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Combat System

Hello dear Intrepid Studios,

I've been following the development for quite a while and I'm really hyped to play your game.

Here is a little thought from me.
The combat system is the key to success, why? Because most of the time you're busy fighting (for my part, at least ^^).
So, the fight has to feel rewarding, crisp and sharp you have to cite, manage your resources etc...
And every class has to have its strengths and weaknesses very important, so that you really have the feeling of uniqueness and usefulness.

For me there is only one game in the MMORPG genre that has made it right to the point and that is World of Warcraft (Classic; TBC; WOTLK)! I've tried many MMOs that also had a very good combat system but never got close to WoW.

That's just my opinion, everyone can have different preferences... :)

To a happy and exciting new year (without covid?!)^^
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Comments

  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    WoW is definitely the gold standard when it comes to smoothness and responsiveness in combat....

    ......HOWEVER!

    One aspect that a lot of mmorpgs neglect is in the enemies you get to fight. Yes, it feels really nice pressing the buttons in WoW, but nearly all the mobs you fight are just walking target dummies that do literally nothing to you. Combat is a 2-way interaction, so if the mobs you are fighting don't do anything, you're only getting half the combat experience.
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  • ariatrasariatras Member, Founder
    WoW's controls, and smoothness ruined many an MMO for me. The most painful of which was The Old Republic. Sadly, the is the only good thing about WoW's combat system.
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  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited December 2020
    Tera Online (first years)
  • Ashes Of Creation won't be World Of Borecraft. And, that's a good thing. Let it be its own game.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
  • @Wandering Mist

    I totaly 100% agree with you!

    The enemies need interesting skills such as: hooks; dashes and so on and so forth.

    So we can master our classes even more against all these evil creatures around Verra.

    I looking forward to the game, i really, really wish "Ashes of Creation" nails it! So far it "looks" phenomenal.

    We need again new/old wind in the mmo genre...


    @daveywavey

    Where did i write it has to be WoW?!
    I just gave an example. Me to, i don't want a WoW clone!
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member
    edited December 2020
    Jinthul wrote: »
    Where did i write it has to be WoW?!
    I just gave an example. Me to, i don't want a WoW clone!

    Cos you WoB fanboys are all the same! :D Every other flipping thread on here is some WoB fanboy wanting to make this game more like WoB, and it's got so boring that I've taken to calling it World Of Borecraft, now. Whenever I see a thread that doesn't reference WoB, I breathe a sigh of relief! :D:D:D

    Without the WoB reference, your post is essentially: "Combat is important in an MMO". And, Intrepid's team of experienced MMO staff know this already...
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Every class having its own strengths and weaknesses is a very tall order. It's not going to be like WOW, specifically TBC and Wrath. Where there are 30+ specs that are all different enough to stand out in play style. With AOC it's 8 variations on 8 playstyles at most. Also be sure to consider that if you include your characters "rotation" a part of their play style. AOC is trying not to have rotations. This is to promote more customization and reactionary game play.

    All that being said I hope to see fluid and engaging combat at a minimum.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • @Vhaeyne

    It's not an easy task, man, i know.
    We have to see, to what extent will the skills actually change, depending on which secondary class we have chosen.
    I like that idea of no rotations, so you have to think more witch skill you have to use in the right situation.

    So true
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I didn't grow up on WoW, so I have a different opinion on WoW's combat.
    I think it was good for its time, and a myriad of next generation MMOs clearly drew inspiration from that system. But I do think WoWs combat system is looking aged today - and similar clones comes off as mediocre (Wildstar, Tera, etc.).

    After playing games like the God of War series, Monster Hunter series, BDO - there are definitely less skills at your disposal, but combat itself has a viscerality that I don't get from the combat in WoW. (I would compare it to the step up from turn based combat, but that's an unfair comparison - maybe a quarter of that gap?)

    I should note that I'm younger than most on the forums, so my experience is greener - so take from that what you will.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • maouw wrote: »
    I didn't grow up on WoW, so I have a different opinion on WoW's combat.
    I think it was good for its time, and a myriad of next generation MMOs clearly drew inspiration from that system. But I do think WoWs combat system is looking aged today - and similar clones comes off as mediocre (Wildstar, Tera, etc.).

    After playing games like the God of War series, Monster Hunter series, BDO - there are definitely less skills at your disposal, but combat itself has a viscerality that I don't get from the combat in WoW. (I would compare it to the step up from turn based combat, but that's an unfair comparison - maybe a quarter of that gap?)

    I should note that I'm younger than most on the forums, so my experience is greener - so take from that what you will.

    I agree with you. I personally enjoy action combat systems the most. BDO does that quite good. But i havent played that in a long time. As of right know i play mostly gw2 with the more action combat focused camera movement without the auto locking.

