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Arena and Gear Equalization

2

Comments

  • MaezrielMaezriel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I feel the "This is an MMO gear should matter," Is mostly people trying not to outright say "I want to smash the teeth in of those I vastly outgear regardless of my actual skill."

    You can still make "gear matter" in a way that @Altodor is suggesting by allowing players to build different sets. Just give equal access to everyone in the Arena so that a fight is dictated by knowledge and skill of your class and isn't just decided b/c someone no-life ground out a currency to buy a set that just 1-shots you.


    That said, I don't actually think I want Arena's to be a focus of the game. I'm all for it being a small side game, but I actually strongly dislike that there's already 1v1 and 3v3 options and a ladder b/c every game I've played that's tried to cater to both PvE and PvP play has spectacularly failed at it.

    At least in AoC there likely won't be a clear distinction between a PvE and PvP build due to there always being a present danger of encountering both, but as soon as you remove one from the equation degenerate metas form that force the devs to make changes that will affect the other side.
    ZeFuP1X.png
    If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
  • SathragoSathrago Member
    edited November 2020
    Maezriel wrote: »
    I feel the "This is an MMO gear should matter," Is mostly people trying not to outright say "I want to smash the teeth in of those I vastly outgear regardless of my actual skill."

    You can still make "gear matter" in a way that @Altodor is suggesting by allowing players to build different sets. Just give equal access to everyone in the Arena so that a fight is dictated by knowledge and skill of your class and isn't just decided b/c someone no-life ground out a currency to buy a set that just 1-shots you.


    That said, I don't actually think I want Arena's to be a focus of the game. I'm all for it being a small side game, but I actually strongly dislike that there's already 1v1 and 3v3 options and a ladder b/c every game I've played that's tried to cater to both PvE and PvP play has spectacularly failed at it.

    At least in AoC there likely won't be a clear distinction between a PvE and PvP build due to there always being a present danger of encountering both, but as soon as you remove one from the equation degenerate metas form that force the devs to make changes that will affect the other side.

    You hit the nail on the head. This is the reason why we say "This is an MMO gear should matter". Its the short version of what you just said. We do not want them to feel like they need to balance around arenas because all of a sudden some classes are base-line better than others due to no gap in gear. If a patch of grass is cut, it makes it easier to see the fastest growing blade. Basically what I am saying is, the more differences you remove from an equation the more prominent each variable becomes.

    If there is no gear difference, its class choice. if its not class choice its augment choice. If its not augment choice its racial difference. If it's not racial difference, its weapon choice. We ultimately end up playing gray blobs that all deal 1 damage and every game will end in a tie. This cycles back into the initial statement of: This is an MMO gear should matter. If we have enough variables that players can use to their advantage and blur the line between skill, you allow people that probably wouldn't do arena to participate in it and you encourage arena players to get out and experience the open world.
    5000x1000px_Sathrago_Commission_RavenJuu.jpg?ex=661327bf&is=6600b2bf&hm=e6652ad4fec65a6fe03abd2e8111482acb29206799f1a336b09f703d4ff33c8b&
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited November 2020
    Maezriel wrote: »
    I feel the "This is an MMO gear should matter," Is mostly people trying not to outright say "I want to smash the teeth in of those I vastly outgear regardless of my actual skill."

    You can still make "gear matter" in a way that @Altodor is suggesting by allowing players to build different sets. Just give equal access to everyone in the Arena so that a fight is dictated by knowledge and skill of your class and isn't just decided b/c someone no-life ground out a currency to buy a set that just 1-shots you.


    That said, I don't actually think I want Arena's to be a focus of the game. I'm all for it being a small side game, but I actually strongly dislike that there's already 1v1 and 3v3 options and a ladder b/c every game I've played that's tried to cater to both PvE and PvP play has spectacularly failed at it.

    At least in AoC there likely won't be a clear distinction between a PvE and PvP build due to there always being a present danger of encountering both, but as soon as you remove one from the equation degenerate metas form that force the devs to make changes that will affect the other side.

    Whatever helps you sleep at night.
    Back in 2005 I thought the same thing the OP is asking for.

    "What if gear didnt matter?! I'd show all these people my sKiLl. "

    And then I realize how stupid it is to want to compete for high stakes with people in L2 olympiad that had spent time and effort dealing with PvE challenges, PvP ambushes, territory control, crafting and organizing whole guilds, with my lazy no gear character that I didnt put the effort to get proper gear, but I was fvcking around all day.

    How about no? It's not us wanting to smash lower gear people, it's you having the nerve to demand that a part of the mmo genre goes out of the window because you delude yourselves thinking that you have more skill than others.

