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Griefing the flagging system, and a solution.

Scenario:

Guild 1 and Guild 2 are having a big open world PvP fight. 80 Players in the same area with damage and healing going all over the place.

50% of Griefing Guild 3 joints the battle naked flagged as Green, while Guild 1 and 2 are flagged as Purple. Their mission is to not heal each other to get flagged Purple themselves, but to run into the fight to get people in Guild 1 and 2 flagged Red.

Once enough players are flagged Red, the rest of the Griefing Guild 3 joins the battle and strategically picks off those flagged Red players to get free loot without much penalty.


Solution:
We know the game have systems to track player movement and actions through the node system. A solution to this would be to also track damage to make a heat-map for the world. If a Green player enters an area that have a lot of damage going on between two guilds, they are flagged as Purple as entering the battle, and can not grief by purposely dying while not fighting back to flag people Red.
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Comments

  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Corruption thread number 79
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • AoE's don't hit greens if you don't want them to.

    Guild 1 & 2 could also simply declare a war on each other to prevent the problem altogether.
  • Nagash wrote: »
    Corruption thread number 79
    What? Are you trolling?
    Warth wrote: »
    AoE's don't hit greens if you don't want them to.

    Guild 1 & 2 could also simply declare a war on each other to prevent the problem altogether.
    What if Guild 1 & 2 normally don't fight eachother but fight over resources? A World Boss might as well be a good reason to fight.

    Not sure what you mean about "AoE's don't hit greens if you don't want them to" though? In either way, Greens can just run around in the frantic fight hoping to get hit. Get hit enough and someone will kill the Green after a while.
  • Nagash wrote: »
    Corruption thread number 79

    He's making a list, he's checking it twice!
    Nagash is coming to the... graveyard.
    Be bold. Be brave. Roll a Tulnar !
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    oophus wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    Corruption thread number 79
    What? Are you trolling?
    Warth wrote: »
    AoE's don't hit greens if you don't want them to.

    Guild 1 & 2 could also simply declare a war on each other to prevent the problem altogether.
    What if Guild 1 & 2 normally don't fight eachother but fight over resources? A World Boss might as well be a good reason to fight.

    Not sure what you mean about "AoE's don't hit greens if you don't want them to" though? In either way, Greens can just run around in the frantic fight hoping to get hit. Get hit enough and someone will kill the Green after a while.

    nope just keeping count
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • oophus wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    Corruption thread number 79
    What? Are you trolling?
    Warth wrote: »
    AoE's don't hit greens if you don't want them to.

    Guild 1 & 2 could also simply declare a war on each other to prevent the problem altogether.
    What if Guild 1 & 2 normally don't fight eachother but fight over resources? A World Boss might as well be a good reason to fight.

    Not sure what you mean about "AoE's don't hit greens if you don't want them to" though? In either way, Greens can just run around in the frantic fight hoping to get hit. Get hit enough and someone will kill the Green after a while.

    if people hit greens with single target/targeted spells, then its their own fault, no matter how frantic the fight is.

  • TalentsTalents Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited December 2020
    Zdnr9pg.png

    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Definition:Forced_attack

    Definition: Forced attack

    A forced attack in Ashes of Creation is when a player presses Control-F before they attack, or they hold Control or Alt while they attack another non-corrupt player. This allows their attacks to be registered against that player. If the attacker is flagged as a non-combatant (green), they will become a combatant (purple) when their attack hits the other player.[1]

    Pressing control-F on its own does not flag a player as a combatant. They must land a hit on a non-corrupt player in order to be flagged as a combatant.[1]
    nI17Ea4.png
  • Nagash wrote: »
    oophus wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    Corruption thread number 79
    What? Are you trolling?
    Warth wrote: »
    AoE's don't hit greens if you don't want them to.

    Guild 1 & 2 could also simply declare a war on each other to prevent the problem altogether.
    What if Guild 1 & 2 normally don't fight eachother but fight over resources? A World Boss might as well be a good reason to fight.

    Not sure what you mean about "AoE's don't hit greens if you don't want them to" though? In either way, Greens can just run around in the frantic fight hoping to get hit. Get hit enough and someone will kill the Green after a while.

    nope just keeping count
    Do that in an exel sheet on your own, or keep track in your head for whatever. Don't spam threads with it.
  • Warth wrote: »
    oophus wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    Corruption thread number 79
    What? Are you trolling?
    Warth wrote: »
    AoE's don't hit greens if you don't want them to.

    Guild 1 & 2 could also simply declare a war on each other to prevent the problem altogether.
    What if Guild 1 & 2 normally don't fight eachother but fight over resources? A World Boss might as well be a good reason to fight.

