A Question for the Developers

DISCLAIMER: I am aware that you guys have stated that you won't be prioritizing Esports, which is why I feel this question is important.

Do you plan on releasing PvP Content intended to harbor a Competitive (Esports) market?

The reason I ask this, is that today, I feel a large part of what makes most games successful is a huge Esports scene following it. League of Legends (Riot Games in general), and Dota 2 are great examples of some of the most successful games to be released this last decade. So with regards to that, I feel that a release of some sort of PvP format that is a capture the flag where other players can watch/spectate on a regional/global level (I.E. watch or participate in a game from not that server) is important to the long term success of the game.

If you do plan on doing such a thing, when would you guys plan on releasing such content? Would this be something that you feel needs to be at the very start of the game? Or would you be waiting a few months until after the release when there are many max level guilds clearing high end raid content to release such a complex format?

Huge fan! Thanks in advance!

Regards,

Saucekay

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Sck

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Sck wrote: »

@AntVictus @Nagash @Ralms MMO stands for Massive Multiplayer Online. By definition MOBA's are MMOs.

By that logic, pretty much every online game is an mmorpg.

Have you guys heard of this amazing mmorpg called "Call of Duty"?

Anyway, back on topic, the problem with esports for mmorpgs is that they mainly focus on the PvE aspects, with competitive PvP getting sidelined. The one exception to this is WoW with its Mythic Dungeon Invitational, which is about the only time I can think of where a PvE format has become an esport. Even that though is very niche and I doubt any other game could replicate it.

MMO = Massive Multiplayer Online
MMO != MMORPG
MMORPG == MMO
MOBA = Massive Online Battle Arena
MMO != MOBA
MOBA == MMO

Call of Duty is an MMO. I would argue nearly every online game is an MMO. Please don't confuse MMORPGs w/ MMOs.

bloodprophet

5 players is hardly massive

Isn't the only thing wow shows as esports arenas?

Sck

bloodprophet wrote: »

5 players is hardly massive

Isn't the only thing wow shows as esports arenas?

They also have the Dungeon Invitational. Which is honestly kinda blehh to watch

I do enjoy the arenas though, although I have been less interested with the modern Arena. It has the same issue I have when watching the Dungeon Invitational. There are just too many particles moving around to really get a visual understanding of what is happening.

AntVictus

Sck wrote: »

AntVictus wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

Sck wrote: »

@AntVictus @Nagash @Ralms MMO stands for Massive Multiplayer Online. By definition MOBA's are MMOs.

Not really, the only thing they have in common is online multiplayer. MOBA's share more with RTS games than any other genre

I feel like this guy is the exact same dude, who made that exact same comparison in the discord. Anyway, no MOBA's and MMO's are not the same thing, they never have been and never will be the same thing. Esports doesn't belong in an mmo.

MOBA = Massive Online Battle Arena
MMO = Massive Multiplayer Online

World of Warcraft has had a competitive scene for nearly 15 years. To say that there isn't a potential for Esports in any genre, especially a MMO, I feel is short sighted. I do appreciate your thoughts, however, I don't agree. I'm just interested because I like to play games at the highest level and I truly love watching esports content. Moreover, I feel like the game has an incredible amount of potential for esports with how the system is currently being built. I will be playing this game w/ or w/o an esports scene, but it doesn't mean that there couldn't be. Regardless I was asking the devs specifically because I feel they are truly the only ones qualified to give the answer you're giving.

MOBA= MULTIPLAYER ONLINE BATTLE ARENA.
You're 100% wrong on what moba means, you can even google it. PVE content like raids can be competitive sure, but it's NOT ESPORTS worthy. No one cares if you wanted the devs to respond or talk about it as they've already talked about it before. What you feel or want is completely irrelevant.

Esports does not belong in an MMO.

Noaani

The point of an MMORPG is for individual players to be a part of a larger world.

I don't see how an esport could be made from that.

I can see how the assets can be reused with a totally different ruleset to make an esport, but that is a totally different thing.

Sathrago

Noaani wrote: »

The point of an MMORPG is for individual players to be a part of a larger world.

I don't see how an esport could be made from that.

I can see how the assets can be reused with a totally different ruleset to make an esport, but that is a totally different thing.

Well ashes of creation is a team-based game so balancing around 8 man groups could be an option. Allowing for 8v8 arena matches could potentially create an e-sport scene. The issue is creating competitive and fun combat that is entertaining to watch, if you can cover those the e-sports part basically creates itself via the players.

TarkusBlack

I for one hope they completely disregard esports. In every single way.

No ill will to people that like esports etc, just dont think it fits. It would actually turn some people away too.

"This game wont be for everyone and that is ok." - Steven Shariff

Who knows what will happen but at this point I'm here for their vision and to help them within the confines of that vision, not to expand that vision to certain outside peoples tastes.

Wandering Mist

Sck wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Sck wrote: »

@AntVictus @Nagash @Ralms MMO stands for Massive Multiplayer Online. By definition MOBA's are MMOs.

By that logic, pretty much every online game is an mmorpg.

Have you guys heard of this amazing mmorpg called "Call of Duty"?

Anyway, back on topic, the problem with esports for mmorpgs is that they mainly focus on the PvE aspects, with competitive PvP getting sidelined. The one exception to this is WoW with its Mythic Dungeon Invitational, which is about the only time I can think of where a PvE format has become an esport. Even that though is very niche and I doubt any other game could replicate it.

