Arena and a Scaling Soft Cap on Gear Power Level System

My power level is over 9000. There its been said now you cant say it.

Hello I want gear equalization in arena but I realized that the open world should be the focus and gear equalization, even though imo its not too big of a deal, will rip some people away from the open world (the important part of the game).

So my goals for this system are
1. Not have gear be the most important variable in a rated arena fight
2. Keep gear relevant in arena fights
3. Protect the noobz from getting overwhelmed by the gear variable. Thats right only the gear variable. Not anything else.

I am by no means saying the core game should be balanced around arena encounters btw. It really shouldnt. If arenas awesome great. Should it be the focus? I think we all know it sure as hell shouldnt be.

Quick note that Steven said gear should make up 40-50% of overall power level. Which just makes me think 2 naked guys can destroy a 1 geared guy. So honestly im inclined to think gear kinda doesnt matter anyways and what matters is what type of gear you put on. Better stat allocation will always net better results. But hey ill throw this idea out here anyways.

So this is how I think arena should work

Once you reach level 50 (projected to be 225 hours of leveling as of this moment) you will be eligible to enter arena.

You will more than likely get into arena with pretty basic or atleast pretty decent level 50 gear. Giving you a power level sort of on the low tier end in terms of gear. Now in these low ratings there is a soft cap on anything above power level 100 (random number for power measuring). Giving you lets say 50% power level reduction on anything past this point. This prevents the gear variable from being super relevant in the low ratings of arena.

Now as you progress up the ladder the power level increases. Lets say after getting higher rating power level 200 is now the soft cap and anything past is reduced by 50%. Making you a bit undergeared for your rating. You go out into the world and gear more. Maybe until you hit the soft cap so that you can continue to compete at a semi optimal level.

I hope we all get the process im gonna skip some points and get the end of the soft cap.

So you reach a pretty high rating and the soft cap now becomes static. As in lets say 500 power level and no matter how much higher you go in the rating it will always be 500 power level soft cap. Anything past this power level will result in a 50% reduction in your power level over 500 power level. So if I was power level 600 then at that higher rating I would actually have 550 power level in the arena.

I dont want to go over balancing these are just examples to help paint a picture.

Since its confusing there could be a quest to help understand it or a helpful ui to show soft caps in the arena tabs I guess.

Also this is the game for me I just want the arena to be more balanced if gear was variable that really turned the tides in battle. So its still relevant in the equation

To sum this up on the positives side of things - It protects noobs and maybe mid tier players - Gear matters but there is a diminishing return on it

Edit: Someone made me think it was a good idea to put here that this would only be for ranked arena - I wrote this at 7:44PM EST November 5th 2020

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Numlock

rikardp98 wrote: »

@Numlock how would you feel if you farm for gear for hours and hours, maybe even months to get the right gear setup. Then you do open world pvp and large scale pvp where you crushes your opponents, not only because of your gear but also because of your knowledge of the game. Then you queue for a ranked arena (first time) and your gear stats or what ever are scaled down by 50%, and the other dude that have worst gear than you and have only played for a few days do more damage than you. That's what pvp scaling does and it doesn't feel good as a player.

I'm all for ranked arena where high ranked player fight against each other, I do not see why a soft cap to gear is a necessary though.

A skilled player will play the game and earn gear "passively" and will be able to rank in areana.

A new player will play ranked arena and get smashed either way, with a soft cap or not.

Is there reason behind the soft cap that you only want to do arena and nothing else or what is it? I have only heard ideas or suggestions to solve those ideas, but I haven't heard the reason behind the idea that you don't want a power gap.

If you say "RNG" then fine, but at this point we don't know anything about how the gearing system will work so at that point it's only ideas based on speculation based on precious experience in a different game.

From my point of view I hear people wanting pvp scaling because they are tried if getting smashed by better player which they blame on "random" gear drops and not skill at all.

