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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Dying in PvE, how often is too often?
neuroguy
Member, Alpha Two
I'm curious how frequently people think they should die in PvE environments. During solo questing for example, taking on content meant for your level range, I would still like to die once every 1-3 hours without being overly risky. I also like the slightly slower and more dangerous feel of the world that vanilla WoW provided vs something like BDO. In BDO I kind of feel overpowered (I have not reached end-game) and it's not really a matter of can I kill the mobs, but rather, how efficiently can I do it. How many can I farm at once sort of deal which has its charm and appeal but isn't as fun or challenging in my eyes. In contrast, in classic WoW I had to think about what HP/mana justified sitting down to eat/drink or bandage and how to recover/sort out my resources before any pull. And each pull was a bit scary, you had to be mindful of re-spawns, agro radius etc. This was a lot more enjoyable for me and was more humbling than BDO. The only issue I can see with this is the open world PvP can make an already challenging PvE environment nightmarish (specifically with stealth classes haha) but honestly, personally I love that.
I still very much would prefer a slower farming sort of gameplay where each pull was more dangerous but rewarding and I had to do some level of prep (drinking to get mana back) after a couple of pulls. I think how AoC deals with death in solo PvE environments will also be very telling of how group PvE content is meant to be approached. I think for truly difficult PvE group content (raids dungeons etc), the game needs to be friendly to death and if players have no real experience with it while solo question/farming then I think it would be a mistake.
Would love to hear people's opinions on how PvE death should be handled, and how frequently it should occur, particularly in the absence of PvP. And I'd also like to hear if the open world aspect of the game changes the desired PvE danger dynamic for you, as in if you think PvE should be easier since the game is open world PvP or something.
I still very much would prefer a slower farming sort of gameplay where each pull was more dangerous but rewarding and I had to do some level of prep (drinking to get mana back) after a couple of pulls. I think how AoC deals with death in solo PvE environments will also be very telling of how group PvE content is meant to be approached. I think for truly difficult PvE group content (raids dungeons etc), the game needs to be friendly to death and if players have no real experience with it while solo question/farming then I think it would be a mistake.
Would love to hear people's opinions on how PvE death should be handled, and how frequently it should occur, particularly in the absence of PvP. And I'd also like to hear if the open world aspect of the game changes the desired PvE danger dynamic for you, as in if you think PvE should be easier since the game is open world PvP or something.
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For me, a non ez mob is when the TTK is 45+ seconds without using too much MP.
I think we should try to suggest what is an acceptable challenge when a player takes reasonable actions instead of Leroying it.
I have not found challenging overland mobs for solo XP since L2.
In any other game I feel overpowered as well when I solo and still get good returns and xp.
Exactly. It depends on how you play, where you're playing, what you're doing, how well you're doing it, how much effort you're putting in, how distracted you are when doing it, whether or not there's someone else there who wants to stop you doing it, etc.
There are probably a lot of variables.
I prefer the FFXI end of the spectrum. It is part of the reason I often spend time on FFXI private servers. You can't do anything alone, and everything you do feels like a major accomplishment. I don't know where AOC will end up on the spectrum. I would like to see it lean towards: You can barley solo regular mobs, you need a full group to fight elites. I am sure others world prefer the wow style, you can kill groups of regular mobs and solo most normal elites.
The reason why I prefer mobs to be harder is because it encourages grouping and socialization. I would meet new people everyday in FFXI. In wow I could run 20 dungeons in a day and not meet a single new person.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
Solo questing I would only expect to die if I screw up badly. While learning top end raiding though, if I am not being killed at least every 5 minutes, the content isn't hard enough.
Intrepid has said they don't like the drinking/ eating mechanic between pulls, and I agree. I do like it when you have to be careful about how you aggro mobs in an area tho, and pulling more than one or two should be a scary experience, but possible if you use cooldowns.
That way, players can think of death as something manageable and within their control rather.
Honestly, deaths should come down to the player. Think Dark Souls (obviously not as brutal) but a new player can expect to die a fair number of times due to just not knowing monster mechanics and the like...however an experienced player should be able to be challenged, but not overly burdened.
Someone that is new to MMOs and doesn't know how to play will die once every 10 minutes.
Experienced players might not even die once in a day.
Say, if you're Lv30 and played the game the game intended you to play it, you should have no issues wiping a Lv30 mob. A lv33 mob could potentially cause you problems depending on your skill, a Lv37 mob could kill you in 3 hits.
Eternal Guild
( Web | Discord )
I 100% agree with this.
In PvE, dying too often typically means I should gain a level or two elsewhere and return. Or... I should swap my gear and return.
So in PvE, I think unless you bite off more than you can chew, you're not likely to die. But if say you pull too many mobs, yes you might die. But at least the player can choose to avoid that by fighting single, near-level mobs (or, playing in groups so you can play safer and/or pull more).
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_death
In group people tend to want to go fast and pull pull pull! Cutting corners and leaving some group of enemies if they can get to the boss without kill them. Things can turn bad pretty fast.