    Not gonna happen. Your only hope is if military node leader selection goes ahead with that champion system IS talked about earlier this year.


    I for one want to see people like a friend of mine beating higher geared people with his lower geared character
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=znekmHmfq2E

    Underlevelled, undergeared, and the higher lv dude cheated. My guy still won. One of the many suchs fights of a bygone pvp era.
    (And before anyone says sk was op in l2, there was a fight of my mate at 66 lv skbeating a 72 lv sk. Kav was the name.


    Git gud sons. Stop asking for benefits. Enough with the handholding everybody gets a trophy mmos.
  • Sov54Sov54 Member
    edited November 2020
    Maezriel wrote: »
    I feel the "This is an MMO gear should matter," Is mostly people trying not to outright say "I want to smash the teeth in of those I vastly outgear regardless of my actual skill."

    I won't have the time to tryhard this time, but still support the "Gear should matter" argument.

    As @Sathrago said, I still prefer to get stomped by a not PVP-optimized guy who has put the time and effort in the open world to grow his character, than by a min/maxer cookie-cutter-spec exploiter that wants to PWN NOOBZ with no effort put in the open world.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Btw personally I found it annoying that I could jump into BGs without gear in some mmos, and still fight.

    "Whats the point of gearing up..."
    Non stop I was thinking that.
    "Whats the point when everything is optional? What are the goals? RP pve?"
  • MaezrielMaezriel Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    And this is why I don't think Arena should be anything more than a side game w/ no official ladder or rewards.

    I see both sides of the argument and right now these forums are full of old school masochists MMO players, but there's no guarantee that'll remain the norm as the game grows.

    There's a solid chance that as people play Arena's that it'll become a greater and greater focus...which leads to exactly what I said about the devs balancing one gamemode that's wholly separate from all the rest.

    If you want the world of Verra to be the primary content then there shouldn't be ladders and rewards for playing a mode that completely takes you outside of the world. Those rewards makes it far too tempting for people to want to no-life Arena's which'll cause them to want balance changes to the content they interact w/ the most.
    ZeFuP1X.png
    If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
  • sounds more like some people here want to
    Maezriel wrote: »
    If you want the world of Verra to be the primary content then there shouldn't be ladders and rewards for playing a mode that completely takes you outside of the world. Those rewards makes it far too tempting for people to want to no-life Arena's which'll cause them to want balance changes to the content they interact w/ the most.

    you got it. There shouldn't be an instanced arena in the first place.
  • AltodorAltodor Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Warth wrote: »
    Altodor wrote: »
    daveywavey wrote: »
    So, you're wanting it to be more like the Militaristic Node election process, where players take control of a "champion", and fight using that. Player gear and equipment doesn't have any effect there, cos it's not the "Player" character fighting.

    Yeah kinda they are doing that so skill is reflected better I think

    incorrect. Its to eliminate the class balance. You still have a month-long grind to equip your champion with good gear for the election tournament.

    Yeah that makes sense. Really good system if you ask me
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  • AltodorAltodor Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Warth wrote: »
    Interestingly enough nobody agreed with you this far Alto.
    You still just try to push your opinion even though the majority of the people responding to you is against it.

    Be that as it may, I personally was one of the people who have been against an instanced arena from the day they announced it. In my opinion, instanced arenas are a themepark feature that don't belong into an open world PvX game.

    Either way, I came to accept it knowing that,
    • there is no real/relevant progression achieved through playing the instanced content and the fact that
    • in order to compete there players are pushed out into the open world to gear.

    This provides the PvP Only / Arena community a place to compete within the game, while also forcing them to take part in the open world nature of the game. Forcing them to venture into the open world to get the gear makes sure of that. I don't think segregated PvP or PvE communities within the game should be a thing unless they are being tied into the core aspect of the game: The open world.

    I understand why some Arena-only players don't like that, but then it simply might not be the game you are truely looking for. You could look into Zeal for that, which is pretty much an mmo-lite, focusing on balanced, instanced Arenas, Battlegrounds and Dungeons. without "annoying leveling and progressions" - just pure competition with the character building aspects of an MMO

    Hey Warth. Everyone you said makes sense to me thanks for writing.

    Now im more inclined to think about people joining the game and just doing arena hurting the open world which is really what this game is all about. But I would still like arena to be a competitive place for team vs team content and not reflect gear score. I dont care as much about my point since I rather have the rest of the PvP have more players in them.

    So maybe a solution would be making arena only for max level. You could experience most of the game through the long leveling process and if that doesnt filter out people who only want arena I dont know what will. The vision is 225 hours to reach max level.

    Also I have thought about these points but I thought that the open world PvP would be engaging enough to want to earn gear and do better. Caravan PvP seems like a good money maker and popular amongst players and the sieging stuff is so fun to think about I would really like to gear for that stuff.

