Arena and a Scaling Soft Cap on Gear Power Level System

My power level is over 9000. There its been said now you cant say it.

Hello I want gear equalization in arena but I realized that the open world should be the focus and gear equalization, even though imo its not too big of a deal, will rip some people away from the open world (the important part of the game).

So my goals for this system are
1. Not have gear be the most important variable in a rated arena fight
2. Keep gear relevant in arena fights
3. Protect the noobz from getting overwhelmed by the gear variable. Thats right only the gear variable. Not anything else.

I am by no means saying the core game should be balanced around arena encounters btw. It really shouldnt. If arenas awesome great. Should it be the focus? I think we all know it sure as hell shouldnt be.

Quick note that Steven said gear should make up 40-50% of overall power level. Which just makes me think 2 naked guys can destroy a 1 geared guy. So honestly im inclined to think gear kinda doesnt matter anyways and what matters is what type of gear you put on. Better stat allocation will always net better results. But hey ill throw this idea out here anyways.

So this is how I think arena should work

Once you reach level 50 (projected to be 225 hours of leveling as of this moment) you will be eligible to enter arena.

You will more than likely get into arena with pretty basic or atleast pretty decent level 50 gear. Giving you a power level sort of on the low tier end in terms of gear. Now in these low ratings there is a soft cap on anything above power level 100 (random number for power measuring). Giving you lets say 50% power level reduction on anything past this point. This prevents the gear variable from being super relevant in the low ratings of arena.

Now as you progress up the ladder the power level increases. Lets say after getting higher rating power level 200 is now the soft cap and anything past is reduced by 50%. Making you a bit undergeared for your rating. You go out into the world and gear more. Maybe until you hit the soft cap so that you can continue to compete at a semi optimal level.

I hope we all get the process im gonna skip some points and get the end of the soft cap.

So you reach a pretty high rating and the soft cap now becomes static. As in lets say 500 power level and no matter how much higher you go in the rating it will always be 500 power level soft cap. Anything past this power level will result in a 50% reduction in your power level over 500 power level. So if I was power level 600 then at that higher rating I would actually have 550 power level in the arena.

I dont want to go over balancing these are just examples to help paint a picture.

Since its confusing there could be a quest to help understand it or a helpful ui to show soft caps in the arena tabs I guess.

Also this is the game for me I just want the arena to be more balanced if gear was variable that really turned the tides in battle. So its still relevant in the equation

To sum this up on the positives side of things - It protects noobs and maybe mid tier players - Gear matters but there is a diminishing return on it

Edit: Someone made me think it was a good idea to put here that this would only be for ranked arena - I wrote this at 7:44PM EST November 5th 2020

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Numlock

Not Too versed on the PVP
side of ashes atm trying to get educated, coming from the BS that is WOW PVP
i think your looking at gear Bracketing in Parallel to ranking?
So at "X" rank you get a reduction to the Diminishing return on stats gear gives?

it could be good on paper for sure but time to acquire Gear could affect the rankings if certain pieces of gear outweigh the diminishing returns of stat stacking.( WoW fire mage mastery stacking + tank Verse Stacking)

I agree that making gear be important is essential, and making the game keep away from "Arena balancing"
Skill is king in PVP if Big plays can be essentially Negated by a gear disparity in a match then its just super dissapointing.

an example i could use is the Drest trinket in WoW PVP being so Needed, or the PVE trinkets being imbalanced in PVP cos they wherent designed with that in mind.

Altodor

@Numlock
The power level system could be read through the total amount of stats you have.

Im having a hard time thinking about how this could effect on use trinkets. Especially if it gave you lighting flat damage on your attacks as an example. Kinda hard to think about that especially when I dont understand how jewelry will work in AoC.

TBH Id discuss that later I still think it has a solution and that the soft cap system should work well

Edit - Im a failure at life
Edit -

bloodprophet

Thought this was a thread already?

Sathrago

@Numlock the issue of pve gear being too good in pvp isn't going to be a thing as there is no pve or pvp gear. It is all just gear.

Now as for the ideas from @Altodor, these are very similar to the hell gate system and arena system of Albion online. Which is actually a good thing.

