My feedback and concerns for developers.

MOD NOTE: Hi all. The following post talks about minority representation in video games. I'm expecting some passionate debate from this and there's a chance you will disagree with the OP here. I'm leaving this thread open for now but I want to remind everyone to debate the topic and not resort to personal insults against either groups or individuals. I will be monitoring this thread carefully.

Wandering Mist.

“The personal is the political.” - Audre Lorde

Siyo/Osiyo/Chokma/Hello,

I wanted to take some time and write this morning to the developers. I am very happy with Ashes of Creation so far, and I want to learn more about it. I have history from EQ, WoW, and the EQNext community/landmark. All of these games have depreciated in quality and or have disappeared entirely. I am here to critique and help opinionate some topics and themes that are important to me. If anything I post violates the Forum Rules & Code of Conduct in a blatant way I do not understand please take this post down and talk with me.

That said,

Representation is a big deal to me. I study intergenerational trauma, indigenous language, sexuality, gender, and histories of women and indigenous peoples.

Pantheon RoTF late creator Brad McQuaid wanted to portray the women in Pantheon in such a way that his own daughter would be able to play. This directly targets the softcore nature of feminin models in Korean and Japanese mmorpg markets such as Tera or just about any anime styled game. Knowing the struggles of women and the disparity of women and girls who play 'games', being able to see yourself in a serious way and not just as a pin-up model is important.
So far I am happy to see bodies fully covered in armor and idle stances that are not overtly different from other models and the diminutive nature that creators seem to use for differentiating genders isn't as over the top--Bravo.
For those that want the perfect bodies, I get Roman/Greek styled art that is more about perfection and making things in a way to deny the idea of 'time' (specifically greek art). However there are already too many games like this that home in on these outdated and troublesome societies.

I want AoC to...
continue to think about the portrayal of women in their games in a way that does not placate to men but instead placates to women and girls in what they want to look like in reference to the gameworld.
think about representation of LGBTQ2spirit people and the best way to let our bodies exist in these spaces and stories. If you need help you can e-mail me: my studies have a lot to do with this and I can get you resources.
place people of color and LGBTQ2spirit people in limelights, stay away from tropes (Our bodies don't need to be cast aside for the sake of other stories, we don't need to be any more tragic, we need to be heroic and survive.)
Treat indigenous-like cultures in your game with respect and care. Don’t take the step out of representation into appropriation as so many have done in the past.
The Tauren from World of Warcraft are a playable race of indigenous Cow people. I just got done watching a Tauren be choked out and thrown off a cliff dead. Previously I saw that same Tauren chained up in some horrible prison. This is from the newest content at World of Warcraft. This character was supposed to be the leader of his people but instead is being cast as “The Crying Indian” from 1971’s recycling commercials. The Tauren are appropriated indigenous peoples made into 'cows' that are struggling to keep their land. And if you think Cows are not directly referencing the slaughter of cows for meat and you don't need to be shocked at the tameness of such a correlation for indigenous players, let me prepare you for rucking fediculous as there is dialogue that exists today of Tauren being referenced as a food item for the fair-skinned blood-elves.
Why I am referencing this

AoC I don’t want you to do this. I don’t want you to rip off of struggling cultures and I don’t want you to portray your indigenous as ‘dumb’ and ‘savage’. We are wise and strong just like Indigenous women and we should be respected.

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/06/29/884824236/dungeons-dragons-tries-to-banish-racist-stereotypes
In this NPR story you can read how historically problematic things like races can be and how under the surface of a game there are more things at work that actually do affect all of us (I am referencing representation here).
Here is a quote 5 paragraphs in.
"It's hard to see yourself in any role playing D&D if you're a person of color — specifically Black and brown people," she says. "A lot of the characters that are black or brown or blue ... they're evil, they're very one dimensional. And D&D is a game about being yourself and being anyone you want to be."

This quote means a lot to me because it is a gateway for some readers who may think that some of these difficult to quantify and under discussed things aren't important when they are, and then to see that veil lifted by Dungeons and Dragons which is one of the fathers of RPG games we all love. All of this opens up perceptions. A lot of things that don't affect us affect other people, and we need more empathy and more understanding across the board to bring us together so we are stronger and happier. That would make this game really fun to play with others.

