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Arena and a Scaling Soft Cap on Gear Power Level System

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Comments

  • @Altodor how can you try different setups with out grinding? If you want a gear set they you have to go for it = grinding. Maybe it's a boss, maybe from wpvp or what ever. It's all about playing the game to get stronger, and if you play the game you will get skill and better gear.
    Gear isn't equal to skill, however skill will lead to gear. So the soft cap system is just a system to make things more complicated and from my point of view unnecessary.

    In a mmoRPG, a role playing game, you can come very far with only skill, but you also need gear since it's a part of your character. So if a high geared player enters the arena for the first time he may climb the rankes faster than a lower geard player, and to me that's fine. The rankes in a mmoRPG is all about the character AND NOT the player behind the screen.
  • ThePhilosophileThePhilosophile Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited November 2020
    I think a Practice arena system, where players can choose potential gear loadouts, could be very cool.
    A practice arena system would have the following pros:
    1. Allows players to see what gear they should be chasing based on their individual playstyle.
    2. Allows players to develop strategies that they can use in ranked PVP without the penalty to ELO
    3. Can be used as a stress reliever due and a reminder of what players are grinding for.
    4. addresses the power gap problem, without actually affecting ranked PVP where all aspects of player skill should be taken into account. Don't want to get stomped in ranked PVP by players who have time to grind? then pick a build in the Practice arena system and play some matches there.
    5. Allows Hardcore PVPers to theory craft optimal builds.
    6. the Practice Arena system can be used for Official AOC tournaments similar to WoW's tournament realms.

    Thoughts on if this suggestion helps alleviate some problems?
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    There is one MAJOR problem with this idea...

    In order to have any kind of meaningful cap or ranking system, gear has to be assigned a power level. Or a "gear score". And you know how the developers feel about gear scores, and DPS meters, and so on.

    Without any way to objectively measure one piece of gear from another, I don't see how you can rank gear.
     
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  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Altodor wrote: »
    So the point isnt to equalize gear its to give a diminishing return on it depending on rating. To help it not become a huge variable over things that actually matter in a competitive setting. Other variables like skill and team comp. Stuff like that.

    That makes sense from a role play perspective. Its just that the roleplay perspective doesnt change my mind when it comes to this sectioned off competitive very small part of the game. I rather think more about what is more enjoyable gameplay wise than keeping the integrity of the game here. I still do feel you though for sure. It really wouldnt make sense to not keep your power everywhere.

    Maybe cast a arcane magic limiter on you so you cant unleash your full power and destroy the world ja know

    I would not have a problem if intrepid took your side of the argument. It's not the end of the world to me.

    I must say that in addition to my previous post. There is a strong economic counter argument to be made against you. Unrestricted gear means that the arena will be subject to the gearing system of the rest of the game. This means that over enchanting is a big deal for the arena now. I did not get to participate in the Olympiad in L2 myself. I have fond memories of our clan pumping resources in weekly to get one more + on some over enchanted s-grade for our arena guy. He had a set of gear that was a clan effort to make. The magnum opus of our clan that kept his name at the top. We had our whole clan working to gather not only to provide gear for each other, but to take a percentage of the resources to try and get more over enchanted gear. This makes it so that clans are more likely to try and over enchant some gear for arena wins. This means that more materials across all nodes are selling. It is a way that the arena system can benefit the economy. People are going to be enchanting their gear to a certain degree for real world PvE and PVP, but the uncapped arena would give clans a reason to invest heavily into gear.

    I don't think the speculative system I just described is exactly fair or perfect for potential arena players, but I do think it is better for entire servers if it makes it so that more clans are willing to try and over enchant to the limits of statistics.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • AltodorAltodor Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Warth wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    idk guys I think a soft cap could be useful. it lowers the power gap between players to make it more about skill but does not remove the advantage of better gear. This is a middle ground that I find works for both mindsets.

    But the question is, why do we need a soft cap? What is the reason you want to remove a power cap?

