In the large scale of things what you want does not or will ever matter, since it is not your game. You are more than welcome to provide feedback and share your thoughts. But in the end, it is Steven's game, and he will make it the way he wants and if you do not like it, well nobody forces you to stay.
I am very happy with Ashes of Creation so far, and I want to learn more about it.
I do not think that OP is trying to be a troll at all, to talk bad bout the game being developed (because they didn't say anything bad about the game.
Without getting into any personal detail I am gaining a much better perspective on all things oppression related. Because of that I can see, understand, and support what OP is saying about how proper representation is important for an inclusive game.
It is my belief that all all people who grew up in a NA perspective have points of view which have racism integrated in them. I am NOT saying that this is their fault at all, I am saying that racism has been ingrained within a systemic context and it is almost impossible to not root back to something that has a racist context. And from my understanding OP is just asking Dev's to be mindful of this fact and try to be conscious of this during the development of all things in order to make sure the game can be not just available to all but also inclusive and accessible.
Thank you for your time in reading this,
Skylarck The Botanist
You understand me more, and I am happy for it. I just want to be understood. It would really help if the terminology I was using was understood.
People who grow up in NA experience racism. People that come from other countries where there is no racism are generally confused when they come to America and experience it. It's confusing and painful. I expect when things like intergenerational trauma and racism are discussed we are going to see the eggshells everywhere and I don't think there would be a pair of shoes not covered in that white garbage. I'm really not calling anyone a Racist, but I completely understand how sensitive people feel when those topics are brought up.
Before anyone writes back to me can you please reread what you write and try to go easy on me. I'm really not trying to fight. Or private message. I duno, this sucks right now. Just want to learn about the game and be among friends.
I find this thread really interesting. I'm not from the US, but I can somehow empathize with this.
Usually my worries on this is that to have a respectful representation means additional money because you can't just hire PoC or native people because they might not have the necessary knowledge for such.
We also know that you can't hire a white person to talk about this because people won't like it.
So... does this mean that every game needs to have, I don't know, antropologist/sociologist analyzing the game and its story to find out if representation is ok?
Having good intentions is not enough, and if you don't hire people who have such knowledge, it will go wrong.
Intentions don't matter, if you do it wrong you do it wrong.
It's about what goes under the radar, what is not immediately suspect. --So when you say the writers had no idea what they were doing, and that they were innocent: this does not equate to no harm being done. It’s like structured violence in that way.
I believe it is - in a way - violence as well to force game devs / the community to walk on eggshells OR ELSE, just in case they make a small mistake that someone somewhere does not like. Remember that there's a lot of artistic points of view in games that have nothing to do with politics or minority groups of people. This is an MMO, it is a fantasy setting in a video game. A vast world with all sorts of people playing in it. Let's not bring real life politics into it. Thanks. Otherwise we'll be discussing every sad event in the world's history, and how they give game devs ulterior motives just because someone spotted a connection somewhere. I am not from the US, but am aware of the big political discussions there, and follow the left vs. right yelling contest. I do not want to see it happen in the one place where I go to relax and get away from a world full of people yelling at each other and demanding justice for whatever.
Also, as for the original post; my wife is a pin-up model (because she wants to be) and we take it very seriously.
Before anyone writes back to me can you please reread what you write and try to go easy on me. I'm really not trying to fight. Or private message. I duno, this sucks right now. Just want to learn about the game and be among friends.
Then talk about the game and learn about the game. Bringing racism and other political issues into the game conversation is pointless and causes a lot of emotionally driven toxicity from whoever talks about it. I don't care if you can compare the plight of x race to x game race, there is no underlying threat to your safety, your being or otherwise. Let the game designers build a living breathing world and just like real life that will entail a clash between races, cultures, and cause bitterness/resentment between sides. The game is telling a story, sit along for the ride and get angry at characters, actions, and such. Don't blame the game developer if an orc hates dwarves or vice versa.
Also, stop this pity party you are throwing for yourself because people disagree with you. Stand by your beliefs and accept others even if they disagree with you, they are people too. No one here is out to get you, no one cares who you are behind that screen. We are here to have fun talking about the game and what we would like to do in it, so feel free to do the same.
