Atama wrote: » Altodor wrote: » Atama wrote: » I absolutely hate when I'm playing an MMO, improving my gear and developing a solid build for my character, getting a playstyle I enjoy and work on perfecting... Then I do a quest or game mode that has me play as something unrelated to my character where all my accomplishments mean nothing. Such as controlling a different kind of character temporarily or playing a mode where none of that matters. It sucks and I try to avoid it. If arenas worked that way, you'd bet I would avoid them. If you want a PvP where skill alone matters, that's what tavern games will do for you in AoC. I and everyone else doesnt compare a parlor game to playing your class in an arena. I totally agree with what you mean but not when it comes to arena. IMO it is not a place to measure gear score its a place to measure skill and compete for fun. It should be a separate part of the game. I have always thought there are a lot ways to use your progression in this game. All with a risk vs reward structure. Doesnt need to involve Arena when the reward part of it isnt a big deal. Power stones at the end of you season wont be a big reason to grind Arena's all day. Thats another topic though I think The problem is that this is only your opinion and the rest of the community does not share it. Oh well.
Altodor wrote: » Atama wrote: » I absolutely hate when I'm playing an MMO, improving my gear and developing a solid build for my character, getting a playstyle I enjoy and work on perfecting... Then I do a quest or game mode that has me play as something unrelated to my character where all my accomplishments mean nothing. Such as controlling a different kind of character temporarily or playing a mode where none of that matters. It sucks and I try to avoid it. If arenas worked that way, you'd bet I would avoid them. If you want a PvP where skill alone matters, that's what tavern games will do for you in AoC. I and everyone else doesnt compare a parlor game to playing your class in an arena. I totally agree with what you mean but not when it comes to arena. IMO it is not a place to measure gear score its a place to measure skill and compete for fun. It should be a separate part of the game. I have always thought there are a lot ways to use your progression in this game. All with a risk vs reward structure. Doesnt need to involve Arena when the reward part of it isnt a big deal. Power stones at the end of you season wont be a big reason to grind Arena's all day. Thats another topic though I think
Atama wrote: » I absolutely hate when I'm playing an MMO, improving my gear and developing a solid build for my character, getting a playstyle I enjoy and work on perfecting... Then I do a quest or game mode that has me play as something unrelated to my character where all my accomplishments mean nothing. Such as controlling a different kind of character temporarily or playing a mode where none of that matters. It sucks and I try to avoid it. If arenas worked that way, you'd bet I would avoid them. If you want a PvP where skill alone matters, that's what tavern games will do for you in AoC.
Maezriel wrote: » I feel the "This is an MMO gear should matter," Is mostly people trying not to outright say "I want to smash the teeth in of those I vastly outgear regardless of my actual skill." You can still make "gear matter" in a way that @Altodor is suggesting by allowing players to build different sets. Just give equal access to everyone in the Arena so that a fight is dictated by knowledge and skill of your class and isn't just decided b/c someone no-life ground out a currency to buy a set that just 1-shots you. That said, I don't actually think I want Arena's to be a focus of the game. I'm all for it being a small side game, but I actually strongly dislike that there's already 1v1 and 3v3 options and a ladder b/c every game I've played that's tried to cater to both PvE and PvP play has spectacularly failed at it. At least in AoC there likely won't be a clear distinction between a PvE and PvP build due to there always being a present danger of encountering both, but as soon as you remove one from the equation degenerate metas form that force the devs to make changes that will affect the other side.
Altodor wrote: » Tyrantor wrote: » Altodor wrote: » I think gear should not matter. Build Creativity 1. Give us all base stats and points to allocate into these stats. This replaces gear and allows flexibility in character builds. 2. Team Compositions 3. Personal Skill Tree Point Allocation These are the only things that should matter in a ranked arena ladder. They allow for an equal playing field and enough creativity to have fun with different ideas. This is an MMO not a console fighter game. Gear should matter. I just feel like it shouldnt matter in a competitive setting like the arena where rewards dont matter anyways. Im thinking that the rest of the game is alluring enough to not keep you in there forever. I wanted the game to be like 40 60 arena - rest of game or maybe 30 70.
Tyrantor wrote: » Altodor wrote: » I think gear should not matter. Build Creativity 1. Give us all base stats and points to allocate into these stats. This replaces gear and allows flexibility in character builds. 2. Team Compositions 3. Personal Skill Tree Point Allocation These are the only things that should matter in a ranked arena ladder. They allow for an equal playing field and enough creativity to have fun with different ideas. This is an MMO not a console fighter game. Gear should matter.
