Dying in PvE, how often is too often?

I'm curious how frequently people think they should die in PvE environments. During solo questing for example, taking on content meant for your level range, I would still like to die once every 1-3 hours without being overly risky. I also like the slightly slower and more dangerous feel of the world that vanilla WoW provided vs something like BDO. In BDO I kind of feel overpowered (I have not reached end-game) and it's not really a matter of can I kill the mobs, but rather, how efficiently can I do it. How many can I farm at once sort of deal which has its charm and appeal but isn't as fun or challenging in my eyes. In contrast, in classic WoW I had to think about what HP/mana justified sitting down to eat/drink or bandage and how to recover/sort out my resources before any pull. And each pull was a bit scary, you had to be mindful of re-spawns, agro radius etc. This was a lot more enjoyable for me and was more humbling than BDO. The only issue I can see with this is the open world PvP can make an already challenging PvE environment nightmarish (specifically with stealth classes haha) but honestly, personally I love that.

I still very much would prefer a slower farming sort of gameplay where each pull was more dangerous but rewarding and I had to do some level of prep (drinking to get mana back) after a couple of pulls. I think how AoC deals with death in solo PvE environments will also be very telling of how group PvE content is meant to be approached. I think for truly difficult PvE group content (raids dungeons etc), the game needs to be friendly to death and if players have no real experience with it while solo question/farming then I think it would be a mistake.

Would love to hear people's opinions on how PvE death should be handled, and how frequently it should occur, particularly in the absence of PvP. And I'd also like to hear if the open world aspect of the game changes the desired PvE danger dynamic for you, as in if you think PvE should be easier since the game is open world PvP or something.

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

George_Black

I think you should die any time you aggro 2 non-easy mobs of your lv and you are on low MP and half HP, unless you are a tank.

For me, a non ez mob is when the TTK is 45+ seconds without using too much MP.

George_Black

I dont know if we can measure how often is normal.

I think we should try to suggest what is an acceptable challenge when a player takes reasonable actions instead of Leroying it.

I have not found challenging overland mobs for solo XP since L2.

In any other game I feel overpowered as well when I solo and still get good returns and xp.

daveywavey

George Black wrote: »

I dont know if we can measure how often is normal.

Exactly. It depends on how you play, where you're playing, what you're doing, how well you're doing it, how much effort you're putting in, how distracted you are when doing it, whether or not there's someone else there who wants to stop you doing it, etc.

There are probably a lot of variables.

Vhaeyne

It depends on the game. In retail WOW right now it feels like I have to be extremely reckless to die to mobs in the overworld. In old school FFXI fighting a on level mob past level 10 was almost always a sure fire way to die.

I prefer the FFXI end of the spectrum. It is part of the reason I often spend time on FFXI private servers. You can't do anything alone, and everything you do feels like a major accomplishment. I don't know where AOC will end up on the spectrum. I would like to see it lean towards: You can barley solo regular mobs, you need a full group to fight elites. I am sure others world prefer the wow style, you can kill groups of regular mobs and solo most normal elites.

The reason why I prefer mobs to be harder is because it encourages grouping and socialization. I would meet new people everyday in FFXI. In wow I could run 20 dungeons in a day and not meet a single new person.

Noaani

To me, it depends on the content.

Solo questing I would only expect to die if I screw up badly. While learning top end raiding though, if I am not being killed at least every 5 minutes, the content isn't hard enough.

McShave

In Classic WoW, I found it frustrating when I was fighting a human NPC and then they ran away at low health, pulling another npc. And this could happen a few times in one pull too. As a warrior with only bandages, I got killed quite a few times, but it was challenging in a good way.

Intrepid has said they don't like the drinking/ eating mechanic between pulls, and I agree. I do like it when you have to be careful about how you aggro mobs in an area tho, and pulling more than one or two should be a scary experience, but possible if you use cooldowns.

Ravudha

Instead of thinking about how often the content makes players die, I think it's more important that the cause of death provide the necessary feedback for players to learn from dying and get better.

That way, players can think of death as something manageable and within their control rather.

Maezriel

I don't like the drinking/eating concept for just solo leveling mobs. It's not really a challenge so much as it's just a test of patience which I don't like. I'm fine w/ things taking time to work towards, but I want to be able to actively do something while working towards it.

Honestly, deaths should come down to the player. Think Dark Souls (obviously not as brutal) but a new player can expect to die a fair number of times due to just not knowing monster mechanics and the like...however an experienced player should be able to be challenged, but not overly burdened.

FliP

It depends on the player.

Someone that is new to MMOs and doesn't know how to play will die once every 10 minutes.

Experienced players might not even die once in a day.

Say, if you're Lv30 and played the game the game intended you to play it, you should have no issues wiping a Lv30 mob. A lv33 mob could potentially cause you problems depending on your skill, a Lv37 mob could kill you in 3 hits.

Wandering Mist

Ravudha wrote: »

Instead of thinking about how often the content makes players die, I think it's more important that the cause of death provide the necessary feedback for players to learn from dying and get better.

That way, players can think of death as something manageable and within their control rather.

I 100% agree with this.

Dygz

I usually don't worry much about dying too often in PvE.
In PvE, dying too often typically means I should gain a level or two elsewhere and return. Or... I should swap my gear and return.

