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Continuing to gain experience at max level

One of the lame things about getting to the max level in most games is that now you no longer gain experience from monsters and the game becomes only about obtaining items and/or gold. These are just my thoughts on the various ways of approaching it

1 - The diablo 3 approach of introducing a 2nd kind of level, what they called "paragon levels". Continuing to gain levels at the relatively same pace which only unlock 5 raw stat bonuses per level. I actually favor this approach the most, but I think the "paragon" levels should take way way way WAAAAAY longer than normal levels took to gain levelling.

Like I think the first paragon level should take a comparable amount of time to at least TWICE as long as it takes to level all the way from 1 to the max level COMBINED. To the point where it really would become way too absurd to form exp parties and specifically grind to reach the next paragon level, but still at the point where long enough players of the game will inevitably EVENTUALLY reach the next levels.

And on a slightly tangential note, I think levelling in practically every game is way way way way waaay too fast, period. and I'm not talking like every modern game, of course those are, but I'm talking like classic WoW warrior levelling is still about 100x too fast IMO.

Getting to max level in a game should be at LEAST a 1 and a half to 2 year grind for the "average" hardcore player, and more like a 5 to 10 year journey for most "average" mmo players. I want gaining a single level to be taking at LEAST multiple weeks in the middle level ranges, and more like 1 or 2 months or more per level at the highest levels.

That's all kind beside the point though.

2 - Just introducing some sort of exp-based reward mechanic. Exp could be built up and exchanged for items or goods nor gold or quest points or whatever, but not used for actually gaining any more levels of any kind.

3 - Something else happens instead of exp. Perhaps monsters will drop more gold per kill or have high item drop rate chances, or will now drop some new token item that can be built up and exchanged to enter battlefields or something, who knows.

4 - Or of course you could just do nothing, and people get to the max level and now they just don't get any exp and nothing else happens.

Comments

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Any experience you gain also gains experience for the node whose ZoI you are in.

    As far as I am concerned, that is enough.
  • TruthfoolTruthfool Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    hi there,
    While I understand your idea, I believe it would need some kind of a reset or limitation. Otherwhise it would be a deterrent in the long run for newcomers that could never hope to achieve a lvl comparable to "the old gamers". Maybe if the storyline makes soft or hard resets of servers (invasions from the ancients for instance?). another way could be to apply the second layer of lvl up to some of the pve content (like non raid bosses or instances)? But even so It could bring people to a ridiculous powerlevel that can result in a farming power breaking economy.
    I think that the leveling should be a rather long process if it is journey that bonds you to the game. I believe Ashes of Creation will be rather good with that if they stay true to ideas they already mentioned like :
    - crafting is going to need a long time to level
    - Alternate character will take the same amount of time to level up
    However players need a sense of self progression that is frequent enough. So years long to lvl up would seem to me as too hardcore.

    Xp gain has many forms beyond character's lvl which should act as a:
    - you will need to keep your powerlevel through the power struggles (castle, elections, economic warfare). These are better target in my opinion
    - you will need to keep the node Xp if the mantenance of nodes is implemented which I belive will be (it's a ressources sink)
    - you will need to repair items and get the better gear


    Best Regards
    T.
    Eldritch Harbingers
    We follow the truth of the True gods, wherever she leads us
  • I liked the way they did it in Star Trek Online, where you would carry on gaining XP, but you just didn't rank up until they raised the level cap. Then, once the level cap increased, your built-up XP would take you to your new rank, whatever that may be.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
  • Just my opinion, but I like a hard cap so I can eventually get the sense of completion. So I know the hamster wheel has ended and I can focus on other goals like things for the Guild or Node or IRL I don't mind the hard cap being raised due to expansions by another 10 levels, because that comes with exciting quests and story line advancement, but in the end it's still a hard cap. Anyway, not saying it's the best way but that's my vote.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Ashes is not just about gaining adventurer experience and/or crafter experience.
    There is also, Node xp, social org xp and religious xp. And, we can strive to gain augments from most of those categories in order to adjust the way we choose to perform in combat.
  • KhronusKhronus Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I like the idea of gaining experience while you are at max level. Aside from farming, something is taken away from killing mobs while at max level. I wouldn't be against a sort of paragon style of progression but NOT to add stats to your character. I want pvp and pve balanced with everyone being on the same playing field where your guild and community are what makes or breaks the content.