Altodor wrote: » I think gear should not matter. Build Creativity 1. Give us all base stats and points to allocate into these stats. This replaces gear and allows flexibility in character builds. 2. Team Compositions 3. Personal Skill Tree Point Allocation These are the only things that should matter in a ranked arena ladder. They allow for an equal playing field and enough creativity to have fun with different ideas.
Altodor wrote: » ...I wanted the game to be like 40 60 arena - rest of game or maybe 30 70.
Ravudha wrote: » Altodor wrote: » I dont like the idea that newer players cant get into arena because they dont have good gear and get roflstomped. Or they cant climb the ladder because they get roflstomped. Sounds like a perfect way to incentivise players to go out into the world and earn better gear. If gear is equalised I'd be worried about a whole lot of players just playing arena with no reason to go out into the world.
Altodor wrote: » I dont like the idea that newer players cant get into arena because they dont have good gear and get roflstomped. Or they cant climb the ladder because they get roflstomped.
Noaani wrote: » Sathrago wrote: » This is all correct until you realize we are playing an MMORPG, making you wrong. Totally agree. Part of a build in any good MMO is the choices you make in regards to gear. In a game like WoW that has a very linear structure for gear, it is understandable that some players may look at gear as being how far along a specific progression path a character is and has no real say as to how good the player is. In good MMO's though, the gear you equip often says a lot about how good of a player you are. This is never more true than in an MMO with no class based item restrictions. Good players equip gear that either compliments their strengths, or covers over some of their weaknesses. As such, gear is as important a part of your build - and as important a part of the creativity of that build - as where you allocate skill points, what skills you opt for and what augments you place on them. Removing gear from the equation in arenas is stifling creativity in regards to builds, not encouraging it.
Sathrago wrote: » This is all correct until you realize we are playing an MMORPG, making you wrong.
Nagash wrote: » Tyrantor wrote: » Altodor wrote: » I think gear should not matter. Build Creativity 1. Give us all base stats and points to allocate into these stats. This replaces gear and allows flexibility in character builds. 2. Team Compositions 3. Personal Skill Tree Point Allocation These are the only things that should matter in a ranked arena ladder. They allow for an equal playing field and enough creativity to have fun with different ideas. This is an MMO not a console fighter game. Gear should matter. I know want a bare-knuckle fight in the mmo with a fighting game announcer ^^
Sathrago wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » I feel the "This is an MMO gear should matter," Is mostly people trying not to outright say "I want to smash the teeth in of those I vastly outgear regardless of my actual skill." You can still make "gear matter" in a way that @Altodor is suggesting by allowing players to build different sets. Just give equal access to everyone in the Arena so that a fight is dictated by knowledge and skill of your class and isn't just decided b/c someone no-life ground out a currency to buy a set that just 1-shots you. That said, I don't actually think I want Arena's to be a focus of the game. I'm all for it being a small side game, but I actually strongly dislike that there's already 1v1 and 3v3 options and a ladder b/c every game I've played that's tried to cater to both PvE and PvP play has spectacularly failed at it. At least in AoC there likely won't be a clear distinction between a PvE and PvP build due to there always being a present danger of encountering both, but as soon as you remove one from the equation degenerate metas form that force the devs to make changes that will affect the other side. You hit the nail on the head. This is the reason why we say "This is an MMO gear should matter". Its the short version of what you just said. We do not want them to feel like they need to balance around arenas because all of a sudden some classes are base-line better than others due to no gap in gear. If a patch of grass is cut, it makes it easier to see the fastest growing blade. Basically what I am saying is, the more differences you remove from an equation the more prominent each variable becomes. If there is no gear difference, its class choice. if its not class choice its augment choice. If its not augment choice its racial difference. If it's not racial difference, its weapon choice. We ultimately end up playing gray blobs that all deal 1 damage and every game will end in a tie. This cycles back into the initial statement of: This is an MMO gear should matter. If we have enough variables that players can use to their advantage and blur the line between skill, you allow people that probably wouldn't do arena to participate in it and you encourage arena players to get out and experience the open world.