Leiloni

I think you also need to consider the current death penalties, which are rather harsh. You're not supposed to be dying too often in PvE and the death penalties serve as an incentive to be careful and avoid it. They also serve as an incentive to fight back in a PvP fight to reduce penalties since you're more likely to die in PvP vs PvE.

So in PvE, I think unless you bite off more than you can chew, you're not likely to die. But if say you pull too many mobs, yes you might die. But at least the player can choose to avoid that by fighting single, near-level mobs (or, playing in groups so you can play safer and/or pull more).

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_death

Experience debt (negative experience).[4]
Skill and stat dampening.[3]
Lower health and mana.[3]
Lower gear proficiency.[3]
Reduction in drop rates from monsters.[5]
Durability loss.[3]
Dropping a percentage of carried gatherables and processed goods.[6][3]
This includes a percentage of items carried on the player's mule.[7]
This also includes a percentage of the certificates a player is carrying.[8]

Nagash

One can never die to much its getting back up that matters

Khronus

I'm assuming dying ever in PVE (not counting raiding) would be unacceptable imo. If they make the content too difficult, I will go off the rails pk'ing you all at the right moment. I enjoy Escape from tarkov and hunt showdown for this reason haha.

Percimes

I don't expect to die that much while playing solo. You can easily evaluate when things go sour and run away.

In group people tend to want to go fast and pull pull pull! Cutting corners and leaving some group of enemies if they can get to the boss without kill them. Things can turn bad pretty fast.

I could go levels in WoW vanilla/classic without dying so long as I was soloing, and die a few time in one single dungeon while in group.

Nagash

Khronus wrote: »

I'm assuming dying ever in PVE (not counting raiding) would be unacceptable imo. If they make the content too difficult, I will go off the rails pk'ing you all at the right moment. I enjoy Escape from tarkov and hunt showdown for this reason haha.

oh come now everyone has died at least once to mobs in there MMO life

Dygz

Leiloni wrote: »

I think you also need to consider the current death penalties, which are rather harsh. You're not supposed to be dying too often in PvE and the death penalties serve as an incentive to be careful and avoid it. They also serve as an incentive to fight back in a PvP fight to reduce penalties since you're more likely to die in PvP vs PvE.

Ashes death penalties are not harsher than vanilla EQ and EQ2.
They don't work as an incentive for me to fight back in non-consensual PvP combat.
Either I'm in the mood for PvP combat or I'm not. If I die so often from non-consensual PvP combat that I' become concerned about the death penalties, it will mean that the Corruption mechanic has failed and I will simply rage quit the game.

Marcet

You should die when being in a zone over your lvl, when soloing elites, when pulling too much and of course when wiping on bosses. People is not gonna go crazy PKing each other all the time, thats gonna happen very ocasionally when doing lvling quests. If you are lvl 40 and doing lvl 40 quests, you should need some health potion every now and then, food wouldnt be bad too.

I like challenging PvE that makes you use your resources and if you are not careful, die.

Warth

Death should occur when you screw up. Not by an arbitrary number of expected deaths / hour.
The important thing is, that these death occur through the mistake of the player, not a couple of bad crit rolls by the monster.

Screwing up could relate to the lack of knowledge regarding a certain type of enemy, mistakes in the monster(s) you pull, the direction you kite or the failed mechanics.

What the game doesn't need, are mobs with mechanics, that can very well be ignored, as they don't take even a 1/10 of your healthbar.

If a mob explodes a couple of second after reaching 20% HP, then the player should be expected to get out of the way or get very close to dying.
If a Minotaur monster charger at you, you will either the get the hell out of his charge path or get close to dying.

TL/DR A game doesn't need random chances of dying to keep it interesting. Just make the mechanics given to the monster impactful. Make the player suffer the consequences of not playing the game properly.

Dygz

Being in a zone over your level should not inhrently cause someone to die.
Soloing elites, sure.
Pulling too many mobs, sure.

I frequently explore zones over my level.
But, I typically do that via Stealth as a Druid.
So, I'm "invisible" and using some form of SoW.
Sure, at some point, I hit areas where mobs con as skulls or ?? and I have to make a run for it, then wait for my next ding.
Right now, I'm playing a Pally in Shadowlands. With the current level scaling outleveling zones aren't really a thing, but I use Divine Shield and/or Shield of Vengence if I need to book it out of a sketchy situation.

Vanilla EQ taught me how to pull strategically and to keep my back to a wall as much as possible to avoid adds creeping up from behind.
So, yes...typically a death or two in a new situation teaches you how to deal with the new tactics or new environment.
In WoW, I think my Feral Druid does not have an ability that interrupts spell-casting. At least, I have never thought about it in all the years of playing WoW. My Rogue has the Kick ability, which specifically interrupts spellcasting. I love waiting until a Mage starts casting before triggering that ability. I think the closest my Pally has to that is Hammer of Justice, but I use that whenever I need a stun, regardless of spellcasting.
Finding new strategies for new circumstances or successfully using well-tested (self-discovered) strategies for familiar circumstances is part of the fun. Regardless of the actual death penalties...losing a fight/not completing the quest... is penalty enough for me.

But, yeah...once my armor breaks and becomes useless, I know it's time to upgrade my gear or go find a less challenging mob or gain a level or two and come back later.

Child Item