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My feedback and concerns for developers.
UsdiWaya
Member
MOD NOTE: Hi all. The following post talks about minority representation in video games. I'm expecting some passionate debate from this and there's a chance you will disagree with the OP here. I'm leaving this thread open for now but I want to remind everyone to debate the topic and not resort to personal insults against either groups or individuals. I will be monitoring this thread carefully.
Wandering Mist.
“The personal is the political.” - Audre Lorde
Siyo/Osiyo/Chokma/Hello,
I wanted to take some time and write this morning to the developers. I am very happy with Ashes of Creation so far, and I want to learn more about it. I have history from EQ, WoW, and the EQNext community/landmark. All of these games have depreciated in quality and or have disappeared entirely. I am here to critique and help opinionate some topics and themes that are important to me. If anything I post violates the Forum Rules & Code of Conduct in a blatant way I do not understand please take this post down and talk with me.
That said,
Representation is a big deal to me. I study intergenerational trauma, indigenous language, sexuality, gender, and histories of women and indigenous peoples.
Pantheon RoTF late creator Brad McQuaid wanted to portray the women in Pantheon in such a way that his own daughter would be able to play. This directly targets the softcore nature of feminin models in Korean and Japanese mmorpg markets such as Tera or just about any anime styled game. Knowing the struggles of women and the disparity of women and girls who play 'games', being able to see yourself in a serious way and not just as a pin-up model is important.
So far I am happy to see bodies fully covered in armor and idle stances that are not overtly different from other models and the diminutive nature that creators seem to use for differentiating genders isn't as over the top--Bravo.
For those that want the perfect bodies, I get Roman/Greek styled art that is more about perfection and making things in a way to deny the idea of 'time' (specifically greek art). However there are already too many games like this that home in on these outdated and troublesome societies.
I want AoC to...
continue to think about the portrayal of women in their games in a way that does not placate to men but instead placates to women and girls in what they want to look like in reference to the gameworld.
think about representation of LGBTQ2spirit people and the best way to let our bodies exist in these spaces and stories. If you need help you can e-mail me: my studies have a lot to do with this and I can get you resources.
place people of color and LGBTQ2spirit people in limelights, stay away from tropes (Our bodies don't need to be cast aside for the sake of other stories, we don't need to be any more tragic, we need to be heroic and survive.)
Treat indigenous-like cultures in your game with respect and care. Don’t take the step out of representation into appropriation as so many have done in the past.
The Tauren from World of Warcraft are a playable race of indigenous Cow people. I just got done watching a Tauren be choked out and thrown off a cliff dead. Previously I saw that same Tauren chained up in some horrible prison. This is from the newest content at World of Warcraft. This character was supposed to be the leader of his people but instead is being cast as “The Crying Indian” from 1971’s recycling commercials. The Tauren are appropriated indigenous peoples made into 'cows' that are struggling to keep their land. And if you think Cows are not directly referencing the slaughter of cows for meat and you don't need to be shocked at the tameness of such a correlation for indigenous players, let me prepare you for rucking fediculous as there is dialogue that exists today of Tauren being referenced as a food item for the fair-skinned blood-elves.
Why I am referencing this
AoC I don’t want you to do this. I don’t want you to rip off of struggling cultures and I don’t want you to portray your indigenous as ‘dumb’ and ‘savage’. We are wise and strong just like Indigenous women and we should be respected.
https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/06/29/884824236/dungeons-dragons-tries-to-banish-racist-stereotypes
In this NPR story you can read how historically problematic things like races can be and how under the surface of a game there are more things at work that actually do affect all of us (I am referencing representation here).
Here is a quote 5 paragraphs in.
"It's hard to see yourself in any role playing D&D if you're a person of color — specifically Black and brown people," she says. "A lot of the characters that are black or brown or blue ... they're evil, they're very one dimensional. And D&D is a game about being yourself and being anyone you want to be."
This quote means a lot to me because it is a gateway for some readers who may think that some of these difficult to quantify and under discussed things aren't important when they are, and then to see that veil lifted by Dungeons and Dragons which is one of the fathers of RPG games we all love. All of this opens up perceptions. A lot of things that don't affect us affect other people, and we need more empathy and more understanding across the board to bring us together so we are stronger and happier. That would make this game really fun to play with others.
Thanks for letting me share,
Wado,
-Todd
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This discussion has been closed.
Comments
At the end of the day, most gamers will take a race or character at face value, and either like it or hate it. Just because a WoW player doesn't like the Tauren doesn't mean they are prejudiced against Native American Indians. Maybe I'm jumping the gun here a little but if you asked your average WoW player why they don't like the Tauren, it will usually be something like "I don't like the way they look" or "I don't like their animations" or "I don't like their starting zone", rather than anything related to real life cultures.
