Thanks, I'd see that video, and it's actually unrelated to what we're talking about. The activity-awakening-monsters that then attack our nodes is a great dynamic to have in the game. What OP mentioned and what I think is an interesting compliment to that dynamic is what happens outside of our nodes --> ie how do beastie populations react/grow when there is little activity? For example, wouldn't it make sense that the further from a node you go, the more mobs there are? if you go far enough from a node, couldn't a species develop a strong footing there, become territorial and defensive of their hunting lands? If left unchecked, do they start to creep into our node, attack caravans, farms, and even make travel dangerous for our lower level friends?
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Again, this is talking about what happens within nodes. It was about one sentence from Steven, just referencing that mobs will change within a node as that node develops.
What are your thought on the topic discussed in this thread?
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Ok im lost what is the topic then?
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
and why is your idea better than what we have already?
It is way better for you to address your concerns than for me to repeat what I've already stated in this thread. My stance on why I think this would be a good addition to the game is pretty clear already.
I don't have concerns I'm just tired of people who join wanting the game to do what they say when the devs have laid out their plans form day one
And I'm tired of people having the need to jump into discussions without even touching the topic at hand. Whats the point? If you don't like a thread or an idea, don't get involved. Or at least give reasons to why you don't like it if you end up writing something. You speaking for the devs makes no sense.
Im not speaking for the devs I'm just repeating what they have said
Give a link to what they have said then. Plus why have a forum if the devs aren't interested in reading it? They are even asking for feedback and have said they are willing to and welcome ideas.
Ok here you go
and the devs want feedback not changes with out proof
My suggestion does not alter the max allowed Metropolis nodes. I have even stated that I don't think NPC nodes should reach level 6 unless it really makes sense to do so. And if an NPC Node actually gets to level 6, then it would take the place of player ran nodes. Which means a fight to take it down from players, and between players would be the result of it, as it would be a node to be worth fighting over.
that again does not fit. remember we are some of the first people in Verra we are rebuilding the world so having NPC cities makes no sense
The world of Vera is already populated by NPC's. How the node system towards them works does not necessarily mean that they build a normal settlment... It has to be logical and I've already explained this.
Animals out in the world do a ton of different things to protect their habitat, and whatever NPC that is in X location will make the node fitting to that type of animal, monster or creep.
while there are NPC in ashes they do not make nodes that is all the players
I did and like I said before NPC do NOT make nodes only players
I AM AWARE! Which is why I made this thread..
But you are aware of the fact that all nodes are programmed to be at X location in the world right? All nodes exists in the world when we enter. They are all at lvl 0. What I'm asking to adjust, is to have some of them be at -1, -2 and -3 while the rest is as normal at 0. And nodes that stay at 0 for too long gets upgraded to -1, and then -2 and then -3 if the same situation continues. As @elahrairah mentions, that means that "end-game" content is ever evolving in the opposite direction of our progress at our own nodes.
More people within a zone means XP towards our node.
Less people within a zone to which there is more NPC's than players, mean NPC's grow their node.
If new players are too weak to fight off -2 and -3 nodes, this will funnel players towards the rest of the -1 and 0 nodes. It creates more PVP! It also may create interesting dynamics between guilds in how they may want to keep a zone free of players to let NPC's grow, as that is a perfect opportunity for them to periodically farm and level up.
Exactly, bud. In the future please don't cast your judgment onto someone's ideas before you even understand them. I know that sounds harsh, but it's not meant to be insulting. It's just that you were attacking OP over things that weren't even a part of their idea.
The question is about whether or not monsters should develop their own open-world territories in a way that's more complex than just "this is where this mob spawns." We know there's some 103 node locations, and that most likely (maybe even by design?) not all will have player settlements built on them. In those "wild nodes", I think it'd be neat for monsters to establish themselves as if they're claiming territory. Likely this would be the apex predator of that node, and it would do things that apex predators normally do: fiercely defend its land (in a way atypical of a standard mob).
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yes I know all the nodes are predetermined
1. all nodes start off at level 0 that it.
