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A Question for the Developers

SckSck Member
edited December 2020 in General Discussion
DISCLAIMER: I am aware that you guys have stated that you won't be prioritizing Esports, which is why I feel this question is important.

Do you plan on releasing PvP Content intended to harbor a Competitive (Esports) market?

The reason I ask this, is that today, I feel a large part of what makes most games successful is a huge Esports scene following it. League of Legends (Riot Games in general), and Dota 2 are great examples of some of the most successful games to be released this last decade. So with regards to that, I feel that a release of some sort of PvP format that is a capture the flag where other players can watch/spectate on a regional/global level (I.E. watch or participate in a game from not that server) is important to the long term success of the game.

If you do plan on doing such a thing, when would you guys plan on releasing such content? Would this be something that you feel needs to be at the very start of the game? Or would you be waiting a few months until after the release when there are many max level guilds clearing high end raid content to release such a complex format?

Huge fan! Thanks in advance!

Regards,

Saucekay
Regards,

Saucekay
«1

Comments

  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    *dawn of war 3 flashbacks*
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • unknownsystemerrorunknownsystemerror Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
  • Dang I was all excited for a question about coastal pvp when you said "Harbor".
    5000x1000px_Sathrago_Commission_RavenJuu.jpg?ex=661327bf&is=6600b2bf&hm=e6652ad4fec65a6fe03abd2e8111482acb29206799f1a336b09f703d4ff33c8b&
    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu

  • Thank you for the link! I am aware that this is not their main goal, which is why I asked the question the way I did. I feel like it is a question that hasn't been fully answered yet and as such, I felt it pertinent to ask the question.
    Regards,

    Saucekay
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited December 2020
    Someone said in another thread that designing games intentionally for esports is like putting a cart before the horse.
    It doesn't work like you intend it to, even if you manage to hype the game (Valorant)
    It's usually birthed by the community first holding their own tournaments that gather big followings, which eventually gets incorporated into the game's culture, and then you launch your esport shenanigans (LoL, Dota2, Starcraft, Smash Bros)

    It's like that "share" button that they put on the console controllers. Nobody presses them. If they do, it was an accident and you wonder why the button even exists.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    As @maouw said, turning a game into an esport requires 3 things:

    1. An already existing competitive community
    2. An already existing viewer base
    3. The developer willing to pump tons of money into making it an esport

    Even with all those 3 things in place, it's still risky. Riot Games had all 3 things in place and spent a ton of money on both tournaments, the spectator mode, and marketing and they very nearly failed. I remember way back in the day, they tried to put LoL on the MLG Pro Circuit (one of the biggest esports tournaments at the time), and it was such a disaster that it was quickly taken off it, mostly due to how poor the spectator mode was at the time.

    Riot have since managed to turn LoL into the biggest esport in the world but it was such a huge risk for them, and even now they will struggle in certain regions.
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  • Historically, MMOs don't do well with ESports.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Ralms wrote: »
    Historically, MMOs don't do well with ESports.

    Very few types of games do
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • AntVictusAntVictus Member, Alpha One
    Yeah no. MOBA's are not mmo's, it's a completely different type of audience that you're dealing with in that situation. Your best bet is to hope that Apocalypse comes back and doing it from there. Esports doesn't work nor belong in an MMO.
  • @AntVictus @Nagash @Ralms MMO stands for Massive Multiplayer Online. By definition MOBA's are MMOs.
    Regards,

    Saucekay
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Sck wrote: »
    @AntVictus @Nagash @Ralms MMO stands for Massive Multiplayer Online. By definition MOBA's are MMOs.

    Not really, the only thing they have in common is online multiplayer. MOBA's share more with RTS games than any other genre
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited December 2020
    Sck wrote: »
    @AntVictus @Nagash @Ralms MMO stands for Massive Multiplayer Online. By definition MOBA's are MMOs.

    By that logic, pretty much every online game is an mmorpg.

    Have you guys heard of this amazing mmorpg called "Call of Duty"?