    I wanna have my cake and eat it too. PvP with a purpose and PvP in a competitive setting. Maybe theres a way to achieve that I havent though about a perfect idea
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  • AltodorAltodor Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Tyrantor wrote: »
    Altodor wrote: »
    I think gear should not matter.

    Build Creativity
    1. Give us all base stats and points to allocate into these stats. This replaces gear and allows flexibility in character builds.
    2. Team Compositions
    3. Personal Skill Tree Point Allocation

    These are the only things that should matter in a ranked arena ladder. They allow for an equal playing field and enough creativity to have fun with different ideas.

    This is an MMO not a console fighter game. Gear should matter.

    I just feel like it shouldnt matter in a competitive setting like the arena where rewards dont matter anyways. Im thinking that the rest of the game is alluring enough to not keep you in there forever. I wanted the game to be like 40 60 arena - rest of game or maybe 30 70.
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  • AltodorAltodor Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Atama wrote: »
    Altodor wrote: »
    Atama wrote: »
    I absolutely hate when I'm playing an MMO, improving my gear and developing a solid build for my character, getting a playstyle I enjoy and work on perfecting... Then I do a quest or game mode that has me play as something unrelated to my character where all my accomplishments mean nothing. Such as controlling a different kind of character temporarily or playing a mode where none of that matters. It sucks and I try to avoid it.

    If arenas worked that way, you'd bet I would avoid them. If you want a PvP where skill alone matters, that's what tavern games will do for you in AoC.

    I and everyone else doesnt compare a parlor game to playing your class in an arena. I totally agree with what you mean but not when it comes to arena. IMO it is not a place to measure gear score its a place to measure skill and compete for fun. It should be a separate part of the game.

    I have always thought there are a lot ways to use your progression in this game. All with a risk vs reward structure. Doesnt need to involve Arena when the reward part of it isnt a big deal. Power stones at the end of you season wont be a big reason to grind Arena's all day. Thats another topic though I think
    The problem is that this is only your opinion and the rest of the community does not share it. Oh well.

    Im just out here trying to convince peeps yo
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  • AltodorAltodor Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Maezriel wrote: »
    I feel the "This is an MMO gear should matter," Is mostly people trying not to outright say "I want to smash the teeth in of those I vastly outgear regardless of my actual skill."

    You can still make "gear matter" in a way that @Altodor is suggesting by allowing players to build different sets. Just give equal access to everyone in the Arena so that a fight is dictated by knowledge and skill of your class and isn't just decided b/c someone no-life ground out a currency to buy a set that just 1-shots you.


    That said, I don't actually think I want Arena's to be a focus of the game. I'm all for it being a small side game, but I actually strongly dislike that there's already 1v1 and 3v3 options and a ladder b/c every game I've played that's tried to cater to both PvE and PvP play has spectacularly failed at it.

    At least in AoC there likely won't be a clear distinction between a PvE and PvP build due to there always being a present danger of encountering both, but as soon as you remove one from the equation degenerate metas form that force the devs to make changes that will affect the other side.

    Yeah I want it to be a small side of the game too. Just a fair one. I was just thinking about a system (well a friend thought of it) where gear does matter. It involves soft capping stats the further you progress up the ladder. So its like 100 rating will limit your power. 200 rating would increase your power softcap so more of your gear matters.

    So like people still go out to get the gear they need for their builds. But gear does roflstomp lower rating people yatayata. Gear still matters but only as you progress the ladder I suppose. Idk I still need to think about this its not perfect
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  • DamoklesDamokles Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited November 2020
    Altodor wrote: »
    Tyrantor wrote: »
    Altodor wrote: »
    I think gear should not matter.

    Build Creativity
    1. Give us all base stats and points to allocate into these stats. This replaces gear and allows flexibility in character builds.
    2. Team Compositions
    3. Personal Skill Tree Point Allocation

    These are the only things that should matter in a ranked arena ladder. They allow for an equal playing field and enough creativity to have fun with different ideas.

    This is an MMO not a console fighter game. Gear should matter.

    I just feel like it shouldnt matter in a competitive setting like the arena where rewards dont matter anyways. Im thinking that the rest of the game is alluring enough to not keep you in there forever. I wanted the game to be like 40 60 arena - rest of game or maybe 30 70.

    You want 40-60 / 30-70 arena - EVERYTHING ELSE?!?

    tenor.gif

    Dude you must be dreaming :'D

    Lets say that the game will be 50-50 PvP-PvE (PvE in this case includes things like crafting, trading, dungeons, raids, worldbosses). I would say that of those 50% PvP around 15% would be arena content. The rest is open world, caravans, node sieges, castle sieges, guild wars, etc.
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  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited November 2020
    If you have to enter a fighting arena with gear selected from arena gear for a fair fight, then your gear can matter all you want. Boxing matches, UFC, etc. all use systems of fair fighting in the ring. No reason such rules cannot exist in a fantasy setting as well.