    Not sure what you mean about "AoE's don't hit greens if you don't want them to" though? In either way, Greens can just run around in the frantic fight hoping to get hit. Get hit enough and someone will kill the Green after a while.

    if people hit greens with single target/targeted spells, then its their own fault, no matter how frantic the fight is.
    Some spells take time to hit the target. Animations also play out if its released. I can perfectly be the person I'm talking about if I end up learning that there is money to be made here. Just follow Twitter and search for PvP encounters in progress, and join the fight with my guild. Get them tagged, and kill them later.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    oophus wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    oophus wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    Corruption thread number 79
    What? Are you trolling?
    Warth wrote: »
    AoE's don't hit greens if you don't want them to.

    Guild 1 & 2 could also simply declare a war on each other to prevent the problem altogether.
    What if Guild 1 & 2 normally don't fight eachother but fight over resources? A World Boss might as well be a good reason to fight.

    Not sure what you mean about "AoE's don't hit greens if you don't want them to" though? In either way, Greens can just run around in the frantic fight hoping to get hit. Get hit enough and someone will kill the Green after a while.

    nope just keeping count
    Do that in an exel sheet on your own, or keep track in your head for whatever. Don't spam threads with it.

    well stop making the same posts its really not that hard to use search
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • I found the "flag" button. More comments that are not touching the topic at hand will be reported.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited December 2020
    Valid concerns, but there is a recent topic by me on this issue.

    Action combat and the corruption system is a new concept. It used to be only tab target with corruption in L2.
    I hope they will address how to target greens and how not to target greens on various scenarios.
  • perseus01perseus01 Member
    edited December 2020
    *Edit for fart*
  • Point me to the thread that is addressing my situation and at the same time provides a possible solution. Thanks.
  • Valid concerns, but there is a recent topic by me on this issue.

    Action combat and the corruption system is a new concept. It used to be only tab target with corruption in L2.
    I hope they will address how to target greens and how not to target greens on various scenarios.
    Thanks for actually discussing the topic!

    Action combat means that the game utilizes hit detection. This will be griefable, and I will be one of the guys doing it if its worth it. I'm just pointing out the obvious and hope the devs find a way to combat it. My idea would work, and I think they collect this data anyway from before.

    Its like if you enter an area with a Caravan. You have to state your purpose. The same would be true for a "RED" area in a heatmap based on damage done/taken. State your purpose, and if the Green picks to stay Green, then they don't take damage from the guys who made the red area in the first place.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    1. try using search
    2. here you go https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/47266/ashes-crash-course-pvp-themes-vs-flagging-whats-the-difference
    3. the system the devs have already solve this
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    oophus wrote: »
    Valid concerns, but there is a recent topic by me on this issue.

    Action combat and the corruption system is a new concept. It used to be only tab target with corruption in L2.
    I hope they will address how to target greens and how not to target greens on various scenarios.
    Thanks for actually discussing the topic!

    Action combat means that the game utilizes hit detection. This will be griefable, and I will be one of the guys doing it if its worth it. I'm just pointing out the obvious and hope the devs find a way to combat it. My idea would work, and I think they collect this data anyway from before.

    Its like if you enter an area with a Caravan. You have to state your purpose. The same would be true for a "RED" area in a heatmap based on damage done/taken. State your purpose, and if the Green picks to stay Green, then they don't take damage from the guys who made the red area in the first place.

    One way of combating this problem would be the addition of /force Red toggle, which would enable your ALL your abilities to damage a green player that you have on your TAB target and nobody else.
  • oophusoophus Member
    edited December 2020
    Nagash wrote: »
    1. try using search
    2. here you go https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/47266/ashes-crash-course-pvp-themes-vs-flagging-whats-the-difference
    3. the system the devs have already solve this

    Can you point me to a timestamp? He didn't address this as far as I'm aware of, but I shifted quickly through it, as I've read and heard those things before. I've seen a ton of videos and have a good grasp of the flagging system.

    This game have an "action based" part of its combat system. That means projectiles go straight, and damage have an arc to them, with animation that will go 100% from start to finish with its projected frames for that animation. Throughout that time, a Green player will be able to get hit to lose HP. And if he does this enough times in a frantic PvP fight, he may be able to get killed and thus flag someone as being Red.
  • oophusoophus Member
    edited December 2020
    oophus wrote: »
    Valid concerns, but there is a recent topic by me on this issue.

    Action combat and the corruption system is a new concept. It used to be only tab target with corruption in L2.
    I hope they will address how to target greens and how not to target greens on various scenarios.
    Thanks for actually discussing the topic!

    Action combat means that the game utilizes hit detection. This will be griefable, and I will be one of the guys doing it if its worth it. I'm just pointing out the obvious and hope the devs find a way to combat it. My idea would work, and I think they collect this data anyway from before.

    Its like if you enter an area with a Caravan. You have to state your purpose. The same would be true for a "RED" area in a heatmap based on damage done/taken. State your purpose, and if the Green picks to stay Green, then they don't take damage from the guys who made the red area in the first place.

