that character could do something like that. They will try and learn about there characters and class to find something special that will enable them to evolve. Then some day efter many hours of building a character grinding open world pvp, arena, large scale pvp they may be able to be that on character on the server that just totally smash other players. They will rise from the ashes and become a pure pvp phoenix
3. Btw, point 1 will also lead to point 2 after a while xD

A mmoRPG is all about having goals with your character and trying to get there by playing the game, which will give you, gear that makes you stronger but also knowledge about the game and your class that you can use to destroy people in arena for example.

If you do not like the role playing theme in mmorpgs then ashes may not be the game for you. Try and look in to fps or mobas like LOL.

And finally, if you want a example where players thought they wanted equal standing in arena but then they found out that it just didn't work, look at WoW. Blizzard thought that could turn WoW arena, a role playing game arena, into a esports where everyone start on equal footing, but it just didn't work.
Why didn't it work you might ask?
Well players play there characters in the open world for hours to get gear, skill and knowledge (as mentioned before), and then you enter an arena and all that is gone, all your work is gone, you have nothing to show for. You have to change your playstyle, your skills and abilities just so you can smash some random people. It does not feel good, at least not in a ROLE PLAYING GAME.

Ps. Sorry if there is alot of grammer issues and spelling mistakes

Id say ive changed my mind already about gear being equalized. Im thinking of a soft cap system now. I dont think because gear power is equal that all other forms of progression are lost though

rikardp98

@Altodor
Let me ask you one thing, when you talk about arena, are you talking about ranked arena or just random arenas?

If we are talking about ranked arena I can see the argument of having a latter system similar to wow, where higher ranked players play against each other (nothing to do with gear points/item level or whatever you want to call it)

However, in random arenas where nothing is really on the line and you play for fun, I do not see the point of having a "soft cap system".

Altodor

rikardp98 wrote: »

@Altodor
Let me ask you one thing, when you talk about arena, are you talking about ranked arena or just random arenas?

If we are talking about ranked arena I can see the argument of having a latter system similar to wow, where higher ranked players play against each other (nothing to do with gear points/item level or whatever you want to call it)

However, in random arenas where nothing is really on the line and you play for fun, I do not see the point of having a "soft cap system".

Im talking about ranked arenas specifically

Siyreouz

It's my personal opinion that "Meta" gaming will be consistently changing. Not because of equalization or nerfs/class balance, but because of gear/augment combinations. There will be theory crafting and counter strating that every MMORPG has. Not any reckless group that joins que is going to be able too compete with the best. Simply because the players aren't as skilled, and they wont have proper armor types/augments or class combinations to beat a superior team. Just because a totally savage team is able to wipe the floor against certain combos doesn't mean they are the catch 22. Certainly there will be other class and gear combinations that will laugh at them as they try their hardest to win.

Vhaeyne

George Black wrote: »

Back in 2005 I thought the same thing the OP is asking for.

"What if gear didnt matter?! I'd show all these people my sKiLl. "

And then I realize how stupid it is to want to compete for high stakes with people in L2 olympiad that had spent time and effort dealing with PvE challenges, PvP ambushes, territory control, crafting and organizing whole guilds, with my lazy no gear character that I didnt put the effort to get proper gear, but I was fvcking around all day.

How about no? It's not us wanting to smash lower gear people, it's you having the nerve to demand that a part of the mmo genre goes out of the window because you delude yourselves thinking that you have more skill than others.

Git gud sons. Stop asking for benefits. Enough with the handholding everybody gets a trophy mmos.

"it's you having the nerve to demand that a part of the mmo genre goes out of the window because you delude yourselves thinking that you have more skill than others."-George Black

I had to quote it twice because it is so damn perfect. What would have taken me paragraphs to say.

Noaani

I've been reading this thread, as well as the one that lead to it, and the main thought I have in regards to this is simply - why?

The question seems to be about the competitive aspect of the arena, but with the way Ashes is set up, the arena is likely to be the least competitive aspect of the whole game.

Everything in the open world in Ashes is a competition. That is real competition (in gaming terms), not artificial competition. The results of that competition have real repercussions (in gaming terms).

To me, this request would have made sense if the request was for equalized gear for arenas since the arena is likely going to be the least competitive aspect of the game.