    When it comes to ranked arena, the best players with the most skill and best gear will be the toped rank players. Meaning that high powered players will queue up against each other.

    So why? @Sathrago

    It allows more players the ability to participate. That's pretty much the only reason. Some people can't farm for hours for bis gear, so maybe they can hop on and do a bit of arena without feeling like it's completely hopeless due to gear?

    I do want to clarify my own position on this though, I don't care if there is an item power soft cap, and given a choice I would do without it. However if they decided to do something like that I could completely understand why.

    That's what the ranking system is for. To be matched against players of equivalent strength. They can jump in whenever they want and face people on a similar power level than them. Whether this is through gear or skill doesn't matter.

    Id say the ranking system should show how good you are and to a lesser degree how geared you are. I guess at some point I selfishly want a player to reach a high point in their gear progression and not have to worry about getting the last 10% of their power that might take just as long to get to as getting the other 90%
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  • AltodorAltodor Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think equalized arenas would be great as they focus solely on skill. Every other PvP system will be gear relevant so why not leave one for players to test who are the best. Tera had equalized PvP system and I found a lot of enjoyment there.
    A system like that would also allow new players practise for ow pvp.

    I used to agree with you since I thought the 200+ hour grind was enough to root out players who wanna no life arena only. Kinda want the open world to matter too for those players. But not to the point where they wanna spend most of their time in the arena but actually spend most of their time grinding.

    Kinda like old school runescape. Took me 1000 hours to get where I wanted to get. Doing raids 1 and 2. Now PvP in the wilderness. Was like 80% shitty grinds that I was bored in. Wanting to quit. Im ranting but thats just another point of the soft cap system. OSRS introduced LMS a pvp minigame where even level 1 free to play people can join and have equalized gear and stats. The rewards basically dont mean anything and it doesnt kill the game or anything. Its not a huge open world caravan trading castle/node sieging game though.
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  • AltodorAltodor Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Numlock wrote: »
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    idk guys I think a soft cap could be useful. it lowers the power gap between players to make it more about skill but does not remove the advantage of better gear. This is a middle ground that I find works for both mindsets.

    But the question is, why do we need a soft cap? What is the reason you want to remove a power cap?

    When it comes to ranked arena, the best players with the most skill and best gear will be the toped rank players. Meaning that high powered players will queue up against each other.

    So why? @Sathrago

    I agree with @Sathrago in the sense that an even playing field in Arena where an enemy is in the same boat as you but is only seperated by skill level would far outlast a system where any Random Joe with Good RNG on any given week could waffle stomp anyone in their path because of a stat disparity

    Reducing the Power gap to a reasonable level Not removing it entirely i think is the essence of the conversation here

    @Blackhearted - i wouldnt say necessarily "practice for OW" i think Duels or even Unranked PVP for that.
    when it comes to ranked, Id want to be sweaty and go for the big W everytime and earn the potential reward for the effort put in to Learn classes, counterplay, mechanics, movement
    Pro's cons for certain class/builds

    there is time put in to learning what the potential Meta would be and how to break it THATS where the skill in Ranked Arena is in my LIMITED Opinion


    to tie back to @Altodor's original post

    WPVP should be the driving force its more engaging on a wider scale (and makes for great content
    Southshore V Tarren Mill BOYS!) Pvp shouldnt be balanced around Arena. But there should be a defined ranking to stop people who on any given week can change their pvp fate by 1-2 pieces of gear

    Im all for stomping noobs, but only when it comes down to the gameplay decisions i made on the fly
    Not because i Pulled out the Sword of a thousand Truths and essentially 1 Shot a team
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    I agree thanks for the dopamine in my head
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  • AltodorAltodor Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    @Numlock So you are saying that a player that has been playing the game for months, doing wpvp, large scale pvp and pve content should be punished so a new player that hasn't played the game and just jumped in to a ranked arena should have a chance?