Some good points here that id like to talk on more.

but my main reason for agreeing on a soft cap is ive played reasonably High pvp in another MMO and PVP STAT Scaling is terrible if you've seen any of rextroy's vid from wow you can see why but thats when ALL PVP is scaled regardless of level/gear* ---- More on this after

World PVP is more of a zerg fest than calculated choices/reactive choice arena pvp is more.. Purely Skill based.
to rebute your point there is no concievable way the New player would do more damage than a geared + Experienced player in your example.

gear would be at the Peak of the Cap whilst new player would be at the minimal possible stat so experienced players benefit from the softcap but not by much

Plus the Skill and game knowledge gained in those months would outweigh the possiblilty of a NEW PLAYER being able to topple a seasoned player in a bracket. they simple know their class better
the bracketing would keep people on an Evenish Playing field where gear matters but at a diminished return so nobody in the lowest bracket can outright Massacre the new player with stats alone

the reasoning for the soft cap is to handle the situation when a player is in the example you mentioned:
A player who has been playing for months, recently joined an Arena for the first time. vs someone who has only been playing arena or recently played the game has gotten a few wins and a small few drops

The Arena only/Brand new guy can still put up a fight comparable to the guy who has gear/no Arena skill In the Lowest bracket then skill comes into play. PVP Is a totally different ball game than just PVEing something to death,
and the New to arena but geared guy can benefit (a little) from his gear but because the guy has never done Arena PVP or just PVE,WPVP he would know less about the in's and out's of small team fights
Again im assuming most WPVP will be somewhat large scale

the more skilled a person is in ARENA they should come out on top a larger % more than if you hadnt done a day of Small team PVP 2V2, 3V3, 5V5 whatever it may be

i have writtin this after a celebration so im SLIGTLY Toasted but i believe my point was made without too much error

rikardp98

@Numlock So you are saying that a player that has been playing the game for months, doing wpvp, large scale pvp and pve content should be punished so a new player that hasn't played the game and just jumped in to a ranked arena should have a chance?

The reason I don't want any scaling or soft cap is that I don't like the feeling of my gear getting weaker just because I'm doing ranked pvp arena in the same game that I got that gear from. If I hit a guy for 2k damage in wpvp I should hit him for 2k in arena.

Getting gear isn't easy in any game, yes it might not be difficult to get but atleast you are playing the game and learning from the experience, and from that experience you gain skill. I don't believe that people should get punished in ranked arena for farming gear out side ranked arena.

I also want to say that, bad players will always lose, it doesn't matter how good gear they have they will lose. I have seen many ranked 14 geared players (bought account) in wow classic begin terrible players and not knowing there class, and because of that they can't get any kills.

The fact is that gear should matter because of the experience of getting that gear matter, and if you lose that in any aspect In a mmorpg it's no longer a role playing game.

I can however see some good points with the soft cap, and I wouldn't be angry with the developers if they did something like it. But I still don't think it's a good game design for a mmoRPG, making experience wpvper, large scale pvper or pvers weaker in arena just because new players shouldn't get smashed (which they will either way) isn't a fun experience.

I also want to say that, I recently got in to flag carrying in wsg in wow classic again on my druid. But at first I was the worst. Had the wrong specc, not good gear set up, and because of that the enemy teams flag carry (fc) crushed me. But after seeing how good a fc can be I got inspired. I stared looking into talents i needed, new gear setup and some pots I can use. And after practicing and many wsgs I got better and better.
With this I want to say that, it's not a bad thing for new players to get totally smashed, because from that they can see that they have much to learn and some day they can do that too.

Altodor

Sathrago wrote: »

@Numlock the issue of pve gear being too good in pvp isn't going to be a thing as there is no pve or pvp gear. It is all just gear.

Now as for the ideas from @Altodor, these are very similar to the hell gate system and arena system of Albion online. Which is actually a good thing.

My only concern is how you will be able to do the ranking/scaling system when normally players of different ranks end up fighting each other. Or do you think that players should only fight those within their tier of soft cap/rating?