Thanks for letting me share,

Wado,

-Todd

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Comments

Nagash

Its a game not real life please keep it like that

Wandering Mist

This is a very sensitive topic so I'm treading carefully here. My issue with posts like this is they assume that the developers and writers have some ulterior motive, which may not even exist. Take the Tauren WoW example, we have no way of knowing why the writers choose to do it like that. It could be completely innocent, it is a fantasy world afterall.

At the end of the day, most gamers will take a race or character at face value, and either like it or hate it. Just because a WoW player doesn't like the Tauren doesn't mean they are prejudiced against Native American Indians. Maybe I'm jumping the gun here a little but if you asked your average WoW player why they don't like the Tauren, it will usually be something like "I don't like the way they look" or "I don't like their animations" or "I don't like their starting zone", rather than anything related to real life cultures.

At the end of the day, writers will often draw inspiration from real world events and cultures, as that is how our minds work. Dig deep enough and you can find parallels to any civilisation you can think of, but as Nagash said, it's a game, not real life. That's an important distinction to make.

Noaani

Wandering Mist wrote: »

This is a very sensitive topic so I'm treading carefully here. My issue with posts like this is they assume that the developers and writers have some ulterior motive, which may not even exist.

I have to agree with this.

If you take any race from any fantasy setting, you would be able to find dozens of parallels to real life race or culture.

If you are seeing at any one race or culture when you look at a fantasy race, that is probably just you projecting your pre-existing thoughts and experiences on to that fantasy setting rather than taking that setting as it is presented.

Vhaeyne

I don't know if this is a sock poppet of the guy who tried this before, or a new troll. Can we just not feed the troll?

BlackBrony

I think representation matters, yes, but I think it does more in TV, series and movies.
And as long as game allow certain flexibilization, I'm ok with that.

I mean, do people care about virtual boobs? Yeah, some do. I mean, I always keep hearing the same argument "the other needs to change", but it's never "I will make things change".
If sex or boobs sells, it would be stupid not to take advantage of that, it's just asinine to not do it.

Game is a game, and shouldn't be held accountable to real world problems.

Warth

Nagash wrote: »

Its a game not real life please keep it like that

100% agreed

maouw

I'd even argue that the non-reality of video games makes them one of the best places to explore dangerous ideas in society.

What would happen if I ruled the world and declared war on every other country? --> Civilization
What if I robbed banks, stole cars and went on a killing spree? --> GTA
How hard is it for a disease to wipe out the entire human population? --> Plague Inc
What if I lived more than once? --> literally every game ever

These games never provide a perfect replication of reality, but they're still THE safest space to explore any idea.

loveyourselfirst

UsdiWaya wrote: »

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/06/29/884824236/dungeons-dragons-tries-to-banish-racist-stereotypes
In this NPR story you can read how historically problematic things like races can be and how under the surface of a game there are more things at work that actually do affect all of us (I am referencing representation here).
Here is a quote 5 paragraphs in.
"It's hard to see yourself in any role playing D&D if you're a person of color — specifically Black and brown people," she says. "A lot of the characters that are black or brown or blue ... they're evil, they're very one dimensional. And D&D is a game about being yourself and being anyone you want to be."

I think it's a lot to ask of a game like Ashes -- as game changing as we hope it will be -- to try and change the minds and viewpoints of gamers to be an inclusive safe space. I'm sure every female gamer has a story where a man has tried to invalidate them as gamers, where an LGBTQ person has been mocked or made fun of in a group, and a POC called a derogatory term.

Do I want Ashes to be like that? Sure, but we all know that won't happen. All we can do is try and change these things ourselves by displaying the behaviors that we want changed instead of wanting Steven and the crew to cull those certain behaviors.

Plus at the same time, there are certain elements that are universal in like most to all fantasy building elements. Evil races like Goblins or Non-humanoid creatures, Uptight and righteous races like Elves, and much more.

Not to echo the same thoughts above but yea it is a game.

Dygz

UsdiWaya wrote: »

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/06/29/884824236/dungeons-dragons-tries-to-banish-racist-stereotypes
In this NPR story you can read how historically problematic things like races can be and how under the surface of a game there are more things at work that actually do affect all of us (I am referencing representation here).
Here is a quote 5 paragraphs in.
"It's hard to see yourself in any role playing D&D if you're a person of color — specifically Black and brown people," she says. "A lot of the characters that are black or brown or blue ... they're evil, they're very one dimensional. And D&D is a game about being yourself and being anyone you want to be."