2. new players can help any node they want so there is no problem
3. players don't fight nodes unless there is a siege
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
Hi there! As some other folks have mentioned in this thread, our concepts for node growth focus primarily on player agency and player to player interaction, and some might consider a system like this a bit of a deviation from those shared and developed designs. You can check out a bit more on where we've shared our current plans for those here! In addition, the idea of loot tables being updated to include player items sounds like an interesting concept, though perhaps quite the monumental undertaking as I'm not familiar with any MMOs that might have taken this approach based on the multitude of monsters and players it would have to take into account.
That being said, I am all for brainstorming and ideating and theorycrafting, so please feel free to keep sharing and iterating on this topic!
Ok, so it looks like dynamic and procedural loot-tables may be closer to what may be achievable in the shorter term, so here is my thoughts on how it would work, and how it could be implemented:
The server logs how players are killed from before, from which skill and which mob/NPC (important to balance the game as the game progress).. So this is the basis of the system.
Player A is in area B where Mobs C is located - 5 of them. As he enters the area, the Mobs are spawned (based on draw distance) and the fight begins. The outcome of this is that the Player A took too much risk and he dies from the Mobs - some inventory is lost. Server logs it, removes a percentage of inventory as a money sink and stores the rest.
Player B enters the same area, and the server spawns Mobs C - 5 of them, with one of them being upgraded and its loot-table adjusted and increased based on stored data from the previous fight. One of the abilities are upgraded, and he receives more HP at spawn.
If Player B dies to this groups of mobs like Player A, the process continues. A random selection within those 5 mobs will see an HP increase, and one of the abilities leveled up and upgraded alongside a bigger loot-table.
Result would be 3 normal mobs and 2 upgraded mobs, or 4 normal mobs and 1 mob starting to be really strong.
Rince and repat, and "end-game" camps of those mobs would dynamically change. The upgrades is picked at random from a pool of possible upgrades, thus Players never know for certain how to handle the same type of mobs that is eligible for this system (not all types of mobs is logical to fit and be involved in this).
One type of upgrade is pure stats. Block chance, damage output, HP increase, etc. and the numbers of possible upgrades is also random. Lets say from 1-3. This means some camps take longer time to upgrade if successful at killing players, while other camps roll good and upgrades way faster to become way harder in a shorter timeframe. Maybe add a multiplyer on this based on Player-Gear that is involved? The other type of upgrade is based on a pool of different abilities. The strength of those abilities is also based on a random generated number. A charge that does 100-300 damage, where its number-range is picked at random when the mob spawns for example.
This would be how the general upgrade system would work, but I also think that it would be cool to add a specific system for specialty mobs. World-bosses that lives forever on the server and are continuously upgraded as they wreck havok in the world. This type of content could even be a Developer-ran content, where he players a monster and run around trying to level up as much as possible.
For Players, they could as a group activate a type of "monster coin" event, and play the same system as a camp of mobs, based on the first system. Length of game-type could be until death with permadeath, where players actually play the role of a pack of really rear breed of dangerous Wolfs for example that together roam around trying to level up based on killing other NPC's and Players.
Now that we've got an answer, I may try and make a new thread and split out this idea for it to be discussed.
Honestly that sounds like it would be impossible just from a technical standpoint. How do you create that sort of dynamic loot table where a mob gets player loot added to their table?
Its doing the same thing the game already does through the node system. The server have to keep track of who does what, to give XP to the node, so players are tracked. For NPC nodes its the opposite, which the server already tracks. No players in an area for a while means NPC Node upgrades.
As for the loot-table and the progression of X mob, its also utilizing data that is already known and used by devs to balance content. They just track played deaths to X. Developers already do this between all kinds of combat. Between players to balance skills and abilities, and between mobs to balance content. The difference here is to what extent one would individualize mobs to truly reflect a mob that did X, or if the system picks a mob at random at render-time when X player enters an area where the data log shows that it should have a mob with X player loot in its loot-table.
It's not the same.
Takes lots of database space, new things to account for etc.
Plus for me it doesn't cut it because you're shifting the purpose of the game from player vs player conflict to player vs environment conflict, and that is not what ashes is going for.
Intrepid plans to have a game with content, yes, but the core of it will be conflict about resources, nodes, raids not with themselves, but with other people.
It's not the same.
Takes lots of database space, new things to account for etc.
Plus for me it doesn't cut it because you're shifting the purpose of the game from player vs player conflict to player vs environment conflict, and that is not what ashes is going for.