Albion hellgates is kinda the inspiration for the idea. I was under the impression that people for the most part play against people from the same rating. That is how it should work at least. Wouldnt be too bad of an idea if the system wasnt so rigid with soft cap levels. It would go up every 25 power levels or something.

Just to say it again yeah I do think they would match up with similar ratings

Altodor

rikardp98 wrote: »

I don't actually see the point of having a pvp arena scaling system? Why do you want this? What is the reason behind all this?

About your goals:
1. As mentioned in your other thread about equalizing gear, gear will and should always matter in a mmoRPG, a role playing game. If that doesn't appeal to you then this might not be your genre.
2. This will still be the case without a pvp scaling system.
3. "Noobz" will get crushed either way, if gear mattered or not. If they like the game they will continue to play and learn the game, and one day they will no longer be "noobz". A new player getting crushed or seeing someone else getting totally destroyed will encourage them to get better, having someone to look up to.

Again, why do you want a system like this? Give me the reason and not the idea behind the solution.

The goal is so that gear power never becomes a much more important variable than skill, talents, team composition, weapon choice, and gear set bonuses. There might be more variables but what im saying is to highlight what I mean

So gear still matters in this system its just less powerful. I did mention that I dont think gear will matter too much if it makes up 40-50% of overall power. Maybe a system like this wont matter.

The term might not be power creep but the term does feel right. People get omega powerful and nothing else matters in a competitive setting. Thats what im trying to avoid.

Also I mentioned that this is the game for me

Altodor

bloodprophet wrote: »

Thought this was a thread already?

Nah it isnt. Atleast I cant find a thread like it anyways

Altodor

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Just play a fighting game or MOBA if you want equalized PvP. I don't want equalized anything in a MMORPG.
I want to retain the full value of my gear across all content.
Realize that we are all equalized in our equal ability to obtain gear.
If the world is not equalized, why would the arena?

Remember this is a open world PvP game. What makes the arena more equalized is that you have a set team size and you all start at full health/mana. That already is way more competitive than the world.

So the point isnt to equalize gear its to give a diminishing return on it depending on rating. To help it not become a huge variable over things that actually matter in a competitive setting. Other variables like skill and team comp. Stuff like that.

That makes sense from a role play perspective. Its just that the roleplay perspective doesnt change my mind when it comes to this sectioned off competitive very small part of the game. I rather think more about what is more enjoyable gameplay wise than keeping the integrity of the game here. I still do feel you though for sure. It really wouldnt make sense to not keep your power everywhere.

Maybe cast a arcane magic limiter on you so you cant unleash your full power and destroy the world ja know

Altodor

rikardp98 wrote: »

I totally agree with Vhaeyne, arena is just a small team fight where you and some mates can do pvp on a small scale.

Usually open world pvp comes down to numbers or taking someone by surprise. In arena you are up against full health/Mana (as mentioned by Vhaeyne) player that knows you are coming.

If you lose then that means your opponents knows more about the overall game. What gear to use, what abilities to press, and where to spend your talent points. And that also means you have alot more room to grow both in skills and knowledge.

mmorpgs, role playing games, is about pure skills but also about the overall knowledge about the game, and mmorpg tend to be pretty big games. That also means that you can not "master" a mmorpg by playing it 1-3 hours a week, you need to spend time ingame with your friends and the community alot, but also IRL by doing some research and what not to really become the best.

I dont really see what we disagree about here. Thats the perfect scenario right there for me. I would like people to think I need to learn more and try different gear setups and team comps vs I need to grind to raise my power level.

Since ja know, I got fucked and im bad so I chalk it up to them having better gear and never play arena again. Oh! Cant say that if there is some sort of gear diminishing returns.

Thats worst case scenario dont quote me on this plox ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Altodor

Sathrago wrote: »

idk guys I think a soft cap could be useful. it lowers the power gap between players to make it more about skill but does not remove the advantage of better gear. This is a middle ground that I find works for both mindsets.

Thanks you put a stupid grin on my face. Albion really does show it well. But maybe it serves that game better since its full loot drop.