    One way of combating this problem would be the addition of /force Red toggle, which would enable your ALL your abilities to damage a green player that you have on your TAB target and nobody else.

    This would wreck havok on balance, since the game is balanced around mass PvP, with arcing swings in melee, and AoE plus abilities that may pierce.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I'm sick of posting proof and you not reading it. Just read this https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_flagging and if you still don't get it then fine
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • oophusoophus Member
    edited December 2020
    Nagash wrote: »
    I'm sick of posting proof and you not reading it. Just read this https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_flagging and if you still don't get it then fine
    I've read it. It doesn't address my situation. It speaks about an option for AoE effects, but the game also have an action combat option. Arrows shot will hit whatever is there after X seconds, and melee attacks will also hit players in an arc. The game also features piercing attacks. Now if all combat is toggleable then this is griefable too.

    I'm a PvP'er, and I've abused systems for years. If there is a way, I will utilize it if I earn from it.

    If all combat is toggleable to not hit non-flagged players, then I will utilize this to get a free positional advantage by not jumping into the fight with 100% of the guild. Leave 30% of it, and they get a free positional advantage by being able to roam through the combat while not being hit by the other guild. After they are in position, they join the fight by initiating the other guild to get the first blow. A first blow from lets say 10 players may and probably will one-shot a group of players if all of them time it correctly.


  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    All I can say is wait till testing happens and take it from there
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • Nagash wrote: »
    All I can say is wait till testing happens and take it from there
    No, I will voice my concerns now since the Devs have made this forum for us. If you don't like it, don't participate in threads and wait it out.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    well, you are welcome to voice your concern just like every other corruption thread and just like them, no changes will be made.
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • Isn't action combat based around aoe? An action combat swing with a sword will for example use a cone (aoe)in front of the player, and everyone (or a specific number of players) in that cone will be hit. So if you check the "don't hit green flagged players" or don't use the force command you will NEVER hit a green flagged player.

    I have other problems or concerns with the flaggings system, like that you can't from the start flag yourself as a combatant (which may not be a problem after testing it). But the scenario that you are talking will probably never happen. But we will just have to wait and see
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    oophus wrote: »
    If a Green player enters an area that have a lot of damage going on between two guilds, they are flagged as Purple as entering the battle, and can not grief by purposely dying while not fighting back to flag people Red.

    Green players turning purple because they're near but not involved in other players that are fighting each other?

    That's probably the worst suggestion I've seen!
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


    giphy-downsized-large.gif?cid=b603632fp2svffcmdi83yynpfpexo413mpb1qzxnh3cei0nx&ep=v1_gifs_gifId&rid=giphy-downsized-large.gif&ct=s
  • oophusoophus Member
    edited December 2020
    rikardp98 wrote: »
    Isn't action combat based around aoe?
    It may be, but even this is griefable, like I explained later in this thread.

    If it becomes standard that random PvP between guilds ends up with them toggeling this on to not hit green non-flagged players, then why wouldn't I utilize this to keep a portion of my guild non-flagged green while the rest fight and hold its ground? They would be able to just pass the other guild, and get behind their lines and time an attack on them, since they would be flagged.

    I think a better solution to this would be the same system Caravans utilize. If players enters the area where a Caravan event is taking place, they have to make an option to flag them selves, or not. Defend/attack or let it be.

    The same system can be utilized based on a heat-map for damage done/taken. If players enters an area where a big PvP battle is happening, they have to make the same choice.
  • LeiloniLeiloni Member, Alpha Two
    oophus wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    I'm sick of posting proof and you not reading it. Just read this https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_flagging and if you still don't get it then fine
    I've read it. It doesn't address my situation. It speaks about an option for AoE effects, but the game also have an action combat option. Arrows shot will hit whatever is there after X seconds, and melee attacks will also hit players in an arc. The game also features piercing attacks. Now if all combat is toggleable then this is griefable too.

    I'm a PvP'er, and I've abused systems for years. If there is a way, I will utilize it if I earn from it.

    If all combat is toggleable to not hit non-flagged players, then I will utilize this to get a free positional advantage by not jumping into the fight with 100% of the guild. Leave 30% of it, and they get a free positional advantage by being able to roam through the combat while not being hit by the other guild. After they are in position, they join the fight by initiating the other guild to get the first blow. A first blow from lets say 10 players may and probably will one-shot a group of players if all of them time it correctly.


    As has been explained, unless you manually flag yourself, none of those arrow shots will hit anything but a mob. Between that and the AoE checkbox which has also already been explained, you cannot turn purple or red unless you make a several button choice to do so. PKing someone else is essentially a double opt-in process.
  • If we take your example, the guild 1 will start by using force attack (ctrl+F or something) on guild 2, guild 1 will be flagged purple and when guild 2 attack guild 1 both guilds will be flagged purple. Now they now longer need the force attack (hit ctrl+F). So no random green player will get attacked.
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