    Equalized gear tends to appeal to competitve PvPers. Ashes is trying to appeal to PvPers.
  • Sov54Sov54 Member
    edited November 2020
    Altodor wrote: »

    ...I wanted the game to be like 40 60 arena - rest of game or maybe 30 70.

    You probably got in the forum of the wrong game, at this point.

    I really hope I'm wrong and we can all enjoy AoC one day, but so far it looks like you should try to find a different game. So far, this is not the one you are looking for and will be disappointed with it.

  • AltodorAltodor Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Ravudha wrote: »
    Altodor wrote: »
    I dont like the idea that newer players cant get into arena because they dont have good gear and get roflstomped. Or they cant climb the ladder because they get roflstomped.

    Sounds like a perfect way to incentivise players to go out into the world and earn better gear.

    If gear is equalised I'd be worried about a whole lot of players just playing arena with no reason to go out into the world.

    @Ravudha Hey so the reason I thought about why I dont like that idea is because I see arena as a place to compete through skill. But the point that the open world needs to be the main focus of the game is way more important. So I figured maybe a power level softcap is a good option. Maybe as the higher rating you climb the softcap actually increases. Might keep the gigachads of our game from shitting on low rating noobs but also keeping gear relevant.

    If that system existed id like the softcap to increase to a certain point. Maybe where the mid-tier to high-tier gear power lands. People still grind and make a goal of reaching the softcap. Then anything extra will probably not be the deciding factor in a fight but it will matter to an extent

    That idea is kinda where im thinking since I changed my mind about gear equalization
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  • AltodorAltodor Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Noaani wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    This is all correct until you realize we are playing an MMORPG, making you wrong.
    Totally agree.

    Part of a build in any good MMO is the choices you make in regards to gear.

    In a game like WoW that has a very linear structure for gear, it is understandable that some players may look at gear as being how far along a specific progression path a character is and has no real say as to how good the player is.

    In good MMO's though, the gear you equip often says a lot about how good of a player you are. This is never more true than in an MMO with no class based item restrictions.

    Good players equip gear that either compliments their strengths, or covers over some of their weaknesses. As such, gear is as important a part of your build - and as important a part of the creativity of that build - as where you allocate skill points, what skills you opt for and what augments you place on them.

    Removing gear from the equation in arenas is stifling creativity in regards to builds, not encouraging it.

    Ive come to agree with this point. Ive been thinking of a power level softcap that scales as you increase in rating and stops at a certain rating at a mid to high tier power level.

    Keeps gear relevant - keeps people with similar power in the same rating area - protects da noobz

    Still dont know if Ashes is gonna have a power rating system like Item level and I am trying to design something around an imaginary power system. Looking at albion online they have a softcap on hellgates. I think GW1 had something like equal gear I still gotta look.

    Whatchu think about the softcap system
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  • AltodorAltodor Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Nagash wrote: »
    Tyrantor wrote: »
    Altodor wrote: »
    I think gear should not matter.

    Build Creativity
    1. Give us all base stats and points to allocate into these stats. This replaces gear and allows flexibility in character builds.
    2. Team Compositions
    3. Personal Skill Tree Point Allocation

    These are the only things that should matter in a ranked arena ladder. They allow for an equal playing field and enough creativity to have fun with different ideas.

    This is an MMO not a console fighter game. Gear should matter.

    I know want a bare-knuckle fight in the mmo with a fighting game announcer ^^

    You are literally everywhere my dude
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  • AltodorAltodor Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Maezriel wrote: »
    I feel the "This is an MMO gear should matter," Is mostly people trying not to outright say "I want to smash the teeth in of those I vastly outgear regardless of my actual skill."

    You can still make "gear matter" in a way that @Altodor is suggesting by allowing players to build different sets. Just give equal access to everyone in the Arena so that a fight is dictated by knowledge and skill of your class and isn't just decided b/c someone no-life ground out a currency to buy a set that just 1-shots you.


    That said, I don't actually think I want Arena's to be a focus of the game. I'm all for it being a small side game, but I actually strongly dislike that there's already 1v1 and 3v3 options and a ladder b/c every game I've played that's tried to cater to both PvE and PvP play has spectacularly failed at it.

    At least in AoC there likely won't be a clear distinction between a PvE and PvP build due to there always being a present danger of encountering both, but as soon as you remove one from the equation degenerate metas form that force the devs to make changes that will affect the other side.