    Anyway, back on topic, the problem with esports for mmorpgs is that they mainly focus on the PvE aspects, with competitive PvP getting sidelined. The one exception to this is WoW with its Mythic Dungeon Invitational, which is about the only time I can think of where a PvE format has become an esport. Even that though is very niche and I doubt any other game could replicate it.
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  • AntVictusAntVictus Member, Alpha One
    Nagash wrote: »
    Sck wrote: »
    @AntVictus @Nagash @Ralms MMO stands for Massive Multiplayer Online. By definition MOBA's are MMOs.

    Not really, the only thing they have in common is online multiplayer. MOBA's share more with RTS games than any other genre

    I feel like this guy is the exact same dude, who made that exact same comparison in the discord. Anyway, no MOBA's and MMO's are not the same thing, they never have been and never will be the same thing. Esports doesn't belong in an mmo.
  • sarkadosarkado Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited December 2020
    If AOC is destined for the E-sports league it really falls on the community to make that happen. I wouldn't expect the Dev's to dump resources into a function that has little fan base or fails to add something of value to the current gameplay mechanics.

    It's been mentioned a couple of times, but looking at the WOW competitive scene I find it very boring. Others may like it, but as far as excitement and hype its really kind of lacking compared to other games out there in the E-sports scene.

    MMO's really don't fit the HYPE bill, especially for AOC which isn't trying to make classes balanced in a 1v1 pvp fashion.
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    ^^^ @sarkado has a good point.
    I can totally see Sieges becoming an eSport, but first our community needs to be interested in spectating sieges - and I think that depends on whether a siege is utter chaos or if it has a tactical ebb and flow to victory/defeat.

    However, if this idea becomes part of the game's design - then it messes up a lot of the Roleplaying elements of the MMO - if people are going to practice sieging, we need more metropolises (coz that's where the real sieges will be), siege design would have to aim for ~45 min battle, intermissions, spectator modes.

    I just don't see a way around the conflict of interest between an eSport and the RPG part of MMORPG.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • JamationJamation Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    maouw wrote: »
    ^^^ @sarkado has a good point.
    I can totally see Sieges becoming an eSport, but first our community needs to be interested in spectating sieges - and I think that depends on whether a siege is utter chaos or if it has a tactical ebb and flow to victory/defeat.

    I think spectating sieges was actually brought up in one of the livestreams before and was shut down due to the possibility that the spectators could share information with the people participating in the siege and give them an advantage they otherwise wouldn't have been able to have. And due to the scale they'll be on I don't think it'd be possible to have the participants in a "closed box" scenario either.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Jamation wrote: »
    maouw wrote: »
    ^^^ @sarkado has a good point.
    I can totally see Sieges becoming an eSport, but first our community needs to be interested in spectating sieges - and I think that depends on whether a siege is utter chaos or if it has a tactical ebb and flow to victory/defeat.

    I think spectating sieges was actually brought up in one of the livestreams before and was shut down due to the possibility that the spectators could share information with the people participating in the siege and give them an advantage they otherwise wouldn't have been able to have. And due to the scale they'll be on I don't think it'd be possible to have the participants in a "closed box" scenario either.

    If the sieges take place in an instance separate from the rest of the game world, it would be a simple matter to add in a spectator mode with a delay on it (say 5mins delay) to avoid any kind of advantage the spectators could gain from watching. At the very least I'd like to see a recording function in place for the sieges so that players who missed it could see what happened.
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  • At the very least I'd like to see a recording function in place for the sieges so that players who missed it could see what happened.

    You kidding? I think we have almost as many streamers as we have players. You're not going to lack videos of anything happening anywhere.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
  • JamationJamation Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Jamation wrote: »
    maouw wrote: »
    ^^^ @sarkado has a good point.
    I can totally see Sieges becoming an eSport, but first our community needs to be interested in spectating sieges - and I think that depends on whether a siege is utter chaos or if it has a tactical ebb and flow to victory/defeat.

    I think spectating sieges was actually brought up in one of the livestreams before and was shut down due to the possibility that the spectators could share information with the people participating in the siege and give them an advantage they otherwise wouldn't have been able to have. And due to the scale they'll be on I don't think it'd be possible to have the participants in a "closed box" scenario either.