George Black wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » I feel the "This is an MMO gear should matter," Is mostly people trying not to outright say "I want to smash the teeth in of those I vastly outgear regardless of my actual skill." You can still make "gear matter" in a way that @Altodor is suggesting by allowing players to build different sets. Just give equal access to everyone in the Arena so that a fight is dictated by knowledge and skill of your class and isn't just decided b/c someone no-life ground out a currency to buy a set that just 1-shots you. That said, I don't actually think I want Arena's to be a focus of the game. I'm all for it being a small side game, but I actually strongly dislike that there's already 1v1 and 3v3 options and a ladder b/c every game I've played that's tried to cater to both PvE and PvP play has spectacularly failed at it. At least in AoC there likely won't be a clear distinction between a PvE and PvP build due to there always being a present danger of encountering both, but as soon as you remove one from the equation degenerate metas form that force the devs to make changes that will affect the other side. Whatever helps you sleep at night. Back in 2005 I thought the same thing the OP is asking for. "What if gear didnt matter?! I'd show all these people my sKiLl. " And then I realize how stupid it is to want to compete for high stakes with people in L2 olympiad that had spent time and effort dealing with PvE challenges, PvP ambushes, territory control, crafting and organizing whole guilds, with my lazy no gear character that I didnt put the effort to get proper gear, but I was fvcking around all day. How about no? It's not us wanting to smash lower gear people, it's you having the nerve to demand that a part of the mmo genre goes out of the window because you delude yourselves thinking that you have more skill than others. Not gonna happen. Your only hope is if military node leader selection goes ahead with that champion system IS talked about earlier this year. I for one want to see people like a friend of mine beating higher geared people with his lower geared characterhttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=znekmHmfq2E Underlevelled, undergeared, and the higher lv dude cheated. My guy still won. One of the many suchs fights of a bygone pvp era. (And before anyone says sk was op in l2, there was a fight of my mate at 66 lv skbeating a 72 lv sk. Kav was the name. Git gud sons. Stop asking for benefits. Enough with the handholding everybody gets a trophy mmos.
George Black wrote: » Btw personally I found it annoying that I could jump into BGs without gear in some mmos, and still fight. "Whats the point of gearing up..." Non stop I was thinking that. "Whats the point when everything is optional? What are the goals? RP pve?"
Maezriel wrote: » And this is why I don't think Arena should be anything more than a side game w/ no official ladder or rewards. I see both sides of the argument and right now these forums are full of old school masochists MMO players, but there's no guarantee that'll remain the norm as the game grows. There's a solid chance that as people play Arena's that it'll become a greater and greater focus...which leads to exactly what I said about the devs balancing one gamemode that's wholly separate from all the rest. If you want the world of Verra to be the primary content then there shouldn't be ladders and rewards for playing a mode that completely takes you outside of the world. Those rewards makes it far too tempting for people to want to no-life Arena's which'll cause them to want balance changes to the content they interact w/ the most.
Damokles wrote: » Altodor wrote: » Tyrantor wrote: » Altodor wrote: » I think gear should not matter. Build Creativity 1. Give us all base stats and points to allocate into these stats. This replaces gear and allows flexibility in character builds. 2. Team Compositions 3. Personal Skill Tree Point Allocation These are the only things that should matter in a ranked arena ladder. They allow for an equal playing field and enough creativity to have fun with different ideas. This is an MMO not a console fighter game. Gear should matter. I just feel like it shouldnt matter in a competitive setting like the arena where rewards dont matter anyways. Im thinking that the rest of the game is alluring enough to not keep you in there forever. I wanted the game to be like 40 60 arena - rest of game or maybe 30 70. You want 40-60 / 30-70 arena - EVERYTHING ELSE?!? Dude you must be dreaming :'D Lets say that the game will be 50-50 PvP-PvE (PvE in this case includes things like crafting, trading, dungeons, raids, worldbosses). I would say that of those 50% PvP around 15% would be arena content. The rest is open world, caravans, node sieges, castle sieges, guild wars, etc.
Altodor wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sathrago wrote: » This is all correct until you realize we are playing an MMORPG, making you wrong. Totally agree. Part of a build in any good MMO is the choices you make in regards to gear. In a game like WoW that has a very linear structure for gear, it is understandable that some players may look at gear as being how far along a specific progression path a character is and has no real say as to how good the player is. In good MMO's though, the gear you equip often says a lot about how good of a player you are. This is never more true than in an MMO with no class based item restrictions. Good players equip gear that either compliments their strengths, or covers over some of their weaknesses. As such, gear is as important a part of your build - and as important a part of the creativity of that build - as where you allocate skill points, what skills you opt for and what augments you place on them. Removing gear from the equation in arenas is stifling creativity in regards to builds, not encouraging it. Ive come to agree with this point. Ive been thinking of a power level softcap that scales as you increase in rating and stops at a certain rating at a mid to high tier power level. Keeps gear relevant - keeps people with similar power in the same rating area - protects da noobz Still dont know if Ashes is gonna have a power rating system like Item level and I am trying to design something around an imaginary power system. Looking at albion online they have a softcap on hellgates. I think GW1 had something like equal gear I still gotta look. Whatchu think about the softcap system
Altodor wrote: » Im thinking about starting a new thread discussing a soft cap system for arena idk
Sov54 wrote: » Altodor wrote: » ...I wanted the game to be like 40 60 arena - rest of game or maybe 30 70. You probably got in the forum of the wrong game, at this point. I really hope I'm wrong and we can all enjoy AoC one day, but so far it looks like you should try to find a different game. So far, this is not the one you are looking for and will be disappointed with it.