    Maybe cosmetic unlocks? Pet unlocks? Something having to do with artisan path perks that don't break the system. Anything but the obvious stat increase which just causes some people to become addicted to play more to be "the best" when that shouldn't be a possibility in the first place.
  • MichaelMichael Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Khronus wrote: »
    Maybe cosmetic unlocks? Pet unlocks? Something having to do with artisan path perks that don't break the system. Anything but the obvious stat increase which just causes some people to become addicted to play more to be "the best" when that shouldn't be a possibility in the first place.
    I agree with this. Have some sort of "Prestige" ranking or level which is purely for cosmetics, achievements, easter eggs, etc... Having a hard cap to it would be nice as well, and it could continuously be raised to add more rewards to the most dedicated of players.

    If progression is capped in one way or another, at least make it viable to only play a single character. One thing I dislike that may be sort of off-topic now, is how there is a large benefit that comes with hitting max level with multiple characters. I personally prefer to play on one character for the duration of an MMO. Especially with having the ability to really fulfill any role in a way with how secondary classes will work.
  • KhronusKhronus Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @Michael I'm in a bit of a bind when it comes to playing only one character. As a guild leader, to be most effective in my role, I need to be on my main organizing content/proving my worth as a main tank. At most, I would have a second character (summoner/cleric) but there would always be a feeling of "I should be on my main" in the back of my mind. I realize it's a game and I should do what I want but being a successful guild for my players is my top concern.

    I think you are onto something with the easter egg suggestion. What if we all experience the lore together but those that prestige get to experience easter eggs to said lore. Special cut scenes maybe? Cut content revealed? Behind the scenes stuff possibly. That would be a unique thing.
  • PlagueMonkPlagueMonk Member
    edited December 2020
    It sounds like what you want is lateral progression instead of perpetual vertical progression. (I prefer the former as well since i hate perpetual gear grind)

    MMOs like DAoC, WAR (Warhammer Online) and ESO are excellent examples of this. You hit the level cap but can then deepen your character with alternate leveling systems that give you small bonuses to various things.

    The only problem with this is, you need to be done leveling. Period. If I'm not mistaken though, I believe they plan on raising the level cap periodically, much like WoW, which I think is a mistake. The two systems don't really work well together so you either need to choose 1 progression system
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  • ILLPeonUILLPeonU Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    This is where a game like DAoC had it right, while your level was maxed out, you then worked on Reaml Rank if you were interested. And that would take years to complete. Now in this game perhaps they could have a few different types for those that didn't want to PvP.
    "Don't Pee in the Wind"
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    PlagueMonk wrote: »
    It sounds like what you want is lateral progression instead of perpetual horizontal progression. (I prefer the former as well since i hate perpetual gear grind)
    What is the difference between lateral progression and horizontal progression?

  • RavudhaRavudha Member
    edited December 2020
    Xez wrote: »
    Getting to max level in a game should be at LEAST a 1 and a half to 2 year grind for the "average" hardcore player, and more like a 5 to 10 year journey for most "average" mmo players. I want gaining a single level to be taking at LEAST multiple weeks in the middle level ranges, and more like 1 or 2 months or more per level at the highest levels.

    I'm also open to levelling taking a very very long time, but not if it's through actual grinding. If an MMORPG makes you grind mobs for weeks/months on end to level, it is very poorly designed. I'd rather hit max level and do other things in the game because it's far more interesting and rewarding.

    Grinding to level is acceptable in action RPGs like Diablo because they really don't have much else to lean on - they're 95% fcused on action combat and 5% RPG. In an MMORPG, if there was a way to expand questing, exploration, NPC interaction, crafting etc. to make levelling take much longer, I'd get behind that - i.e. you know the player who is max level has really seen the world and done some epic stuff.

    Edit: for now, I'm happy to hit max level and park there because it sounds like there will be a lot of other stuff to keep busy with.
  • YuyukoyayYuyukoyay Member
    edited December 2020
    Crafting being a big focus of the game kind of solves this issue though. Even in Classic WoW getting to level 60 was the beginning of where the true game begins. There you would max your professions, amass consumables for raids and dungeons. Do all of the quests you needed to access everything you needed to. Get the gear you needed to not get absolutely destroyed in raids.

    I like there being an end eventually, but WoW did not have a crafting focus. The end to Ashes might take a lot longer than most MMO's due to that alone. Just because you can't level anymore doesn't mean you have done everything there is to do in the game though.