    The reason I don't want any scaling or soft cap is that I don't like the feeling of my gear getting weaker just because I'm doing ranked pvp arena in the same game that I got that gear from. If I hit a guy for 2k damage in wpvp I should hit him for 2k in arena.

    Getting gear isn't easy in any game, yes it might not be difficult to get but atleast you are playing the game and learning from the experience, and from that experience you gain skill. I don't believe that people should get punished in ranked arena for farming gear out side ranked arena.

    I also want to say that, bad players will always lose, it doesn't matter how good gear they have they will lose. I have seen many ranked 14 geared players (bought account) in wow classic begin terrible players and not knowing there class, and because of that they can't get any kills.

    The fact is that gear should matter because of the experience of getting that gear matter, and if you lose that in any aspect In a mmorpg it's no longer a role playing game.

    I can however see some good points with the soft cap, and I wouldn't be angry with the developers if they did something like it. But I still don't think it's a good game design for a mmoRPG, making experience wpvper, large scale pvper or pvers weaker in arena just because new players shouldn't get smashed (which they will either way) isn't a fun experience.

    I also want to say that, I recently got in to flag carrying in wsg in wow classic again on my druid. But at first I was the worst. Had the wrong specc, not good gear set up, and because of that the enemy teams flag carry (fc) crushed me. But after seeing how good a fc can be I got inspired. I stared looking into talents i needed, new gear setup and some pots I can use. And after practicing and many wsgs I got better and better.
    With this I want to say that, it's not a bad thing for new players to get totally smashed, because from that they can see that they have much to learn and some day they can do that too.

    Hey I may have said the points of the soft cap system already in the first post. But its pretty much to keep gear from being the decisive factor in a competitive arena setting. Gear matters but theres a diminishing return.

    Thats pretty clear I think. I dont want that to be the biggest driving factor when skill should be whats under the limelight in a competitive setting. Especially when the rewards dont matter.

    I could totally see the whole not a roleplaying game point. If I were ugly id say if the game had instanced anything it wouldnt be a rpg. Also I would say why does my caravan just transform into a water caravan by itself. Why cant I grab components and move them to different spots to make the water caravan. When I reach that point. Kinda why I said before in a equalized gear post that you could just equip all iron armor and weapons like real people would in arena fights. Id take a morphine to fix my broken leg in dayz. Sure as shit am not gonna wait a couple months for my bones to heal. Some people do that but not the majority anyways.

    Again this is a soft cap system. Gear matters but with diminishing returns. Just protects gear from getting ridiculous in a competitive setting. Its a bonus but atleast those noobz wont get smashed because of gear.
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  • AltodorAltodor Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two

    ,
    Warth wrote: »
    Altodor wrote: »
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    I don't actually see the point of having a pvp arena scaling system? Why do you want this? What is the reason behind all this?

    About your goals:
    1. As mentioned in your other thread about equalizing gear, gear will and should always matter in a mmoRPG, a role playing game. If that doesn't appeal to you then this might not be your genre.
    2. This will still be the case without a pvp scaling system.
    3. "Noobz" will get crushed either way, if gear mattered or not. If they like the game they will continue to play and learn the game, and one day they will no longer be "noobz". A new player getting crushed or seeing someone else getting totally destroyed will encourage them to get better, having someone to look up to.

    Again, why do you want a system like this? Give me the reason and not the idea behind the solution.

    The goal is so that gear power never becomes a much more important variable than skill, talents, team composition, weapon choice, and gear set bonuses. There might be more variables but what im saying is to highlight what I mean

    So gear still matters in this system its just less powerful. I did mention that I dont think gear will matter too much if it makes up 40-50% of overall power. Maybe a system like this wont matter.

    The term might not be power creep but the term does feel right. People get omega powerful and nothing else matters in a competitive setting. Thats what im trying to avoid.