Just tossing ideas here boiz. Thats all it is

Warth

Altodor wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

I don't actually see the point of having a pvp arena scaling system? Why do you want this? What is the reason behind all this?

About your goals:
1. As mentioned in your other thread about equalizing gear, gear will and should always matter in a mmoRPG, a role playing game. If that doesn't appeal to you then this might not be your genre.
2. This will still be the case without a pvp scaling system.
3. "Noobz" will get crushed either way, if gear mattered or not. If they like the game they will continue to play and learn the game, and one day they will no longer be "noobz". A new player getting crushed or seeing someone else getting totally destroyed will encourage them to get better, having someone to look up to.

Again, why do you want a system like this? Give me the reason and not the idea behind the solution.

The goal is so that gear power never becomes a much more important variable than skill, talents, team composition, weapon choice, and gear set bonuses. There might be more variables but what im saying is to highlight what I mean

So gear still matters in this system its just less powerful. I did mention that I dont think gear will matter too much if it makes up 40-50% of overall power. Maybe a system like this wont matter.

The term might not be power creep but the term does feel right. People get omega powerful and nothing else matters in a competitive setting. Thats what im trying to avoid.

Also I mentioned that this is the game for me

instead of adapting a special mechanic in the arena, I'd prefer if they focussed on adapting the gear system properly. If they can keep the power difference through gear balanced, then there isn't need for a soft cap in the first place.

Altodor

Warth wrote: »

I have to agree with rikard here.

The suggestion literally doesn't matter for anybody but the top echleon of players as lower players below that will simply get matched against either
Similarly geared and similarly skilled players

worse geared but more skilled players

better geared but less skilled player

In the end, they'd always just meet players, that should give them a somewhat interesting challenge. People that "overwhelm noobs" with their gear will climb soon enough and meet similarily geared people.
Those who want to be at the very top however should be expected to go for the gear grind to be at the very top. This is despite pointing out the obvious flaws of this system.

A: downscaling of gear/strength hasn't worked in a single game in existance. You are either significantly stronger or significantly weaker than real low leveled / real low geared players.

B: The static tier system sucks for everybody transitioning tiers without being overgeared in the first place.
Let's assume you have the following tiers:
Wood - up to 600 ELO -> gear max power level of 100

Iron - up to 900 ELO -> gear max power level of 150

Bronze - up to 1200 ELO -> gear max power level of 200

Silver - up to 1500 ELO -> gear max power level of 250

Gold - up to 1800 Elo -> gear max power level of 300

Platinum - up to 2100 ELO -> gear max power level of 350

Diamond - up to 2400 ELO -> unlimited gear power level

Now, what will happen is, that the so called "noobs" will face a significant hurdle the moment they go from 1200 to 1201. The moment they go beyond that point, while having insufficient gear to back it up, they will be at a natural disadvantage. Which leads to those players not wanting to progress past the point of 1200. Players, that would be far better in terms of skill dump their ELO to stay at a point where they are not at an disadvantage, which will results in another bad experience for the players that belong in this tier.

The problems are smurfs, that dump their ELO on purpose to "stomp some noobs". Soft or hardcapping gear doesn't stop that at all. Disincentivize smurfing is what they should be aiming to do, not limit the influence of gear, which will result in the exact opposite.

Quick note that Steven said gear should make up 40-50% of overall power level. Which just makes me think 2 naked guys can destroy a 1 geared guy.

Also, this is a false equivalency. Gear and your Build are multiplicative, not additive. They feed off each other.

Ok great I got some points to kinda disagree on!

So at some point gear soft cap would stop I hope I did write that but im pretty sure I did. plz dont make scroll papa.

So the point for that is to not make power creep a thing. Good/bad example (Ill explain) is Archeage. The whole entire pvp part of the game is either getting 1 shot or 1 shotting someone. Everyone dumps resources into weapons and does that. Bye bye any chance I have at thinking about counters to scenarios when time to kill is 2 seconds. Anyways I say its a bad example because even with shitty gear you still one shot everyone LOL. Game sucks. But at the same time it doesnt.

