A Question for the Developers

DISCLAIMER: I am aware that you guys have stated that you won't be prioritizing Esports, which is why I feel this question is important.

Do you plan on releasing PvP Content intended to harbor a Competitive (Esports) market?

The reason I ask this, is that today, I feel a large part of what makes most games successful is a huge Esports scene following it. League of Legends (Riot Games in general), and Dota 2 are great examples of some of the most successful games to be released this last decade. So with regards to that, I feel that a release of some sort of PvP format that is a capture the flag where other players can watch/spectate on a regional/global level (I.E. watch or participate in a game from not that server) is important to the long term success of the game.

If you do plan on doing such a thing, when would you guys plan on releasing such content? Would this be something that you feel needs to be at the very start of the game? Or would you be waiting a few months until after the release when there are many max level guilds clearing high end raid content to release such a complex format?

Huge fan! Thanks in advance!

Regards,

Saucekay

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Nagash

*dawn of war 3 flashbacks*

unknownsystemerror

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Template:Esports

Sathrago

Dang I was all excited for a question about coastal pvp when you said "Harbor".

Sck

unknownsystemerror wrote: »

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Template:Esports

Thank you for the link! I am aware that this is not their main goal, which is why I asked the question the way I did. I feel like it is a question that hasn't been fully answered yet and as such, I felt it pertinent to ask the question.

maouw

Someone said in another thread that designing games intentionally for esports is like putting a cart before the horse.
It doesn't work like you intend it to, even if you manage to hype the game (Valorant)
It's usually birthed by the community first holding their own tournaments that gather big followings, which eventually gets incorporated into the game's culture, and then you launch your esport shenanigans (LoL, Dota2, Starcraft, Smash Bros)

It's like that "share" button that they put on the console controllers. Nobody presses them. If they do, it was an accident and you wonder why the button even exists.

Wandering Mist

As @maouw said, turning a game into an esport requires 3 things:

1. An already existing competitive community
2. An already existing viewer base
3. The developer willing to pump tons of money into making it an esport

Even with all those 3 things in place, it's still risky. Riot Games had all 3 things in place and spent a ton of money on both tournaments, the spectator mode, and marketing and they very nearly failed. I remember way back in the day, they tried to put LoL on the MLG Pro Circuit (one of the biggest esports tournaments at the time), and it was such a disaster that it was quickly taken off it, mostly due to how poor the spectator mode was at the time.

Riot have since managed to turn LoL into the biggest esport in the world but it was such a huge risk for them, and even now they will struggle in certain regions.

Ralms

Historically, MMOs don't do well with ESports.

Nagash

Ralms wrote: »

Historically, MMOs don't do well with ESports.

Very few types of games do

AntVictus

Yeah no. MOBA's are not mmo's, it's a completely different type of audience that you're dealing with in that situation. Your best bet is to hope that Apocalypse comes back and doing it from there. Esports doesn't work nor belong in an MMO.

Sck

@AntVictus @Nagash @Ralms MMO stands for Massive Multiplayer Online. By definition MOBA's are MMOs.

Nagash

Sck wrote: »

@AntVictus @Nagash @Ralms MMO stands for Massive Multiplayer Online. By definition MOBA's are MMOs.

Not really, the only thing they have in common is online multiplayer. MOBA's share more with RTS games than any other genre

Wandering Mist

Sck wrote: »

@AntVictus @Nagash @Ralms MMO stands for Massive Multiplayer Online. By definition MOBA's are MMOs.

By that logic, pretty much every online game is an mmorpg.

Have you guys heard of this amazing mmorpg called "Call of Duty"?

Anyway, back on topic, the problem with esports for mmorpgs is that they mainly focus on the PvE aspects, with competitive PvP getting sidelined. The one exception to this is WoW with its Mythic Dungeon Invitational, which is about the only time I can think of where a PvE format has become an esport. Even that though is very niche and I doubt any other game could replicate it.

AntVictus

Nagash wrote: »

Sck wrote: »

@AntVictus @Nagash @Ralms MMO stands for Massive Multiplayer Online. By definition MOBA's are MMOs.

Not really, the only thing they have in common is online multiplayer. MOBA's share more with RTS games than any other genre

I feel like this guy is the exact same dude, who made that exact same comparison in the discord. Anyway, no MOBA's and MMO's are not the same thing, they never have been and never will be the same thing. Esports doesn't belong in an mmo.

sarkado

If AOC is destined for the E-sports league it really falls on the community to make that happen. I wouldn't expect the Dev's to dump resources into a function that has little fan base or fails to add something of value to the current gameplay mechanics.