    Also I mentioned that this is the game for me :p

    instead of adapting a special mechanic in the arena, I'd prefer if they focussed on adapting the gear system properly. If they can keep the power difference through gear balanced, then there isn't need for a soft cap in the first place.

    True True. Id like that as well. Maybe I should read some stuff about gear balancing in that way. I cant wrap my head around a legendary weapon not spanking people though. Or anything close to it. I dont see anything wrong with there being a special mechanic for the arena though. I always get the vibe that people look at me with disgust just because I want this part of the game to be cool. As long as it isnt the focus of the game. I just want it to be a great game in the game ja know.
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  • AltodorAltodor Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    @Altodor how can you try different setups with out grinding? If you want a gear set they you have to go for it = grinding. Maybe it's a boss, maybe from wpvp or what ever. It's all about playing the game to get stronger, and if you play the game you will get skill and better gear.
    Gear isn't equal to skill, however skill will lead to gear. So the soft cap system is just a system to make things more complicated and from my point of view unnecessary.

    In a mmoRPG, a role playing game, you can come very far with only skill, but you also need gear since it's a part of your character. So if a high geared player enters the arena for the first time he may climb the rankes faster than a lower geard player, and to me that's fine. The rankes in a mmoRPG is all about the character AND NOT the player behind the screen.

    Why is he climbing faster though. Its because hes good. Because he has played the game longer. Hopefully because the gear variable is carrying him. Thats my point.

    The system doesnt make anything more complicated it just makes skill variable more important.
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  • AltodorAltodor Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think a Practice arena system, where players can choose potential gear loadouts, could be very cool.
    A practice arena system would have the following pros:
    1. Allows players to see what gear they should be chasing based on their individual playstyle.
    2. Allows players to develop strategies that they can use in ranked PVP without the penalty to ELO
    3. Can be used as a stress reliever due and a reminder of what players are grinding for.
    4. addresses the power gap problem, without actually affecting ranked PVP where all aspects of player skill should be taken into account. Don't want to get stomped in ranked PVP by players who have time to grind? then pick a build in the Practice arena system and play some matches there.
    5. Allows Hardcore PVPers to theory craft optimal builds.
    6. the Practice Arena system can be used for Official AOC tournaments similar to WoW's tournament realms.

    Thoughts on if this suggestion helps alleviate some problems?

    Everything sounds great man. I guess I still want to compete and get ranking in a semi fair way though. These ideas are another topic of discussion I think. Its just a playground for arena.
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  • Half Tilt GamerHalf Tilt Gamer Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I quite like the idea myself, gear still matters but the effects are somewhat dampened.
    I would prefer that only the STATS on the gear be normalized though and that any skill effect bonuses retain their full value regardless of bracket. This should help to avoid ruining any specific builds.
    Find me on Youtube and Twitch as Half Tilt Gamer!
  • @Altodor If we are playing ranked arena wouldn't the ranking system be away to separate the good player from the bad? So why do you need a soft cap system?

    The reason you want a soft cap system, from my point of view, is that you don't want experience AlC player to join arena, for the first time, and completely destroy you. You don't like the feeling that you are in fact are not a good player, so you try and find an explanation to why you lost. And that is when gear comes in. You say that you only lost because they had better gear then you, not because they were better players.

    Get you shit together, start playing the game and get gear and learn the game. This isn't an esports, this isn't a moba, this isn't a fps game, it's a mmorpg and scaling in anyway should not exist.
  • FuryBladeborneFuryBladeborne Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited November 2020
    People looking to remove gear advantage from the equation are simply trying to find a game mode for competitive PvP based on skill. Gear does not equal skill.

    If it is desired, there can be a system in place for a specific PvP mode that allows this.

    @rikardp98
    In your point of view example you have imagined that @Altodor lost a fight and wants to hide behind the excuse of gear. That hasn't happened here. The game doesn't even exist for the fight to have occurred. Instead, @Altodor is arguing for a game mode that wouldn't even allow for a player to use the defense of "lost because they had better gear". Apparently, @Altodor purpose is the exact opposite of what you think it is since @Altodor is actually attempting to remove the exact excuse that you imagine @Altodor would use.