You want the game to represent women in a way that standard women can compare without feeling
objectified or having a unrealistic expectation of perfection being placed on them.
That is totally relatable and I can get behind that. Ashes currently did so and I say thats a good thing.
But please dont forget that women also like to dress up sometimes and that should also be represented.
I know that that could be taken with a grain of salt because I am a man, but its the truth.
I have several female friends who all like to sometimes transmog into the sluttiest outfits ever, because its fun.
AND THATS WHAT ITS ABOUT: FUN!
Concerning your "Tauren are all indigenous people and should not be objectified as such" nonesense.
Yes, Tauren were created with indigenous american designs, but they had none of the associated background story.
There may be some similarities. But everything has similarities with the real world because thats where developers draw inspiration from.
WoW also tortured other characters and abused them mentally, physically and emotionally in the past.
I didnt hear you mention them...
You are reading too much into the scene tbh, Baine was fine in the end and he was not singled out for being a Tauren.
He is a attacking warloeader and fought against his enemy. He also got stomped and thrown off a cliff. None of that had to do with him being Tauren.
You are crying about inside jokes and got into your headspace that everything has to be a homage to real world problems.
I am also a minority where I live and I never had any problem with these things in games.
GAMES ARE NOT THE REAL WORLD AND REAL WORLD PROBLEMS SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION WHILE PLAYING A GAME.
GAMES ARE THERE TO HAVE FUN IN AND NOT TO BE COMPARED WITH THE REAL WORLD, YOU SHOULD NOT BE FEELING ATTACKED BECAUSE A WALKING COW PERSON GOT DROPPED OF A CLIFF ONLY BECAUSE IT HAS A COMPARABLE DESIGN PHYLOSOPHY AS OTHER REAL WORLD GROUPS.
0
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@UsdiWaya I'm not going to deny that there are people out there with ulterior motives and prejudices towards different groups, because there are. HOWEVER, it's important to state that just because there are developers or writers that purposefully inject their prejudice into their work, doesn't mean that every developer or writer does it.
People often talk about how stressful it can be to be in a minority group, but sometimes it can just as stressful being in a group where your actions are scrutinised and judged, and any slight mistake is taken as prejudice on your part.
For example, I'm a swimming teacher and spring-board diving coach, which means I spend a lot of time in close contact with children with very little clothing on. This means that there are times (especially in diving) when I have to make physical contact with a child in order to support them safely. I have no paedophilic tendencies at all, however I have to be so so careful about what I say, what I do, where I look, where I place my hands, because I know that if I make a mistake I could get accused of being a paedophile. If that happens, even if it's not true, my career would be finished in a heartbeat. This can be quite stressful and in some ways disruptive in my work.
For those unaware, if someone has a cardiac arrest, all lifeguards are trained to administer CPR and use a defibrillator (defib) to attempt to save that person's life. The defib applies a shock of electricity to restart the heart, which is does through 2 pads that are placed on the patient's chest. These pads have to be placed on bare skin, which invariably means removing any clothing that's in the way.
Just for a moment imagine how that feels. You are doing your best to save someone's life, following your training, and in return you get branded as a pervert.
It's really not about people purposefully injecting prejudices - it's about people inadvertently perpetuating systemic racism, sexism, homophobia and white supremacy out of tradition, without thinking about the ramifications.
And, the only way to have a hope of making change is to use the proper terms and discuss the concerns.
25+ years ago, I was discussing lack of representation in video games with a Irani high school friend of mine. She said, 'But, you know, you can see yourself (African Americans) on billboards. I cannot see myself on billboards."
I realized she was right. At that time, in the US, media would sometimes feature African Americans to ameliorate concerns about diversity, but it was rare to see Latinos, Asians, Polynesians, Native Americans, Indians, Middle Easterns, etc as primary protagonists in films, on TV, on billboards or in books.
And, I realized that when I wrote Fantasy and Sci-fi stories I most often had white, European/American protagonists. Every once in a while I might have an African/American protagonist. Because that is the tradition and I didn't really think about changing the tradition or what impact that might have on any potential audience.
And that is the moment that I understood that creators have a responsibility to make conscious choices about representation in mass entertainment, the lack of representation and the impact on US society...because otherwise we just perpetuate the status quo from 50+ years ago when racial segregation, degradation, appropriation and stereotyping was the norm.