    Idk if I should consider this offtopic or whatever I am new to being a forum goblin but when I read the cater to both PvE and PvP message it made me think of how most games that such juggling both is because they are balancing both sides.

    Since the AoC dudes want to balance around group content im not worried about that unless they change their minds. Yeah.
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  • AltodorAltodor Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Sathrago wrote: »
    Maezriel wrote: »
    I feel the "This is an MMO gear should matter," Is mostly people trying not to outright say "I want to smash the teeth in of those I vastly outgear regardless of my actual skill."

    You can still make "gear matter" in a way that @Altodor is suggesting by allowing players to build different sets. Just give equal access to everyone in the Arena so that a fight is dictated by knowledge and skill of your class and isn't just decided b/c someone no-life ground out a currency to buy a set that just 1-shots you.


    That said, I don't actually think I want Arena's to be a focus of the game. I'm all for it being a small side game, but I actually strongly dislike that there's already 1v1 and 3v3 options and a ladder b/c every game I've played that's tried to cater to both PvE and PvP play has spectacularly failed at it.

    At least in AoC there likely won't be a clear distinction between a PvE and PvP build due to there always being a present danger of encountering both, but as soon as you remove one from the equation degenerate metas form that force the devs to make changes that will affect the other side.

    You hit the nail on the head. This is the reason why we say "This is an MMO gear should matter". Its the short version of what you just said. We do not want them to feel like they need to balance around arenas because all of a sudden some classes are base-line better than others due to no gap in gear. If a patch of grass is cut, it makes it easier to see the fastest growing blade. Basically what I am saying is, the more differences you remove from an equation the more prominent each variable becomes.

    If there is no gear difference, its class choice. if its not class choice its augment choice. If its not augment choice its racial difference. If it's not racial difference, its weapon choice. We ultimately end up playing gray blobs that all deal 1 damage and every game will end in a tie. This cycles back into the initial statement of: This is an MMO gear should matter. If we have enough variables that players can use to their advantage and blur the line between skill, you allow people that probably wouldn't do arena to participate in it and you encourage arena players to get out and experience the open world.

    Something in my brain hurts when ive read your comments and its because 1. im dumb and 2. I dont think the class balancing matters in this discussion. The way they're balancing the game is fine and just because tanks suck in 1v1 or 3v3 arena it shouldnt matter. I think thats what the AoC dudes feel too. I wouldnt worry about my idea perverting that idea. I am just trying to think of ways for skill to matter the most but still allowing lots of variables for creativity however you build your character. Im thinking a power level soft cap system but im not feelin it 100% rn. Still gotta think more about it.

    So have all those variables but not making gear the op variable. Gear, class, augment, gear set bonuses, team comp synergy, race, weapon, skills. All the things you said

    Any immediate thoughts on that type of system? Like nono's. I value your perspective fellow berserk fan.
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  • AltodorAltodor Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Maezriel wrote: »
    I feel the "This is an MMO gear should matter," Is mostly people trying not to outright say "I want to smash the teeth in of those I vastly outgear regardless of my actual skill."

    You can still make "gear matter" in a way that @Altodor is suggesting by allowing players to build different sets. Just give equal access to everyone in the Arena so that a fight is dictated by knowledge and skill of your class and isn't just decided b/c someone no-life ground out a currency to buy a set that just 1-shots you.


    That said, I don't actually think I want Arena's to be a focus of the game. I'm all for it being a small side game, but I actually strongly dislike that there's already 1v1 and 3v3 options and a ladder b/c every game I've played that's tried to cater to both PvE and PvP play has spectacularly failed at it.

    At least in AoC there likely won't be a clear distinction between a PvE and PvP build due to there always being a present danger of encountering both, but as soon as you remove one from the equation degenerate metas form that force the devs to make changes that will affect the other side.

    Whatever helps you sleep at night.
    Back in 2005 I thought the same thing the OP is asking for.

    "What if gear didnt matter?! I'd show all these people my sKiLl. "

    And then I realize how stupid it is to want to compete for high stakes with people in L2 olympiad that had spent time and effort dealing with PvE challenges, PvP ambushes, territory control, crafting and organizing whole guilds, with my lazy no gear character that I didnt put the effort to get proper gear, but I was fvcking around all day.

    How about no? It's not us wanting to smash lower gear people, it's you having the nerve to demand that a part of the mmo genre goes out of the window because you delude yourselves thinking that you have more skill than others.

    Not gonna happen. Your only hope is if military node leader selection goes ahead with that champion system IS talked about earlier this year.


