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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
You can still make "gear matter" in a way that @Altodor is suggesting by allowing players to build different sets. Just give equal access to everyone in the Arena so that a fight is dictated by knowledge and skill of your class and isn't just decided b/c someone no-life ground out a currency to buy a set that just 1-shots you.
That said, I don't actually think I want Arena's to be a focus of the game. I'm all for it being a small side game, but I actually strongly dislike that there's already 1v1 and 3v3 options and a ladder b/c every game I've played that's tried to cater to both PvE and PvP play has spectacularly failed at it.
At least in AoC there likely won't be a clear distinction between a PvE and PvP build due to there always being a present danger of encountering both, but as soon as you remove one from the equation degenerate metas form that force the devs to make changes that will affect the other side.
You hit the nail on the head. This is the reason why we say "This is an MMO gear should matter". Its the short version of what you just said. We do not want them to feel like they need to balance around arenas because all of a sudden some classes are base-line better than others due to no gap in gear. If a patch of grass is cut, it makes it easier to see the fastest growing blade. Basically what I am saying is, the more differences you remove from an equation the more prominent each variable becomes.
If there is no gear difference, its class choice. if its not class choice its augment choice. If its not augment choice its racial difference. If it's not racial difference, its weapon choice. We ultimately end up playing gray blobs that all deal 1 damage and every game will end in a tie. This cycles back into the initial statement of: This is an MMO gear should matter. If we have enough variables that players can use to their advantage and blur the line between skill, you allow people that probably wouldn't do arena to participate in it and you encourage arena players to get out and experience the open world.
Whatever helps you sleep at night.
Back in 2005 I thought the same thing the OP is asking for.
"What if gear didnt matter?! I'd show all these people my sKiLl. "
And then I realize how stupid it is to want to compete for high stakes with people in L2 olympiad that had spent time and effort dealing with PvE challenges, PvP ambushes, territory control, crafting and organizing whole guilds, with my lazy no gear character that I didnt put the effort to get proper gear, but I was fvcking around all day.
How about no? It's not us wanting to smash lower gear people, it's you having the nerve to demand that a part of the mmo genre goes out of the window because you delude yourselves thinking that you have more skill than others.
Not gonna happen. Your only hope is if military node leader selection goes ahead with that champion system IS talked about earlier this year.
I for one want to see people like a friend of mine beating higher geared people with his lower geared character
Underlevelled, undergeared, and the higher lv dude cheated. My guy still won. One of the many suchs fights of a bygone pvp era.
(And before anyone says sk was op in l2, there was a fight of my mate at 66 lv skbeating a 72 lv sk. Kav was the name.
Git gud sons. Stop asking for benefits. Enough with the handholding everybody gets a trophy mmos.
I won't have the time to tryhard this time, but still support the "Gear should matter" argument.
As @Sathrago said, I still prefer to get stomped by a not PVP-optimized guy who has put the time and effort in the open world to grow his character, than by a min/maxer cookie-cutter-spec exploiter that wants to PWN NOOBZ with no effort put in the open world.
"Whats the point of gearing up..."
Non stop I was thinking that.
"Whats the point when everything is optional? What are the goals? RP pve?"
I see both sides of the argument and right now these forums are full of old school masochists MMO players, but there's no guarantee that'll remain the norm as the game grows.
There's a solid chance that as people play Arena's that it'll become a greater and greater focus...which leads to exactly what I said about the devs balancing one gamemode that's wholly separate from all the rest.
If you want the world of Verra to be the primary content then there shouldn't be ladders and rewards for playing a mode that completely takes you outside of the world. Those rewards makes it far too tempting for people to want to no-life Arena's which'll cause them to want balance changes to the content they interact w/ the most.
you got it. There shouldn't be an instanced arena in the first place.
Yeah that makes sense. Really good system if you ask me
Hey Warth. Everyone you said makes sense to me thanks for writing.
Now im more inclined to think about people joining the game and just doing arena hurting the open world which is really what this game is all about. But I would still like arena to be a competitive place for team vs team content and not reflect gear score. I dont care as much about my point since I rather have the rest of the PvP have more players in them.
So maybe a solution would be making arena only for max level. You could experience most of the game through the long leveling process and if that doesnt filter out people who only want arena I dont know what will. The vision is 225 hours to reach max level.