    Also i feel like action combat requires more skill and the active participation makes ist more immersive and fun.
  • MushinMushin Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited December 2020
    Make it 100% skill based and go in the way of monster hunter or dauntless. I really don't see the mmorpg genre going anywhere combat wise unless it moves into a fast paced action oriented gameplay, where the enemies actually do something and not just stand there. I know they are working on combat. It's just my opinion but I hope they really try to innovation and make something new instead of just going old school. Right now it just looks like an Elder Scrolls Online.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    mushin wrote: »
    Make it 100% skill based and go in the way of monster hunter or dauntless. I really don't see the mmorpg genre going anywhere combat wise unless it moves into a fast paced action oriented gameplay, where the enemies actually do something and not just stand there. I know they are working on combat. It's just my opinion but I hope they really try to innovation and make something new instead of just going old school. Right now it just looks like an Elder Scrolls Online.

    One thing to keep in mind is that combat like you see in Monster Hunter World only really works with small groups of players, whereas an mmorpg needs to be able to field dozens or even hundreds of players at the same time. Imagine if you had 40 characters on screen all doing Monster Hunter style combat moves, it would be a complete mess and borderline unplayable.
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  • HakaijuHakaiju Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited December 2020
    One thing to keep in mind is that combat like you see in Monster Hunter World only really works with small groups of players, whereas an mmorpg needs to be able to field dozens or even hundreds of players at the same time. Imagine if you had 40 characters on screen all doing Monster Hunter style combat moves, it would be a complete mess and borderline unplayable.

    Yeah, BDO is also only fun if you farm mobs as a singleplayer / a small group. The devs actually wanted to add some raids to BDO, but they couldnt because it just wouldnt fit with the combat system (as one can see with the messed up world bosses). My preference would be GW2 with some modern improvements.
  • To much action combat and it becomes extremly spammy and just a big mess.
    In the end, the most succesful mmorpgs have been tab target, or tab target with some action skills.
    MH, Dauntless etc is a completly different genre and shouldnt be an inspire combat for an mmorpg.
    Those games also are 2 of the most spammy games there are.
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  • MushinMushin Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Honestly I wouldn't mind complete chaos in raids, it just means that it stimulates a real battle. Tanks take control of mob movement and defense while melee dps go in and out of attack range. Range dps and healers in the back. What we have right now in every mmo is a bunch of individuals running around avoiding the red dots on the ground with one or two people tanking.
  • mushin wrote: »
    Honestly I wouldn't mind complete chaos in raids, it just means that it stimulates a real battle.
    I'm just the opposite. I don't play FPS or twitch games. My coordination isn't the best so I get lost in the confusion. I like that IS is trying to come up with a hybrid combat system that can be tuned to your play style. Tab target and a few AOE is how I'll roll.
  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @Wandering Mist
    With overabundant fx - they've said fx gets turned down when there are too many players on screen, right? Doesn't FFXIV have a lot going on in combat? How do they handle it?

    @Selo I don't think it's fair to call MH "spammy" (like here) even when people are cheesing like this.

    We've only seen "40-man" action combat bosses ignorant of zerging (BDO, L2), right? and MH bosses are intentionally designed to be solo-able by high-end players - which is why you get cheese.
    If LoL's ARAM Hexakill (6v6) combat can be a coherent battle in a narrow space, surely it's achievable at a larger scale beyond ARAM's single lane of combat?
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    maouw wrote: »
    Doesn't FFXIV have a lot going on in combat? How do they handle it?

    Short answer: They really don't handle it.

    Long answer:
    The raids are 8 man content. This is where they actually cut loose, and have a lot of epic fast paced stuff going on.
    They have 24man raids too, but they are easier than raid finder in WOW. People only do these once a week for the free loot it gives causals.
    Lastly they have large scale PvP which can be a laggy mess with 24v24v24. A total of 72 players on the battlefield. It's not fun, and no one likes it, but they keep making new maps.

    I think most PCs handle it with raw brute force compute power. Console players are generally easy to spot because they take too long to load into the game, their movement is awful, and they claim that lag kills them more.

    There might be something going on with the game being optimized originally to run on the PS3, but I don't think it ever ran well on the PS3.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • MushinMushin Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    https://youtu.be/nuIDYE6hxzY

    Project BBQ new trailer, combat and animations look amazing
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    mushin wrote: »
    Project BBQ new trailer, combat and animations look amazing

    Gross, another anime game with lack luster combat and over the top animations.
    Looks like a shitty 3D guilty gear. Getting by on character designs, and sparkles over substance.
    I hope Intrepid stays away from this crap. It's already bad enough the mages have Harlem Globetrotter ass moves.

    Can we please have one MMO where the players feel more like denizens of a fantasy world, and less like shonen anime protagonists.

    Sorry mate, but I can't stand this stuff.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Moderator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited December 2020
    mushin wrote: »
    https://youtu.be/nuIDYE6hxzY

    Project BBQ new trailer, combat and animations look amazing

    Is that multiplayer or just fighting with AI companions? Either way, as I said before, there are things you can do with singleplayer that you simply cannot with a large group of players. 2 of the most common techniques for making combat more impactful are:

    1. Slowing the game down at the point of impact
    This is a very common trick. Basically when an attack hits, you slow the entire game down for a few frames to give players more time to appreciate the animations without the combat feeling like it stutters. Games like Devil May Cry 5 and Bayonetta 2 utilise this technique all the time.