Yuquiyu

Sathrago wrote: »

This is all correct until you realize we are playing an MMORPG, making you wrong. This is not an fps and not even mobas do this sort of thing.

Gearing up is one of the most impactful and rewarding parts of an MMO. Removing that aspect to cater to, or specifically only for, arenas is not going to work out well. The game is being designed for a base team of 8 players and up for large group pvp.

Now if you strictly want to make this an arena only thing I feel you are asking too much for such a small part of the game. They would have to completely rebalance individual classes for arena play to give you that sense of "fairness". Otherwise there will be combinations that completely wipe the floor with others making most other combinations obsolete.

Ultimately, removing gear as a factor would neuter any attempt to play off-meta builds that require specific types of stats at high levels to be competitive.

this post essentially sums up most problems that would arise with a system like this
it simply doesn't make sense for the type of game AoC is trying to be

Crosim

I personally dislike any type of content that takes my character and scales is. Not only does it dilute your sense of progression, but if you spend a good 5 or 6 hours just in 'roided out area mode' and then go jump into some caravan PvP ... oof ... feels bad man. That feeling has more of an impact on a chemical level than you might think, and can directly alter your motivations for the game without you even thinking about it. You've played yourself before you even knew it.

Softcaps are just as bad, if not worse than just scaling up because you promote a kind of system where you focus on items outside of your primary stat.

Example: You are a melee fighter guy, DPS, just need to hit things hard. Poor gear is 100 strength, good gear is 200 strength. You have a soft cap of 150. So instead of your fighter guy trying to get the most strength to be better, hes now going out and getting gear that would normally be less of an upgrade for him so that his strength does not go past 150, but get can get his dexterity up by 50 more points.

Vegasbum

I hope they move away from magic backpacks that will hold 3 to 5 sets of armor and weapons and gear. It would be nice to see.

mcstackerson

Crosim wrote: »

Softcaps are just as bad, if not worse than just scaling up because you promote a kind of system where you focus on items outside of your primary stat.

Example: You are a melee fighter guy, DPS, just need to hit things hard. Poor gear is 100 strength, good gear is 200 strength. You have a soft cap of 150. So instead of your fighter guy trying to get the most strength to be better, hes now going out and getting gear that would normally be less of an upgrade for him so that his strength does not go past 150, but get can get his dexterity up by 50 more points.

I agree with your comment about scaling but I disagree with softcap argument, at least as a concept.

Assuming a softcap is a where you start suffering diminishing returns on stat investment, i think it helps for variety. Without it, you are only ever looking at the value for one stat which i find boring but with it, you can start to consider other stat combinations.

I also think hitting certain caps are good goals for players to have.

Crosim

mcstackerson wrote: »

I agree with your comment about scaling but I disagree with softcap argument, at least as a concept.

Assuming a softcap is a where you start suffering diminishing returns on stat investment, i think it helps for variety. Without it, you are only ever looking at the value for one stat which i find boring but with it, you can start to consider other stat combinations.

I also think hitting certain caps are good goals for players to have.

Yeah, I kinda feel like some scale is good and some kinds of multiple varied miscellaneous stats are great, just not with a primary ability score? I agree with you that having a single stat character build would be boring. I was just meaning to the point that you create a situation where you are actively avoiding wearing what is 'best' for you in the open world, because arena will make it scale different.

I know very little about how combat works and stats will work in ashes, but I can imagine anyone who plays a DPS class is never going to like when you start tuning knobs on how often they crit. I feel like having really any kind of system where you don't play your character as you've made it, is not very healthy to the game.

I also personally despise PvP stats, so my opinion on this whole thing is kinda bias. I am not trying to sound like an old-timer here but: "Back in my day, you did raids and got good loot so that you would do better in PvP." I feel like thats a good way to have things? I feel like a player is totally welcome to like and focus on one kind of content, but if you want to be competitive against other players, you should be expected to play the whole game.

Atama

Since PvE and PvP will be intertwined (which is the definition of a PvX game like Ashes) there won’t be any segregation of stats. If you hit hard in PvE, you’ll hit just as hard in PvP. In either case it’ll depend on your opponent’s toughness.