The other point which I will shamelessly say was the first intended goal. Kinda dont agree with it ja know. But its to put a finish line in front of people for high rated arena. Even though its not the finish line. You could still go over this and benefit from it. I wanted to put it before legendary weapons came into the equation but not too soon that youll reach it in a months time playing the game. TBH getting to level 50 will take you a month. This is so power level is never the reason for winning at the top ratings. Im so powerful I kill you 1 rotation type thing.

Id like to talk more about that point but I think thats all I got really.

You know all those points about getting matched up together make sense. Like a lot of sense. It would all be somewhat the same encounters and interesting probably.

Id say id like it to always be similarly geared and similarly skilled players all the time. Unless you distinguished yourself climbed rating now its worse gear and similar skill. Or you decided im gonna overgear to do good my early ratings. Whatever.

I could see how if gear was really important it would naturally balance the ratings the way im saying with soft cap. But I just feel like there is some scenarios where the gear and the rating dont match up and people get fucked. I still think this would help those scenarios and it not just about the top players at this point. I guess thats your point about smurfing. This soft cap idea could prevent that.

So for point A about downscaling - Albion has a system like this. But it plays on risk vs reward with the full loot drop in hellgates. So if I want I could bring my tier 8 gear but id have 50% power reduction past 1000 power level AND that gear costs a lot and would suck to lose. I guess here people would risk shit so theyd still gear up if they wanted to do better. So yeah, it has worked but not exactly LOL

Ill add that people in mid tier gear who are more skilled beat people who are more geared but are worse than them possibly because of this soft cap system (in Albion Online Hellgates). The power creep in there is pretty significant.

So for point B my first thoughts were I mentioned that the balancing part of it doesnt matter to me. Why not change it so its not static. Make brackets are closer. Make the elo increase soft cap per 10 points idk. I just dont wanna break my head over that now before I see if the soft cap system holds its ground to arguments.

Just to say it again there wouldnt be a unlimited gear scaling if thats what you meant. Static soft cap after a certain point. Might suffer from rating values changing idk. plz no balancing papa 4 brain cellz hurt already.

If people dump rating to stay at a point let em do it. I guess there more interested in playing arena than competing. Maybe those dudes could do another arena mode that doesnt have soft cap system and ladder. You know to have fun or something like that. Skirmishes I think they are called in WoW. This point doesnt hold up too well im just not concerned with people tanking rating so they dont have gear anymore since the soft cap increased. Those same guys dont want to do arena for rating imo.

High geared people tanking rating to fight noobz is just so stupid with the soft cap system. Imagine being geared and high rating. Tanking rating and having your gear stats lowered and not getting the satisfaction of roflstomping some pug in the lower ratings. Then having to go back up the ladder fighting people who are similarly geared to you and probably similarly skilled too. I dont see it happening atleast with the soft cap stuff.

I have dedicated a large part of my morning to this and it made me happy. Always giving good points Warth ty. Also I will try to learn what the gear stuff means some day. Some day.

rikardp98

@Altodor how can you try different setups with out grinding? If you want a gear set they you have to go for it = grinding. Maybe it's a boss, maybe from wpvp or what ever. It's all about playing the game to get stronger, and if you play the game you will get skill and better gear.
Gear isn't equal to skill, however skill will lead to gear. So the soft cap system is just a system to make things more complicated and from my point of view unnecessary.

In a mmoRPG, a role playing game, you can come very far with only skill, but you also need gear since it's a part of your character. So if a high geared player enters the arena for the first time he may climb the rankes faster than a lower geard player, and to me that's fine. The rankes in a mmoRPG is all about the character AND NOT the player behind the screen.