It's been mentioned a couple of times, but looking at the WOW competitive scene I find it very boring. Others may like it, but as far as excitement and hype its really kind of lacking compared to other games out there in the E-sports scene.

MMO's really don't fit the HYPE bill, especially for AOC which isn't trying to make classes balanced in a 1v1 pvp fashion.

maouw

^^^ @sarkado has a good point.
I can totally see Sieges becoming an eSport, but first our community needs to be interested in spectating sieges - and I think that depends on whether a siege is utter chaos or if it has a tactical ebb and flow to victory/defeat.

However, if this idea becomes part of the game's design - then it messes up a lot of the Roleplaying elements of the MMO - if people are going to practice sieging, we need more metropolises (coz that's where the real sieges will be), siege design would have to aim for ~45 min battle, intermissions, spectator modes.

I just don't see a way around the conflict of interest between an eSport and the RPG part of MMORPG.

Jamation

maouw wrote: »

^^^ @sarkado has a good point.
I can totally see Sieges becoming an eSport, but first our community needs to be interested in spectating sieges - and I think that depends on whether a siege is utter chaos or if it has a tactical ebb and flow to victory/defeat.

I think spectating sieges was actually brought up in one of the livestreams before and was shut down due to the possibility that the spectators could share information with the people participating in the siege and give them an advantage they otherwise wouldn't have been able to have. And due to the scale they'll be on I don't think it'd be possible to have the participants in a "closed box" scenario either.

Wandering Mist

Jamation wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

^^^ @sarkado has a good point.
I can totally see Sieges becoming an eSport, but first our community needs to be interested in spectating sieges - and I think that depends on whether a siege is utter chaos or if it has a tactical ebb and flow to victory/defeat.

I think spectating sieges was actually brought up in one of the livestreams before and was shut down due to the possibility that the spectators could share information with the people participating in the siege and give them an advantage they otherwise wouldn't have been able to have. And due to the scale they'll be on I don't think it'd be possible to have the participants in a "closed box" scenario either.

If the sieges take place in an instance separate from the rest of the game world, it would be a simple matter to add in a spectator mode with a delay on it (say 5mins delay) to avoid any kind of advantage the spectators could gain from watching. At the very least I'd like to see a recording function in place for the sieges so that players who missed it could see what happened.

daveywavey

Wandering Mist wrote: »

At the very least I'd like to see a recording function in place for the sieges so that players who missed it could see what happened.

You kidding? I think we have almost as many streamers as we have players. You're not going to lack videos of anything happening anywhere.

Jamation

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Jamation wrote: »

maouw wrote: »

^^^ @sarkado has a good point.
I can totally see Sieges becoming an eSport, but first our community needs to be interested in spectating sieges - and I think that depends on whether a siege is utter chaos or if it has a tactical ebb and flow to victory/defeat.

I think spectating sieges was actually brought up in one of the livestreams before and was shut down due to the possibility that the spectators could share information with the people participating in the siege and give them an advantage they otherwise wouldn't have been able to have. And due to the scale they'll be on I don't think it'd be possible to have the participants in a "closed box" scenario either.

If the sieges take place in an instance separate from the rest of the game world, it would be a simple matter to add in a spectator mode with a delay on it (say 5mins delay) to avoid any kind of advantage the spectators could gain from watching. At the very least I'd like to see a recording function in place for the sieges so that players who missed it could see what happened.

If it was specifically for an esport type of thing I think the instanced mode would work, but for general gameplay I'd hope it wouldn't be instanced for the sake of an esport because that would take part of the open world aspect away for no real purpose.

Sck

AntVictus wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

Sck wrote: »

@AntVictus @Nagash @Ralms MMO stands for Massive Multiplayer Online. By definition MOBA's are MMOs.

Not really, the only thing they have in common is online multiplayer. MOBA's share more with RTS games than any other genre

I feel like this guy is the exact same dude, who made that exact same comparison in the discord. Anyway, no MOBA's and MMO's are not the same thing, they never have been and never will be the same thing. Esports doesn't belong in an mmo.

MOBA = Massive Online Battle Arena
MMO = Massive Multiplayer Online

World of Warcraft has had a competitive scene for nearly 15 years. To say that there isn't a potential for Esports in any genre, especially a MMO, I feel is short sighted. I do appreciate your thoughts, however, I don't agree. I'm just interested because I like to play games at the highest level and I truly love watching esports content. Moreover, I feel like the game has an incredible amount of potential for esports with how the system is currently being built. I will be playing this game w/ or w/o an esports scene, but it doesn't mean that there couldn't be. Regardless I was asking the devs specifically because I feel they are truly the only ones qualified to give the answer you're giving.

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