    I for one want to see people like a friend of mine beating higher geared people with his lower geared character
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=znekmHmfq2E

    Underlevelled, undergeared, and the higher lv dude cheated. My guy still won. One of the many suchs fights of a bygone pvp era.
    (And before anyone says sk was op in l2, there was a fight of my mate at 66 lv skbeating a 72 lv sk. Kav was the name.


    Git gud sons. Stop asking for benefits. Enough with the handholding everybody gets a trophy mmos.

    Yo I changed my mind about complete gear equalization. Now im thinking of a softcap system for power level. One that scales the higher you go up the ladder and stops after a while at a mid to high tier gear power level. Any thoughts on that I havent been able to think of any negatives.

    I always thought that a lot of people would still be interested in the open world enough for gear to matter still btw. Like the idea of gear equalization never made me think people would just camp arena and forget the open world. Partly because leveling takes a long ass time and getting max level is usually what you wanna do before arena and I am absolutely in love with the PvP with a purpose stuff like caravans and sieging. Also open world pking but just to grief.

    YEAH! Always thought there was a lot of reason and just because arena was equal stats doesnt mean I dont wanna do the things that actually are rewarding and provide progression.
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  • AltodorAltodor Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Btw personally I found it annoying that I could jump into BGs without gear in some mmos, and still fight.

    "Whats the point of gearing up..."
    Non stop I was thinking that.
    "Whats the point when everything is optional? What are the goals? RP pve?"

    I always thought that in AoC there were enough reasons to progress gear. Still think gear shouldnt be the deciding variable to an extent. Only in competitive settings like arena. Never thought arena is what people would consider endgame and stay in forever. I treat it as a side project to flex my rating to the boiz
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  • AltodorAltodor Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Maezriel wrote: »
    And this is why I don't think Arena should be anything more than a side game w/ no official ladder or rewards.

    I see both sides of the argument and right now these forums are full of old school masochists MMO players, but there's no guarantee that'll remain the norm as the game grows.

    There's a solid chance that as people play Arena's that it'll become a greater and greater focus...which leads to exactly what I said about the devs balancing one gamemode that's wholly separate from all the rest.

    If you want the world of Verra to be the primary content then there shouldn't be ladders and rewards for playing a mode that completely takes you outside of the world. Those rewards makes it far too tempting for people to want to no-life Arena's which'll cause them to want balance changes to the content they interact w/ the most.

    I agree the game should never be balanced around this small part of the game it should always be about the open world. Thats my favorite part of the game I just want the arena so I can be competitive.

    Ideal situation is that they stick to their values no matter what and never balance around any arena gamemode and all arena rewards are just for flex points or give negligible amounts of bonuses
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  • AltodorAltodor Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Damokles wrote: »
    Altodor wrote: »
    Tyrantor wrote: »
    Altodor wrote: »
    I think gear should not matter.

    Build Creativity
    1. Give us all base stats and points to allocate into these stats. This replaces gear and allows flexibility in character builds.
    2. Team Compositions
    3. Personal Skill Tree Point Allocation

    These are the only things that should matter in a ranked arena ladder. They allow for an equal playing field and enough creativity to have fun with different ideas.

    This is an MMO not a console fighter game. Gear should matter.

    I just feel like it shouldnt matter in a competitive setting like the arena where rewards dont matter anyways. Im thinking that the rest of the game is alluring enough to not keep you in there forever. I wanted the game to be like 40 60 arena - rest of game or maybe 30 70.

    You want 40-60 / 30-70 arena - EVERYTHING ELSE?!?

    tenor.gif

    Dude you must be dreaming :'D

    Lets say that the game will be 50-50 PvP-PvE (PvE in this case includes things like crafting, trading, dungeons, raids, worldbosses). I would say that of those 50% PvP around 15% would be arena content. The rest is open world, caravans, node sieges, castle sieges, guild wars, etc.

    Sheeeet man I didnt mean to say the whole world should be that way just the way I wanted to experience the game. Atleast if the whole combat system was mechanically challenging enough anyways. What you said is pretty accurate maybe even less for arena content.
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  • AltodorAltodor Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Im thinking about starting a new thread discussing a soft cap system for arena idk
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Altodor wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    This is all correct until you realize we are playing an MMORPG, making you wrong.
    Totally agree.

    Part of a build in any good MMO is the choices you make in regards to gear.

    In a game like WoW that has a very linear structure for gear, it is understandable that some players may look at gear as being how far along a specific progression path a character is and has no real say as to how good the player is.

    In good MMO's though, the gear you equip often says a lot about how good of a player you are. This is never more true than in an MMO with no class based item restrictions.

    Good players equip gear that either compliments their strengths, or covers over some of their weaknesses. As such, gear is as important a part of your build - and as important a part of the creativity of that build - as where you allocate skill points, what skills you opt for and what augments you place on them.