    There could even be level down features so you can do content you already outleveled without absolutely destroying it due to being too high of a level. There is all sorts of other things to look into other than level cap. I have no idea how strong the mobs are going to be, how long the quests are going to take, how many quests there are, and how much exp a quest gives.. So it could take a super long time, but we have no idea yet.

    I personally like how vanilla WoW was. Not classic because vanilla took longer. Dungeons were giving too much experience in classic, but they didn't in vanilla. There wasn't enough quests to get to max level so you had to find your own way there. It gave purpose to actually leveling the professions with your level. As opposed to not doing them until max level because they wasted time like now.

    Lineage 2 was very similar to that as well. Just with more consumables as part of your normal rotations and other crazy crap. xD Though a ton of people just ran leveling bots so it wasn't really comparable.
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  • PlagueMonkPlagueMonk Member
    edited December 2020
    Dygz wrote: »
    PlagueMonk wrote: »
    It sounds like what you want is lateral progression instead of perpetual horizontal progression. (I prefer the former as well since i hate perpetual gear grind)
    What is the difference between lateral progression and horizontal progression?
    Vertical Progression is gaining levels. You go up a level you gain new major abilities, all your stats increase, etc.

    Lateral progression broadens and deepens what you already have. It has points associated with it separate from the horizontal progression but works along side it in tandem. As you level up this system you gain a separate pool of points that can be spent on very small upgrades. Say a .3% crit melee crit chance or an extra 20 personal armor, +3 Stamina, etc.

    Taking ESO as an example, they use the Champion System and you can earn a max of 810 pts. You earn these along side your normal levels but only by doing certain things. Once you cap you will continue to earn champion points but will need to do things to progress it (so just going out an killing mobs will not advance it). I believe The champion system has something over 200 separate abilities you can invest and re-invest in (so you could continue to to invest in melee crit and with 3 levels you would get +1%)

    It doesn't seem like much but they can add up to making a noticeable difference over time. These abilities are also always passive additions. It keeps players feeling they are progressing without the need for a significant power boost like raising the leveling cap and making that end game content obsolete. The Lateral System will help make those difficult tasks a bit easier without rendering them worthless.
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited December 2020
    Going up is vertical progression.
    Horizontal/Lateral is broad or wide.
    Vertical is steep or deep.
  • KatakKatak Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Dygz wrote: »
    Going up is vertical progression.
    Horizontal/Lateral is broad or wide.
    Vertical is steep or deep.

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  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Here at 1:06:00 they answer this question.
    That said I like how rift does it with a secondary tree set that gives small bonuses based on how you do fill them out. +1 intelligence so forth so it is not over whelming but still get a little bit of lateral progression. They also add this after launch so to avoid scope creep


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WQ_BBwK5LA
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I would rather just have something like this:
    isjfsyZ.png

    A system where the grind is so incredible that capping is more of a long term idea than an expectation. I know this is not for everyone. I just like a good grind. I also like systems like this because they weed out all of the casuals, and they are very unfriendly to alts.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • This is sorta off topic but:

    I feel like levels are basically meaningless because of how quickly they are gained, because every game must submit to the lowest common denominator of human tolerance of perceived productivity. The vast majority of people simply will not play a game where levels take as long as I think they need to take to make levels in an MMO actually MEANINGFUL, and not just some relative marker whether or not you're still a noob.

    Random thought: 1 to 2 years should be the timeframe it takes MINIMUM to level to max level. I think 3 hours a day of actual serious productive grinding time is about a reasonable time amount for the "average" to semi-hardcore mmo player to be willing to invest in levelling before their eyes and brains being to glaze over and serious real-life morality issues arise, with that perhaps being 0 hours some days and perhaps twice that on weekends, averaging out again to about 3.

    Thats about 90 hours a month. ~1000 hours a year, that's a lotta hours that can be distributed among (50? or 100 levels?) . And I'm just talking STRAIGHT hardcore ACTUAL time spent grinding not-afk, not even INCLUDING other gameplay time. Most games take a few weeks maximum to get to max level, no? Can people name some games where the levelling process is more than a few weeks tops for hardcore players?

    Diablo 2 comes to mind but it's only like the last couple levels in particular only because none of the monsters in the game are high enough level, not that the numbers explode too exponentially.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    "The developers anticipate max level should be attainable in approximately 45 days if you play roughly 4-6 hours per day"

    That is very respectable given the current MMO landscape. The thing is... 4-6 of whos hours? The average player? What if my hours are 1.5x more efficient than the average player. I would be on me that I could be capped in 15-20days based on their estimates.