ThePhilosophile

I think a Practice arena system, where players can choose potential gear loadouts, could be very cool.
A practice arena system would have the following pros:
1. Allows players to see what gear they should be chasing based on their individual playstyle.
2. Allows players to develop strategies that they can use in ranked PVP without the penalty to ELO
3. Can be used as a stress reliever due and a reminder of what players are grinding for.
4. addresses the power gap problem, without actually affecting ranked PVP where all aspects of player skill should be taken into account. Don't want to get stomped in ranked PVP by players who have time to grind? then pick a build in the Practice arena system and play some matches there.
5. Allows Hardcore PVPers to theory craft optimal builds.
6. the Practice Arena system can be used for Official AOC tournaments similar to WoW's tournament realms.

Thoughts on if this suggestion helps alleviate some problems?

Atama

There is one MAJOR problem with this idea...

In order to have any kind of meaningful cap or ranking system, gear has to be assigned a power level. Or a "gear score". And you know how the developers feel about gear scores, and DPS meters, and so on.

Without any way to objectively measure one piece of gear from another, I don't see how you can rank gear.

Vhaeyne

Altodor wrote: »

So the point isnt to equalize gear its to give a diminishing return on it depending on rating. To help it not become a huge variable over things that actually matter in a competitive setting. Other variables like skill and team comp. Stuff like that.

That makes sense from a role play perspective. Its just that the roleplay perspective doesnt change my mind when it comes to this sectioned off competitive very small part of the game. I rather think more about what is more enjoyable gameplay wise than keeping the integrity of the game here. I still do feel you though for sure. It really wouldnt make sense to not keep your power everywhere.

Maybe cast a arcane magic limiter on you so you cant unleash your full power and destroy the world ja know

I would not have a problem if intrepid took your side of the argument. It's not the end of the world to me.

I must say that in addition to my previous post. There is a strong economic counter argument to be made against you. Unrestricted gear means that the arena will be subject to the gearing system of the rest of the game. This means that over enchanting is a big deal for the arena now. I did not get to participate in the Olympiad in L2 myself. I have fond memories of our clan pumping resources in weekly to get one more + on some over enchanted s-grade for our arena guy. He had a set of gear that was a clan effort to make. The magnum opus of our clan that kept his name at the top. We had our whole clan working to gather not only to provide gear for each other, but to take a percentage of the resources to try and get more over enchanted gear. This makes it so that clans are more likely to try and over enchant some gear for arena wins. This means that more materials across all nodes are selling. It is a way that the arena system can benefit the economy. People are going to be enchanting their gear to a certain degree for real world PvE and PVP, but the uncapped arena would give clans a reason to invest heavily into gear.

I don't think the speculative system I just described is exactly fair or perfect for potential arena players, but I do think it is better for entire servers if it makes it so that more clans are willing to try and over enchant to the limits of statistics.

Altodor

Warth wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

idk guys I think a soft cap could be useful. it lowers the power gap between players to make it more about skill but does not remove the advantage of better gear. This is a middle ground that I find works for both mindsets.

But the question is, why do we need a soft cap? What is the reason you want to remove a power cap?

When it comes to ranked arena, the best players with the most skill and best gear will be the toped rank players. Meaning that high powered players will queue up against each other.

So why? @Sathrago

It allows more players the ability to participate. That's pretty much the only reason. Some people can't farm for hours for bis gear, so maybe they can hop on and do a bit of arena without feeling like it's completely hopeless due to gear?

I do want to clarify my own position on this though, I don't care if there is an item power soft cap, and given a choice I would do without it. However if they decided to do something like that I could completely understand why.

That's what the ranking system is for. To be matched against players of equivalent strength. They can jump in whenever they want and face people on a similar power level than them. Whether this is through gear or skill doesn't matter.

Id say the ranking system should show how good you are and to a lesser degree how geared you are. I guess at some point I selfishly want a player to reach a high point in their gear progression and not have to worry about getting the last 10% of their power that might take just as long to get to as getting the other 90%

Altodor

Blackhearted wrote: »

I think equalized arenas would be great as they focus solely on skill. Every other PvP system will be gear relevant so why not leave one for players to test who are the best. Tera had equalized PvP system and I found a lot of enjoyment there.
A system like that would also allow new players practise for ow pvp.