My only concern is how you will be able to do the ranking/scaling system when normally players of different ranks end up fighting each other. Or do you think that players should only fight those within their tier of soft cap/rating?

rikardp98

I don't actually see the point of having a pvp arena scaling system? Why do you want this? What is the reason behind all this?

About your goals:
1. As mentioned in your other thread about equalizing gear, gear will and should always matter in a mmoRPG, a role playing game. If that doesn't appeal to you then this might not be your genre.
2. This will still be the case without a pvp scaling system.
3. "Noobz" will get crushed either way, if gear mattered or not. If they like the game they will continue to play and learn the game, and one day they will no longer be "noobz". A new player getting crushed or seeing someone else getting totally destroyed will encourage them to get better, having someone to look up to.

Again, why do you want a system like this? Give me the reason and not the idea behind the solution.

Vhaeyne

Just play a fighting game or MOBA if you want equalized PvP. I don't want equalized anything in a MMORPG.
I want to retain the full value of my gear across all content.
Realize that we are all equalized in our equal ability to obtain gear.
If the world is not equalized, why would the arena?

Remember this is a open world PvP game. What makes the arena more equalized is that you have a set team size and you all start at full health/mana. That already is way more competitive than the world.

rikardp98

I totally agree with Vhaeyne, arena is just a small team fight where you and some mates can do pvp on a small scale.

Usually open world pvp comes down to numbers or taking someone by surprise. In arena you are up against full health/Mana (as mentioned by Vhaeyne) player that knows you are coming.

If you lose then that means your opponents knows more about the overall game. What gear to use, what abilities to press, and where to spend your talent points. And that also means you have alot more room to grow both in skills and knowledge.

mmorpgs, role playing games, is about pure skills but also about the overall knowledge about the game, and mmorpg tend to be pretty big games. That also means that you can not "master" a mmorpg by playing it 1-3 hours a week, you need to spend time ingame with your friends and the community alot, but also IRL by doing some research and what not to really become the best.

Sathrago

idk guys I think a soft cap could be useful. it lowers the power gap between players to make it more about skill but does not remove the advantage of better gear. This is a middle ground that I find works for both mindsets.

rikardp98

Sathrago wrote: »

idk guys I think a soft cap could be useful. it lowers the power gap between players to make it more about skill but does not remove the advantage of better gear. This is a middle ground that I find works for both mindsets.

But the question is, why do we need a soft cap? What is the reason you want to remove a power cap?

When it comes to ranked arena, the best players with the most skill and best gear will be the toped rank players. Meaning that high powered players will queue up against each other.

So why? @Sathrago

Sathrago

rikardp98 wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

idk guys I think a soft cap could be useful. it lowers the power gap between players to make it more about skill but does not remove the advantage of better gear. This is a middle ground that I find works for both mindsets.

But the question is, why do we need a soft cap? What is the reason you want to remove a power cap?

When it comes to ranked arena, the best players with the most skill and best gear will be the toped rank players. Meaning that high powered players will queue up against each other.

So why? @Sathrago

It allows more players the ability to participate. That's pretty much the only reason. Some people can't farm for hours for bis gear, so maybe they can hop on and do a bit of arena without feeling like it's completely hopeless due to gear?

I do want to clarify my own position on this though, I don't care if there is an item power soft cap, and given a choice I would do without it. However if they decided to do something like that I could completely understand why.

Warth

I have to agree with rikard here.

The suggestion literally doesn't matter for anybody but the top echleon of players as lower players below that will simply get matched against either

Similarly geared and similarly skilled players
worse geared but more skilled players
better geared but less skilled player

In the end, they'd always just meet players, that should give them a somewhat interesting challenge. People that "overwhelm noobs" with their gear will climb soon enough and meet similarily geared people.
Those who want to be at the very top however should be expected to go for the gear grind to be at the very top. This is despite pointing out the obvious flaws of this system.

A: downscaling of gear/strength hasn't worked in a single game in existance. You are either significantly stronger or significantly weaker than real low leveled / real low geared players.