    Removing gear from the equation in arenas is stifling creativity in regards to builds, not encouraging it.

    Ive come to agree with this point. Ive been thinking of a power level softcap that scales as you increase in rating and stops at a certain rating at a mid to high tier power level.

    Keeps gear relevant - keeps people with similar power in the same rating area - protects da noobz

    Still dont know if Ashes is gonna have a power rating system like Item level and I am trying to design something around an imaginary power system. Looking at albion online they have a softcap on hellgates. I think GW1 had something like equal gear I still gotta look.

    Whatchu think about the softcap system
    I'm personally against any kind of rating system for players that is anything other than the sum of their actions (so combat trackers, KVD ratios and arena ladders are all fine by me, but gear score is not).

    I am also against any systems that are not immediately logical to new players. Needing to get to a specific level to participate in an arena is logical (though not a good solution), but needing to get to a certain power level is not logical.

    To me though, the main thing I have with arena suggestions are that we straight up don't know enough about the arena in Ashes to be able to make informed suggestions.

    If the arena is something that players can sign up for at any time and be ported to the arena itself when there is a match made, then as far as I am concerned, the arena should be as minimal as possible. It should just be a fight between the few players present, with minimal rewards, and that is it.

    On the other hand, if the arena is - say - a builting that a military node has to build once it is at city or metropolis level, which then allows players to enter that building and participate in a matchmaking process, then the arena itself can be somewhat more substantial, as it has become a gameplay element that players need to focus on in order to participate in, rather than a piece of side content.

    What I'd really like to see as an arena system for Ashes is that military nodes that hit the village stage automatically get an arena built - though at this stage it would be little more than a patch of dirt. Since the first mayor is "elected" a week or so after the node hits village stage, and the "election" in a military node is an arena fight, it makes sense to give military nodes arenas as they become village stage.

    From there, make it so the node can upgrade the arena at each additional node level, giving it three upgrades it can make (town level, city and metropolis). Make it so that each upgrade expands the scope of who can compete in that arena - with village nodes only open to citizens of the node, town level open to citizens of all nodes that are vassals of the same node as the military node in question, city level open to all citizens of the sever, and metropolis open to all citizens of all servers that have a metropolis level node.

    It could even be that a metropolis level node is so large, it can be flooded to allow for naval arenas.

    From there, you create a government position within militray nodes that controls the arena. Allow them to set up competitions with specific rulesets (which could include normalized gear, if they want). From there, players are able to elect whether to look for a match in this alternate ruleset arena, or look for one in a regular arena, all based on what ever level of arena they are participating form. These officials could even set up a specific layout of various objects within the arena.

    This suggestion would do a few things. The first thing it would do (in relation to this thread) is allow players to have a full on competition based around normalized gear - but it will do so in a way that doesn't interfere with the arena as a whole.

    Other than that, it would mean that arena afficionados now have a solid reason to care about what happens in the open world. They will need to level up a node and build the arena, all in the open world, and then they also need to be prepared to defend that node with their arena should it ever be sieged. If the node loses a siege, players obviously no longer have that same level of arena access that they had.

    This idea is not totally dissimilar to one that was on these forums not that long ago - but that suggestion has issues in relation to rewards and gambling, two things that didn't quite fit in with the rest of the game (much as an arena that will port you when a match is made doesn't fit with the rest of the game).

    To me, that is the best way to implement arenas in to Ashes, specifically. It may not work for all games, but it is the most fitting way I have been able to think of to implement them in to this game.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Altodor wrote: »
    Im thinking about starting a new thread discussing a soft cap system for arena idk
    Go for it. I think that’s more reasonable. And good on you for adjusting your ideas based on feedback. The community needs more people like you. :)
     
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  • AltodorAltodor Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Sov54 wrote: »
    Altodor wrote: »

    ...I wanted the game to be like 40 60 arena - rest of game or maybe 30 70.

    You probably got in the forum of the wrong game, at this point.

    I really hope I'm wrong and we can all enjoy AoC one day, but so far it looks like you should try to find a different game. So far, this is not the one you are looking for and will be disappointed with it.

    Yeah I dont think so. Open world is pog. Arena is pog. Wanna have both you know. I meant thats how I wanna play btw if there was confusion
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  • AltodorAltodor Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Noaani wrote: »
    Altodor wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    This is all correct until you realize we are playing an MMORPG, making you wrong.
    Totally agree.

    Part of a build in any good MMO is the choices you make in regards to gear.

    In a game like WoW that has a very linear structure for gear, it is understandable that some players may look at gear as being how far along a specific progression path a character is and has no real say as to how good the player is.