Noaani wrote: » Altodor wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Sathrago wrote: » This is all correct until you realize we are playing an MMORPG, making you wrong. Totally agree. Part of a build in any good MMO is the choices you make in regards to gear. In a game like WoW that has a very linear structure for gear, it is understandable that some players may look at gear as being how far along a specific progression path a character is and has no real say as to how good the player is. In good MMO's though, the gear you equip often says a lot about how good of a player you are. This is never more true than in an MMO with no class based item restrictions. Good players equip gear that either compliments their strengths, or covers over some of their weaknesses. As such, gear is as important a part of your build - and as important a part of the creativity of that build - as where you allocate skill points, what skills you opt for and what augments you place on them. Removing gear from the equation in arenas is stifling creativity in regards to builds, not encouraging it. Ive come to agree with this point. Ive been thinking of a power level softcap that scales as you increase in rating and stops at a certain rating at a mid to high tier power level. Keeps gear relevant - keeps people with similar power in the same rating area - protects da noobz Still dont know if Ashes is gonna have a power rating system like Item level and I am trying to design something around an imaginary power system. Looking at albion online they have a softcap on hellgates. I think GW1 had something like equal gear I still gotta look. Whatchu think about the softcap system I'm personally against any kind of rating system for players that is anything other than the sum of their actions (so combat trackers, KVD ratios and arena ladders are all fine by me, but gear score is not). I am also against any systems that are not immediately logical to new players. Needing to get to a specific level to participate in an arena is logical (though not a good solution), but needing to get to a certain power level is not logical. To me though, the main thing I have with arena suggestions are that we straight up don't know enough about the arena in Ashes to be able to make informed suggestions. If the arena is something that players can sign up for at any time and be ported to the arena itself when there is a match made, then as far as I am concerned, the arena should be as minimal as possible. It should just be a fight between the few players present, with minimal rewards, and that is it. On the other hand, if the arena is - say - a builting that a military node has to build once it is at city or metropolis level, which then allows players to enter that building and participate in a matchmaking process, then the arena itself can be somewhat more substantial, as it has become a gameplay element that players need to focus on in order to participate in, rather than a piece of side content. What I'd really like to see as an arena system for Ashes is that military nodes that hit the village stage automatically get an arena built - though at this stage it would be little more than a patch of dirt. Since the first mayor is "elected" a week or so after the node hits village stage, and the "election" in a military node is an arena fight, it makes sense to give military nodes arenas as they become village stage. From there, make it so the node can upgrade the arena at each additional node level, giving it three upgrades it can make (town level, city and metropolis). Make it so that each upgrade expands the scope of who can compete in that arena - with village nodes only open to citizens of the node, town level open to citizens of all nodes that are vassals of the same node as the military node in question, city level open to all citizens of the sever, and metropolis open to all citizens of all servers that have a metropolis level node. It could even be that a metropolis level node is so large, it can be flooded to allow for naval arenas. From there, you create a government position within militray nodes that controls the arena. Allow them to set up competitions with specific rulesets (which could include normalized gear, if they want). From there, players are able to elect whether to look for a match in this alternate ruleset arena, or look for one in a regular arena, all based on what ever level of arena they are participating form. These officials could even set up a specific layout of various objects within the arena. This suggestion would do a few things. The first thing it would do (in relation to this thread) is allow players to have a full on competition based around normalized gear - but it will do so in a way that doesn't interfere with the arena as a whole. Other than that, it would mean that arena afficionados now have a solid reason to care about what happens in the open world. They will need to level up a node and build the arena, all in the open world, and then they also need to be prepared to defend that node with their arena should it ever be sieged. If the node loses a siege, players obviously no longer have that same level of arena access that they had. This idea is not totally dissimilar to one that was on these forums not that long ago - but that suggestion has issues in relation to rewards and gambling, two things that didn't quite fit in with the rest of the game (much as an arena that will port you when a match is made doesn't fit with the rest of the game). To me, that is the best way to implement arenas in to Ashes, specifically. It may not work for all games, but it is the most fitting way I have been able to think of to implement them in to this game.
Atama wrote: » Altodor wrote: » Im thinking about starting a new thread discussing a soft cap system for arena idk Go for it. I think that’s more reasonable. And good on you for adjusting your ideas based on feedback. The community needs more people like you.