Intrepid plans to have a game with content, yes, but the core of it will be conflict about resources, nodes, raids not with themselves, but with other people.
From a technical standpoint, its more of the same. The servers already have to have acceess to these kinds of stuff to build XP towards the node system. Combat is tracked, and location of players is tracked. Most MMORPG utilize "big data" to make the game better, and this game will do. Those datapoints can be utilized for a ton of different stuff, and thats what they have done through the node system. They simply are utilizing stuff that other MMO's already tracked to build systems based off of it.
I don't agree that this would shift the game towards PvE, as I'm mainly a PvP'er my self. Having PvE interests throughout the world funnels players to them for lategame content. And forcing the game to have less 0 nodes at the start instead of 103 of them, will funnel players more together to fight over those that are left.
Example:
Original situation when players enter the game now = 103 nodes. Players will spread out to find their best location to start their journey.
Now situation with my suggestions means that some of those 103 nodes are already taken and popularized by harder NPC's. Maybe there are 10 node -3, 30 node -2 and 50 node -1 NPC filled nodes that is too hard for players to kill and remove alone to get their start there. That means that players will have to fight over 13 nodes at level 0.
Now of course, at start people already have big guidls etc, so some of them will challenge NPC level -1 nodes. But through balance I hope node -2 would be to hard for most groups of 8. Only guidls that already are in the game with 40 people should take over node -2 and have a chance against node 3 NPC ran nodes.
How the devs would decide which nodes to start as 0 -1, -2 and -3 I think would be based on the best locations for both end game PvE, and end game PvP. Military coastal cities for example should be harder to get a foothold on than a normal inland spot imo.
While I don't like ALL of the OPs ideas, I do like allowing NPC/Mobs to level up their own nodes (but only to the village/town level).
If a band of Orcs enter an area and are left to their own devices, I see no reason why they can't start their own camp, start collecting resources just like the players would and start to grow their node. The longer the players in the surrounding areas wait to deal with this threat, the more of a problem in will be down the road; Local resources disappearing to the NPCs, ever larger/nastier roaming bands, direct attacks on adjacent player nodes, etc.
While I don't like ALL of the OPs ideas, I do like allowing NPC/Mobs to level up their own nodes (but only to the village/town level).
If a band of Orcs enter an area and are left to their own devices, I see no reason why they can't start their own camp, start collecting resources just like the players would and start to grow their node. The longer the players in the surrounding areas wait to deal with this threat, the more of a problem in will be down the road; Local resources disappearing to the NPCs, ever larger/nastier roaming bands, direct attacks on adjacent player nodes, etc.
Sounds fun to me!
Thanks @PlagueMonk! My original though was to limit NPC nodes to around village/town level my self, which is why I stopped at a -3 node. But I'm starting to think that -4, -5 and -6 should be possible to, but really, really rare, and maybe only suitable for 1-2 types of NPC's that already belongs to the endgame content, which deals with the visual "building node" types.
But I think when most people analyze what this may mean, they think about Player ran Nodes and how those nodes look like. What I'm into as well is way more open, and the devs would have choices way above just adding buildings to portray the level of a node.
World Bosses could also be linked to this system, where the devs spawn a World Boss that is at -1. It roams around and evolves within the system to become -2, -3 etc if its left alone, or if it kills other NPC's and players to XP up himself. A Dragon for example doesn't care about buildings and builds stuff. He have a cave and thats it, so he himself is the "node". You have to kill him before a Player controlled Node opens in that area that he control.
Something else I also think would be neat, since the game already have the Monster Coin event where players control monsters, is to link this with the evolving NPC node systems. How hard wouldn't it be to kill a Dragon that someone spawned as a Monster Coin event, where it can level up and become stronger and stronger - while its being controlled by a player?
If a member in a guild gets lucky and sees an legandary "monster coin" drop for this, then the entire guild would have it in their interests to help a neighbouring NPC's node level 0 to level up their node to -3 for example where this Dragon could be triggered and spawned. They would set up guards at the entrances into that area to kill off players who wanted to enter it, to let the NPC's be allowed to level up.
It creates some interesting effects where it could be used in PvP, and PvE at the same time.