This quote means a lot to me because it is a gateway for some readers who may think that some of these difficult to quantify and under discussed things aren't important when they are, and then to see that veil lifted by Dungeons and Dragons which is one of the fathers of RPG games we all love. All of this opens up perceptions. A lot of things that don't affect us affect other people, and we need more empathy and more understanding across the board to bring us together so we are stronger and happier. That would make this game really fun to play with others.

Thanks for letting me share,

Wado,

-Todd

Crazy to me that that is a quote from 2020.
The quote is no longer true as of D&D 3.0 - which was released almost 20 years ago.
In 3E D&D, we finally so iconic characters with a wide variety of ethnic features. Depicted in D&D materials were heroic Clerics with African features, heroic Mages with heroic Halflings with Middle-Eastern features.
In Baldurs Gate 3 (D&D), which released earlier this year, I can create Halflings and Tiefling with African features.

AF1QipMzPS6TtJe0JzSNwAYmt1Q6MVXKrTZIhL8d6apS

Unfortunately, EQ released prior to D&D 3E and EQ2 was already in development when D&D 3E released. The designers still had an AD&D mindset. The main iconic character for EQ is blond-haired and blue-eyed. EQ later tried to rectify lack of African representation by introducing the Erudite.
World of Warcraft released around 5 years after D&D 3E - the original leader of the good faction, The Alliance, was fair-skinned, blue-eyed with dark hair. The current leader is fair-skinned, blue-eyed with blond hair. And the secondary protagonist is fair-skinned, silver eyed with silver hair. All with European features.
Iconic characters with non-European characteristics are on the evil faction - the Horde. The Horde is evil because Warcraft began as Orcs v Humans. And the developers apparently never though about having any non-European Humans - until this year's release of the Shadowlands expansion.
I wasn't particularly bothered by watching Baine get choked out - I did feel annoyed that the slant of the opening cinematics and beginning quest line seemed slanted for us all to be horrified that the blond-haired, blue-eyed protagonist was kidnapped and in chains - with Baine's plight being mostly an afterthought.
We rescue Jaina Proudmoore and Anduin Wrynn almost immediately. We do also rescue Thrall fairly early, but I think we have to reach endgame before we rescue Baine.
At least now, we can have pics and vids of non-European Humans as members of a party among the iconic characters. It's a great step in the right direction, but we still need to have more real-world ethnic representation among the non-Human Alliance races, like Halflings, Gnomes, Elves and Dwarves.
Most of the Shadowlands expansion does not deal with the Alliance/Horde storyline, so...it's also great to be able to have non-European Humans as primary protagonists for most of the gameplay for those who so choose.

While the Niküa are also a great step in the right direct for Ashes, we also should see a variety of real-world ethnic features available in the other playable and non-playable Ashes races. We should also be able to create Pyrean and Dünir with non-European ethnic features.
The Landmark set my measure for ethnic representation in an Alpha. For the Landmark Alpha, which released almost 7 years ago, I was able to create a character that looks like me (with African ethnic features).
If SOE devs could do that 7 years ago, I expect that to be the case for former Daybreak devs working on Ashes now. I was highly disappointed that that was not the case for APOC and...even the statues in APOC were overly European. That was 2018. We should be much closer to the Landmark options by 2020/2021.

I am very disappointed by Steven's statement to not apply real world culture issues to a video game.
It is very important to apply real world cultural issues to mass entertainment because mass entertainment - which includes massively multiplayer video games - significantly impacts real world cultural issues - especially the lack of representation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkpUyB2xgTM
One of the reasons that the psychology of the Doll Test is the same today as it was 60+ years ago is the lack of representation. When all kids see are heroes with European features, it's easy to understand who the "good guys" are supposed to be and who is undesirable.
And... if we can't even adequately have a discussion for fear of censorship, we can't really hope to advocate for change.

Back in 2015, on the EQNext forums, someone advocated for the devs to have include a mechanic for pronouns that would support gender-fluid characters. I initially was against the proposition. I did support gender-neutral pronouns and a mechanic for trans characters to choose appropriate pronouns, but I felt gender-fluid pronoun support was unnecessary. Because I hadn't even heard of gender-fluid prior to that discussion (I'm old).
After 4 days of discussion, I finally understood what gender-fluidity is. And then, I whole-heartedly supported the suggestion. And I'm grateful for that discussion because 2 years later, when my brother called me bewildered by his teen-aged son dating a gender-fluid person, I was able to explain it to him.