No one should be feeling any stress from being told, "Hey, your game has no female heroes in it. I'm a female and I don't like being forced to play male heroes in this massively multiplayer game." In 2020/2021 that's pretty much the same for any other "minority". In 2020/2021, game devs should not be feeling any stress from being told they need to include non-European ethnic features among the hero options in character creation and that non-European cultures and characters of color should not be stuck with portrayals as primitive, savage, uncivilized, of low intelligence, bestial and/or evil. In 2020/2021, game devs should be figuring out how to include non-binary and non-cis pronouns - just as they should be contemplating how to positively represent women as well as men. And, if there are romances in the game, there should be a variety of options besides just heterosexual romances (Baldur's Gate 3 also does that fairly well, I think, much to my surprise).
My office just had sexual harassment training a few weeks ago. I feel no stress keeping my hands to myself.
25 years ago, when women informed me that it is degrading for men to call women girls, I adjusted my behavior and stopped referring to women as girls. That did not cause me stress.
15 years ago, when I worked at The Black AIDS Institute, I over heard a trans person referring to trans people as trannies. I picked up that terminology, but was later told that it's offensive for cis people to call trans people trannies. So, I made the adjustment. That did not cause stress.
Equal respect should not cause stress. And should not be hindering job performance.
2
deadmanspriceModerator, Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
This thread has been closed as it relates to identity politics which is related to real world. I can also see this thread has been coming non productive for some time hence the closure. Please do not bring the real world issues here, as this is purely fantasy and is meant to be a place where you can escape to.
Comments
You understand me more, and I am happy for it. I just want to be understood. It would really help if the terminology I was using was understood.
People who grow up in NA experience racism. People that come from other countries where there is no racism are generally confused when they come to America and experience it. It's confusing and painful. I expect when things like intergenerational trauma and racism are discussed we are going to see the eggshells everywhere and I don't think there would be a pair of shoes not covered in that white garbage. I'm really not calling anyone a Racist, but I completely understand how sensitive people feel when those topics are brought up.
Before anyone writes back to me can you please reread what you write and try to go easy on me. I'm really not trying to fight. Or private message. I duno, this sucks right now. Just want to learn about the game and be among friends.
Usually my worries on this is that to have a respectful representation means additional money because you can't just hire PoC or native people because they might not have the necessary knowledge for such.
We also know that you can't hire a white person to talk about this because people won't like it.
So... does this mean that every game needs to have, I don't know, antropologist/sociologist analyzing the game and its story to find out if representation is ok?
Having good intentions is not enough, and if you don't hire people who have such knowledge, it will go wrong.
Intentions don't matter, if you do it wrong you do it wrong.
I believe it is - in a way - violence as well to force game devs / the community to walk on eggshells OR ELSE, just in case they make a small mistake that someone somewhere does not like. Remember that there's a lot of artistic points of view in games that have nothing to do with politics or minority groups of people. This is an MMO, it is a fantasy setting in a video game. A vast world with all sorts of people playing in it. Let's not bring real life politics into it. Thanks. Otherwise we'll be discussing every sad event in the world's history, and how they give game devs ulterior motives just because someone spotted a connection somewhere. I am not from the US, but am aware of the big political discussions there, and follow the left vs. right yelling contest. I do not want to see it happen in the one place where I go to relax and get away from a world full of people yelling at each other and demanding justice for whatever.
Also, as for the original post; my wife is a pin-up model (because she wants to be) and we take it very seriously.
Then talk about the game and learn about the game. Bringing racism and other political issues into the game conversation is pointless and causes a lot of emotionally driven toxicity from whoever talks about it. I don't care if you can compare the plight of x race to x game race, there is no underlying threat to your safety, your being or otherwise. Let the game designers build a living breathing world and just like real life that will entail a clash between races, cultures, and cause bitterness/resentment between sides. The game is telling a story, sit along for the ride and get angry at characters, actions, and such. Don't blame the game developer if an orc hates dwarves or vice versa.
Also, stop this pity party you are throwing for yourself because people disagree with you. Stand by your beliefs and accept others even if they disagree with you, they are people too. No one here is out to get you, no one cares who you are behind that screen. We are here to have fun talking about the game and what we would like to do in it, so feel free to do the same.