I used to agree with you since I thought the 200+ hour grind was enough to root out players who wanna no life arena only. Kinda want the open world to matter too for those players. But not to the point where they wanna spend most of their time in the arena but actually spend most of their time grinding.

Kinda like old school runescape. Took me 1000 hours to get where I wanted to get. Doing raids 1 and 2. Now PvP in the wilderness. Was like 80% shitty grinds that I was bored in. Wanting to quit. Im ranting but thats just another point of the soft cap system. OSRS introduced LMS a pvp minigame where even level 1 free to play people can join and have equalized gear and stats. The rewards basically dont mean anything and it doesnt kill the game or anything. Its not a huge open world caravan trading castle/node sieging game though.

Altodor

Numlock wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

idk guys I think a soft cap could be useful. it lowers the power gap between players to make it more about skill but does not remove the advantage of better gear. This is a middle ground that I find works for both mindsets.

But the question is, why do we need a soft cap? What is the reason you want to remove a power cap?

When it comes to ranked arena, the best players with the most skill and best gear will be the toped rank players. Meaning that high powered players will queue up against each other.

So why? @Sathrago

I agree with @Sathrago in the sense that an even playing field in Arena where an enemy is in the same boat as you but is only seperated by skill level would far outlast a system where any Random Joe with Good RNG on any given week could waffle stomp anyone in their path because of a stat disparity

Reducing the Power gap to a reasonable level Not removing it entirely i think is the essence of the conversation here

@Blackhearted - i wouldnt say necessarily "practice for OW" i think Duels or even Unranked PVP for that.
when it comes to ranked, Id want to be sweaty and go for the big W everytime and earn the potential reward for the effort put in to Learn classes, counterplay, mechanics, movement
Pro's cons for certain class/builds

there is time put in to learning what the potential Meta would be and how to break it THATS where the skill in Ranked Arena is in my LIMITED Opinion

to tie back to @Altodor's original post

WPVP should be the driving force its more engaging on a wider scale (and makes for great content
Southshore V Tarren Mill BOYS!) Pvp shouldnt be balanced around Arena. But there should be a defined ranking to stop people who on any given week can change their pvp fate by 1-2 pieces of gear

Im all for stomping noobs, but only when it comes down to the gameplay decisions i made on the fly
Not because i Pulled out the Sword of a thousand Truths and essentially 1 Shot a team

I agree thanks for the dopamine in my head

Altodor

rikardp98 wrote: »

@Numlock So you are saying that a player that has been playing the game for months, doing wpvp, large scale pvp and pve content should be punished so a new player that hasn't played the game and just jumped in to a ranked arena should have a chance?

The reason I don't want any scaling or soft cap is that I don't like the feeling of my gear getting weaker just because I'm doing ranked pvp arena in the same game that I got that gear from. If I hit a guy for 2k damage in wpvp I should hit him for 2k in arena.

Getting gear isn't easy in any game, yes it might not be difficult to get but atleast you are playing the game and learning from the experience, and from that experience you gain skill. I don't believe that people should get punished in ranked arena for farming gear out side ranked arena.

I also want to say that, bad players will always lose, it doesn't matter how good gear they have they will lose. I have seen many ranked 14 geared players (bought account) in wow classic begin terrible players and not knowing there class, and because of that they can't get any kills.

The fact is that gear should matter because of the experience of getting that gear matter, and if you lose that in any aspect In a mmorpg it's no longer a role playing game.

I can however see some good points with the soft cap, and I wouldn't be angry with the developers if they did something like it. But I still don't think it's a good game design for a mmoRPG, making experience wpvper, large scale pvper or pvers weaker in arena just because new players shouldn't get smashed (which they will either way) isn't a fun experience.