Comments
Thanks, I'd see that video, and it's actually unrelated to what we're talking about. The activity-awakening-monsters that then attack our nodes is a great dynamic to have in the game. What OP mentioned and what I think is an interesting compliment to that dynamic is what happens outside of our nodes --> ie how do beastie populations react/grow when there is little activity? For example, wouldn't it make sense that the further from a node you go, the more mobs there are? if you go far enough from a node, couldn't a species develop a strong footing there, become territorial and defensive of their hunting lands? If left unchecked, do they start to creep into our node, attack caravans, farms, and even make travel dangerous for our lower level friends?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=18m29s&v=EAG9mS0U4NQ&feature=youtu.be
Again, this is talking about what happens within nodes. It was about one sentence from Steven, just referencing that mobs will change within a node as that node develops.
What are your thought on the topic discussed in this thread?
But you are aware of the fact that all nodes are programmed to be at X location in the world right? All nodes exists in the world when we enter. They are all at lvl 0. What I'm asking to adjust, is to have some of them be at -1, -2 and -3 while the rest is as normal at 0. And nodes that stay at 0 for too long gets upgraded to -1, and then -2 and then -3 if the same situation continues. As @elahrairah mentions, that means that "end-game" content is ever evolving in the opposite direction of our progress at our own nodes.
More people within a zone means XP towards our node.
Less people within a zone to which there is more NPC's than players, mean NPC's grow their node.
If new players are too weak to fight off -2 and -3 nodes, this will funnel players towards the rest of the -1 and 0 nodes. It creates more PVP! It also may create interesting dynamics between guilds in how they may want to keep a zone free of players to let NPC's grow, as that is a perfect opportunity for them to periodically farm and level up.
Exactly, bud. In the future please don't cast your judgment onto someone's ideas before you even understand them. I know that sounds harsh, but it's not meant to be insulting. It's just that you were attacking OP over things that weren't even a part of their idea.
The question is about whether or not monsters should develop their own open-world territories in a way that's more complex than just "this is where this mob spawns." We know there's some 103 node locations, and that most likely (maybe even by design?) not all will have player settlements built on them. In those "wild nodes", I think it'd be neat for monsters to establish themselves as if they're claiming territory. Likely this would be the apex predator of that node, and it would do things that apex predators normally do: fiercely defend its land (in a way atypical of a standard mob).
1. all nodes start off at level 0 that it.
2. new players can help any node they want so there is no problem
3. players don't fight nodes unless there is a siege
That being said, I am all for brainstorming and ideating and theorycrafting, so please feel free to keep sharing and iterating on this topic!
Ok, so it looks like dynamic and procedural loot-tables may be closer to what may be achievable in the shorter term, so here is my thoughts on how it would work, and how it could be implemented:
The server logs how players are killed from before, from which skill and which mob/NPC (important to balance the game as the game progress).. So this is the basis of the system.
Player A is in area B where Mobs C is located - 5 of them. As he enters the area, the Mobs are spawned (based on draw distance) and the fight begins. The outcome of this is that the Player A took too much risk and he dies from the Mobs - some inventory is lost. Server logs it, removes a percentage of inventory as a money sink and stores the rest.
Player B enters the same area, and the server spawns Mobs C - 5 of them, with one of them being upgraded and its loot-table adjusted and increased based on stored data from the previous fight. One of the abilities are upgraded, and he receives more HP at spawn.
If Player B dies to this groups of mobs like Player A, the process continues. A random selection within those 5 mobs will see an HP increase, and one of the abilities leveled up and upgraded alongside a bigger loot-table.
Result would be 3 normal mobs and 2 upgraded mobs, or 4 normal mobs and 1 mob starting to be really strong.
Rince and repat, and "end-game" camps of those mobs would dynamically change. The upgrades is picked at random from a pool of possible upgrades, thus Players never know for certain how to handle the same type of mobs that is eligible for this system (not all types of mobs is logical to fit and be involved in this).
One type of upgrade is pure stats. Block chance, damage output, HP increase, etc. and the numbers of possible upgrades is also random. Lets say from 1-3. This means some camps take longer time to upgrade if successful at killing players, while other camps roll good and upgrades way faster to become way harder in a shorter timeframe. Maybe add a multiplyer on this based on Player-Gear that is involved? The other type of upgrade is based on a pool of different abilities. The strength of those abilities is also based on a random generated number. A charge that does 100-300 damage, where its number-range is picked at random when the mob spawns for example.