Also I have thought about these points but I thought that the open world PvP would be engaging enough to want to earn gear and do better. Caravan PvP seems like a good money maker and popular amongst players and the sieging stuff is so fun to think about I would really like to gear for that stuff.
I wanna have my cake and eat it too. PvP with a purpose and PvP in a competitive setting. Maybe theres a way to achieve that I havent though about a perfect idea
I just feel like it shouldnt matter in a competitive setting like the arena where rewards dont matter anyways. Im thinking that the rest of the game is alluring enough to not keep you in there forever. I wanted the game to be like 40 60 arena - rest of game or maybe 30 70.
Im just out here trying to convince peeps yo
Yeah I want it to be a small side of the game too. Just a fair one. I was just thinking about a system (well a friend thought of it) where gear does matter. It involves soft capping stats the further you progress up the ladder. So its like 100 rating will limit your power. 200 rating would increase your power softcap so more of your gear matters.
So like people still go out to get the gear they need for their builds. But gear does roflstomp lower rating people yatayata. Gear still matters but only as you progress the ladder I suppose. Idk I still need to think about this its not perfect
You want 40-60 / 30-70 arena - EVERYTHING ELSE?!?
Dude you must be dreaming :'D
Lets say that the game will be 50-50 PvP-PvE (PvE in this case includes things like crafting, trading, dungeons, raids, worldbosses). I would say that of those 50% PvP around 15% would be arena content. The rest is open world, caravans, node sieges, castle sieges, guild wars, etc.
Equalized gear tends to appeal to competitve PvPers. Ashes is trying to appeal to PvPers.
You probably got in the forum of the wrong game, at this point.
I really hope I'm wrong and we can all enjoy AoC one day, but so far it looks like you should try to find a different game. So far, this is not the one you are looking for and will be disappointed with it.
@Ravudha Hey so the reason I thought about why I dont like that idea is because I see arena as a place to compete through skill. But the point that the open world needs to be the main focus of the game is way more important. So I figured maybe a power level softcap is a good option. Maybe as the higher rating you climb the softcap actually increases. Might keep the gigachads of our game from shitting on low rating noobs but also keeping gear relevant.
If that system existed id like the softcap to increase to a certain point. Maybe where the mid-tier to high-tier gear power lands. People still grind and make a goal of reaching the softcap. Then anything extra will probably not be the deciding factor in a fight but it will matter to an extent
That idea is kinda where im thinking since I changed my mind about gear equalization
Ive come to agree with this point. Ive been thinking of a power level softcap that scales as you increase in rating and stops at a certain rating at a mid to high tier power level.
Keeps gear relevant - keeps people with similar power in the same rating area - protects da noobz
Still dont know if Ashes is gonna have a power rating system like Item level and I am trying to design something around an imaginary power system. Looking at albion online they have a softcap on hellgates. I think GW1 had something like equal gear I still gotta look.
Whatchu think about the softcap system
You are literally everywhere my dude
Idk if I should consider this offtopic or whatever I am new to being a forum goblin but when I read the cater to both PvE and PvP message it made me think of how most games that such juggling both is because they are balancing both sides.
Since the AoC dudes want to balance around group content im not worried about that unless they change their minds. Yeah.
Something in my brain hurts when ive read your comments and its because 1. im dumb and 2. I dont think the class balancing matters in this discussion. The way they're balancing the game is fine and just because tanks suck in 1v1 or 3v3 arena it shouldnt matter. I think thats what the AoC dudes feel too. I wouldnt worry about my idea perverting that idea. I am just trying to think of ways for skill to matter the most but still allowing lots of variables for creativity however you build your character. Im thinking a power level soft cap system but im not feelin it 100% rn. Still gotta think more about it.
So have all those variables but not making gear the op variable. Gear, class, augment, gear set bonuses, team comp synergy, race, weapon, skills. All the things you said
Any immediate thoughts on that type of system? Like nono's. I value your perspective fellow berserk fan.
Yo I changed my mind about complete gear equalization. Now im thinking of a softcap system for power level. One that scales the higher you go up the ladder and stops after a while at a mid to high tier gear power level. Any thoughts on that I havent been able to think of any negatives.
I always thought that a lot of people would still be interested in the open world enough for gear to matter still btw. Like the idea of gear equalization never made me think people would just camp arena and forget the open world. Partly because leveling takes a long ass time and getting max level is usually what you wanna do before arena and I am absolutely in love with the PvP with a purpose stuff like caravans and sieging. Also open world pking but just to grief.