At the end of the day, writers will often draw inspiration from real world events and cultures, as that is how our minds work. Dig deep enough and you can find parallels to any civilisation you can think of, but as Nagash said, it's a game, not real life. That's an important distinction to make.
If you take any race from any fantasy setting, you would be able to find dozens of parallels to real life race or culture.
If you are seeing at any one race or culture when you look at a fantasy race, that is probably just you projecting your pre-existing thoughts and experiences on to that fantasy setting rather than taking that setting as it is presented.
I don't know if this is a sock poppet of the guy who tried this before, or a new troll. Can we just not feed the troll?
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
And as long as game allow certain flexibilization, I'm ok with that.
I mean, do people care about virtual boobs? Yeah, some do. I mean, I always keep hearing the same argument "the other needs to change", but it's never "I will make things change".
If sex or boobs sells, it would be stupid not to take advantage of that, it's just asinine to not do it.
Game is a game, and shouldn't be held accountable to real world problems.
100% agreed
What would happen if I ruled the world and declared war on every other country? --> Civilization
What if I robbed banks, stole cars and went on a killing spree? --> GTA
How hard is it for a disease to wipe out the entire human population? --> Plague Inc
What if I lived more than once? --> literally every game ever
These games never provide a perfect replication of reality, but they're still THE safest space to explore any idea.
The quote is no longer true as of D&D 3.0 - which was released almost 20 years ago.
In 3E D&D, we finally so iconic characters with a wide variety of ethnic features. Depicted in D&D materials were heroic Clerics with African features, heroic Mages with heroic Halflings with Middle-Eastern features.
In Baldurs Gate 3 (D&D), which released earlier this year, I can create Halflings and Tiefling with African features.
Unfortunately, EQ released prior to D&D 3E and EQ2 was already in development when D&D 3E released. The designers still had an AD&D mindset. The main iconic character for EQ is blond-haired and blue-eyed. EQ later tried to rectify lack of African representation by introducing the Erudite.
World of Warcraft released around 5 years after D&D 3E - the original leader of the good faction, The Alliance, was fair-skinned, blue-eyed with dark hair. The current leader is fair-skinned, blue-eyed with blond hair. And the secondary protagonist is fair-skinned, silver eyed with silver hair. All with European features.
Iconic characters with non-European characteristics are on the evil faction - the Horde. The Horde is evil because Warcraft began as Orcs v Humans. And the developers apparently never though about having any non-European Humans - until this year's release of the Shadowlands expansion.
I wasn't particularly bothered by watching Baine get choked out - I did feel annoyed that the slant of the opening cinematics and beginning quest line seemed slanted for us all to be horrified that the blond-haired, blue-eyed protagonist was kidnapped and in chains - with Baine's plight being mostly an afterthought.
We rescue Jaina Proudmoore and Anduin Wrynn almost immediately. We do also rescue Thrall fairly early, but I think we have to reach endgame before we rescue Baine.
At least now, we can have pics and vids of non-European Humans as members of a party among the iconic characters. It's a great step in the right direction, but we still need to have more real-world ethnic representation among the non-Human Alliance races, like Halflings, Gnomes, Elves and Dwarves.
Most of the Shadowlands expansion does not deal with the Alliance/Horde storyline, so...it's also great to be able to have non-European Humans as primary protagonists for most of the gameplay for those who so choose.
While the Niküa are also a great step in the right direct for Ashes, we also should see a variety of real-world ethnic features available in the other playable and non-playable Ashes races. We should also be able to create Pyrean and Dünir with non-European ethnic features.
The Landmark set my measure for ethnic representation in an Alpha. For the Landmark Alpha, which released almost 7 years ago, I was able to create a character that looks like me (with African ethnic features).
If SOE devs could do that 7 years ago, I expect that to be the case for former Daybreak devs working on Ashes now. I was highly disappointed that that was not the case for APOC and...even the statues in APOC were overly European. That was 2018. We should be much closer to the Landmark options by 2020/2021.
I am very disappointed by Steven's statement to not apply real world culture issues to a video game.
It is very important to apply real world cultural issues to mass entertainment because mass entertainment - which includes massively multiplayer video games - significantly impacts real world cultural issues - especially the lack of representation.
One of the reasons that the psychology of the Doll Test is the same today as it was 60+ years ago is the lack of representation. When all kids see are heroes with European features, it's easy to understand who the "good guys" are supposed to be and who is undesirable.