B: The static tier system sucks for everybody transitioning tiers without being overgeared in the first place.
Let's assume you have the following tiers:

Wood - up to 600 ELO -> gear max power level of 100
Iron - up to 900 ELO -> gear max power level of 150
Bronze - up to 1200 ELO -> gear max power level of 200
Silver - up to 1500 ELO -> gear max power level of 250
Gold - up to 1800 Elo -> gear max power level of 300
Platinum - up to 2100 ELO -> gear max power level of 350
Diamond - up to 2400 ELO -> unlimited gear power level

Now, what will happen is, that the so called "noobs" will face a significant hurdle the moment they go from 1200 to 1201. The moment they go beyond that point, while having insufficient gear to back it up, they will be at a natural disadvantage. Which leads to those players not wanting to progress past the point of 1200. Players, that would be far better in terms of skill dump their ELO to stay at a point where they are not at an disadvantage, which will results in another bad experience for the players that belong in this tier.

The problems are smurfs, that dump their ELO on purpose to "stomp some noobs". Soft or hardcapping gear doesn't stop that at all. Disincentivize smurfing is what they should be aiming to do, not limit the influence of gear, which will result in the exact opposite.

Quick note that Steven said gear should make up 40-50% of overall power level. Which just makes me think 2 naked guys can destroy a 1 geared guy.

Also, this is a false equivalency. Gear and your Build are multiplicative, not additive. They feed off each other.

Warth

Sathrago wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

idk guys I think a soft cap could be useful. it lowers the power gap between players to make it more about skill but does not remove the advantage of better gear. This is a middle ground that I find works for both mindsets.

But the question is, why do we need a soft cap? What is the reason you want to remove a power cap?

When it comes to ranked arena, the best players with the most skill and best gear will be the toped rank players. Meaning that high powered players will queue up against each other.

So why? @Sathrago

It allows more players the ability to participate. That's pretty much the only reason. Some people can't farm for hours for bis gear, so maybe they can hop on and do a bit of arena without feeling like it's completely hopeless due to gear?

I do want to clarify my own position on this though, I don't care if there is an item power soft cap, and given a choice I would do without it. However if they decided to do something like that I could completely understand why.

That's what the ranking system is for. To be matched against players of equivalent strength. They can jump in whenever they want and face people on a similar power level than them. Whether this is through gear or skill doesn't matter.

Sathrago

Warth wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

idk guys I think a soft cap could be useful. it lowers the power gap between players to make it more about skill but does not remove the advantage of better gear. This is a middle ground that I find works for both mindsets.

But the question is, why do we need a soft cap? What is the reason you want to remove a power cap?

When it comes to ranked arena, the best players with the most skill and best gear will be the toped rank players. Meaning that high powered players will queue up against each other.

So why? @Sathrago

It allows more players the ability to participate. That's pretty much the only reason. Some people can't farm for hours for bis gear, so maybe they can hop on and do a bit of arena without feeling like it's completely hopeless due to gear?

I do want to clarify my own position on this though, I don't care if there is an item power soft cap, and given a choice I would do without it. However if they decided to do something like that I could completely understand why.

That's what the ranking system is for. To be matched against players of equivalent strength. They can jump in whenever they want and face people on a similar power level than them. Whether this is through gear or skill doesn't matter.

Right I get that. It's honestly more about preference. One side wants a more organic arena and the other wants a more structured one. Im for organic personally.

rikardp98

@Sathrago can you expand on "organic arena"? And why you want it.

Sathrago

rikardp98 wrote: »

@Sathrago can you expand on "organic arena"? And why you want it.

Organic meaning an mmo with arena in it that doesnt limit gear. Essentially the current arena system. I wanna go no life the game for hours on end and then slap the crap out of some dudes in arena with my Xxdragonslayer weapon and shiny unique augments from like religion or whatever.

rikardp98

Sathrago wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

@Sathrago can you expand on "organic arena"? And why you want it.

Organic meaning an mmo with arena in it that doesnt limit gear. Essentially the current arena system. I wanna go no life the game for hours on end and then slap the crap out of some dudes in arena with my Xxdragonslayer weapon. and shiny unique augments from like religion or whatever.