    If the sieges take place in an instance separate from the rest of the game world, it would be a simple matter to add in a spectator mode with a delay on it (say 5mins delay) to avoid any kind of advantage the spectators could gain from watching. At the very least I'd like to see a recording function in place for the sieges so that players who missed it could see what happened.


    If it was specifically for an esport type of thing I think the instanced mode would work, but for general gameplay I'd hope it wouldn't be instanced for the sake of an esport because that would take part of the open world aspect away for no real purpose.
  • AntVictus wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    Sck wrote: »
    @AntVictus @Nagash @Ralms MMO stands for Massive Multiplayer Online. By definition MOBA's are MMOs.

    Not really, the only thing they have in common is online multiplayer. MOBA's share more with RTS games than any other genre

    I feel like this guy is the exact same dude, who made that exact same comparison in the discord. Anyway, no MOBA's and MMO's are not the same thing, they never have been and never will be the same thing. Esports doesn't belong in an mmo.

    MOBA = Massive Online Battle Arena
    MMO = Massive Multiplayer Online

    World of Warcraft has had a competitive scene for nearly 15 years. To say that there isn't a potential for Esports in any genre, especially a MMO, I feel is short sighted. I do appreciate your thoughts, however, I don't agree. I'm just interested because I like to play games at the highest level and I truly love watching esports content. Moreover, I feel like the game has an incredible amount of potential for esports with how the system is currently being built. I will be playing this game w/ or w/o an esports scene, but it doesn't mean that there couldn't be. Regardless I was asking the devs specifically because I feel they are truly the only ones qualified to give the answer you're giving.

    Regards,

    Saucekay
  • SckSck Member
    edited December 2020
    Sck wrote: »
    @AntVictus @Nagash @Ralms MMO stands for Massive Multiplayer Online. By definition MOBA's are MMOs.

    By that logic, pretty much every online game is an mmorpg.

    Have you guys heard of this amazing mmorpg called "Call of Duty"?

    Anyway, back on topic, the problem with esports for mmorpgs is that they mainly focus on the PvE aspects, with competitive PvP getting sidelined. The one exception to this is WoW with its Mythic Dungeon Invitational, which is about the only time I can think of where a PvE format has become an esport. Even that though is very niche and I doubt any other game could replicate it.

    MMO = Massive Multiplayer Online
    MMO != MMORPG
    MMORPG == MMO
    MOBA = Massive Online Battle Arena
    MMO != MOBA
    MOBA == MMO

    Call of Duty is an MMO. I would argue nearly every online game is an MMO. Please don't confuse MMORPGs w/ MMOs.
    Regards,

    Saucekay
  • bloodprophetbloodprophet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    5 players is hardly massive

    Isn't the only thing wow shows as esports arenas?
    Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
  • 5 players is hardly massive

    Isn't the only thing wow shows as esports arenas?

    They also have the Dungeon Invitational. Which is honestly kinda blehh to watch :/
    I do enjoy the arenas though, although I have been less interested with the modern Arena. It has the same issue I have when watching the Dungeon Invitational. There are just too many particles moving around to really get a visual understanding of what is happening.
    Regards,

    Saucekay
  • AntVictusAntVictus Member, Alpha One
    Sck wrote: »
    AntVictus wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    Sck wrote: »
    @AntVictus @Nagash @Ralms MMO stands for Massive Multiplayer Online. By definition MOBA's are MMOs.

    Not really, the only thing they have in common is online multiplayer. MOBA's share more with RTS games than any other genre

    I feel like this guy is the exact same dude, who made that exact same comparison in the discord. Anyway, no MOBA's and MMO's are not the same thing, they never have been and never will be the same thing. Esports doesn't belong in an mmo.

    MOBA = Massive Online Battle Arena
    MMO = Massive Multiplayer Online

    World of Warcraft has had a competitive scene for nearly 15 years. To say that there isn't a potential for Esports in any genre, especially a MMO, I feel is short sighted. I do appreciate your thoughts, however, I don't agree. I'm just interested because I like to play games at the highest level and I truly love watching esports content. Moreover, I feel like the game has an incredible amount of potential for esports with how the system is currently being built. I will be playing this game w/ or w/o an esports scene, but it doesn't mean that there couldn't be. Regardless I was asking the devs specifically because I feel they are truly the only ones qualified to give the answer you're giving.