Quite honestly, we have been.
You want the game to represent women in a way that standard women can compare without feeling
objectified or having a unrealistic expectation of perfection being placed on them.
That is totally relatable and I can get behind that. Ashes currently did so and I say thats a good thing.
But please dont forget that women also like to dress up sometimes and that should also be represented.
I know that that could be taken with a grain of salt because I am a man, but its the truth.
I have several female friends who all like to sometimes transmog into the sluttiest outfits ever, because its fun.
AND THATS WHAT ITS ABOUT: FUN!
Concerning your "Tauren are all indigenous people and should not be objectified as such" nonesense.
Yes, Tauren were created with indigenous american designs, but they had none of the associated background story.
There may be some similarities. But everything has similarities with the real world because thats where developers draw inspiration from.
WoW also tortured other characters and abused them mentally, physically and emotionally in the past.
I didnt hear you mention them...
You are reading too much into the scene tbh, Baine was fine in the end and he was not singled out for being a Tauren.
He is a attacking warloeader and fought against his enemy. He also got stomped and thrown off a cliff. None of that had to do with him being Tauren.
You are crying about inside jokes and got into your headspace that everything has to be a homage to real world problems.
I am also a minority where I live and I never had any problem with these things in games.
GAMES ARE NOT THE REAL WORLD AND REAL WORLD PROBLEMS SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION WHILE PLAYING A GAME.
GAMES ARE THERE TO HAVE FUN IN AND NOT TO BE COMPARED WITH THE REAL WORLD, YOU SHOULD NOT BE FEELING ATTACKED BECAUSE A WALKING COW PERSON GOT DROPPED OF A CLIFF ONLY BECAUSE IT HAS A COMPARABLE DESIGN PHYLOSOPHY AS OTHER REAL WORLD GROUPS.
And, the only way to have a hope of making change is to use the proper terms and discuss the concerns.
25+ years ago, I was discussing lack of representation in video games with a Irani high school friend of mine. She said, 'But, you know, you can see yourself (African Americans) on billboards. I cannot see myself on billboards."
I realized she was right. At that time, in the US, media would sometimes feature African Americans to ameliorate concerns about diversity, but it was rare to see Latinos, Asians, Polynesians, Native Americans, Indians, Middle Easterns, etc as primary protagonists in films, on TV, on billboards or in books.
And, I realized that when I wrote Fantasy and Sci-fi stories I most often had white, European/American protagonists. Every once in a while I might have an African/American protagonist. Because that is the tradition and I didn't really think about changing the tradition or what impact that might have on any potential audience.
And that is the moment that I understood that creators have a responsibility to make conscious choices about representation in mass entertainment, the lack of representation and the impact on US society...because otherwise we just perpetuate the status quo from 50+ years ago when racial segregation, degradation, appropriation and stereotyping was the norm.
No one should be feeling any stress from being told, "Hey, your game has no female heroes in it. I'm a female and I don't like being forced to play male heroes in this massively multiplayer game." In 2020/2021 that's pretty much the same for any other "minority". In 2020/2021, game devs should not be feeling any stress from being told they need to include non-European ethnic features among the hero options in character creation and that non-European cultures and characters of color should not be stuck with portrayals as primitive, savage, uncivilized, of low intelligence, bestial and/or evil. In 2020/2021, game devs should be figuring out how to include non-binary and non-cis pronouns - just as they should be contemplating how to positively represent women as well as men. And, if there are romances in the game, there should be a variety of options besides just heterosexual romances (Baldur's Gate 3 also does that fairly well, I think, much to my surprise).
My office just had sexual harassment training a few weeks ago. I feel no stress keeping my hands to myself.
25 years ago, when women informed me that it is degrading for men to call women girls, I adjusted my behavior and stopped referring to women as girls. That did not cause me stress.
15 years ago, when I worked at The Black AIDS Institute, I over heard a trans person referring to trans people as trannies. I picked up that terminology, but was later told that it's offensive for cis people to call trans people trannies. So, I made the adjustment. That did not cause stress.
Equal respect should not cause stress. And should not be hindering job performance.