And... if we can't even adequately have a discussion for fear of censorship, we can't really hope to advocate for change.
Back in 2015, on the EQNext forums, someone advocated for the devs to have include a mechanic for pronouns that would support gender-fluid characters. I initially was against the proposition. I did support gender-neutral pronouns and a mechanic for trans characters to choose appropriate pronouns, but I felt gender-fluid pronoun support was unnecessary. Because I hadn't even heard of gender-fluid prior to that discussion (I'm old).
After 4 days of discussion, I finally understood what gender-fluidity is. And then, I whole-heartedly supported the suggestion. And I'm grateful for that discussion because 2 years later, when my brother called me bewildered by his teen-aged son dating a gender-fluid person, I was able to explain it to him.
Representation in video games is important because it significantly affects real-world culture in a variety of ways. Discussion on video game forums of how representation ( and the lack of representation) in video games affects real world culture is almost more important than how much positive representation makes it into a specific game. Because even if it's too late to make a change for the specific game in development, it makes it possible for positive changes to make it into subsequent games.
(Also, it is not an assumption that devs have an ulterior motive that causes these posts - it's the assumption from past experience that devs don't think of the impact lack of positive representation has on real-world experiences.)
This sounds like a certificate to feel offended by everything and anything.
Isn't this basically every other discussion that ever gets made? Usually a day 1 account that is unhappy with the current "ALPHA" of the game.
Yep
Do you think the risk of badly incorporating these issues are lower than not incoporating them at all?
People don't like when they feel they're getting fed the "liberal agenda".
Incoporating of all these things in a proper way requires money, tons of studies, subtle ways of doing it.
Reality is that most of these games are done by the straight white males and adding people of different background ain't that easy if all the best talent are straight white male.
I can't understand how women feel on certain issues no matter how try I hard, so unless you get people who really know the subject you're bound to make mistakes and it might make things worst when you can just instead rely on the current stereotype of things.
Just FYI,
Research studies have demonstrated that when people believe that two variables are correlated, they will see a connection even in data where they are totally unrelated.
https://psychcentral.com/lib/patterns-the-need-for-order#3
If you look for a pattern you will tend to find one even in total randomness.
So I don't know if you really need representation, but I think Valeune would be some kind of Phenicians or Carthaginian people, wich are very badass people of color.
My expectation for the game is that we will see a diverse human character creation, where players can hopefully self-express to their hearts content with facial features, skin color and hair styles and what-not.
I would absolutely LOVE to see that extended to the other races as well. A black skinned dwarf or elf with dreadlocks? I am all about it as an option. But, my expectation is that the dwarves and elves at least will be your typical "whites only" races that we know from other games. I don't quite have a feel for where they are taking the orcs yet.
This game will have racism. Specifically among the 5 playable races. A hugely impactful game mechanic is how nodes look when they level up in terms of racial buildings, and that will bring tension among some of the players. My (perhaps futile) hope is that the player base is mature enough to not let it get ugly.
Wandering Mist
What you explained about Tauren, race, and your thought about face value is leaning more towards describing something else that is happening which is called 'Covert Racism' and not some idea of ulterior motive. This is uncomfortable to talk about for a lot of people.
It's about what goes under the radar, what is not immediately suspect. --So when you say the writers had no idea what they were doing, and that they were innocent: this does not equate to no harm being done. It’s like structured violence in that way. It is understandable this stuff happens all the time because this is a country founded on some dark stuff (slavery, genocide and racism). I have also heard things like I don't like Tauren because they are stupid cows/too big/start in BS Mulgore etc. But there is intersectionality (not randomness) happening when you add layers onto that like what can you tell me about the players?
FuryBladeborne there is indication the tauren represents a group of real life people (and there are essays about this) when you see Adorning Eagle Feathers, Totem Poles, Tipi, Dream Catchers all mixed into one race living in the plains. It’s North American indigenous people--Sioux, Pawnee, Blackfeet, Crow, Assiniboines, Chinook etc that are brought up. I did not reference these things when discussing the tauren race and if I had it would have helped. What you mentioned about patterns out of randomness is real though, thanks for mentioning that though: it can be used to help talk people down when they are paranoid if it fits. Check this out--this is what Killer Instinct did with Chief Thunder who has been a joke about appropriation and racism since KI1 came out. Tl;dr they reached out to Nez Percé and the Nez Percé helped them redesign the character.
https://kotaku.com/killer-instincts-thunder-gets-a-more-culturally-accurat-1790380604
*start edit Dec 26 2020@10:40am*
Some other examples of covert racism in this thread.