    MOBA= MULTIPLAYER ONLINE BATTLE ARENA.
    You're 100% wrong on what moba means, you can even google it. PVE content like raids can be competitive sure, but it's NOT ESPORTS worthy. No one cares if you wanted the devs to respond or talk about it as they've already talked about it before. What you feel or want is completely irrelevant.

    Esports does not belong in an MMO.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    The point of an MMORPG is for individual players to be a part of a larger world.

    I don't see how an esport could be made from that.

    I can see how the assets can be reused with a totally different ruleset to make an esport, but that is a totally different thing.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    The point of an MMORPG is for individual players to be a part of a larger world.

    I don't see how an esport could be made from that.

    I can see how the assets can be reused with a totally different ruleset to make an esport, but that is a totally different thing.

    Well ashes of creation is a team-based game so balancing around 8 man groups could be an option. Allowing for 8v8 arena matches could potentially create an e-sport scene. The issue is creating competitive and fun combat that is entertaining to watch, if you can cover those the e-sports part basically creates itself via the players.
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    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • TarkusBlackTarkusBlack Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited January 2021
    I for one hope they completely disregard esports. In every single way.

    No ill will to people that like esports etc, just dont think it fits. It would actually turn some people away too.

    "This game wont be for everyone and that is ok." - Steven Shariff

    Who knows what will happen but at this point I'm here for their vision and to help them within the confines of that vision, not to expand that vision to certain outside peoples tastes.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Sck wrote: »
    Sck wrote: »
    @AntVictus @Nagash @Ralms MMO stands for Massive Multiplayer Online. By definition MOBA's are MMOs.

    By that logic, pretty much every online game is an mmorpg.

    Have you guys heard of this amazing mmorpg called "Call of Duty"?

    Anyway, back on topic, the problem with esports for mmorpgs is that they mainly focus on the PvE aspects, with competitive PvP getting sidelined. The one exception to this is WoW with its Mythic Dungeon Invitational, which is about the only time I can think of where a PvE format has become an esport. Even that though is very niche and I doubt any other game could replicate it.

    MMO = Massive Multiplayer Online
    MMO != MMORPG
    MMORPG == MMO
    MOBA = Massive Online Battle Arena
    MMO != MOBA
    MOBA == MMO

    Call of Duty is an MMO. I would argue nearly every online game is an MMO. Please don't confuse MMORPGs w/ MMOs.

    So, surely with that logic, the only difference between an mmo and an mmorpg is the rpg part right? Well, CoD has plenty of rpg elements in it. After all, the core elements on an rpg are you have a character that levels up and gets stronger, unlocking new abilities as it goes. That's exactly what happens with your CoD character, meaning by your definition, CoD is an mmorpg.
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  • JakemanJakeman Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    lets hope the devs NEVER listen to any ideas you have. LOL saying call of duty is a mmo
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Sck wrote: »
    I feel a large part of what makes most games successful is a huge Esports scene following it.

    This is your problem right here. Ignore anything else in this thread, because it’s based off of this crazy suggestion. And this is rubber walls crazy. You’re saying that “most games” are successful because of a huge Esports scene? Are you from a parallel dimension, or did you first hear about video games a week ago and you’re trying to figure out what they are?

    No, there are a teeny tiny number of games (generally MOBA games) that have capitalized on Esports to improve their success. But not even those games aren’t successful because of Esports; they already had an appeal to players and that success led to being able to establish competitive play that drew an audience.

    But the vast, vast, VAST majority of successful games (the most successful games overall) have gameplay incompatible with Esports and have nothing to do with the concept.

    It’s generally a bad idea to create a game and rely on Esports as a business model. You can make a game with the idea that you might be able to cater to competitive play for spectators, but if you are counting on that to succeed you should probably focus your attention first on making it a good game.
     
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