    2. Linked animations
    A linked animation is where 2 characters essentially stop what they are doing and perform a synchronised animation. You see this a lot in games like Dark Souls and Assassin's Creed where you have parry/riposte techniques. Once you press the correct button at the correct time, both you and your opponent will "jump" into position and perform the linked animation.

    Both these techniques help improve the combat but only work in singleplayer scenarios. Imagine if you were just about to strike an enemy and that enemy suddenly moves to do a linked animation with another player? It would be a complete pain in the ass.
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  • Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Console players are generally easy to spot because they take too long to load into the game, their movement is awful, and they claim that lag kills them more.

    "PC Master Race, bitch!"

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0Mjz6j_CUzA
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/
  • Please don't make the combat like a hack and slash, or like monster hunter. I love those kind of games but not that combat into an MMO, for me it brakes it, I prefer tab target combat and more slow paced.

    I play lots of action combat PvP and PvE games, but I don't want that in a mmorpg. This is not God of War or Diablo. Action combat is for other things, not an mmorpg. The right touch of action?? okay that's cool, but in my personal opinion, leave it simple.
  • HakaijuHakaiju Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Marcet wrote: »
    Please don't make the combat like a hack and slash, or like monster hunter. I love those kind of games but not that combat into an MMO, for me it brakes it, I prefer tab target combat and more slow paced.

    And for me tab target is a no go. So lets stay with the hybrid system
  • Exactly, for an mmo the fighting system should be simple but hard to master, it should feel rewarding when you try to master your class and at the same time punish if you only do button smashing. Opponent skills and environment should be included in the fight. Theorycrafting, different class combos, thus creating a nice harmony of the different aspects.

    For example, if you look at the gaming industry in general, some companies these days often advertise with old-school standards for example, Pillars of Eternity; Baldurs Gate 3 or old games that have been remastered etc..., the old one has just proven itself to this day, that doesn't mean something completely new has to be bad!
    A little new wind is good too.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    daveywavey wrote: »
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Console players are generally easy to spot because they take too long to load into the game, their movement is awful, and they claim that lag kills them more.

    "PC Master Race, bitch!"

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0Mjz6j_CUzA
    I swear they captured me trying to use a bow playing Assassin’s Creed: Odyssey on my Xbox.
     
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  • MushinMushin Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited December 2020
    bbq is open world multi-player.
  • AtamaAtama Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I’m going to be honest, BBQ looks like the kind of game that Ashes wants to be an alternative to.
     
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  • ariatrasariatras Member, Founder
    daveywavey wrote: »
    Jinthul wrote: »
    Where did i write it has to be WoW?!
    I just gave an example. Me to, i don't want a WoW clone!

    Cos you WoB fanboys are all the same! :D Every other flipping thread on here is some WoB fanboy wanting to make this game more like WoB, and it's got so boring that I've taken to calling it World Of Borecraft, now. Whenever I see a thread that doesn't reference WoB, I breathe a sigh of relief! :D:D:D

    Without the WoB reference, your post is essentially: "Combat is important in an MMO". And, Intrepid's team of experienced MMO staff know this already...

    Wow, you're so witty :)

    World of Warcraft will obviously get mentioned considering the impact the game has had on the MMO market. And the fact that it is still the biggest MMO out there. And so, most people have played it.

    Nobody is actually advocating the game to be more like WoW. If we were "fanboys" (because yes, I reference the game) we'd not be here looking for something new.

    There are so many things I'd hate to see copied. However. Looking at WoW like a case-study is not a bad thing.

    A lot of games have come out since, many of them tab-target. And most of them failed, or have a very minimalistic playerbase. Some are held together by whales as the games went free to play.

    One of the issues identified has been the way they handled combat.

    Now, here is where you take WoW as an example, because despite tab targetting being boring, it does help in a world where lag exists. Do I want tab-target? Some skills, sure. But on the whole, nah. Do I want them to look at what makes WoW's combat work as opposed to Star Wars The Old Republic's combat, which is also tab target. Yes. I do.

    So why does it work? Well, WoW's animations, reaction, way of turning fast. The jumping and sub-sequent falling. They all feel very crisp. It doesn't feel sluggish, or over the top. the character's don't look stiff, and this is a good thing in action and tab target combat.

    And whilst the footage we see is early Alpha, those who have witnessed and felt many of these types of combat, can literally feel the rigid controls as we see others play. And that is what most are worried about.

    Do we want WoW 2.0 in the unreal engine? No, do we want Ashes to be the best it can be, and feel as responsive. Yes.
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  • mushin wrote: »
    https://youtu.be/nuIDYE6hxzY

    Project BBQ new trailer, combat and animations look amazing

    Ill be real, this looks like a dragon nest or vindictus clone with prettier graphics and animations. I am absolutely sick of these types of games especially when they restrict your character class to male or female or... ****... and I think ill pass.
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    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
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