    15-20 days. I can't think of a MMO that came out in the last 15 years that takes me that long to cap.

    On one had its kinda exciting because I want to speed run it. Maybe take a week or two off work and see if I can get it down to 10 days. The only flaw in all of this napkin math is that it will be very node dependent at launch. People like me might be waiting around for node progress to give us access to mobs that are worth farming.

    Personally I think six months to a year at 4 hours a day would be better. You would still have people putting in 16 hours a day and getting it done in 3 months.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    The only flaw in all of this napkin math is that it will be very node dependent at launch. People like me might be waiting around for node progress to give us access to mobs that are worth farming.
    Yeah, I think this will be the biggest issue with speed leveling at launch.

    In order to be successful, I think you would need to have around 300 people that are well organized and all taking a few weeks off work.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Noaani wrote: »
    In order to be successful, I think you would need to have around 300 people that are well organized and all taking a few weeks off work.

    I am betting by time beta rolls around people will be setting up a dedicated node rush.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    Going up is vertical progression.
    Horizontal/Lateral is broad or wide.
    Vertical is steep or deep.

    :o apologies, I wrote that when I was severely sleep compromised.

    The previous posts have been corrected.
    isFikWd2_o.jpg
  • I don't see a need for paragon levels or anything. Deal with it. Eventually you hit the max level. Maybe level a new char. Do something else. Play a different game
  • I think exp should considered as consumable resourse as well, so while at max lvl (we know that you cant delevel) exp death penalties would be relevant, killing mobs and getting exp would be relevant as well. I think something in terms of using exp to gamble on getting random augments for skills could be one of exp sinks in the game.
  • I was thinking of something similar, (with it being account wide) where players get a skill point for each level up after level 50, max level. Anything that increases stat points are mostly likely a no.

    With X amount of the skill point items players can trade them to a npc for consumable items, all are account bound.

    At least several tiers of cosmetic items.
    Exp booster
    Magic find booster
    Consumable item to increase religion progression
    Consumable item to increase social organization (Scholar's academy, Thieves' guild, Trader company) progression
  • BlightEmpireBlightEmpire Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Im torn.... I think a HARD cap is a necessary component, However even with trying to level up the things mentioned in the video above. Relgion, artisan skills, im sure most people wanna level these up anyway. But I feel that exp should still be gainable from monsters. Even if they dont do anything with it for awhile. I think it should be stored that hey i have.... i dunno 10million exp over level 50 and down the road do somthing with it. Im not saying use it retroactively to hit 60 that would take away to me. But add in a exp shop of some kind for cosmetics and other items that wont take away from the game.

    I believe all other systems talked about are outside of exp. So i hope to see a interesting fair system for cosmetics or extra growth come along. And i honestly wouldnt mind a boosted level system. AKA paragon. Lets be real for a minute people talk about how some people, they want a solid level playing field for newer players. That wont happen. If you try to start out on a server lets say 6 months after launch. Unless you join a bigger group or stay alone and don't try to compete. You will never catch up not without equal time or better and even then those people who are 6 months ahead WILL ALWAYS BE 6 months ahead unless they quit. So the solution and ideas with exp based on the new players. Shouldn't be very relevant its a discussion on what the players who have played gotten to level 50 wanna see done. off topic a second but i foresee intrepid needing to open up a new server yearly as a fresh start or ever 2 anyway. The problem at that point after hitting 50 is gear. Anyone who has been earnest and played hard has earned high level gear that noobs cant compete with. Probley. So if you regularly play and farm exp a lot. I dont have a problem with you getting a "small" stat boost or bonus skill point. Look if you spent lets say... 3 months playing to earn level 50 as a example, and you then had to spend 1month or 2 to hit "Paragon" 1 or somthing and it was either a small boost or a few skill points as a boost i dont forsee it breaking anything immediately and it could all be adjusted a lot of ways

    Summary
    Paragon system could be explored to a SMALL amount.
    Id be perfectly fine with cosmetic rewards based on XP acquisition after cap
    Id like to see a interesting alternate way to use it, perhaps have it go toward a artisan skill or a religion, college, military, economy, not to node progression but furthering your reputation/rank as a personal level.
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