I could go levels in WoW vanilla/classic without dying so long as I was soloing, and die a few time in one single dungeon while in group.
oh come now everyone has died at least once to mobs in there MMO life
They don't work as an incentive for me to fight back in non-consensual PvP combat.
Either I'm in the mood for PvP combat or I'm not. If I die so often from non-consensual PvP combat that I' become concerned about the death penalties, it will mean that the Corruption mechanic has failed and I will simply rage quit the game.
I like challenging PvE that makes you use your resources and if you are not careful, die.
The important thing is, that these death occur through the mistake of the player, not a couple of bad crit rolls by the monster.
Screwing up could relate to the lack of knowledge regarding a certain type of enemy, mistakes in the monster(s) you pull, the direction you kite or the failed mechanics.
What the game doesn't need, are mobs with mechanics, that can very well be ignored, as they don't take even a 1/10 of your healthbar.
If a mob explodes a couple of second after reaching 20% HP, then the player should be expected to get out of the way or get very close to dying.
If a Minotaur monster charger at you, you will either the get the hell out of his charge path or get close to dying.
TL/DR A game doesn't need random chances of dying to keep it interesting. Just make the mechanics given to the monster impactful. Make the player suffer the consequences of not playing the game properly.
Soloing elites, sure.
Pulling too many mobs, sure.
I frequently explore zones over my level.
But, I typically do that via Stealth as a Druid.
So, I'm "invisible" and using some form of SoW.
Sure, at some point, I hit areas where mobs con as skulls or ?? and I have to make a run for it, then wait for my next ding.
Right now, I'm playing a Pally in Shadowlands. With the current level scaling outleveling zones aren't really a thing, but I use Divine Shield and/or Shield of Vengence if I need to book it out of a sketchy situation.
Vanilla EQ taught me how to pull strategically and to keep my back to a wall as much as possible to avoid adds creeping up from behind.
So, yes...typically a death or two in a new situation teaches you how to deal with the new tactics or new environment.
In WoW, I think my Feral Druid does not have an ability that interrupts spell-casting. At least, I have never thought about it in all the years of playing WoW. My Rogue has the Kick ability, which specifically interrupts spellcasting. I love waiting until a Mage starts casting before triggering that ability. I think the closest my Pally has to that is Hammer of Justice, but I use that whenever I need a stun, regardless of spellcasting.
Finding new strategies for new circumstances or successfully using well-tested (self-discovered) strategies for familiar circumstances is part of the fun. Regardless of the actual death penalties...losing a fight/not completing the quest... is penalty enough for me.
But, yeah...once my armor breaks and becomes useless, I know it's time to upgrade my gear or go find a less challenging mob or gain a level or two and come back later.
EQ is debatable, EQ2 is not.
Ashes is much more harsh.
Perhaps to refine my question, I would ask, what play style would you like to be valid or would you personally choose to engage with in a solo PvE environment? Completely safe where you never really die or are in danger of dying? Or some risk where you need to be careful and thoughtful about your pulls, enemy mob patrol patterns etc where you may die once in a while? Or straight up dark souls haha.
And although I agree with and recognize the perspective of @Ravudha and @Wandering Mist , I do also think it is fine for some deaths to be just bad RNG or luck where it's not really anything you can learn other than just shrugging and thinking "wow, what are the chances?". In general though yes absolutely, deaths should occur because you do not have the knowledge or failed to mechanically dodge or avoid attacks like @wrath suggested but I think having a pack respawn on you when you were about to sit down to heal up after a few chain pulls should be potentially lethal.
Personally I would like the PvE leveling environment to be dangerous enough where I have to pay attention and if I get a bit too careless or reckless (which will happen once every few hours I'm guesstimating) I should find myself dead because the PvE content is hard enough to be able to punish me.
Although this may not be popular, I am a bit sad there is no eating/drinking down time every couple of pulls (according to @McShave ). I don't think it's just a time sink, I think it adds a decision point, especially in an open world PvP game of how much risk am I willing to take with my health and mana resources. I could be more efficient and pull mobs with half HP knowing I can take them on comfortably or take a few seconds to eat and drink in case I get ganked. Hope that clarifies a bit what I was thinking.
It should be practical, rebuff and bring MP back to safe levels.
A chance for friends to relax from button mashing and have deeper talks for a few minutes.
I am not sure what eat drink means. I dont want it to be actual gameplay, food minigame, as it goes against relaxing.
I rly dont know what is meant by it.
Vanilla EQ2 saw you go in to experience debt, 50% of which was recovered if you picked up your "shard". This experience debt did have a skill point reduction associated with it, but skills on EQ2 were never utilized properly (which is why they removed them), and so this never had any real impact.
The only other aspect to it was a small coin penalty in the form of gear degradation.
Fairly light death penalty, really.
Ashes has that same experience debt penalty, with associated stat skill and HP/mana loss.
Ashes also has similar gear degradation.