Black people always play teemo -Marcet (This is generalizing kind of like saying black people always eat watermelon. Mexicans always play Graves from LoL etc.)
Saying all the best talent is straight white males. -BlackBrony (Hire a PoC.)*end edit Dec 26 2020*
and anyone else worried about implementation, suggesting trying is failing from the beginning--you have to trust in the developers. They are talented and passionate and have come this far I would need to have a string of habitual failures for me to not trust them. I am impressed with the effort these developers have put into this game and I don’t mind trusting them. I like what they are doing- I mean, I sit with a stupid smile on my face looking at how cool the mounts are. That Turtle looks so amazing.
Let’s be really honest right now. When the developer is gleaning information from the forums-touching on that energy and direction to make the best game that works for the right target market, they want to succeed in meeting the needs and expectations we pay money for. The Developer is also in charge of researching and developing (learning and applying) systems that create the content we enjoy.
It is ok and expected for someone to make recommendations, suggestions and also respond directly with what they like and don’t like. That information is super important for developing something for the audience.
This is me as a player trying to say what it is I want and showing my hopes and fears (even examples of my fears). I expect if the things I am talking about have an actual effect on the game the developer will treat that the same as any other community influenced changes. They will research, spend the right amount of budget to incorporate the right systems or even hire the right person to help them succeed.
It is not my goal to offend anyone, so if I have done so please tell me.
Wado
I mean, ignoring your point about feeling bullied (what?), ignoring the fact you thought people disagreeing with you meant the thread should be removed (what?), ignoring the overall fact you are trying to find real world politics in a fantasy setting (what?), the simple fact that you grossly mis-represented another persons opinion totally debases anything you are trying to say here.
He said that the reality is that most of these games (MMO's) are made by straight white males. He didn't say that is where the best talent is, he said that is who tends to make these games. While this is not technically 100% correct in the case of Ashes, it is still mostly correct.
You can not like the fact that he is correct if you like, but do not call him out for racism when all he is doing is pointing out a fact.
People often talk about how stressful it can be to be in a minority group, but sometimes it can just as stressful being in a group where your actions are scrutinised and judged, and any slight mistake is taken as prejudice on your part.
For example, I'm a swimming teacher and spring-board diving coach, which means I spend a lot of time in close contact with children with very little clothing on. This means that there are times (especially in diving) when I have to make physical contact with a child in order to support them safely. I have no paedophilic tendencies at all, however I have to be so so careful about what I say, what I do, where I look, where I place my hands, because I know that if I make a mistake I could get accused of being a paedophile. If that happens, even if it's not true, my career would be finished in a heartbeat. This can be quite stressful and in some ways disruptive in my work.
Here's a classic real world example of this kind of thing in action: https://japantoday.com/category/national/man-revives-woman-with-aed-but-branded-pervert-for-removing-her-clothes-to-apply-electrode-pads
For those unaware, if someone has a cardiac arrest, all lifeguards are trained to administer CPR and use a defibrillator (defib) to attempt to save that person's life. The defib applies a shock of electricity to restart the heart, which is does through 2 pads that are placed on the patient's chest. These pads have to be placed on bare skin, which invariably means removing any clothing that's in the way.
Just for a moment imagine how that feels. You are doing your best to save someone's life, following your training, and in return you get branded as a pervert.
You just called me a racist??
You just put a sticker on me because of the perception I have in black people preferences on league of legends characters??
I know this forum has to be civil, but wow, wow... It's hard to respond calmly when someone that doesn't know you calls you a racist, without knowing anything about my life or me as a person.
I don't know what to say, I thought you were very passionate about your studies and believes so I gave you a pass, but now I see what kind of person you are. Marking others to be linched out of fear and bullying mentality. I hope I expressed myself good cuz im not english.
you know the saying never dive in to help a drowning man
I do not think that OP is trying to be a troll at all, to talk bad bout the game being developed (because they didn't say anything bad about the game.
Without getting into any personal detail I am gaining a much better perspective on all things oppression related. Because of that I can see, understand, and support what OP is saying about how proper representation is important for an inclusive game.
It is my belief that all all people who grew up in a NA perspective have points of view which have racism integrated in them. I am NOT saying that this is their fault at all, I am saying that racism has been ingrained within a systemic context and it is almost impossible to not root back to something that has a racist context. And from my understanding OP is just asking Dev's to be mindful of this fact and try to be conscious of this during the development of all things in order to make sure the game can be not just available to all but also inclusive and accessible.
Thank you for your time in reading this,
Skylarck The Botanist