YEAH! Always thought there was a lot of reason and just because arena was equal stats doesnt mean I dont wanna do the things that actually are rewarding and provide progression.
I always thought that in AoC there were enough reasons to progress gear. Still think gear shouldnt be the deciding variable to an extent. Only in competitive settings like arena. Never thought arena is what people would consider endgame and stay in forever. I treat it as a side project to flex my rating to the boiz
I agree the game should never be balanced around this small part of the game it should always be about the open world. Thats my favorite part of the game I just want the arena so I can be competitive.
Ideal situation is that they stick to their values no matter what and never balance around any arena gamemode and all arena rewards are just for flex points or give negligible amounts of bonuses
Sheeeet man I didnt mean to say the whole world should be that way just the way I wanted to experience the game. Atleast if the whole combat system was mechanically challenging enough anyways. What you said is pretty accurate maybe even less for arena content.
I am also against any systems that are not immediately logical to new players. Needing to get to a specific level to participate in an arena is logical (though not a good solution), but needing to get to a certain power level is not logical.
To me though, the main thing I have with arena suggestions are that we straight up don't know enough about the arena in Ashes to be able to make informed suggestions.
If the arena is something that players can sign up for at any time and be ported to the arena itself when there is a match made, then as far as I am concerned, the arena should be as minimal as possible. It should just be a fight between the few players present, with minimal rewards, and that is it.
On the other hand, if the arena is - say - a builting that a military node has to build once it is at city or metropolis level, which then allows players to enter that building and participate in a matchmaking process, then the arena itself can be somewhat more substantial, as it has become a gameplay element that players need to focus on in order to participate in, rather than a piece of side content.
What I'd really like to see as an arena system for Ashes is that military nodes that hit the village stage automatically get an arena built - though at this stage it would be little more than a patch of dirt. Since the first mayor is "elected" a week or so after the node hits village stage, and the "election" in a military node is an arena fight, it makes sense to give military nodes arenas as they become village stage.
From there, make it so the node can upgrade the arena at each additional node level, giving it three upgrades it can make (town level, city and metropolis). Make it so that each upgrade expands the scope of who can compete in that arena - with village nodes only open to citizens of the node, town level open to citizens of all nodes that are vassals of the same node as the military node in question, city level open to all citizens of the sever, and metropolis open to all citizens of all servers that have a metropolis level node.
It could even be that a metropolis level node is so large, it can be flooded to allow for naval arenas.
From there, you create a government position within militray nodes that controls the arena. Allow them to set up competitions with specific rulesets (which could include normalized gear, if they want). From there, players are able to elect whether to look for a match in this alternate ruleset arena, or look for one in a regular arena, all based on what ever level of arena they are participating form. These officials could even set up a specific layout of various objects within the arena.
This suggestion would do a few things. The first thing it would do (in relation to this thread) is allow players to have a full on competition based around normalized gear - but it will do so in a way that doesn't interfere with the arena as a whole.
Other than that, it would mean that arena afficionados now have a solid reason to care about what happens in the open world. They will need to level up a node and build the arena, all in the open world, and then they also need to be prepared to defend that node with their arena should it ever be sieged. If the node loses a siege, players obviously no longer have that same level of arena access that they had.
This idea is not totally dissimilar to one that was on these forums not that long ago - but that suggestion has issues in relation to rewards and gambling, two things that didn't quite fit in with the rest of the game (much as an arena that will port you when a match is made doesn't fit with the rest of the game).
To me, that is the best way to implement arenas in to Ashes, specifically. It may not work for all games, but it is the most fitting way I have been able to think of to implement them in to this game.
Yeah I dont think so. Open world is pog. Arena is pog. Wanna have both you know. I meant thats how I wanna play btw if there was confusion
I agree that gear score trackers are not good and I dont think that it aligns with intrepid believes on how power should be measured. Maybe a total stat counter and be limited after a certain point.
I dont agree that arena should be implemented only through the military nodes. It should be accessible from any node and be an instanced area.
Also id like to mention that anyone can join arena with the system I was thinking of there are just soft caps after a certain power level.
I like your whole idea on top of an any-node arena que up system maybe. But not without it. Probably lead to arena not being played by people who arent obsessed with arena. I dont think I want that.
I dont think any arena fans care about bigger arenas either. Just all team formats + any maps available.
The world needs more open minded people TBH. Thanks