MMO = Massive Multiplayer Online
MMO != MMORPG
MMORPG == MMO
MOBA = Massive Online Battle Arena
MMO != MOBA
MOBA == MMO

Call of Duty is an MMO. I would argue nearly every online game is an MMO. Please don't confuse MMORPGs w/ MMOs.

So, surely with that logic, the only difference between an mmo and an mmorpg is the rpg part right? Well, CoD has plenty of rpg elements in it. After all, the core elements on an rpg are you have a character that levels up and gets stronger, unlocking new abilities as it goes. That's exactly what happens with your CoD character, meaning by your definition, CoD is an mmorpg.

Jakeman

lets hope the devs NEVER listen to any ideas you have. LOL saying call of duty is a mmo

Atama

Sck wrote: »

I feel a large part of what makes most games successful is a huge Esports scene following it.

This is your problem right here. Ignore anything else in this thread, because it’s based off of this crazy suggestion. And this is rubber walls crazy. You’re saying that “most games” are successful because of a huge Esports scene? Are you from a parallel dimension, or did you first hear about video games a week ago and you’re trying to figure out what they are?

No, there are a teeny tiny number of games (generally MOBA games) that have capitalized on Esports to improve their success. But not even those games aren’t successful because of Esports; they already had an appeal to players and that success led to being able to establish competitive play that drew an audience.

But the vast, vast, VAST majority of successful games (the most successful games overall) have gameplay incompatible with Esports and have nothing to do with the concept.

It’s generally a bad idea to create a game and rely on Esports as a business model. You can make a game with the idea that you might be able to cater to competitive play for spectators, but if you are counting on that to succeed you should probably focus your attention first on making it a good game.

Lasaathnann

Ralms wrote: »

Historically, MMOs don't do well with ESports.

This. If eSports for the game works out, great....but MMOs tend to be boring (to a large extent) to watch people play competitively.

Marcet

Nah, that is starting the house on the roof, and it's never good.
You can't create a community forged by fire that lasts for many years by shoving boring Esports in their faces, it has to be created by them.

Morek

Honestly, my opinion is that eSports ruins games.

The whole culture around eSports actually makes me feel dirty and depressed. When I teleport from reality into a magical world of danger and adventure, the last thing I want is that reality to follow me.

Keep AoC eSports free!

ariatras

Hmmmm.

MMO's are not designed to be e-sports. The WoW e-sport scene is an even smaller niche than the RP community.

On top of that it doesn't work. Back when Arena's first appeared (which is arguably the most popular e-sport from WoW) people were summarily against it. We had just come from a world where PvP was part of the world itself. Especially so on a PvP server. Even the battlegrounds. Whilst it is true, they were instanced. Warsong Gulch, for example had you travel to the physical entrance, when it was first presented. You got a quest. You had to read it, to know where to go. A skirmish had been going on, and your faction needed the resources. Giving some degree of meaning to it.

Same with Alterac Valley, and Arathi Basin. They were part of the world just like raids and dungeons.

Now the advantage of that is. Other then it is better (although not perfect) for immersion. Classes could be balanced a lot more globally. You are a simple recruit, tasked to join a handful of other recruits and win the Skirmish. So, warriors were not great at PvP at the time, though they had tools like reflect, hamstring. The logical thing to do leave him, and go for his support. But, you're all a bunch of recruits, and technically untrained. So when a warrior is in your face as a ranged dps, it is hard to ignore. They worked. Warlocks were overal strong but were quite weak against melee (once they got close)

But when Arena came, it had three formats.
2v2
3v3
5v5
This is where they balanced the entire PvP system around. It was during the era of PvP montages and videos.

People say there were specs that simply didn't work. Often using shadow priest as an example. Shadow Priests were monsters in PvP, absolute beasts. They were in PvE too, but only if the fight doesn't last long, because their spells were very mana intensive. The point is, it was balanced differently. From TBC on, most specs worked for everything. A design choice that carries on to this day.

And, is the game better for it? I'd say no. There's a checkbox system at work. It looks a little like this.

<Class> <spec>
Escape? Check
Crown-control? Check
Some form of self-sustain? Check
Area of Effect? Check

It makes classes homogenous. And even with that approach, classes are never balanced. If you get caught in a 1 v 1 in the world right now, class doesn't really matter, they all have roughly the same toolkit.

Personally, I'd prefer a more rock paper scissors approach, it makes it easier to make classes feel unique, and you're a lot more likely to venture out with others, not even friends per say. Oh, you're a healer? Yea, you'll probably have a bad time questing solo. But guess what, these daggers aren't going to do much damage to that big, animated, aggressive rock. Perhaps we should team up.

And that is where the genius of older mmos comes in. You had to rest every so often, encouraging exchange of ideas, plans, or just simple bants. The same happened in PvP, especially battlegrounds. You had just won the fight to take the Lumber Mill. You have to sit, to drink/eat. Recover your stength. Now people just instantly ride off again. Because they can. Otherwise watching it is boring. the high octane gameplay just doesn't fit.

Whilst I understand the want to get on with it, and go from pack to pack or mob to mob. The little breaks in-between are very important, especially in dungeons. But that doesn't work in e-sports.

But yea, anyway, that's why I think they have no place in mmos

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