Representation in video games is important because it significantly affects real-world culture in a variety of ways. Discussion on video game forums of how representation ( and the lack of representation) in video games affects real world culture is almost more important than how much positive representation makes it into a specific game. Because even if it's too late to make a change for the specific game in development, it makes it possible for positive changes to make it into subsequent games.

(Also, it is not an assumption that devs have an ulterior motive that causes these posts - it's the assumption from past experience that devs don't think of the impact lack of positive representation has on real-world experiences.)

Hakaiju

UsdiWaya wrote: »

Representation is a big deal to me. I study intergenerational trauma, indigenous language, sexuality, gender, and histories of women and indigenous peoples.

This sounds like a certificate to feel offended by everything and anything.

sarkado

I play games to have fun, not deal with real world issues. Games for me at least are meant to be a "get-away" from my daily stresses. Why would I want to bring those same issues back into my fun time? I stand 100% with Steven that the game should remain under his creative direction and not have to change his vision of the world and game because people cant differentiate between reality and imagination.

Nagash

I find it odd how they joined yesterday and this is there first ever post

sarkado

Nagash wrote: »

I find it odd how they joined yesterday and this is there first ever post

Isn't this basically every other discussion that ever gets made? Usually a day 1 account that is unhappy with the current "ALPHA" of the game.

Nagash

sarkado wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

I find it odd how they joined yesterday and this is there first ever post

Isn't this basically every other discussion that ever gets made? Usually a day 1 account that is unhappy with the current "ALPHA" of the game.

Yep

BlackBrony

Dygz wrote: »

Representation in video games is important because it significantly affects real-world culture in a variety of ways

Do you think the risk of badly incorporating these issues are lower than not incoporating them at all?
People don't like when they feel they're getting fed the "liberal agenda".
Incoporating of all these things in a proper way requires money, tons of studies, subtle ways of doing it.

Reality is that most of these games are done by the straight white males and adding people of different background ain't that easy if all the best talent are straight white male.

I can't understand how women feel on certain issues no matter how try I hard, so unless you get people who really know the subject you're bound to make mistakes and it might make things worst when you can just instead rely on the current stereotype of things.

FuryBladeborne

UsdiWaya wrote: »

This character was supposed to be the leader of his people but instead is being cast as “The Crying Indian” from 1971’s recycling commercials. The Tauren are appropriated indigenous peoples made into 'cows' that are struggling to keep their land. And if you think Cows are not directly referencing the slaughter of cows for meat and you don't need to be shocked at the tameness of such a correlation for indigenous players, let me prepare you for rucking fediculous as there is dialogue that exists today of Tauren being referenced as a food item for the fair-skinned blood-elves.

Given the existence of a race that is a cross between cows and humans, a reference that the cows being food is a completely logical thing to assume that a racial enemy (or even a random person) would say about them. The statement in no way indicates that this cow race is supposed to represent a group of people in real life.

Just FYI,
Research studies have demonstrated that when people believe that two variables are correlated, they will see a connection even in data where they are totally unrelated.

https://psychcentral.com/lib/patterns-the-need-for-order#3

If you look for a pattern you will tend to find one even in total randomness.

Noaani

FuryBladeborne wrote: »

If you look for a pattern you will tend to find one even in total randomness.

Indeed.

Dygz

BlackBrony wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Representation in video games is important because it significantly affects real-world culture in a variety of ways

Do you think the risk of badly incorporating these issues are lower than not incorporating them at all?
People don't like when they feel they're getting fed the "liberal agenda".
Incoporating of all these things in a proper way requires money, tons of studies, subtle ways of doing it.

People not liking a "liberal agenda" is irrelevant.

Dygz

sarkado wrote: »

I play games to have fun, not deal with real world issues. Games for me at least are meant to be a "get-away" from my daily stresses. Why would I want to bring those same issues back into my fun time?

I agree. Systemic racism is not fun.

Marcet

In league of legends for example, they released some cool characters of color, lucian, ekko, senna... but black people always play teemo, that's a fact xD

So I don't know if you really need representation, but I think Valeune would be some kind of Phenicians or Carthaginian people, wich are very badass people of color.

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