    If an experienced PvPer fights a low skill player, that low skill player will usually (if not always) lose. The difference in relation to the thread topic is, gear will not be blamed as the reason.
  • @FuryBladeborne that's actually some very good points and I can see what you mean. But then you have to look at the game and what that game is. Ashes of creation is an mmorpg where the character is the focus and not the individual player. Just because there might be a ranked arena doesn't mean you should have to implement a gear scaling system to make high gear players weaker.

    And having they excuses "he just got better gear than me" is something that should exist in a mmorpg. If you want to prove it you need to play the game, farm gear and come back a overall better player.
  • rikardp98 wrote: »
    @FuryBladeborne that's actually some very good points and I can see what you mean. But then you have to look at the game and what that game is. Ashes of creation is an mmorpg where the character is the focus and not the individual player. Just because there might be a ranked arena doesn't mean you should have to implement a gear scaling system to make high gear players weaker.

    And having they excuses "he just got better gear than me" is something that should exist in a mmorpg. If you want to prove it you need to play the game, farm gear and come back a overall better player.

    I believe the argument against this is that ranked arena does not have the same focus as the rest of the game. It's supposed to be a competitive match between players where skill is the focus. Let's not forget that this is a soft cap, so if you go get the gear you can still do better baseline. This soft cap just increases the degree that skill matters and lessens the impact of gear.
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  • @sathran and I think it's there we have different views, I believe that the arena is still a part of the game and should not be different. Ranking in arena should mean you rank in the whole game (in a way). That is why I don't think the soft cap or any scaling or gear equalizing in any way should exist in ashes.

    I can see some good in the soft cap, but what I also don't really get is, why do we need a soft cap on ranked arena when there will be a ranking system which will separate based on overall player skill. Also, remember that all this is hypothetical and we don't know if there even will be a ranked arena or not

    And also remember that getting better gear don't matter. If you are at the soft cap for, let's say rank 10, and you are up against another player with rank 10 that just hit the soft cap. Even if you have 100 times better gear then I'm you will still do just as much damage as him. Meaning your gear will be scaled down so you don't, for some reason, out damage/heal another player. As I have said before, if I hit a player for 2k in the open world I should hit him for 2k in arena.

    This system makes gear matter up to a curtain point which will depend on your rank.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I thought about this some more. This thread seems to be happening twice on the forums...
    In any case I would not mind, scaling or some sort of gear equalization if it happened in a separate arena not tired to any real game server.

    Guildwars 1 had a system where you could just roll a level 20 character, and earn skills on that character in a separate arena system. Maybe if AoC had a separate server for to try and foster some sort of E-Sports. That would be fine, but it in no way should be tied to real servers or characters. This would be more like a fighting game more MOBA. I would not mind APOC and AoC and a AoC arena server all existing side by side. I do mind when people advocate for systems that change the dynamics of the open world PvP sandbox and its economy.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • rikardp98rikardp98 Member
    edited November 2020
    @Vhaeyne yeah, I wouldn't mind separate servers like a e-sport server.

    If however there were a system that was implement to "fix" the power cap problem that may occur in ranked arena I would suggest a gear bracket system. Basically a system similar to the weight class in boxing.

    Let's say you have three different brackets, for simplicity let's call them low, medium and high. A new player with starting gear will join the low bracket and start ranking there. Lets say that this new player is starting to get new and better gear. He can now join the medium bracket and rank there if he wants to. He will still have is rank in the low bracket but can not continue to rank there with his higher ranked gear.

    This system will allow hardcore arena players to really show there skills by getting the highest rank in all the different brackets. I also feel like this system would encourage pvp players to explore different setups to find the best setup for the different brackets.

    It's not a perfect system, one negative is that it will in a way split up the arena players in smaller groups and possibly making the queue times longer.

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