Even just at this point the two games are equal. But then you have to figure in the lack of means by which to gain back half of your experience debt, and Ashes is already harsher.
Then you have to factor in that you will drop a percentage of harvests and certificates on death - something EQ2 has no analogy of.
I'm not sure how you can say they are equal, to be honest.
I was thinking about WoW (vanilla) when I said that. Eating food would recover HP and drinking would recover mana. So you would eat and drink for a few seconds to recover HP and mana and like you said, have some down time to chat with the guildies, look through menus etc.
Pressure mounts when you die multiple times in an hour or multiple times in a 30 minute time span.
How one feels about that will depend on cost to repair and/or recover items and time lost to xp debt.
How much time do I want to waste trying to successfully complete this quest now, when I could be more productive elsewhere?
Why not both?
I think the goal is for the player to learn how to make each adventuring spot safe.
For me, the goal is to learn how to use the skills and abilities I have chosen to represent my individual character's personality/theme/background to make each adventuring spot a safe place to level.
But...sometimes I level by swimming around continents - those coasts frequently have no hostile mobs.
I'm not sure what you mean by bad RNG where it's not really anything you can learn.
That typically comes into play with relatively high risk challenges. An example of high risk challenge with regard to RNG is fighting higher level mobs before learning their tactics. If I'm fighting a same level mob after I've learned its tactics, I should probably not be dying from bad RNG. Especially not multiple times in an hour.
A pack should not randomly respawn from bad RNG. And...one should be able to learn to move from the respawn point to a safer area immediately after battle - or, better yet, learn to pull the battle to a safe spot where it's possible to place your back to a wall to avoid adds and respawns.
If you want danger, it's easy enough to create danger.
Every time I level, the first thing I do is explore as far as possible to uncover as much of the map as possible until the mobs are so high that they can see through my Stealth and insta-kill me.
Easy enough to try to sneak through high(er) level lairs, or sneak past dungeon/raid bosses.
You don't have to be safe if you don't want to be safe.
I think eating and drinking needs to have enough animation that people enjoy using it for RP.
Most of the time, when I am with a group in MMORPGs, the other players just want to speed through as many battles as they possibly can in their play sessions. They would much rather down an insta-heal potion than "waste" time RPing having a meal. And, if I'm solo, there just is not enough difference in the animation or effects of eating Halfling Sticky Buns vs eating Elven Vegetable Stew for me to care about RPing it (even if I'm Twitch streaming or recording for YouTube).
These days, I'm in some form of voice communication with other players, there's no need for "down time" just to chat. And, we could camp at any safe spot to browse menus without needing to eat or drink - just because we want to take a break or because we want to RP camping...without mechanically needing to eat or drink.
The way that was forced 20 years ago was just needlessly tedious. Really only acceptable because it was just cool to be able to play an RPG with a bunch of other people whenever you had time, rather than being stuck not being able to play with others for weeks because schedules are too difficult to coordinate.
Also, death shard recovery could be compounded.
So it balances out.
"Your bags themselves will not drop; only some of the coins you've got on you (used to be 40% per death I think) and possibly one of the unbound (still tradeable/still attuneable) drops in your bags.
Nagafen will be free trade, so quest rewards like armor or weapons are likely to be tradeable and hence droppable if you're killed in PvP.
If you get a good loot drop or some money you don't want to lose, portal home to Qeynos or Freeport and bank it. Those are the 2 safe cities where PvP is to be disabled, supposedly.
And be grateful this time around, younguns, because in previous versions of EQ2 PvP servers, towns were not safe zones, and many's the player who fell victim to a "gank at the bank" and lost stuff just as he/she was desperately trying to bank it. Also, we used to get ganked trying to craft, too.
Heck, in the earliest days, enemies could follow you into your house and gank you!"
https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq2/index.php?threads/pvp-server-will-be-loot-on-death.588375/
Not sure where to begin with this.
First of all, you are talking about PvP death poenalty in a thread on PvE deaths
Second, you said vanilla EQ2 - there was no PvP in vanilla EQ2.
Third, the thread you linked was from 2019, a far cry from 2004 when EQ2 was released.
Fourth, experience debt in Ashes will stack.
As usual, you are missing the point, and trying to make it up as you go.
There were PvP servers in vanilla EQ2, just as there were PvP servers in vanilla EQ.
The posted thread is from 2019, but talks about old school EQ2 looting vs current EQ2 looting.
Again, you have poor reading comprehension.
Experience debt always stacks as far as I'm concerned.
As usual, you are missing the point...arguing just to argue...and not just trying, but actually are making shit up as you go.
In EQ and EQ2, I had to worry about getting ganked and having items and gear and coin looted.
In Ashes, I only ever have to worry about some resources dropping.
Notice now, since you failed to before, that the post I replied to mentions the death penalty in Ashes as incentive to fight back in PvP combat.
"They also serve as an incentive to fight back in a PvP fight to reduce penalties since you're more likely to die in PvP vs PvE."
Again, I'm done.
You can win if you need to win.