Oh sorry, I thought you was against what you called organic and was for the soft cap and equalizing gear.
Sorry I misunderstood xD

I feel the same, organic arena is the best option for a mmorpg where the focus is on the whole character.

Sathrago

rikardp98 wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

@Sathrago can you expand on "organic arena"? And why you want it.

Organic meaning an mmo with arena in it that doesnt limit gear. Essentially the current arena system. I wanna go no life the game for hours on end and then slap the crap out of some dudes in arena with my Xxdragonslayer weapon. and shiny unique augments from like religion or whatever.

Oh sorry, I thought you was against what you called organic and was for the soft cap and equalizing gear.
Sorry I misunderstood xD

I feel the same, organic arena is the best option for a mmorpg where the focus is on the whole character.

I was attempting to give a reason for the soft cap as I felt it made sense if the goal was to allow more players to join in. All good brah.

Blackhearted

I think equalized arenas would be great as they focus solely on skill. Every other PvP system will be gear relevant so why not leave one for players to test who are the best. Tera had equalized PvP system and I found a lot of enjoyment there.
A system like that would also allow new players practise for ow pvp.

Numlock

rikardp98 wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

idk guys I think a soft cap could be useful. it lowers the power gap between players to make it more about skill but does not remove the advantage of better gear. This is a middle ground that I find works for both mindsets.

But the question is, why do we need a soft cap? What is the reason you want to remove a power cap?

When it comes to ranked arena, the best players with the most skill and best gear will be the toped rank players. Meaning that high powered players will queue up against each other.

So why? @Sathrago

I agree with @Sathrago in the sense that an even playing field in Arena where an enemy is in the same boat as you but is only seperated by skill level would far outlast a system where any Random Joe with Good RNG on any given week could waffle stomp anyone in their path because of a stat disparity

Reducing the Power gap to a reasonable level Not removing it entirely i think is the essence of the conversation here

@Blackhearted - i wouldnt say necessarily "practice for OW" i think Duels or even Unranked PVP for that.
when it comes to ranked, Id want to be sweaty and go for the big W everytime and earn the potential reward for the effort put in to Learn classes, counterplay, mechanics, movement
Pro's cons for certain class/builds

there is time put in to learning what the potential Meta would be and how to break it THATS where the skill in Ranked Arena is in my LIMITED Opinion

to tie back to @Altodor's original post

WPVP should be the driving force its more engaging on a wider scale (and makes for great content
Southshore V Tarren Mill BOYS!) Pvp shouldnt be balanced around Arena. But there should be a defined ranking to stop people who on any given week can change their pvp fate by 1-2 pieces of gear

Im all for stomping noobs, but only when it comes down to the gameplay decisions i made on the fly
Not because i Pulled out the Sword of a thousand Truths and essentially 1 Shot a team
south-park-s10e08c07-the-sword-of-a-thousand-truths-4x3.jpg?width=50%&height=50%&quality=0.8

south-park-s10e08c07-the-sword-of-a-thousand-truths-4x3.jpg?width=50%&height=50%&quality=0.8

rikardp98

@Numlock how would you feel if you farm for gear for hours and hours, maybe even months to get the right gear setup. Then you do open world pvp and large scale pvp where you crushes your opponents, not only because of your gear but also because of your knowledge of the game. Then you queue for a ranked arena (first time) and your gear stats or what ever are scaled down by 50%, and the other dude that have worst gear than you and have only played for a few days do more damage than you. That's what pvp scaling does and it doesn't feel good as a player.

I'm all for ranked arena where high ranked player fight against each other, I do not see why a soft cap to gear is a necessary though.

A skilled player will play the game and earn gear "passively" and will be able to rank in areana.

A new player will play ranked arena and get smashed either way, with a soft cap or not.

Is there reason behind the soft cap that you only want to do arena and nothing else or what is it? I have only heard ideas or suggestions to solve those ideas, but I haven't heard the reason behind the idea that you don't want a power gap.

If you say "RNG" then fine, but at this point we don't know anything about how the gearing system will work so at that point it's only ideas based on speculation based on precious experience in a different game.

From my point of view I hear people wanting pvp scaling because they are tried if getting smashed by better player which they blame on "random" gear drops and not skill at all.

Child Item