Griefing the flagging system, and a solution.

Scenario:

Guild 1 and Guild 2 are having a big open world PvP fight. 80 Players in the same area with damage and healing going all over the place.

50% of Griefing Guild 3 joints the battle naked flagged as Green, while Guild 1 and 2 are flagged as Purple. Their mission is to not heal each other to get flagged Purple themselves, but to run into the fight to get people in Guild 1 and 2 flagged Red.

Once enough players are flagged Red, the rest of the Griefing Guild 3 joins the battle and strategically picks off those flagged Red players to get free loot without much penalty.

Solution:
We know the game have systems to track player movement and actions through the node system. A solution to this would be to also track damage to make a heat-map for the world. If a Green player enters an area that have a lot of damage going on between two guilds, they are flagged as Purple as entering the battle, and can not grief by purposely dying while not fighting back to flag people Red.

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Nagash

I'm sick of posting proof and you not reading it. Just read this https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_flagging and if you still don't get it then fine

oophus

Nagash wrote: »

I'm sick of posting proof and you not reading it. Just read this https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_flagging and if you still don't get it then fine

I've read it. It doesn't address my situation. It speaks about an option for AoE effects, but the game also have an action combat option. Arrows shot will hit whatever is there after X seconds, and melee attacks will also hit players in an arc. The game also features piercing attacks. Now if all combat is toggleable then this is griefable too.

I'm a PvP'er, and I've abused systems for years. If there is a way, I will utilize it if I earn from it.

If all combat is toggleable to not hit non-flagged players, then I will utilize this to get a free positional advantage by not jumping into the fight with 100% of the guild. Leave 30% of it, and they get a free positional advantage by being able to roam through the combat while not being hit by the other guild. After they are in position, they join the fight by initiating the other guild to get the first blow. A first blow from lets say 10 players may and probably will one-shot a group of players if all of them time it correctly.

Nagash

All I can say is wait till testing happens and take it from there

oophus

Nagash wrote: »

All I can say is wait till testing happens and take it from there

No, I will voice my concerns now since the Devs have made this forum for us. If you don't like it, don't participate in threads and wait it out.

Nagash

well, you are welcome to voice your concern just like every other corruption thread and just like them, no changes will be made.

rikardp98

Isn't action combat based around aoe? An action combat swing with a sword will for example use a cone (aoe)in front of the player, and everyone (or a specific number of players) in that cone will be hit. So if you check the "don't hit green flagged players" or don't use the force command you will NEVER hit a green flagged player.

I have other problems or concerns with the flaggings system, like that you can't from the start flag yourself as a combatant (which may not be a problem after testing it). But the scenario that you are talking will probably never happen. But we will just have to wait and see

daveywavey

oophus wrote: »

If a Green player enters an area that have a lot of damage going on between two guilds, they are flagged as Purple as entering the battle, and can not grief by purposely dying while not fighting back to flag people Red.

Green players turning purple because they're near but not involved in other players that are fighting each other?

That's probably the worst suggestion I've seen!

oophus

rikardp98 wrote: »

Isn't action combat based around aoe?

It may be, but even this is griefable, like I explained later in this thread.

If it becomes standard that random PvP between guilds ends up with them toggeling this on to not hit green non-flagged players, then why wouldn't I utilize this to keep a portion of my guild non-flagged green while the rest fight and hold its ground? They would be able to just pass the other guild, and get behind their lines and time an attack on them, since they would be flagged.

I think a better solution to this would be the same system Caravans utilize. If players enters the area where a Caravan event is taking place, they have to make an option to flag them selves, or not. Defend/attack or let it be.

The same system can be utilized based on a heat-map for damage done/taken. If players enters an area where a big PvP battle is happening, they have to make the same choice.

Leiloni

oophus wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

I'm sick of posting proof and you not reading it. Just read this https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_flagging and if you still don't get it then fine

I've read it. It doesn't address my situation. It speaks about an option for AoE effects, but the game also have an action combat option. Arrows shot will hit whatever is there after X seconds, and melee attacks will also hit players in an arc. The game also features piercing attacks. Now if all combat is toggleable then this is griefable too.

I'm a PvP'er, and I've abused systems for years. If there is a way, I will utilize it if I earn from it.

If all combat is toggleable to not hit non-flagged players, then I will utilize this to get a free positional advantage by not jumping into the fight with 100% of the guild. Leave 30% of it, and they get a free positional advantage by being able to roam through the combat while not being hit by the other guild. After they are in position, they join the fight by initiating the other guild to get the first blow. A first blow from lets say 10 players may and probably will one-shot a group of players if all of them time it correctly.