This would be how the general upgrade system would work, but I also think that it would be cool to add a specific system for specialty mobs. World-bosses that lives forever on the server and are continuously upgraded as they wreck havok in the world. This type of content could even be a Developer-ran content, where he players a monster and run around trying to level up as much as possible.
For Players, they could as a group activate a type of "monster coin" event, and play the same system as a camp of mobs, based on the first system. Length of game-type could be until death with permadeath, where players actually play the role of a pack of really rear breed of dangerous Wolfs for example that together roam around trying to level up based on killing other NPC's and Players.
Now that we've got an answer, I may try and make a new thread and split out this idea for it to be discussed.
It's not the same.
Takes lots of database space, new things to account for etc.
Plus for me it doesn't cut it because you're shifting the purpose of the game from player vs player conflict to player vs environment conflict, and that is not what ashes is going for.
Intrepid plans to have a game with content, yes, but the core of it will be conflict about resources, nodes, raids not with themselves, but with other people.
I don't agree that this would shift the game towards PvE, as I'm mainly a PvP'er my self. Having PvE interests throughout the world funnels players to them for lategame content. And forcing the game to have less 0 nodes at the start instead of 103 of them, will funnel players more together to fight over those that are left.
Example:
Original situation when players enter the game now = 103 nodes. Players will spread out to find their best location to start their journey.
Now situation with my suggestions means that some of those 103 nodes are already taken and popularized by harder NPC's. Maybe there are 10 node -3, 30 node -2 and 50 node -1 NPC filled nodes that is too hard for players to kill and remove alone to get their start there. That means that players will have to fight over 13 nodes at level 0.
Now of course, at start people already have big guidls etc, so some of them will challenge NPC level -1 nodes. But through balance I hope node -2 would be to hard for most groups of 8. Only guidls that already are in the game with 40 people should take over node -2 and have a chance against node 3 NPC ran nodes.
How the devs would decide which nodes to start as 0 -1, -2 and -3 I think would be based on the best locations for both end game PvE, and end game PvP. Military coastal cities for example should be harder to get a foothold on than a normal inland spot imo.
If a band of Orcs enter an area and are left to their own devices, I see no reason why they can't start their own camp, start collecting resources just like the players would and start to grow their node. The longer the players in the surrounding areas wait to deal with this threat, the more of a problem in will be down the road; Local resources disappearing to the NPCs, ever larger/nastier roaming bands, direct attacks on adjacent player nodes, etc.
Sounds fun to me!
Thanks @PlagueMonk! My original though was to limit NPC nodes to around village/town level my self, which is why I stopped at a -3 node. But I'm starting to think that -4, -5 and -6 should be possible to, but really, really rare, and maybe only suitable for 1-2 types of NPC's that already belongs to the endgame content, which deals with the visual "building node" types.
But I think when most people analyze what this may mean, they think about Player ran Nodes and how those nodes look like. What I'm into as well is way more open, and the devs would have choices way above just adding buildings to portray the level of a node.
World Bosses could also be linked to this system, where the devs spawn a World Boss that is at -1. It roams around and evolves within the system to become -2, -3 etc if its left alone, or if it kills other NPC's and players to XP up himself. A Dragon for example doesn't care about buildings and builds stuff. He have a cave and thats it, so he himself is the "node". You have to kill him before a Player controlled Node opens in that area that he control.
Something else I also think would be neat, since the game already have the Monster Coin event where players control monsters, is to link this with the evolving NPC node systems. How hard wouldn't it be to kill a Dragon that someone spawned as a Monster Coin event, where it can level up and become stronger and stronger - while its being controlled by a player?
If a member in a guild gets lucky and sees an legandary "monster coin" drop for this, then the entire guild would have it in their interests to help a neighbouring NPC's node level 0 to level up their node to -3 for example where this Dragon could be triggered and spawned. They would set up guards at the entrances into that area to kill off players who wanted to enter it, to let the NPC's be allowed to level up.
It creates some interesting effects where it could be used in PvP, and PvE at the same time.