    In good MMO's though, the gear you equip often says a lot about how good of a player you are. This is never more true than in an MMO with no class based item restrictions.

    Good players equip gear that either compliments their strengths, or covers over some of their weaknesses. As such, gear is as important a part of your build - and as important a part of the creativity of that build - as where you allocate skill points, what skills you opt for and what augments you place on them.

    Removing gear from the equation in arenas is stifling creativity in regards to builds, not encouraging it.

    Ive come to agree with this point. Ive been thinking of a power level softcap that scales as you increase in rating and stops at a certain rating at a mid to high tier power level.

    Keeps gear relevant - keeps people with similar power in the same rating area - protects da noobz

    Still dont know if Ashes is gonna have a power rating system like Item level and I am trying to design something around an imaginary power system. Looking at albion online they have a softcap on hellgates. I think GW1 had something like equal gear I still gotta look.

    Whatchu think about the softcap system
    I'm personally against any kind of rating system for players that is anything other than the sum of their actions (so combat trackers, KVD ratios and arena ladders are all fine by me, but gear score is not).

    I am also against any systems that are not immediately logical to new players. Needing to get to a specific level to participate in an arena is logical (though not a good solution), but needing to get to a certain power level is not logical.

    To me though, the main thing I have with arena suggestions are that we straight up don't know enough about the arena in Ashes to be able to make informed suggestions.

    If the arena is something that players can sign up for at any time and be ported to the arena itself when there is a match made, then as far as I am concerned, the arena should be as minimal as possible. It should just be a fight between the few players present, with minimal rewards, and that is it.

    On the other hand, if the arena is - say - a builting that a military node has to build once it is at city or metropolis level, which then allows players to enter that building and participate in a matchmaking process, then the arena itself can be somewhat more substantial, as it has become a gameplay element that players need to focus on in order to participate in, rather than a piece of side content.

    What I'd really like to see as an arena system for Ashes is that military nodes that hit the village stage automatically get an arena built - though at this stage it would be little more than a patch of dirt. Since the first mayor is "elected" a week or so after the node hits village stage, and the "election" in a military node is an arena fight, it makes sense to give military nodes arenas as they become village stage.

    From there, make it so the node can upgrade the arena at each additional node level, giving it three upgrades it can make (town level, city and metropolis). Make it so that each upgrade expands the scope of who can compete in that arena - with village nodes only open to citizens of the node, town level open to citizens of all nodes that are vassals of the same node as the military node in question, city level open to all citizens of the sever, and metropolis open to all citizens of all servers that have a metropolis level node.

    It could even be that a metropolis level node is so large, it can be flooded to allow for naval arenas.

    From there, you create a government position within militray nodes that controls the arena. Allow them to set up competitions with specific rulesets (which could include normalized gear, if they want). From there, players are able to elect whether to look for a match in this alternate ruleset arena, or look for one in a regular arena, all based on what ever level of arena they are participating form. These officials could even set up a specific layout of various objects within the arena.

    This suggestion would do a few things. The first thing it would do (in relation to this thread) is allow players to have a full on competition based around normalized gear - but it will do so in a way that doesn't interfere with the arena as a whole.

    Other than that, it would mean that arena afficionados now have a solid reason to care about what happens in the open world. They will need to level up a node and build the arena, all in the open world, and then they also need to be prepared to defend that node with their arena should it ever be sieged. If the node loses a siege, players obviously no longer have that same level of arena access that they had.

    This idea is not totally dissimilar to one that was on these forums not that long ago - but that suggestion has issues in relation to rewards and gambling, two things that didn't quite fit in with the rest of the game (much as an arena that will port you when a match is made doesn't fit with the rest of the game).

    To me, that is the best way to implement arenas in to Ashes, specifically. It may not work for all games, but it is the most fitting way I have been able to think of to implement them in to this game.

    I agree that gear score trackers are not good and I dont think that it aligns with intrepid believes on how power should be measured. Maybe a total stat counter and be limited after a certain point.

    I dont agree that arena should be implemented only through the military nodes. It should be accessible from any node and be an instanced area.

    Also id like to mention that anyone can join arena with the system I was thinking of there are just soft caps after a certain power level.

    I like your whole idea on top of an any-node arena que up system maybe. But not without it. Probably lead to arena not being played by people who arent obsessed with arena. I dont think I want that.

    I dont think any arena fans care about bigger arenas either. Just all team formats + any maps available.

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  • AltodorAltodor Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Atama wrote: »
    Altodor wrote: »
    Im thinking about starting a new thread discussing a soft cap system for arena idk
    Go for it. I think that’s more reasonable. And good on you for adjusting your ideas based on feedback. The community needs more people like you. :)

    The world needs more open minded people TBH. Thanks
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