As has been explained, unless you manually flag yourself, none of those arrow shots will hit anything but a mob. Between that and the AoE checkbox which has also already been explained, you cannot turn purple or red unless you make a several button choice to do so. PKing someone else is essentially a double opt-in process.

rikardp98

If we take your example, the guild 1 will start by using force attack (ctrl+F or something) on guild 2, guild 1 will be flagged purple and when guild 2 attack guild 1 both guilds will be flagged purple. Now they now longer need the force attack (hit ctrl+F). So no random green player will get attacked.

Krim L

All of this is also under the assumption that these guilds aren't using the planned GvG war function, which operates outside of the corruption/flagging system. If you have 80 participants like mentioned in the OP, I'm fairly certain a war would be called to bypass corruption in the first place.

LieutenantToast

Hi there! Looks like some folks have already brought a up a few helpful points in this thread, namely:

1. In the situation described by OP, as both the original guilds are likely already purple (combatants), all of their attacks (whether or not they were AoE) would not hit green newcomers unless they intentionally were selecting to force attack (which might be unlikely, seeing as how they were currently fighting other combatants and that would be unnecessary). As noted here, any attacks that are not forced attacks will not hit green non-combatants: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_flagging

2. For a large guild vs. guild battle like this, folks might opt to utilize the guild war system, which would then operate outside the usual PvP flagging system entirely: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Guild_wars

All that being said, the corruption system and its finer points will certainly be something we look for additional feedback on once folks are hands-on with testing it in-game, to let us know their thoughts on the balance between fun and fair!

Sathrago

LieutenantToast wrote: »

Hi there! Looks like some folks have already brought a up a few helpful points in this thread, namely:

1. In the situation described by OP, as both the original guilds are likely already purple (combatants), all of their attacks (whether or not they were AoE) would not hit green newcomers unless they intentionally were selecting to force attack (which might be unlikely, seeing as how they were currently fighting other combatants and that would be unnecessary). As noted here, any attacks that are not forced attacks will not hit green non-combatants: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_flagging

2. For a large guild vs. guild battle like this, folks might opt to utilize the guild war system, which would then operate outside the usual PvP flagging system entirely: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Guild_wars

All that being said, the corruption system and its finer points will certainly be something we look for additional feedback on once folks are hands-on with testing it in-game, to let us know their thoughts on the balance between fun and fair!

Yeah but what about outside of objective-based pvp? It would be kinda lame if you can only attack each other during prime-time.

LieutenantToast

Sathrago wrote: »

Yeah but what about outside of objective-based pvp? It would be kinda lame if you can only attack each other during prime-time.

The finer points of the guild wars system are still in the design/development stages as noted on that page, and I can definitely understand a desire for more openly structured guild fights vs. objective-based ones.

Perhaps some greater rewards/risks for utilizing this particular guild war system could help incentivize folks to use that as their primary method for beating each other up

Jahlon

oophus wrote: »

Scenario:

Guild 1 and Guild 2 are having a big open world PvP fight. 80 Players in the same area with damage and healing going all over the place.

50% of Griefing Guild 3 joints the battle naked flagged as Green, while Guild 1 and 2 are flagged as Purple. Their mission is to not heal each other to get flagged Purple themselves, but to run into the fight to get people in Guild 1 and 2 flagged Red.

Once enough players are flagged Red, the rest of the Griefing Guild 3 joins the battle and strategically picks off those flagged Red players to get free loot without much penalty.

Solution:
We know the game have systems to track player movement and actions through the node system. A solution to this would be to also track damage to make a heat-map for the world. If a Green player enters an area that have a lot of damage going on between two guilds, they are flagged as Purple as entering the battle, and can not grief by purposely dying while not fighting back to flag people Red.

A solution to an issue that doesn't exist, since you have to check a box in order for your AOEs to hit Greens.

Next issue that you can come up with, since you are doing like 3 seconds of research before posting complaint/concern threads?

Warth

rewards will just be farmed.

Meaningful/harsh punishment is where its at. Also a lot of games have shown us in the past, that people would rather punish they dislike rather than get rewarded. There is No better motivation for guild wars than sticking it to the players you dislike

Leiloni

LieutenantToast wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

Yeah but what about outside of objective-based pvp? It would be kinda lame if you can only attack each other during prime-time.

The finer points of the guild wars system are still in the design/development stages as noted on that page, and I can definitely understand a desire for more openly structured guild fights vs. objective-based ones.

Perhaps some greater rewards/risks for utilizing this particular guild war system could help incentivize folks to use that as their primary method for beating each other up

The GvG system and the lack of details at this moment is definitely a big issue for me and some of my friends. And if I had to hazard a guess, I'd say a lot of people in the community. As Sathrago pointed out, it's important that we be able to attack other guilds outside of any objective PvP area/time slot. I understand Steven's points in the wiki quotes and why he wants Objective-based GvGs, but it's important to understand why and how most PvP focused guilds use Guild Wars, and why the "boring" system actually works really well for us (and it's not necessarily about winning all the time).