I also want to say that, I recently got in to flag carrying in wsg in wow classic again on my druid. But at first I was the worst. Had the wrong specc, not good gear set up, and because of that the enemy teams flag carry (fc) crushed me. But after seeing how good a fc can be I got inspired. I stared looking into talents i needed, new gear setup and some pots I can use. And after practicing and many wsgs I got better and better.
With this I want to say that, it's not a bad thing for new players to get totally smashed, because from that they can see that they have much to learn and some day they can do that too.

Hey I may have said the points of the soft cap system already in the first post. But its pretty much to keep gear from being the decisive factor in a competitive arena setting. Gear matters but theres a diminishing return.

Thats pretty clear I think. I dont want that to be the biggest driving factor when skill should be whats under the limelight in a competitive setting. Especially when the rewards dont matter.

I could totally see the whole not a roleplaying game point. If I were ugly id say if the game had instanced anything it wouldnt be a rpg. Also I would say why does my caravan just transform into a water caravan by itself. Why cant I grab components and move them to different spots to make the water caravan. When I reach that point. Kinda why I said before in a equalized gear post that you could just equip all iron armor and weapons like real people would in arena fights. Id take a morphine to fix my broken leg in dayz. Sure as shit am not gonna wait a couple months for my bones to heal. Some people do that but not the majority anyways.

Again this is a soft cap system. Gear matters but with diminishing returns. Just protects gear from getting ridiculous in a competitive setting. Its a bonus but atleast those noobz wont get smashed because of gear.

Altodor

Warth wrote: »

Altodor wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

I don't actually see the point of having a pvp arena scaling system? Why do you want this? What is the reason behind all this?

About your goals:
1. As mentioned in your other thread about equalizing gear, gear will and should always matter in a mmoRPG, a role playing game. If that doesn't appeal to you then this might not be your genre.
2. This will still be the case without a pvp scaling system.
3. "Noobz" will get crushed either way, if gear mattered or not. If they like the game they will continue to play and learn the game, and one day they will no longer be "noobz". A new player getting crushed or seeing someone else getting totally destroyed will encourage them to get better, having someone to look up to.

Again, why do you want a system like this? Give me the reason and not the idea behind the solution.

The goal is so that gear power never becomes a much more important variable than skill, talents, team composition, weapon choice, and gear set bonuses. There might be more variables but what im saying is to highlight what I mean

So gear still matters in this system its just less powerful. I did mention that I dont think gear will matter too much if it makes up 40-50% of overall power. Maybe a system like this wont matter.

The term might not be power creep but the term does feel right. People get omega powerful and nothing else matters in a competitive setting. Thats what im trying to avoid.

Also I mentioned that this is the game for me

instead of adapting a special mechanic in the arena, I'd prefer if they focussed on adapting the gear system properly. If they can keep the power difference through gear balanced, then there isn't need for a soft cap in the first place.

True True. Id like that as well. Maybe I should read some stuff about gear balancing in that way. I cant wrap my head around a legendary weapon not spanking people though. Or anything close to it. I dont see anything wrong with there being a special mechanic for the arena though. I always get the vibe that people look at me with disgust just because I want this part of the game to be cool. As long as it isnt the focus of the game. I just want it to be a great game in the game ja know.

Altodor

rikardp98 wrote: »

@Altodor how can you try different setups with out grinding? If you want a gear set they you have to go for it = grinding. Maybe it's a boss, maybe from wpvp or what ever. It's all about playing the game to get stronger, and if you play the game you will get skill and better gear.
Gear isn't equal to skill, however skill will lead to gear. So the soft cap system is just a system to make things more complicated and from my point of view unnecessary.

In a mmoRPG, a role playing game, you can come very far with only skill, but you also need gear since it's a part of your character. So if a high geared player enters the arena for the first time he may climb the rankes faster than a lower geard player, and to me that's fine. The rankes in a mmoRPG is all about the character AND NOT the player behind the screen.

Why is he climbing faster though. Its because hes good. Because he has played the game longer. Hopefully because the gear variable is carrying him. Thats my point.

The system doesnt make anything more complicated it just makes skill variable more important.

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