The main concern this all stems from is one of the main points in the game - being able to contest things in the open world, whether that be a prime mob farming or gathering area, or a world boss, or an open world dungeon, or something else. People are going to frequently find themselves in situations where they want to spontaneously group v group PvP. Currently the PK system makes that nearly impossible to do without gaining a ton of Corruption, because you won't know if the opposite group is going to attack back until it's too late. In many other OwPvP games, a GvG system solves this problem by allowing one group to declare a GvG on the spot against the guild of the opposing group and attack them without penalty.

If there are other in game systems that are intended to deal with these issues I'd love to hear it because as of now I don't see it and that's a big problem because it means a core aspect of the open world gameplay that drives a lot of these interconnected systems isn't going to work. There have been other Corruption-related posts that I believe were hinting at the idea of spontaneous group v group OwPvP being a potential issue as well.

If you guys are still ironing out the details of the GvG system, can you at least plan to address your goals with it? Or indicate if the above situation is something you're actively working to fix and address in the future? I might also suggest having the topic of GvG system be a Dev Discussion topic because I know people will have a lot of great ideas to share on the topic - and it will also make people feel better knowing that you're aware of the concerns and desire to address them.

Cathartidae

I think your concerns are valid, but you have to also remember how early you're getting to peak behind the curtain. Alpha 1 is just now beginning which seems to mainly about nailing the feel of combat - not balance, not progression, not the world or any other systems, just the feel of playing the game.

If I had to wager a guess, I'd say there have been high level discussions about things they might like to see with respect to systems like guild versus guild, but it's far too early to see anything committed to paper (or keyboard!)

Once the game is to a point where you're actually able to have meaningful fights between groups of people then it's time to worry about the nitty gritty of systems built on top. Don't worry about each shingle in the roof before the foundation is poured. Have some idea of what you'll need for the roof, and the things it should accomplish, but it's too early to decide to tear down the house because you don't like what you imagine the roof might be like.

That said, I do think it's productive to speculate about what you might want from the guild vs guild (or any other) system. But it's not that helpful to imagine all the ways some vague gestures by the people in charge could go wrong. Don't nitpick off the cuff ideas, add your own interests and passions and experiences.

Take this super early stage of the game to imagine all the things you'd want to see, and even ways you might imagine them working in the game.

Bricktop

@LieutenantToast @Leiloni

I too share my concerns with the current planned Guild War system and agree with much of what you say @Leiloni If I'm understanding correctly guild wars are currently intended to be several hour events at primetime. Simply put 2 hour "Guild wars" are boring and not very much of a war.

The clan war system in Lineage 2 led to some extremely heated long-standing rivalries. 2 clan leaders had to agree to a war and when they did it wasn't over until one of the clans was demoralized enough to surrender. These operated outside of the "Karma" (Corruption) system as well. Could take months, could never happen. This created bad blood for your enemies and a source of infighting and potential internal political issues in bigger alliances by people who couldn't handle the war and ganking that went on outside of the karma system. You got to know your enemies closely. You knew that so and so player liked to grind exp in X place with friends often so you would put together gank squads at all hours of the day when you needed something to do to look for them or others.

Now you could easily argue all this could possibly happen in Ashes and outside of a war system and that's true, but the sheer amount of posts about people worried about corruption and griefers and bounty hunters worries me that players flagging on each other may not be the normal. Reds and griefers should be a very very small problem because defending yourself and flagging on each other should be the main priority and what's encouraged for 90% of scenarios to make for a healthy open world game. As @Warth said most people would much rather punish the big meany than get rewarded themselves. There's a concerning amount of people already saying they are just not gonna PvP ever and they are just gonna give them corruption. That really in my opinion should not even be a thing to barely cross someones mind because of how it (hopefully) will be punishing to gain exp debt and take a long time to get off you. Will it become the meta-game to stand still and let people go red so they can punish the big meany?

Dying as a green should be just as painful as dying as a red. Flagged should be where people automatically default to if there is even a 1% chance of winning the fight. If there are no persistent guild wars that work outside of corruption I worry the game could possibly devolve into everybody just standing around and letting each other go red in half the scenarios that pop up to punish the other players as opposed to fighting for things like intended.

At the very absolute least they should be renamed from guild wars to guild skirmishes or guild vs guild if they are truly just multi-hour long events at a planned date and time. That doesn't exactly scream "war" to me.

Xyls

@Leiloni @Bricktop

Well said and hopefully they can give us some more feedback on guild wars soon. I for one am hoping for long epic wars with other guilds that could last weeks, months, years... hell the entire time both those guilds exist. That's epic.

I also agree about using guild wars to contest open world objectives, but I'm sure that will get to much push back from the PvE'rs.

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